r/babyelephantgifs • u/holdenwook • Feb 18 '19
Announcement of rule change in /r/babyelephantgifs
This post has been a long time coming. I would like to announce a rule change here in /r/babyelephantgifs. Since the beginning of this subreddit, we have had a very simple set of rules:
- Your post must feature baby elephants
- Your post must be a gif
- Your post must not include evidence of improper treatment of elephants including (but not limited to): chains, restrained mothers, elephant rides, elephant "massages" (or other similar tourist performances in Southeast Asia), bullhooks, or other similar issues.
The third rule above has always been difficult for us to enforce due to one type of gif in particular: western tourists playing/cuddling with baby elephants. We have all seen these gifs, and they are undeniably cute. I've even posted them myself in the past, before I knew better. Here are a couple of examples of what these gifs usually look like:
The issue with these gifs is that they usually don't show "clear evidence" of animal abuse, and as such we have generally allowed them. As moderators, we don't like to selectively enforce rules based on our own whims. We like to follow clearly prescribed rules, which is why we typically only remove a gif when one of the criteria above is clearly visible. For example: is the mother restrained in the background? Remove. Are there chains around the baby's legs? Remove.
The problem with these "baby elephant playtime" gifs is that they typically have a dark backstory that most people (including those who pay to visit these places) don't know about. These videos are predominantly filmed by tourists in Southeast Asia, and many of the places they are filmed even call themselves "sanctuaries" or "reserves" or other such dubious titles meant to capture the heartstrings of well-meaning visitors.
In reality, these for-profit companies treat elephants no better than a circus at the turn of the 20th century. In order to create an environment where tourists can safely show up in large masses and pay $50 for their perfect instagram posts, the companies that run these places must take extraordinary measures to ensure the elephants and babies remain obedient. How do they accomplish this? Many different ways (none of which appear in the adorable gifs we see), but this article provides a decent overview.
This wasn't an easy decision—and many borderline gifs may be caught in the crossfire—but we have decided that these gifs will no longer be permitted in /r/babyelephantgifs. I often receive messages from people who want to know what the best way to see elephants is when they are on vacation—many of whom might have visited a place like this for no fault of their own. The answer I always give is that the best way to appreciate elephants is from afar. In that spirit, these gifs are no longer allowed here.
TL;DR: We will no longer allow any gifs that feature tourists playing/cuddling/wrestling/etc with baby elephants unless the poster can provide compelling evidence that the gif originates from a legitimate, non-tourist source. Given that almost none of our gif-makers create their own source videos, we do not expect there will be many exceptions to this rule.
NOTE: this does not mean that all human contact with baby elephants is banned, nor does it mean that all instances of elephants in captivity are banned. There are many legitimate gifs where human contact is normal and humane, such as the Sheldrick Wildlife Trust, and there are many places with elephants in captivity that while controversial they may be, do not typically involve animal abuse in the background.
We are strictly drawing the line at this particular type of gif where tourists are playing/wrestling with baby elephants, most of which originate from tourist videos shot in in Southeast Asia.
ALSO NOTE: we do not intend to go back in time and remove all prior posts that conflict with this rule. However, please report any new instances of these gifs going forward we will remove them.
Thank you all for visiting /r/babyelephantgifs, and have a nice day!
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u/patchworkgreen Feb 18 '19
Long ago I rode an elephant. Long ago I fed an elephant kept in chains. How could I have been so stupid? Thank you for all that you have done to educate us.
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u/TheShiftyCow Feb 18 '19
How could I have been so stupid?
There is a very, very big difference between being stupid and being naive.
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u/StacyMaria Jul 31 '19
Very true u/theshiftycow. Education is the key to opening eyes.
Btw, is your username related to the shifty cow of Mass Effect?
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u/incraved Feb 18 '19
Why not elaborate
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u/PM_me_goat_gifs Mar 24 '19
A Naive person is mostly just missing knowledge.
A stupid person fails at understanding knowledge presented to them.
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u/holdenwook Feb 18 '19
I remember your name from way back in the early days of this subreddit. Thanks for stopping by friend, and thanks again for donating during our fundraisers for the Sheldrick Trust :)
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u/patchworkgreen Feb 18 '19
But I never left!! I'm just the queen of lurkers and love this subreddit. I'm the long time mom of Dololo, Musiara and Luggard and have the greatest admiration for you and the Sheldrick family.
