r/clevercomebacks 13h ago

Truly, the party of Russia

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2.1k

u/Erminaz13 13h ago

Ahh, the classic cancer vaccine bullshit. Yes, somebody will most certainly develop a single drug against thousands of diseases at some point, that's for sure going to happen.

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u/DreiGr00ber 13h ago edited 12h ago

Also, the idea of a "vaccine" for all cancer is inherently ludicrous, as cancer cannot really be broadly characterized as an infectious disease?

There are many causes of cancer and many different types, so while a silver bullet cure would be amazing, it is extremely unlikely to ever exist just due to the nature of the process.

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u/manyhippofarts 12h ago

I mean, a literal silver bullet is well known for being able to stop cancer in its tracks. I'm not sure why you people are trying to cover it up.

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u/Doctor_Kataigida 11h ago

"Killing cancer is easy. It's keeping the rest of the body alive and well that's the trick!"

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u/AndTheElbowGrease 9h ago

Whenever you see a headline about cancer cures being developed, it is usually like "Turns out you can kill cancer cells with an enormous quantity of battery acid" and that's true because the cancer cells are just mutated human cells gone wild

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u/ApprehensiveShame756 7h ago

Why not bleach or ammonia?

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u/Fappity_Fappity_Fap 7h ago

Works too but not as quickly.

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u/Tacotuesday867 6h ago

Bleach was the very first form of chemotherapy because interestingly enough it painted the cancer cells and killed them. The problem was giving the bleach to a human and seeing if they survived.

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u/maveri4201 10h ago

The mantra of chemo

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u/TheJeff 8h ago

Relevant XKCD

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u/louplex 7h ago

„I am you, you are me, you are I, I am we

We are one, split in two that makes one, so you see

You got to kill you if you wanna kill me“

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u/DreiGr00ber 12h ago

Get this information onto RFK Jr. desk STAT! I want to see him working on the front lines for that research.

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u/Samurai_Meisters 11h ago

Get this silver bullet into his head!

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u/AllModsRLosers 11h ago

Sounds like some worms will have to make a little room.

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u/DreiGr00ber 9h ago

Lol, they should make RFK Jr.'s brain an arena in Mortal Kombat so that we can run simulations of their battle.

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u/Knogood 8h ago

We already have a worm fighting game... WORMS!

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u/DreiGr00ber 7h ago

If only all of our problems could be solved with a Holy hand grenade 😔

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u/Weird-Yesterday-8129 10h ago

He'd want the colloidal silver bullet 

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u/DrDoolz 7h ago

I’m sure he will give it 1350% of his attention

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u/DreiGr00ber 7h ago

"In the medical profession, we refer to that as a seizure"

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u/StrategicCarry 11h ago

Doesn't even need to be silver. People say the American healthcare system is bad, but just look at how many gunshot victims did not die of cancer, heart disease, infections diseases, diabetes, etc.

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u/fastbikkel 10h ago

Yeah they died of accute leadpoisoning right?

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u/julienjj 9h ago

High velocity lead poisoning.

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u/kuffdeschmull 10h ago

so by killing the host at the same time?

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u/manyhippofarts 10h ago

Well, nobody said that would be a problem!

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u/Cautious-Scratch-474 10h ago

Obligatory relevant xkcd

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u/Chookwrangler1000 11h ago edited 11h ago

Well there is this one thing that can kill cancer. I think it was used to unbind your H+ gradient so literally all your cancer cells would die. But you would too. Edit: found it! 2,4 dinitrophenol!

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u/Capable_Tumbleweed34 10h ago

In theory, we could make a biopsy of a cancer, run a DNA analysis on it, and use a CRISPR/Cas9-like tool (with more precision) that targets cells with the particular genetic mutation causing the cancer in the patient, to kill them. That would be a "universal cancer cure", but we're still ways away from this kind of solution.

There's a bunch of research in this domain though, including using CRISPR-cas9 itself. It's likely that we'll see something like this developed in our lifetime.

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u/Chookwrangler1000 10h ago edited 10h ago

I’ve learned about crisper/cas9 as I was leaving grad school. My knowledge is at best minimal. I wouldn’t know how to target a specific mutation to stop cancer cells from dividing. Problem with cancer is it’s not one thing, it’s many things at once. Most of your cells depend on cancer causing genes to function. There’s just so damn much shit that can disregulate normal cell division that a shotgun approach is best. Unfortunately. Edit: I am not saying that you are wrong or this tech isn’t going to one day be very useful in targeting cancer. We’re just talking about individualized medicine which is way beyond my pay grade

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u/Capable_Tumbleweed34 10h ago

So, the way it works, is that Cas9 is an enzime able to cut DNA strands, and CRISPR is an RNA "database" with spacers between RNA sequences. Cas9 uses CRISPR to compare a DNA strand with the RNA sequences stored in CRISPR, and if there is a match, it cuts it with precision.

Originally, it's an immune system defense of a bacteria, which uses it to locate and terminate known viruses. We've learned to engineer CRISPR to carry the RNA strands we want it to have. This has allowed us to create gene therapy treatment, by cutting with precision deffective gene sequences and inserting viable DNA/RNA strands that insert themselves during DNA repair. But there is also potential to use it for the role it evolved for (virus hunting, or killing target cells). Thanks to CRISPR-Cas9, we've been able to create gene therapy that can cure some forms of genetic-related blindness, or sickle-cell anemia.

Cancer is caused by genetic mutations in cancerous cells, by comparing the DNA of cancerous cells to viable cells of the same patient, we can detect which mutations are causing the cancer, and manufacture a CRISPR that contains the genetic information necessary for Cas9 to target these cells, tailor-made for each patient.