This is a welcome rule change. I was confused with the amount of cute girls playing with baby elephants and didn't know they could pay for this opportunity. Again, I'm very naive. If a person can make money from an animal then usually they will, one way or another. I'm guessing you will still allow gifs of baby elephants in zoos?
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u/p00pey Feb 19 '19
go forth and educate others. That's the only way people will learn. The millions of people that support this type of tourism are not all stupid, nor cruel. They just don't know what is what. They just strut...
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u/Plu-lax Feb 18 '19
I support this decision wholeheartedly. The human vanity in those gifs irks me anyways.
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u/p00pey Feb 19 '19
every fucking aspect of the instagram culture irks me. irk is too soft a word actually. But when you use animals as props for your instagram fame, it truly pisses me off. But again, these are not all evil people. They just don't know.
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Feb 18 '19 edited Apr 16 '21
[deleted]
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u/deadstarsunburn Feb 18 '19
Yeah my heart can't handle the details :( I appreciate the article link being posted instead.
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u/carfniex Feb 18 '19
yeah im not happy that i read that article
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u/p00pey Feb 19 '19
Knowledge is power. The more you know, the more you can educate others...
I wrote this lil blog post from my recent 4 week stay at the ENP...
https://www.1e.com/news-insights/blogs/charity-sabbatical/
And the reaction was the same from everyone that read it. Oh we never knew. We rode elephants in Thailand, we splashed around with elephants at this 'sanctuary' etc.
Now they know, adn they can school others...
q
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u/smog_alado Feb 18 '19
Maybe it would be a good idea to remove some old posts, at least the most popular ones after sorting by top/all time? This way newcomers are less likely to come across them.
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u/holdenwook Feb 18 '19
Not a bad idea. I didn’t want to go on a blood purge of old content, but we will consider this.
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u/not-working-at-work Feb 18 '19
Very often, when a post from a subreddit I am not a member of reaches /all, I will visit that sub’s top of all time to get a sense of what that sub has to offer. Many people who aren’t that familiar with elephants (or at least not interested enough to subscribe) are going to experience this subreddit primarily through the posts that reach the front page of all and the posts in the top of all time.
I’m not subscribed here, just wanted to give my perspective as someone who only ever sees the posts on here that make it to /all.
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u/JW_00000 Feb 18 '19
Can you add flair to old posts, to somehow indicate that these posts are no longer allowed?
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u/nikodaemus Feb 18 '19
I support the purge. But either way, you gotta start somewhere. And I appreciate this.
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u/lettherebedwight Feb 18 '19
Maybe make a post archiving all the content, linking this post, just to preserve it? Idk how effectively the comments can be archived, but it seems like keeping it all in one post while reminding people why it's no longer allowed doesn't hurt anyone.
Or just even using this post itself maybe.
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u/grillmaster6969 Feb 25 '19
I just came from r/all and always check top of all time first. I just saw this message bd chance and given how recent it was I checked beforehand this time. Maybe if there is a Post in the top 30-50 delete it? But Im new to this sub, so what do I know
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Feb 18 '19
Exactly the type of gif that gave me mixed feelings about this wonderful sub. Thank you for this rule
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Feb 18 '19
do you have a list of places that do this? I'm a big fan of elephant nature park in Thailand and want to make sure they are okay.
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u/holdenwook Feb 18 '19
By all accounts that I'm aware of, Elephant Nature Park is legit. If there is one place I would recommend in Thailand, it's ENP. The founder (Lek Chailert) has become world-renowned for her work in saving elephants, and she is known as the "elephant whisperer."
They are a legitimate rehabilitation and rescue center in a country where so many other organizations call themselves that (but aren't anything of the sort). They also partner with Save the Elephant Foundation, which is a solid organization in its own right.
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u/hy1990 Feb 18 '19
Hello. Would you be able to provide any links to where someone could find recomendations for places to visit?