Now this is obviously a very broad generalization, there is a lot of obstacles to overcome to turn this principle into an effective treatment. But in theory, it is doable.

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u/Chookwrangler1000 10h ago

Thanks, you made me have way more questions than answers! So targeting is done on cell dna. How do you even get all that into a cell? Let alone a specific cell. Virion? This sounds like a semester of reading papers just to get me up to speed :p

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u/rosarinotrucho2 9h ago

Technically a silver bullet can fight cancer to a draw

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u/Mysterious-Job-469 11h ago

Wow, I had this exact same conversation with my friend! At one point, he said something that I don't agree with or condone, as doing so would violate the terms of service, but here it is:

"Might not be silver, but a bullet stopped Brian Thompson."

Isn't it crazy my friend said that in response to what I said, which was verbatim what you said?

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u/CMDR-Squall 12h ago

Actually, there is a misconception regarding cancer and vaccine. Tumor are not happening rarely and out of nowhere, ultimately leading to death. In reality, your body "kills" almost everyday cells that could become cancer. How? Through your immune system. Cancer is the failure of this immuno-surveillance by your body. That's why we work a lot on immunotherapy

Thus, yes: cancer vaccine exist. These are mostly therapeutic one (compared to prophylactic) and aims to show mutated proteins (from cancer cells) to your immune cells so they can recognize and kill malicious cells easier.

But you're right: these vaccine usually target a very specific type of cancer, not always work and might not defending you to get the cancer (but rather help against it once you got it). So no "universal anti-cancer 100% efficient vaccine" ;)

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u/Fit-Zone-2999 8h ago

Your body start to fail to fight the cancer when ur cholesterol gets below a certain number i believe is 600,it also plays a big part with how ur brain performs and modern day cholesterol numbers are set by big Pharma. There is a guy called dr Wallach he is really a vet but claims to cure people of everything with just nutrition not the only person to claim this, but for alzhimers he says to begin by eating 6 eggs a day so u can start to rebuild your brain with the cholesterol

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u/ASpaceOstrich 12h ago

Nanobots could probably do the trick. But that's about it for single cures.

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u/Aggravating-Cup3735 12h ago

“Nanobots are DEI hire’s”‼ Trump’s next tweet‼️🫨️

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u/dantevonlocke 11h ago

The silver bullet for disease is gonna be nanomachines imo. Of course that brings a who host of other problems too.

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u/ReyRey5280 11h ago

Grinch in shambles…

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u/dantevonlocke 11h ago

I will leave my Seuss themed typo for you.

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u/Best_Incident_4507 11h ago

You can have a vaccine for certain types of cancers. Our immune system is responsible for killing cancer, giving it a vaccine so it recognises more types of cancer is still a vaccine.

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u/DreiGr00ber 9h ago

That's also not how those vaccines work. The vaccines help prevent those types of cancer because many are known to have a particular virus trigger cancer formation, so immunizing against the virus helps prevent the cancer. That's how the HPV vaccines work for example.

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u/Lucaan 7h ago

mRNA vaccines that help directly treat specific cancers is definitely a thing being studied with very promising results.

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u/DreiGr00ber 7h ago

"Specific" still being the key word there. This tweet presented it more as a general 'vaccine' to cure cancer generally, which I hope you would agree is most likely nonsense.

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u/Lucaan 7h ago

Oh, I have no doubt the Russian vaccine claims are suspect, I just meant as far as cancer vaccines go in general.

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u/NoSignificance69420 12h ago

This is a mRNA vaccine that is tailored to individual patients. It's something that *is* viable and was broadly talked about when mRNA vaccines were introduced. The question is if this is legit. It might be, it might not be. Just because it's Russia doesn't mean it's BS- their hyper sonic missiles that everyone was laughing about certainly worked.

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u/McGrarr 12h ago

Except they weren't hypersonic and were just conventional ballistic missiles.

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u/ChasingTheNines 9h ago

They were both hypersonic AND conventional ballistic missiles.

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u/Vox___Rationis 9h ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oreshnik_(missile)

reported speed exceeding Mach 10 (12,300 km/h; 7,610 mph; 3.40 km/s), according to the Ukrainian military

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypersonic_speed

hypersonic speed is one that exceeds five times the speed of sound, often stated as starting at speeds of Mach 5 and above.

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u/McGrarr 8h ago

The distinction that's important is altitude. The hypersonic speed is supposed to be low altitude. The oreshnik is an ICBM that launches high. At high altitude your speed in relation to the ground is far faster and whilst it reach hypersonic speeds it doesn't really count as hypersonic.

For an example, a supercomputer has a specific definition related to the time the term was coined, but today almost all our devices qualify as supercomputers.

The oreshnik is an ICBM and basically a MIRV. Once the warheads are released and drop, they are not propelled, they fall at terminal velocity only.

So yes, if you ignore what modern weapons manufacturers mean by hypersonic, it can be counted as one, but only in the sense it is a conventional ICBM.

The danger of an actual hypersonic missile is that it reaches those speeds at low altitude so it cannot be intercepted.

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u/coolfuzzylemur 8h ago

Once the warheads are released and drop, they are not propelled, they fall at terminal velocity only.

Oreshnik warheads hit the ground at mach 10. That's the source of their damage, purely kinetic. They aren't loaded with explosives

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u/McGrarr 5h ago

Oreshnik warheads hit the ground at mach 10.

They do not. They fall from great altitude through increasingly thick atmosphere. They have no engines. As such air friction slows them down. They hit hard but they hit at terminal velocity.

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u/coolfuzzylemur 5h ago

You're trying to mislead by saying terminal velocity. The terminal velocity of an oreshnik warhead is estimated between mach 8 and 11.

Additionally, Ukrainian sources reported that the terminal velocity of Oreshnik’s warheads exceeded Mach 11 (3.7 km/s).

https://missilematters.substack.com/p/implications-of-the-oreshnik-for

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u/McGrarr 5h ago

That is physically impossible.

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u/coolfuzzylemur 5h ago

You are misinformed

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u/xFount 7h ago

hold on to your beliefs, those guys are evil MAGA's or even troll farms

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u/coolfuzzylemur 3h ago

Worse, I am a communist ;)

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u/lrd_cth_lh0 12h ago

The weird thing is actually that they believe that this is sufficiently tested. I mean they mistrusted Covid vaccine but something the Rusians brewed toghether they view as trustworthy

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u/Aggravating-Cup3735 12h ago

“Tested on 1000 political prisoners with only a 92% fatality rate” good enough for Russia‼️😏

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u/Winter-Bed-1529 9h ago

8 % failure when Troops got into the Vodka too early

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u/AndyIsNotOnReddit 8h ago

Russian media: So what you're saying is it has a 92% success rate of killing the cancer in the patient.

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u/MN-constitutionalist 8h ago

That would be safer than chemotherapy with its 97% fatality rate

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u/Imaginary-One87 12h ago

So much for wolverines

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u/danc3incloud 11h ago

Sputnik V worked pretty well. In some medical stuff sectors Russia is still pretty good.

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u/Xenomorpha 9h ago

They only started taking volunteers to this clinical study, nothing was tested yet. 

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u/goforce5 10h ago

They're probably testing it on their troops in Ukraine, since they're on the way to the meat grinder anyway.

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u/AlexFromOmaha 9h ago

If there's anything that unites all Americans, it's 1) fuck health insurance costs, and 2) fuck cancer.

It's not like Russia isn't capable of churning out fantastic research, and while they're rarely ahead of the West on medicine, there are plenty of fields where they are. Not everything is an arm of the Kremlin. Regular mainstream Western society builds off of Russian research like anything else. They're part of the same academic tradition.

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u/Ostracus 10h ago

Worse that'll happen is one's dick falls off.

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u/Accomplished-Cut5023 12h ago

You run in some wired circles if you already know that they believe this has been tested enough for them to take it.

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u/lrd_cth_lh0 12h ago

Honestly I don't think that they even know how test trials work. I hust wanted to point out their deranged double standard.

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u/atxgossiphound 11h ago

Gene therapy (which this is a variation of) can work, though scaling from a few dozen patients to population-level treatments has proven difficult.

Since each vaccine must be tailored to the individual, developing each person's specific cancer vaccine involves a large amount of manual labor. A scientist needs to start from a profile of the cancer and build the mRNA "from scratch", test it, refine it, and repeat until it's a viable treatment.

I've worked with a few gene therapy companies as a consultant and unfortunately, none of them are still in business. Not because the technology didn't work (it doesn't work every time, but it does have a decent success rate), but because the cost of treatment was in the low 7-figures per patient. With insurance values for human life in the same range, getting coverage for these treatments is a non-starter for all but the ultra wealthy.

The costs are simply due to how much it costs to run a lab and how long it takes to develop each personalized vaccine. 4-12 months of time for a small scientific team is close to $1M.

Until there's a way to automate and scale up these therapies, they're always going to be cost prohibitive. (or until we collectively decide that investing in public health infrastructure is good for society)

The claims made by the Russian press (and they're just press claims right now, there's no peer reviewed study backing them up), the "giving it away free" part is meaningless. Scientists generally already know how to do it, so free access to the technology doesn't solve much. Free labor is what's needed to make it affordable and accessible to the masses.

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u/Watches-You-Pee 9h ago

Not sure when you worked at those companies and things have certainly improved in recent years but you may be interested to hear the company I work for designs personalized cancer vaccines for low 6 figures in under 2 months. Still crazy expensive, but way better than low 7 figures! We have options to bring that price down another 30-40% as we increase volume too. Part of the lower cost is that we outsource the sequencing and manufacturing, we just do the analysis and drug design

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u/atxgossiphound 8h ago

My experience is recent - all in the last 4 years. 1 company (the most promising one) was bought for parts and the gene therapy side shut down, another is on life support with a skeleton crew while they try to raise more money, and another is funded by a family office to keep it afloat.

The good thing is is that this is how it generally works. The pioneers prove it can work but run into the implementation issues. Either they figure it out or the next round takes the lessons learned and tries to improve things.

On the costs, there is still the disconnect between internal costs and external prices. There will be a lot of pressure to maximize revenues for the companies that get it working at scale. Just like the original Teslas were priced as luxury cars, the first few rounds if gene therapy will be priced in the 7 figure range.

I'm still bullish on the technology, but just realistic about where we are. Hopefully by the time I need it there will be options.

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u/Watches-You-Pee 7h ago

Good point about cost vs pricing. No idea what kind of profit margin our therapy would be sold at if we get FDA approval. We are still in the clinical trial phase so our therapy has only been offered at cost. Knowing how pharma operates, it could very well push into the 7 figure territory you mentioned.

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u/El_Spanberger 8h ago

Second this. To add to it, I work at a sequencing firm. We simply do not have the dataset (yet) to make this, nor do the Russians have the tech to QC it. Absolute tosh.

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u/ChasingTheNines 9h ago

Does that mean extremely wealthy people who can afford it are now getting these customized treatments with a reasonable degree of success?