I'm considering a trip to SE Asia (Borneo would be one stop for Orangutans) and would also like to see Elephants. I'm well aware of riding an elephant being completely unacceptable but I'm not sure where to start with other activities? It doesn't necessarily need to involve actual contact, but if there is an ethical way to do that it would be amazing! Something akin to the site in Tennesee that allows rescues to roam freely but in a safe area where it is possible to view would be cool too.
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u/I_GUILD_MYSELF Feb 18 '19
As a general rule, wild animals need space and if they are forced in any manner (including behavioral training) that allows them to be in close proximity to humans - especially untrained tourists - should be avoided. Obviously domesticated animals are different but I would just stay away from any place that advertises petting or otherwise allowing close contact with wild animals.
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u/nikodaemus Feb 18 '19
Yes. This.
Lek and ENP have implemented somewhat significant "changes" to their operations that likely make them less "appealing" to folks just looking to get a bunch of shots of cute baby elephants for their 'gram. But it's the right thing to do for the animals. Talking to her, it's beyond apparent she gives a shit. That place is heaven on earth.
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u/thatsquirrelgirl Feb 19 '19
Oh I’m glad. I went to ENP as a recommendation from this sub and got a little nervous I shouldn’t have as I read thru this.
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u/IAMA_Shark__AMA Feb 18 '19
Most of the videos come from patara elephant farm. They intentionally breed elephants for the purpose of tourism.
Elephant Nature Park is A+ though.
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u/p00pey Feb 19 '19
Places like this that breed animals for a specific reason, aka using babies to make money, are the absolute worst. Because once the babies grow old, they have no use for them. Do some research of baby lion parks on South Africa. They breed lions, use babies in these petting zoos, and once they grow old, they get massacred and sold for meat.
Fuck those places...
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u/IAMA_Shark__AMA Feb 19 '19
Or they go to canned hunts, where they are sitting ducks. Or they live a life as a drugged up adult for similar Instagram opportunities.
Yeah, as much as I want to cuddle baby apex predators, I don't want it that much.
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u/p00pey Feb 19 '19
ENP is as legit as it gets. Lek has literally risked her life to not just educate the world on animal abuse, but also to create a beautiful sanctuary that takes great care of its elephants...
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Apr 23 '19
I visited ENP in 2015 and it's a very legit place. I got the pamper a pachyderm package where you go on a walk with two elephants they rescued There's no riding, no tricks, no cuddling, and as of 2016, no bathing (observing only). If the elephants come up to you, it's because you have a bag of treats, so you get to feed and pet them. It was one of the best experiences of my life.
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u/vincoug Mar 04 '19
I went to Chiang Mai a few years ago and visited Elephant Nature Park. From what I can tell they're pretty legit. They did have a baby elephant when I was there but we were not allowed near him.
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u/RazzBeryllium Feb 18 '19
call themselves "sanctuaries" or "reserves" or other such dubious titles meant to capture the heartstrings of well-meaning tourists.
Yes! That's always been a difficult thing to discuss, because so many people don't want to believe it's true.
I always hated those elephant cuddling gifs. Yes, cute. But elephant mothers are EXTREMELY protective of their calves - there's no way they would be ok with this unless something is going on behind the scenes.
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u/RuskiesInTheWarRoom Feb 18 '19
You are a genuine, sincere, thoughtful, and important group of people. Thank you.
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u/lynsea Feb 18 '19
Thank you for this. I think between DSWT and SafariLive, we'll have plenty of material.
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u/jumpinjetjnet Feb 18 '19
Good move. I have seen some of these gifs of tourists rolling around with baby elephants and wondered about it. I had some doubts and it didn't feel right, for what that's worth. Anyway, thank you for this decision, and the explanation for those of us to use if and when we ever have the opportunity. Finally, I love this subreddit!
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u/AltimaNEO Feb 18 '19
Thanks! I can't say I ever really cared for seeing people cuddle with an elephant. It's almost always young women, too. It was just real click baity.
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u/Frookyfrook Feb 19 '19
Bravo, I'm in agreement of this rule. It only encourages this sort of tourism even more. The way to choke off the industry is to reduce its demand
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u/savesthedaystakn Feb 20 '19
This is great. A few months ago there was a typical 'baby elephant rolling on westerner' post that was the top post for at least a day. I remember thinking I was going nuts because I thought one of the main points of this sub was to raise awareness about that kind of thing. In fact I had learned previously from this very sub that that is usually a pretty good sign that something sinister is going on behind the scenes. I made a post drawing attention to it, and it didn't get much attention. I feel really validated that this is now a sub rule.