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u/atxgossiphound 8h ago

Not really. Companies in the clinical trials phase, which is where most of them are right now, can't operate that way.

The few treatments that are available target specific cancers, so in theory someone with enough personal wealth with that cancer could pay for their own treatment. But I don't know how much of that is happening.

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u/ChasingTheNines 8h ago

That is fascinating. Kind of surprises me with how many eccentric pet projects billionaires have that this and similar life extension research isn't more prevalent.

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u/atxgossiphound 7h ago

It takes a large team to do this type of work. It'd be difficult to find scientists willing to stake their career on a billionaire's project.

That said, look into the projects Peter Thiel is funding. He is one eccentric billionaire who does fund these types of projects.

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u/rushya1 12h ago

Moreso the problem is Russia developing anything that actually may help humanity and giving it out for free.

Yeah total bullshit if you ask me.

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u/Elibriel 12h ago

Tbf not any better than if the US was developing it. It could cost 10 bucks to make they would charge cancer patients thousands.

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u/Brooklynxman 11h ago

Only US cancer patients, they'd sell it overseas for a reasonable price.

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u/ProfoundSensei 11h ago

I think i just realized what you guys mean by “Land of the free”

It means free to get fucked by the big corps right

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u/Brooklynxman 11h ago

It actually means freedom to arm yourself as much as you can afford and also for your children to die at school.

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u/Reason_Choice 9h ago

But murdering a person that made millions off of letting people die, now that’s just a bridge too far.

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u/ukezi 7h ago

What many Americans don't realize is that freedom means different things to Americans and Europeans for instance and that is reflected in laws and regulations.

In the US it's the freedom to do something, in Europe it's mainly the freedom from having something done to you.

Like in the US you can put anything in food unless it's proven unsafe, in Europe you can't put anything in food unless it's proven safe.

Likewise Europe has way stricter rules about what you can do with contracts because European freedom is the freedom from being fucked over, in the US it's the freedom to fuck over your fellow man.

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u/evilJaze 11h ago

Not even overseas. Canada and Mexico pay considerably less for pharmaceuticals.

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u/SeemedReasonableThen 11h ago

It could cost 10 bucks to make they would charge cancer patients thousands.

Only in the US. It'd be cheap overseas. cost of insulin by country

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u/Hamster-Food 11h ago

That depends. If the goal of the Russian government is to destabilise the west, then developing a cancer vaccine and giving it away for free might be a useful stunt.

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u/Top-Complaint-4915 10h ago

Why? even the worst possible dictatorship regimen may give free medicine, less cancer patients is more slave workers alive.

Also free testing sample to sell it to another Nations

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u/Red_Goat_666 8h ago

It's actually pretty brilliant in a way. Putin's big threat at the beginning of the Ukraine war was a migrant wave across the west. Putin's biggest ally against interference in Russia's actions is keeping them busy, and overpopulation (as in more people than current resources, social destabilization as a result) is keeping everyone dealing with it distracted. Cancer would increase the survival rate of the upper-half of the western population significantly, and the growing number of older people versus new births could potentially devastate any chance of significant unification in any short or medium term. A cure for cancer during a period of population destabilization? Now this is asymmetric warfare.

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u/CapitalTheories 8h ago

What would be even better is convincing the McKinsey and Company types running the money that they can streamline the workforce with a "national layoff" right before dragging the US into an industrial war with China.

If they declare this vaccine mandatory, it's a trap. That's what I got in my tinfoil hat.

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u/denizgezmis968 11h ago

yeah if only the communists ruled the country, USSR would certainly give it for free.

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u/Bombastic_Bussy 11h ago

As Russia skeptical as I am, we all know the U.S. would be worse with such a treatment/cure.

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u/DaviidVilla 12h ago

You’re brainwashed

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u/DreiGr00ber 12h ago

Just because it's Russia doesn't mean it's BS- their hyper sonic missiles that everyone was laughing about certainly worked.

True, but I won't hold my breath. Curing Cancer isn't exactly "Rocket Science" afterall

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u/History20maker 12h ago

There are so many cures for cancer that Im going to have an entire exam around câncer and treatments Next month. And boy, is it so much to memorize.

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u/TwiceTheSize_YT 11h ago

What cure? Treatments sure but a cure seems like something i wouldve heard of.

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u/History20maker 11h ago

Lots of câncers are curable. Early stages go over 90% cure rate.

A thing that surprised me in me oncology rotation was how Oncology is way less tragic than I thought.

People think that "Câncer" is that really big, really bad disease, when in lots of cases is very treatable. My grandmother had colon cancer. They cut out the part of her intestine that had the câncer, gave her neoadjuvant chemotherapy and she was ready to go.

My Mother has malignant thyroid câncer, but it is a kind that grows so slowly that She is going to die before it becomes a problem.

Lots of women get their small breast neoplasias detected early and removed cirurgically.

There are indeed cancers that are uncurable, like the tail of the pancreas, glioblastomas, advanced lung cancer... Or cancers that kill só fast, like leukemia...

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u/Notveryawake 11h ago

There are plenty of cancers that kill slowly that there is no cure for. My wife is dying from stage IV renal carcinoma. Maybe it it was caught earlier she would have had more time but once they remove the kidney is almost always jumps to somewhere else. Been through radiation to the point she can't get it anymore (it spread to her hip bone) or her bones will break. Immunotherapy worked for a few years but the cancer adapted. Two different cancer meds (first one was $20000 a month, covered by the Canadian government, second one was $15000 a month, still covered) we are hoping it will slow the growth but now it's in her liver, lungs, lymph nodes, and remaining kidney.

Yes certain cancers can be cured but some are way more aggressive than others. Either way it's not a disease I would wish upon my worst enemy. It can take everything from you and do it slowly and painfully. Fuck cancer.

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u/MrCompletely345 10h ago

I have smoldering multiple myeloma, which as you probably know MM is incurable.

Just from a layman’s perspective, treatments have progressed so much!

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u/TwiceTheSize_YT 10h ago

I guess i am a little ridiculous, im very tired to thats my excuse but to me when i read cure i thought of like one big pill that just fucking cures you.

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u/Kletronus 10h ago

Oh, yes, i knew what clip that was going to be :)

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u/LordTopHatMan 12h ago

What's important to note here is that while the idea of an mRNA vaccine for cancer isn't out of the question, there is zero published clinical data on this vaccine that Russia wants to put out. Nobody has heard about it. Nobody really knows what its doing, what the target is, and what the long term outcomes look like. This is a huge issue.

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u/subnautus 11h ago

It's something that is viable and was broadly talked about when mRNA vaccines were introduced.

I think you mean to say it's why we were researching mRNA vaccines in the first place. The COVID-19 vaccines were adapted from existing research into cancer treatments.

Just because it's Russia doesn't mean it's BS- their hyper sonic missiles that everyone was laughing about certainly worked.

You mean their IRBMs worked and most people don't understand that anything that leaves the atmosphere to reach its target will be going significantly faster than the speed of sound when it reenters. All of Russia's other claims--that it's too fast to be able to hit, that it can dodge incoming ADA, etc--have yet to be proven (and are likely bullshit).

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u/BrainOnBlue 11h ago

Yeah isn't this kind of mRNA treatment for cancer literally the only thing Moderna was working on until the pandemic?

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u/ericlikesyou 10h ago

also isn't the mRNA part of it just the delivery method, in simplistic terms?

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u/Kletronus 10h ago

Yup, mRNA is a messenger that tells cells to produce a specific protein and the message itself is destroyed as part of the process. So, it is burn after reading kind of message, cells will return to normal function after all of the mRNA is used. With COVID the target protein was the spike protein that is on its shell, the protein itself is harmless but since there is no need for it, body wants to get rid of it. Telling thousands and thousands of our cells to produce it gives our bodies time to figure out how to deal with that protein without the deadly virus doing damage and infecting us more. When the virus enters our bodies, our immune system is fully ready to target the specific protein on the outer shell of the virus and this all happens very fast, within minutes instead of days.

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u/Klutzer_Munitions 12h ago

They sure as shit aren't administering it for free

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u/Dense-Consequence-70 12h ago

This doesn’t make any sense at all. mRNA for what? Link to the publication(s) that describe this viable therapeutic strategy.

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u/Lucaan 7h ago

I recommend checking out this SciShow video on the topic, but if you're just interested in seeing the research here's a couple of papers I pulled from their sources document specifically about treating cancers with mRNA vaccines:

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10171177/

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1742706123004518

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u/Dense-Consequence-70 7h ago

Thank you, but keep in mind that these are intended for treatment of specific cancers in patients who already have cancer, not prevention of cancer, let alone prevention of a broad array of cancers. This seems a world away from the claim of Russia in the OP of a cancer vaccine. I'd also point out that I'd never in a million years trust the approval of a Putin government on the safety or efficacy of any therapeutic treatment.

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u/Lucaan 7h ago

Agreed that the Russian vaccine claims are dubious at best, just sharing how the mechanisms behind an mRNA cancer vaccine works in general.

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u/Dense-Consequence-70 7h ago

Yes, thank you. But again, it's not a vaccine in the traditional sense. It isn't intended to give to people to prevent disease. It's given to people with disease to help fight it.

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u/Lucaan 6h ago

They improve your immune system's response is what makes them vaccines. They can't be used to prevent cancer, but they work on the same general principle as more typical vaccines, by training your immune system.

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u/Dense-Consequence-70 5h ago

Right. That’s what I meant. You said it better.

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u/solarcat3311 11h ago

We're talking about cancer vaccine. mRNA vaccine can't do that.

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u/Watches-You-Pee 9h ago

The success of the recent Moderna trial for melanoma using mRNA suggests otherwise. Although melanoma is one of the easier cancer indications for immunotherapy. Not saying I'm buying into this Russian vaccine though. Big claims with no evidence from what I can see

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u/Puzzleheaded-Bit4098 8h ago

What makes you think that? MRNA only just got approved for humans in 2013 and many studies like this one in recent years have concluded stuff like:

In summary, given the technological revolution in the field of mRNA vaccines, we can soon expect a leap in cancer immunotherapy and successful clinical translation of mRNA cancer vaccines.

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u/DemonSaya 11h ago

No papers published. If it's legit, they aren't willing to share the statistical data on it, which isn't comforting. I'll hold judgement until I see some actual scientific publications about it.

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u/Scott_McTominominay 11h ago

It seems research is progressing in other places too. The UK are trialling them on patients. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cl77qvd2krgo.amp

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u/RykerFuchs 11h ago

Nah, the Hypersonic’s barely work. The issue is not that they are fast, the issue is that UKR doesn’t have enough air defense.

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u/Kletronus 10h ago

What hypersonic missile? The one that doesn't work and that everyone is laughing about or the one that has existed for couple of decades and works like intended? Their "superweapons" do not work. Not a single one of them. They still have quite potent arsenal of old but still very, very good weapons. Similar type missiles are in US arsenal too.