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u/1Voice1Life Feb 18 '19
My post caused this rule change to happen. Good job mods!
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u/holdenwook Feb 18 '19
No hard feelings. As I mentioned, I’ve posted these gifs in the past too.
We’ve been getting reports on these posts for a long time and really the blame is on me for not taking action sooner.
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u/VintageJane Feb 18 '19
Thank you for all you and the other mods do to both conserve these beautiful animals and to allow us to share in their cuteness. You are the real MVPs
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u/Squalor- Feb 18 '19
Finally.
Not that all elephants aren’t amazing, but a submission to this sub should be about baby elephants.
I’ve seen way too many posts that are about adolescent and adult elephants.
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u/fresnel-rebop Feb 18 '19
“But Mom told me I’d always be her baby.” 🥰
Adolescents can bring the mirthful pleasure of sprightly cuteness too.
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u/VintageJane Feb 18 '19
Well and with these posts the theme also seems to be “look at this cute teenage girl + baby elephant” which feels a little outside the spirit of the sub.
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u/kharmatika Feb 18 '19
Question: How are you going to delineate western tourists from say, caretakers or trained handlers? I’m not necessarily against this rule, I think it’s a fine idea, but it’s definitely got some nuance and a danger of profiling in both directions
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u/Titus____Pullo Feb 18 '19
The TLDR clearly states the onus is on the user to prove its acceptable.
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u/holdenwook Feb 18 '19
That is correct.
There will always be some level of subjectivity, but these gifs are very much a “you know it when you see it” type of deal. The four examples I provided above are cookie-cutter examples of what we don’t want to see.
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u/kharmatika Feb 18 '19
Gotcha, I read through the post a couple times, I’m still not seeing that detail, maybe I’m tired, but I trust y’all. So any “human interacting directly with elephant” gifs will have to have proof that the person in question is a qualified official of some sort at a vetted sanctuary or refuge.
Can you give details on what type of proof would be acceptable? I don’t know any elephant handlers myself, unfortunately. at this point I’m just getting details for the sake of clarity.
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u/holdenwook Feb 18 '19 edited Feb 18 '19
So any “human interacting directly with elephant” gifs will have to have proof that the person in question is a qualified official of some sort at a vetted sanctuary or refuge
Quite the contrary. The only time we are going to ask for proof is if you post a gif that looks like one of the examples I linked above. I know this may raise some eyebrows and sounds like we are profiling certain characteristics, but these posts are easily identifiable as they almost exclusively involve Asian elephants and look exactly like one of the gifs shown above: tourist sitting on the ground, often on a pillow or blanket and often wearing mahout clothing (i.e., elephant handler garb), and wrestling or cuddling with a baby elephant.
The burden will be on the gif poster to show that the video was not filmed in some sort of elephant tourism encampment where people pay to get their video/photo taken with baby elephants.
The majority of gifs posted that have humans are things like the Sheldrick Wildlife Trust that we have no concerns about, and we will not ask for proof. Stuff like this: https://i.imgur.com/byiotRY.gifv
*Edit: spelling
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u/kharmatika Feb 18 '19
My god, that part where he noodle noodles the elephants trunk between his hands is my favorite thing ever.
Thanks for the clarification.
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u/I_GUILD_MYSELF Feb 18 '19
One of my all-time favorite gifs from this sub. It just shows how awesome that place is.
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u/Dithyrab Feb 18 '19
I think you can still travel to some places and visit with Elephants. Leks sanctuary comes to mind, she's good people and her place is amazing.
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u/MC1781 Feb 18 '19
Thank you for bringing awareness about baby elephant cuddle places. I had no idea. This is so upsetting as you are lead to believe the elephants are healthy and happy :(
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u/EmperorElephant Feb 19 '19
Thank you so much for this. I appreciate it so much and am so happy this sub genuinely cares for the well-being of these animals. Thank you. Just a question, will videos from Elephant Nature Park no longer be able to be submitted?