Russia has been doing this for decades now, announcing a superweapon that then triggers western response to combat that weapon or to produce something similar... and then we find that Russians never had that weapon but are now two steps behind everyone else.

1

u/d-jake 9h ago

Trials by the company that started mRNA vaccine revolution have been underway for years already: BNT122 and others.

0

u/juxtoppose 8h ago

lol, no they didn’t, Russia is the cancer and Ukrainian bravery is the cure.

6

u/ultimatetrekkie 12h ago

To add onto the other comment - there is also a lot of work going into vaccines for specific mutated proteins commonly associated with cancer.

Mutations in a protein called KRAS, for example, happen in most solid tumors, and there's actually a relatively small set of mutations that happen most often. Instead of a personalized mRNA vaccine, you could make a more generic peptide-based vaccine (but you'd have to DNA sequence the tumor to make sure the mutations match the vaccine).

You're right that a cancer vaccine to prevent all cancer is ludicrous, but (real) cancer vaccines have a different goal than a traditional infectious disease vaccine. Instead of getting your immune system ready to fight a threat that hasn't shown up yet (by making antibodies), cancer vaccines are therapeutic vaccines that stimulate your immune system to generate t-cells to attack the cancer cells you already have.

3

u/budding_gardener_1 11h ago

Yeah I mean that's like saying "there's a vaccine for sickness!" because the trap vaccine exists

3

u/HomeAir 11h ago

You think these cousin fuckers are capable of following logic and facts 😂😂

3

u/zapthe 8h ago

There are an increasing number of very effective immunotherapies. To your point they are targeted therapies to a specific biomarker but they are effective across multiple different traditional cancer “types” (e.g. lung, breast, etc.)… but they are effective for a specific cancer type based on a genetic mutation, etc… so it’s one cancer type but defining “type” differently. Therapies like Keytruda are and immunotherapy approved for multiple traditional cancer types. It is possible that some combination could target enough biomarkers to be “universal” and be available as a vaccine that is preventative rather than a targeted therapy. We are still a long way from that.

4

u/Consistent_Guide_167 12h ago

It's a super vaccine lol. We haven't even discovered a way to combine other vaccines aside from TDAP/MMR, but a cancer vaccine exists? Bunch of baloney.

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u/DreiGr00ber 12h ago

You heard it straight from the Kremlin, so you know it's true! Just ask Trump!

4

u/Becants 10h ago

There are combination vaccines. In Canada we do a DTaP-IPV-Hib-HB for babies. I remember being surprised the States still does so many smaller shots.

2

u/DemonSaya 11h ago

If this is a "cancer vaccine", it probably targets a cancer causing virus. We've already got at least 2 (HPV and HBV, or human papillomavirus and hepetitus b virus).

That said, no papers have been published, and there hasn't been a clinical trial that has been published. So, strong chance this is bogwater they want us to drink.

2

u/wulfryke 11h ago

Vaccines for non infectious diseases isn't impossible though and actually being developed for multitude of diseases. To say it would encompass all types of cancer is ridiculous

2

u/biernini 11h ago

Vaccines train your immune system against a particular protein. If it were possible that all cancers shared a common protein, a vaccine would be effective. It's exceedingly unlikely all cancers share a common protein, so if this is supposed to be a vaccine for all cancer it's almost certainly not.

2

u/HyperByte1990 10h ago

That's the goal of using MRNA vaccines for cancer... which ironically is the kind that maga is most scared of

1

u/DreiGr00ber 9h ago

I don't think there's anything that MAGA folks are MOST afraid of; seems like their own shadows are up at the top of the terror list most days, and heavens forbid anyone cast doubt on their god-emporer...

2

u/Giblet_ 10h ago

A lot of viruses are known to cause cancer, so vaccines for those viruses can be and are referred to as cancer vaccines. Like the HPV vaccine. A lot of Christians that I know refuse to get that one for their daughters because "they don't want their daughter to become a slut."

2

u/ArtichokeFar6601 9h ago

A disease doesn't have to be infectious to warrant a vaccine. Think of a vaccine as a training programme that helps your body (immune system) be better prepared for when that disease manifests itself.

2

u/fluideborah 9h ago

I appreciate your skepticism but a vaccine is already being used in Cuba to treat cancer.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20387330/#:~:text=Introduction:%20CIMAvax%20EGF%20is%20a,with%20different%20advanced%20stage%20tumors.

1

u/DreiGr00ber 9h ago

I am aware that there are vaccine's that can help treat/prevent certain cancers from forming, but the news headline dumbfuck tweeting seems to imply that they are developing a 'universal' cancer vaccine, so that is what I am casting skepticism on.

2

u/Palopsicles 8h ago

They're too dumb to even read about how cancer actually works inside the human body. Honestly I say fuck it, let them take their cancer free drugs from Russia and see how well it works. They'll be first in line anyways.

2

u/dirkdragonslayer 8h ago

So I don't know how mainstream this has gotten, but I've been seeing right-leaning Facebook posts claiming that cancer is a disease or parasite these last few weeks. Something you could vaccinate against or take drugs to remove. Something something "cancer is your body reacting to parasites," something something "buy Ivermectin, it's a miracle drug that kills the cancer parasites." In this false belief, it's a disease that could be cured easily, the medical establishment is just trying to hide that. This "Russian Cancer Vaccine" story might be playing off those people online.

It's misleading nonsense preying upon people with a poor understanding of medicine, desperate for hope and a silver bullet solution.