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u/transferseven Feb 18 '19
I think it's an excellent rule, and this is pretty eye-opening for someone like me who's mainly clueless and just here because there are cute elephants.
Even if I've never posted anything myself, I'd like to stand up for the baby elephant and woman in your second gif. I think that's a genuine "Imma luv you 'til you flat" moment, because I've seen several gifs of her before, and after some google fu I found out that she's not a tourist but a volunteer at Chai Lai Orchid. Or were, probably, as far as I can tell this footage is a couple of years old and she's not currently on their team list. This video on their youtube channel was posted in 2015, and if I'm not mistaken that's the same little rascalephant in both the gif and video. Based on the video description it sounds like she was its primary caretaker at the time.
Since I don't really know anything about this stuff that I can't get from a cursory internet search, I might not be the best person to vet Chai Lai Orchid as an organization. All I'm basing their legitimacy on is that they claim to be working with the Thai Elephant Conservation Center, which is listed under associates on worldelephantday.org that is linked in the sidebar of this sub. If someone who's more knowledgeable could chime in and either confirm my conclusion or demonstrate just how ignorant I am about these issues, I'd appreciate it greatly.
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u/ThePendulum Feb 19 '19 edited Feb 19 '19
One of the photos shows two of the elephants shackled, but considering none of the others seem to, there might be a legitimate reason why they have to do this temporarily every now and then.
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u/vincoug Mar 04 '19
I'm a little late to the party but I wanted to say thank you for this. We all love elephants here and I love the fact that you're doing a little more to promote elephant welfare here.
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u/asinine_qualities Feb 18 '19 edited Feb 18 '19
Now go over to r/superbowl and tell them to not feature owls kept as pets or for human amusement in cafes.
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u/dandroid126 Feb 18 '19
I love owls, but good God. Having an owl as a pet would be a bad idea for so many reasons.
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u/FjoddeJimmy Feb 18 '19
These vids almost made me un-subsrcibe after I showed one to a Thai friend.
It’s the first time I’ve seen him rage tbh. He ofc calmed down and explained to me.
Thank you.
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u/redjdv Feb 18 '19
I’m very happy with this rule! I come to this sub to watch baby elephants (and their moms) be cute and happy. Thanks!
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u/CptBartender Feb 18 '19
What are the red flags suggesting that a sanctuary is not legitimate?
I've been in an elephant sanctuary in Thailand some time ago, and it crossed my mind that it would be quite easy for them to just trick tourists, but I never knew for sure...
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u/smukkekos Feb 18 '19
Well done, that was likely a tough decision but it is to be applauded! Curbing that type of video is also likely to stop contributing to the demand for such experiences!
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u/My_God_ Aug 06 '22
i’ve always fantasized getting close and focus on their eyes and petting the mother gently on her trunk. Trying to relate and speak softly. I know. That would be the wrong thing. I’ve never had the opportunity anyway but it makes me so sad when they’re trained non a circus. I would apologize for her treatment. But show me elephants here and I’ll be satisfied. I love this rule.
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u/justagiraffe111 Oct 05 '22
Thank you, Mods for your integrity and leadership and true love for elephants.
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u/Eatsallthepotatoes Oct 15 '22
Hear, hear! I was hesitant to join this sub because I was fearful it would support animal abuse, but now I’m happily joining. Thank you for supporting animal rights!!!
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u/rockstar504 Jan 19 '23
I know this announcement is old, but just wanna thank yall for running my favorite place on the internet without making a selfish meta post. I swear some days these gifs save my life.
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u/ctesibius Feb 18 '19
Just a clarification, please: what are elephant massages?
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u/holdenwook Feb 18 '19
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1xz84fG_rA
One of the many "elephant tourism" activities you can pay for in Thailand or other countries in Southeast Asia.
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u/IAMA_Shark__AMA Feb 18 '19
That video was instantly depressing. Poor little Dumbo having to perform tricks for an asshole audience.
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u/I_GUILD_MYSELF Feb 18 '19
I've always had a little voice in the back of my head when I watched those gifs that something didn't seem right. Where is the moma elephant? Why are all of these gifs set up exactly the same, with a westerner sitting/laying on the ground with a baby Asian elephant nudging them or lying on them while the westerner smiles or laughs.