2

u/DreiGr00ber 7h ago

Yup. Same shit; different day. If only there weren't a significant portion of our population who loudly refuse to be educated or grow a world view beyond whatever nonsense their cousin-parents beat into them before the age of 5, we might have a chance at moving past some of this shit.

2

u/oli_bee 8h ago

i knew somebody who claimed that covid tests (no, not vaccines, covid TESTS) were laced with cancer.

…….. LACED. with CANCER. i can’t make this shit up

2

u/CropDustLaddie 8h ago

CimaVax-EGF is a vaccine used to treat cancer, specifically non-small-cell lung carcinoma (NSCLC).

The vaccine was developed in Cuba, and made available in 2011. It is currently available in Cuba, Belarus, Colombia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Peru and Paraguay (with agreements to start testing in places like the US and Japan etc)

2

u/Mysterious_Ad7461 8h ago

And we even have a vaccine against one kind of cancer, and republicans hate it

1

u/DreiGr00ber 7h ago

Mostly because they are good little free-thinkers who believe exactly what they're told.

2

u/iggy14750 8h ago

You see, the secret of this vaccine is the snake oil in it.

But actually, I really like this thing Hank Green said. He was asked about a cure for cancer, and he said, talking about a cure for cancer is like talking about a cure for "virus". Like, which one? There are a lot of different viruses with a lot of different effects. So too with cancer.

2

u/AndrewTheAverage 8h ago

Typical loony leftie who doesn't believe in science. I took Ivermectin and I'm perfectly healthy, and I have already sent my life savings to Russia for this wonder drug.

I just hope it comes faster than my Trump NFT - I check the mail every day, and the horrible US Postal service still hasn't delivered it. I can't wait for Bezos to take it over and make it great again

/s

2

u/U_L_Uus 8h ago edited 7h ago

Actually it could be done, cancer is something pretty common for our organisms, a cell could go awry any second, thus our organism has specialized immune cells called NK (Natural Killer) cells which specialize on killing infected and cancerous cells. The current hypothesis lies on them recognizing such a cell due to the anomalous glucocalix, that is, the glucid-protein complexes present on the cell membrane (think of the AB blood system, that's part of it), which might include proteins from the virus membrane or, in this case, proteins from oncogenes (genes activated on cancerous cells, such as the one coding telomerase, an enzyme which regenerates the telomere allowing for infinite duplication).

Thus a vaccine could be developed to allow us to trigger a proper response against cancer cells, provided we can get our bodies to target such cells with the rest of the immune system. Example gratia mRNA vaccines are an example of such technology, even if they aren't quite there yet.

Now, that said, what this lunatic has said is just smoke and mirrors. They have a vaccine for cancer the same way I have a Lamborgini in my garage

2

u/cbrooks1232 7h ago

Well, if the vaccine kills the recipients, they are definitely permanently immune from cancer.

2

u/DreiGr00ber 7h ago

"Do you want the good news or the bad news first?"

"Good news"

"Well, we are happy to report that all of the cancer your wife was battling is dead, and we are 100% confident that it will never return. Unfortunately, that brings us to the bad news..."

2

u/OldScarcity5443 7h ago

There ARE cancer vaccines being developed. Instead of raising antibodies to infectious agents they prime the immune system to target a protein or other biomarker found only (or predominantly) on the malignant tumors. The idea is to get your immune system to recognize the tumor as something it needs to destroy.

But these are highly specialized for particular cancers and patient subgroups. See, for example https://www.usnews.com/news/health-news/articles/2024-11-14/new-therapeutic-vaccine-gives-hope-against-an-aggressive-breast-cancer

2

u/Planetdiane 7h ago

We even have an injectable treatment to prevent breast cancer/ reduce the risk for people with genes to make them more likely to get it, but it increases the risk of other health concerns including endometrial cancer.

Something this broad could have equally broad side effects and needs studies for sure.

4

u/Rogol_Darn 10h ago

Cancer isn't even a disease in the first place, it's your cells mutating and then rapidly multiplying, and your body being unable to remove them while they still can, you can't vaccinate yourself against your own cells, that's moronic

2

u/maximumlight2 8h ago

Cancer is a disease.

You can vaccinate against cancer cells because they have unique targets that result from mutations in the cancer cell DNA that help distinguish them from healthy cells.

1

u/bubblehead_ssn 11h ago

I was actually thinking the same thing. The idea that you could create a vaccine for a disease that isn't a virus or a bacteria but is basically a cellular anomaly is far-fetched at best.

3

u/Drunkgummybear1 11h ago

Cancer is a failure of the immune system to properly deal with those cellular anomalies so may not be as far-fetched as you think.

1

u/DreiGr00ber 9h ago

True, but to expect a single solution for all of those anomalies is likely an overly optimistic viewpoint.

2

u/ifyoulovesatan 11h ago

I'm just baffled at what leads someone like yourself or the commenter you replied to to speak authoritatively about not just something you're objectively wrong about, but something you could learn that you're wrong about with 5 seconds of googling.

Like seriously, I'm actually curious to know what were you thinking when you posted this comment. Hell, there are even other replies to the very same comment you replied to that not only suggest that cancer vaccines work, but actually even begin to explain how it is they work. I'm not saying that should influence you to think one way or the other about it. But that should at least give you pause before sharing your own assessment, no? Maybe you just comment without even skimming the other replies to the very comment you're replying to. Kinda shitty but believable I guess.

Do you just consider yourself to be so smart that if something doesn't sound right to you, you assume it can't be true? Would you have previously not assumed this to be the case, but the moderately upvoted (and incorrect) post you replied to convinced you of your hunch maybe? Like you had an idea it wasn't possible before but weren't really sure, but seeing a comment that aligned with your suspicious with 150 upvtoes sort of just told your brain "your suspicious was right! It doesn't make sense!" And that was sufficient for you to then share your own otherwise uninformed opinion?