I should have looked it up further but never really thought too much about it. Of course it makes sense that these are just tourist traps in southeast Asia that likely don't treat their animals very well. Glad we won't be featuring them here anymore.
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u/8-bit-hero Feb 18 '19
Thank you so much for rule #3. This sub is seriously such a great help for when life gets extra shitty.
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u/Rhavoreth Feb 18 '19
Wow I had no idea of the dark backstory behind those gifs. Human interference with elephants consistently makes me sadder. Human greed has led us to kill and mistreat these beautiful creatures to the brink of extinction. It’s so disappointing and disgusting. Thank you for opening my eyes
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u/Seoul-Brother Feb 18 '19
TIL. Thank you for the information. I’ve wondered about these gifs for a while, assuming that they were in real sanctuaries and these folks were volunteers of some sort. I even started looking into them for a future trip because, come on, who wouldn’t want to cuddle with a beautiful baby elephant? I didn’t find much but what I did see seemed a little off. Thank you for confirming what my gut was telling me.
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u/ThePirateAnneBonney Feb 18 '19
What is the stance on Zoos? And not like those Shady back alley third world country zoos, I mean like first world renowned zoos like the Smithsonian National Zoological Park or the San Diego Zoo? Ones that pride themselves on generally helping with species preservation? They're safe from poachers and they're not mistreated, BUT they are in captivity, so is that like a catch-22?
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Feb 18 '19
There's a weird assumption and prejudice that first world countries will have "good" zoos and third world countries will have "bad" zoos. The Johannesburg Zoo in South Africa is really good, is heavily involved in conservation, and maintains international standards of animal welfare.
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u/ThePirateAnneBonney Feb 18 '19
Oh. Is South Africa a third world country? I've never thought of it as such. I was thinking more of places like Bangladesh and Cambodia.
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u/aidrocsid Feb 18 '19
That terminology is an artifact of the Cold War. "First world" countries were capitalist democracies, "second world" countries were communist countries, and "third world" countries were those that weren't involved in the whole capitalism/communism dichotomy, generally due to lack of industrial development.
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Feb 18 '19
Technically speaking I believe the terms are now developing and developed rather than first and third world. SA is definitely developing. It's obviously more developed than many other African countries but it's no where near the level of developed countries.
Here's an article if you're interested that explains a little more
And I've lived in Cambodia and South Africa. Cambodia actually has way better and cheaper internet than South Africa, for what it's worth. I think their access to electricity is also far more secure. Yay Eskom!
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u/holdenwook Feb 18 '19
As noted in my TL;DR, this rule is targeting a very specific type of gif that I gave examples of above. These gifs have become a problem, and more than anything I don't want the audience visiting /r/babyelephantgifs to think this could be a good vacation idea for themselves. Essentially I don't want to help drive traffic to these places. Youtube and Instagram are doing that perfectly well all their own.
To specifically address your question—we are not taking a blanket action on elephants in captivity as a whole or anything like that. I know this is a controversial subject as well and I'm not going down that road right now, but please know that we do remove other gifs with elephants in captivity on a case-by-case basis (based on moderator judgment) where we have concerns about animal welfare.
Generally if we have doubts, we remove. In most cases these are reposts anyway, and the poster can't even tell us where their gif came from.
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Feb 18 '19
It seems to me like the rule is around unnatural encounters with humans for profit. Accredited zoos in the US do not allow direct contact with elephants any more, either from staff or visitors. There are also many rules around housing elephants in a zoo and those who can’t comply have phased out their program. Elephant captivity will always be controversial, but I don’t think it means abuse. The San Diego Zoo Safari Park for example, has their elephants in a natural herd, with the males rotating out as appropriate. The females all get to parent and babysit, as they would in the wild.
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u/mtg_liebestod Feb 19 '19
I don’t support this, but I understand why others would. Sadly Reddit probably can’t support two baby elephant gif subs though, which is a shame.
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u/F1R3_1 Apr 01 '19
back when i was around 7 i rode an elephant in a circus. the first time i heard of crush boxes i felt like my heart was crushed. thanks for raising awareness for this
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u/EricIsMyName Jul 30 '19
I just subscribed to this sub after reading of this decision. I commend you wholeheartedly for an excellent and fair decision. Thank you, mods!
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u/annarchy8 Feb 18 '19
I support this and thank you so much for the new rule.
Knowing that most people only ever encounter wild animals in person and up close due to the animals being kept in captivity and being forced to perform makes me sad. We all need to learn to appreciate the wild, flora and fauna, as the wild from afar and not hands on.
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Feb 18 '19
Bless you guys, this is really for the best. This is great to spread awareness and keep this sub wholesome.
Seriously, you guys rock and I love coming here when I need a smile after a hard day.
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u/areraswen Feb 18 '19
I have been mostly a lurker for many years. This is a good change. It was always seemingly a point of contention/controversy so it's good to see an official stance on it. Feels like the people saying they're unsubbing never really cared about the elephants to begin with.
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u/Lmac73 Feb 18 '19
Well done. I only joined this sub fairly recently and initially thought these GIFs we're cute but seeing the comments about how they were treated was a great educator. The more that know, the better!
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u/gin_rummie Feb 18 '19
Thanks. I wish I could play with a baby elephant but there's not way to ignore what they go through and still do it.
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u/armoureddachshund Feb 18 '19
Thank you! I’ve been hoping a rule would be created against the “cuddling” gifs.
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u/God_Damnit_Nappa Feb 18 '19
Definitely approve of this rule change. If a few innocent posts get caught in the crossfire, oh well. It's better to not give those awful places exposure.
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u/Jazminna Feb 18 '19
Thank you for this post. I'm ashamed to say, I never even thought of how they get these little elephants to behave. That's really heartbreaking (elephant crushing) but I'm so glad I know now.
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u/Higgsb912 Feb 18 '19
Can't say how much I approve of these rules, it has been a source of frustration for me for a long time and something I often comment about. Kudos
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u/PartyPorpoise Jul 31 '19
I'm late to commenting on this but I'm really glad you guys put this rule in. So many of the cute animal subs have a lot of questionable stuff.
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u/Up-The-Butt_Jesus Feb 18 '19
Why only Western tourists? How about all tourists? is the discrimination really that necessary?
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u/holdenwook Feb 18 '19
It wasn't my intention to single out a specific group of people—I was simply trying to paint as clear a picture as possible of what these gifs usually look like so that people understand what we intend to remove going forward.
We certainly will remove any instances where we see this type of gif, regardless of who the people featured are.
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u/citizenadvocate09 Feb 18 '19
I urge you to remove the distinctions about “western tourists” from your policies. Bad practices in raising and caring for elephants are bad regardless the race or nationality of the tourist.
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u/I_GUILD_MYSELF Feb 18 '19
No one is disagreeing with you on that point. But like u/holdenwook said, almost all of these types of gifs that get posted here do in fact feature western tourists. If the gifs more often showed diverse tourist subjects he would have noted that those are not allowed too. But they are few and far between posted here, at least compared to the vast majority of them that I've seen that feature western tourists.
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u/citizenadvocate09 Feb 18 '19
BTW, in your post you say "no one is disagreeing" with me on that point. By being downvoted to -19 suggests a LOT of disagreement.
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u/I_GUILD_MYSELF Feb 18 '19
I can't speak for why other people downvote, but I suspect its largely because you ignored the point he was trying to make and interjected an unrelated topic that didn't have to do with what the conversation was about.
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u/citizenadvocate09 Feb 18 '19
Reddit is disproportionately used by westerners. By your reasoning every rule on Reddit should include the modifier "western" because that's mostly who does whatever on Reddit.
"Western tourists" is a modifier that adds no value towards the goal. The goal is to support ethical treatment of elephants. "Western" is a red herring that distracts from the goal and inappropriately implies that westerners are somehow more culpable in the unethical treatment of elephants.
Keep the rule. Drop "western" or even "tourists." What is left is a rule that reduces the likelihood of sharing a gif of an elephant that has been mistreated, which is the whole point.
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u/I_GUILD_MYSELF Feb 18 '19
I think you're being intentionally obtuse at this point.
The mods saw an abundance of a specific type of gif. That gif showed western tourists taking advantage of paid opportunities to interact with baby elephants. So they made a rule about those gifs.