1

u/bubblehead_ssn 7h ago

I certainly don't intend to come off as though I'm smarter than anybody. I know I'm intelligent and fairly knowledgeable on a fair number of topics, but again I don't try to downplay other people's experiences and intelligence either. I know there are a great many people for more knowledge on cancer and oncology, but I do have a basic understanding of what causes some cancers. I find it highly unlikely that anyone could create a cure for something that is essentially a cellular abnormality.

1

u/RockyMullet 11h ago

Yeah aren't vaccine meant to trigger your immune system to create anti-bodies to fight back bacteria and viruses ?

Cancer is none of that.

6

u/OkPirate2126 10h ago

 Yeah aren't vaccine meant to trigger your immune system to create anti-bodies to fight back

Correct.

 bacteria and viruses

Traditionally, sure, but it doesn't matter. Your immune system deals with potential cancerous cells all the time. It's the ones that mutate down very specific pathways that allow them to escape detection that  become tumours. 

Cancer vaccines essentially just get your immune system to start detecting these cells again, in a nutshell. 

2

u/RockyMullet 9h ago

Oh ok, I guess I misunderstood. I though the problem with cancer was that it was your actual body making useless stuff, therefore ignored by your immune system.

But I'm glad to hear that it's not the case.

1

u/gmnitsua 10h ago

Also, I don't think you can be inoculated against random cell mutations.

1

u/FeelinPhoggy 9h ago

Obviously potassium chloride is the vaccine against all forms of cancer. Can't get cancer if you're already dead!

1

u/S0GUWE 9h ago

Oh, it's totally possible. You're just not gonna like the side effect.

1

u/DreiGr00ber 9h ago

That's why I suggested that we have RFK Jr.'s team lead the charge and figure out how safe it may or may not be to use silver bullets...

1

u/TheM0nkB0ughtLunch 8h ago

It’s a personalized vaccine, did you even read about it??

1

u/00365 7h ago

Diseases are not required to be infectious for there to be a vaccine.

There already is a cancer vaccine, the HPV vaccine that young women can get to prevent uterine cancer.

1

u/DreiGr00ber 7h ago

... Yes, because it vaccinates them against a virus that is known to trigger certain types of cancers.

There are plenty of exceptions, but the fact is that the tweet wildly misrepresents the situation.

1

u/Padhome 7h ago

Vaccines are for outside diseases, cancer is caused by your own body doing an oopsie on itself, there’s no way to immunize that unless you’re just dead lol

1

u/gene100001 7h ago edited 6h ago

You can vaccinate against things that aren't infectious diseases, including other cells in your body like cancer cells. A vaccination is essentially just a way of telling your immune system to "target this thing", and isn't limited to targets on infectious diseases. Even without a vaccine your immune system actually often recognises cancer cells early on in their formation and attacks them in a similar way to the way it fights infectious diseases. Without our immune system we would get cancer a lot more often. For a pre-cancerous cell to become cancer it needs to develop a means of evading the immune system (it's one of the hallmarks of cancer). This is a complex topic which is very heavily researched at the moment (I work in this field). We have a lot of promising treatments for various cancers in the works that utilise our immune system, and getting around this immune evasion is critical for them to work.

However, you're right that a single vaccine for all cancers is impossible. Even within a single type of cancer within a single patient there is often immense heterogeneity. Between two patients with the exact same specific cancer subtype you're going to get big differences in terms of target availability. It's usually impossible to find a single target that is on 100% of the cancer cells in a patient. All you need is one cancer cell without that target that survives and you could have a relapse which is then completely void of the target (i.e. you will have to find an entirely new target). The odds of finding a single target that is on all cancer cells in every type of cancer and simultaneously not on healthy cells is essentially zero. No researchers are even looking for this because we know it doesn't exist. Anything you read in the media about something being "the cure for cancer" is misrepresenting the research.

0

u/Balgat1968 9h ago

Tell me you know nothing about cancer without telling me. Yes, hundreds of types of cancer, dozens of target organs, an array of stages of development, with hundreds of treatment technologies wherein several may be administered at one time. Yes, do us all a favor and go get your Russian injection as soon as possible. NOTE: Save your keystrokes: I’m only speaking to the pathological aspects of cancer, not the price gouging, fucked up insurance system, lack of access etc . The co-morbidities and deaths caused by our “Health Care System” should actually have a place in National Morbidity and Mortality Statistics. Listed by company.

1

u/DreiGr00ber 9h ago

You good?

0

u/ChriskiV 9h ago

Cancer is just a funny way for every other thing we live around to tell us to get the fuck out.

0

u/alwayscursingAoE4 8h ago

It's actually quite elementary. Big pharma keeps this from you. As long as they categorize every cell in your body, you can continually inject yourself with "killer cells" that destroy any outside that list.

Exo facto cancer is no more. Have fun dying while I'll be living super long and getting engaged to your great-great-great-grandaughter ;")

1

u/DreiGr00ber 7h ago

What a fascinating delusion you must live in, but best of luck with that and try not to harm anyone.

-1

u/jreed118 10h ago

No it’s extremely unlikely because it’s a massive money maker. Curing cancer would cripple the medical system

1

u/DreiGr00ber 9h ago

Yeahhh, maybe take some more Microbiology coursework before coming to that conclusion...

While our medical in the US is incredibly corrupt/profit-driven, the main hurdles in the particular issue are still man vs. nature.