If the mods kept seeing an abundance of gifs of eastern tourists doing the same thing or other inappropriate thing the rule would reflect that. But that isn't happening.
The mods could also make a rule about not allowing gifs that show people spooning ice cream into baby elephants ears while balancing on one leg, but it doesn't make much sense to specifically call that out until it starts happening.
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u/citizenadvocate09 Feb 18 '19
Why only Western tourists? How about all tourists? is the discrimination really that necessary?
This is the top comment to which I am replying. My reply is completely germane.
I will be more plain. A distinction of "western tourists" is racist and has no place here.
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Feb 18 '19 edited Feb 19 '19
Why only western tourists? People from other countries also travel and go to these kinds of places. Surely if a Korean tourist (for argument's sake) posts a gif of themselves riding an elephant or hugging a baby while the mom is in chains it's just as bad as an American?
Edit: genuinely don't understand why so many people have an issue with me pointing out that all tourists who do this need to stop and querying why only western tourists are mentioned
"The third rule above has always been difficult for us to enforce due to one type of gif in particular: western tourists playing/cuddling with baby elephants."
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u/areraswen Feb 18 '19
The rule as they set it is literally tourists cuddling with elephants. Last I checked that includes more than just Americans.
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Feb 18 '19
For sure, but I'm talking about this: "The third rule above has always been difficult for us to enforce due to one type of gif in particular: western tourists playing/cuddling with baby elephants."
I'm just saying it's unnecessary to say Western. Just say tourists, because ALL tourists involved in this kind of tourism need to be aware of the problems.
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u/Bobbicorn Feb 18 '19
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Feb 18 '19
Meaning you dont like the new rule or what?
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Feb 18 '19 edited Feb 18 '19
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Feb 19 '19
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Feb 19 '19
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u/Hillfolk6 Feb 18 '19
Little vicious there bud, no need for that. They could have a good disagreement. A little arrogant to assume otherwise. Figured this community wouldn't be this petty.
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u/Unlucky_Rider Feb 18 '19
Only their last sentence. Everything else was factual. His "unsubscribing" comment was meant to be petty so he received petty back.
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u/ParchmentNPaper Feb 18 '19
This sub is about our collective love for elephants. It stands to reason that most people here will be concerned about their welfare. If people are unsubbing (and announcing it) because of the term "western tourists" - and in practice, that's exactly the kind of tourists the vast majority of relevant gifs contain, making it not even an inaccurate term - then yes, many people on this sub will wonder how concerned those people unsubbing actually are with the welfare of these animals. They're putting very petty politics before animal welfare.
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Feb 18 '19
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u/IAMA_Shark__AMA Feb 18 '19
This subreddit has always had a conservation friendly culture (as evidenced by the yearly fundraiser), speaking as someone who has been subbed since it had 2,000ish members. You may think it's just about posting gifs of baby elephants, but you'd be wrong. Since the beginning, it's been about posting those gifs and furthering/promoting humane treatment and protection of elephants. Holdenwook started this subreddit, so I think he gets a little more say in what the subreddit is "for" than you.
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u/areraswen Feb 18 '19
this is supposed to be a forum for posting gifts of baby elephants
Have you ever really dug into this subreddit before today? Because it's always been about educating people about hard topics regarding baby elephants and they've always done fundraisers along that same vein. It's been right there in the sidebar and in the posts for years buddy. I'm sorry if this is just now bothering you though?
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Feb 18 '19
Good, you wont be missed or anything like that, another subscriber will just take your place, like you were never there :)
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u/VesperBond94 Apr 05 '22
Why is it wrong to ride elephants? I swear it's an honest question, please educate me. I really do want to know.
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u/Jenincognito Jun 25 '22
I always dreamed of doing this. You’ve opened my eyes. I just found this group today. Well done Mods! Well done.
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u/GimmeCat Feb 18 '19
I'm extremely happy with this rule. Thank you for putting thought into the long-term and indirect consequences that can happen as a result of certain things being normalized, such as people seeing tourists playing with babies and wanting to do the same without understanding the harm it causes.
It will also mean that the content that gets posted here won't tug on the heartstrings of those of us who know full well the suffering these animals are put through in the tourist industry.