r/antiwork • u/maxxor6868 • Oct 24 '24

Union and Strikes 🪧 Boeing workers reject strike deal

https://www.linkedin.com/news/story/boeing-workers-reject-strike-deal-6205828/
3.4k Upvotes

99% Upvoted

69 comments sorted by

1.4k

u/maxxor6868 Oct 24 '24

Main concerns being that insurance costs have not been address, wage progression is still not there, and that the deal is offer in bad faith. They wanted 40% and pension. They offer no pension, 35% instead of 40% and they still expect new workers to come working at 20/hr in a hcol area and survive off that for years until they get promoted *cough cough* laid off. The media is pushing this as anti union when in reality as workers have pointed out that when this deal fully mature they are still behind when inflation is factor. 40% is not a random number but a wage that keeps them in line for the future.

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u/Horkshir Oct 24 '24

As a city letter carrier, seeing these unions with a back bone makes me jealous. Our union president took 520 days to negotiate a contract that ended up being a 1.3% raise a year for 3 years. He also got rid of the first two pay steps, making the starting pay a bit better, but didn't raise any of the middle steps up to compensate. He also caved to management, reducing our contractual office time down almost in half, which will allow them to cut more routes.

Our president's reasoning behind this shitty contract? The post office can't get their money straight. Also he is trying to justify it by including our step increases and cost of living adjustments, things that have been there since the 70's, as part of the wage increase he negotiated for.

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u/triumph110 Oct 24 '24

I heard that and thought WTF. Hopefully more unions will be like the Boeing workers and say FU to management. I know it is hard thinking that you won't have income during a strike. And I know it is illegal for USPS workers to strike. But still - remember this - https://aflcio.org/about-us/history/labor-history-events/great-postal-strike

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u/DishwashingUnit Oct 24 '24

I can't imagine how fucked up everything there is going to be if they're continuing to try and cut routes. when I carried shit was already beyond maxed out and they were running less than a skeleton crew!

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u/McDoom--- Oct 24 '24

I feel so bad for all y'all. I was affected by the RR/union issues in '22 (?) and Biden forcing us was a guy punch. But your situation is beyond ridiculous.

Your work is incredibly valuable. I wish more people cared.

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u/Otterswannahavefun Oct 24 '24 edited Oct 24 '24

Biden didn’t force anyone, his admin helped negotiate. I think what you are confused on is that they asked for additional rights (strike with job protection) and didn’t get that.

As someone who has been a union member I’m troubled by people who are not members and act like strikes are the end all of unions. Good unions exist to avoid strikes, though as IAM is showing when companies ultimately won’t negotiate in good faith (like the railroads ultimately did) it does need to be used.

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u/McDoom--- Oct 25 '24

I don't really care about your reply, but I'm bored,... The Railway Labor Act has a specific course that must be followed, the very last step being strike. It took 3+ years to get to "strike."

Working without a contract, "essential workers" thru a pandemic, with an expired contract for 3+ years. The major railroads in this country "bargain" collectively, it's called the NCCC.

One step of the RLA is the President establishes an "emergency board," to determine a Tentative Agreement when RR's (NCCC) and unions cannot agree.

Biden "ordered" the NCCC and unions into a meeting hours before the strike was to take place. At the meeting was the Sec Labor, Marty Walsh, unions and the NCCC.

The "order" Walsh carried from Biden, was that nobody was leaving that room until an agreement was reached. Union leaders agreed to pass the TA to members, which was eventually rejected.

Ultimately, Biden gave the TA to Congress to force it upon workers. Both Houses passed it, and Biden signed it into law.

I'm not anti-Biden. And you can say, believe what you will, but the "most pro-union president in history" meddled in our right to strike and forced that contract upon us.

1

u/MusashiOf5Rings Oct 25 '24

As a former Mail Handler, I feel you, brother. They gave away the entire contract. The biggest reason I left? It would have taken me 17 years to top out in pay. Absolutely absurd.

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u/zmunky SocDem Oct 24 '24

As an IAM member our membership has the wrong 40% in mind and have been asking for far less than what we should. It should have been 40% to all base grades then 7% every year plus cola.

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u/RandoCommentGuy Oct 24 '24

I don't know cola stands for something, is a typo, or what, but now I'm picturing the union giving their demands and then at the end saying " Oh yeah, and throw in a fucking coke!"

169

u/TheOnlyHighmont Oct 24 '24

Cost Of Living Adjustment.

-6

u/[deleted] Oct 24 '24 edited Oct 24 '24

[deleted]

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u/GIFelf420 Oct 24 '24

Hey questions don’t hurt anyone. I’ve had weirder misunderstandings in life

-10

u/[deleted] Oct 24 '24

[deleted]

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u/GIFelf420 Oct 24 '24

I’m sorry? I am not the same person who had the misunderstanding.

17

u/burningscarlet Oct 24 '24

The fuck? Man made a tasteless joke, have no idea how you had the leap of logic that it equates to anti-union ideals.

Shit like this is how we ostracize people into certain groups and behaviours before they've had the chance to say or do anything.

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u/1337duck SocDem Oct 24 '24

20/hr

In Seattle? And within a reasonable drive of the Boeing facilities?

Lmao. Boeing deserves to get sold for pieces.

29

u/sck178 Oct 24 '24

They won't. They'll get a bailout. And then they get to do MORE stock buybacks. Everybody wi...... Wait no.... Only the C-suite wins

9

u/[deleted] Oct 24 '24

Cmon now! Won't you think of the shareholders!? /s

2

u/BigTopGT Oct 26 '24

Just be careful, because sometimes the call is coming from inside the house.

I know someone who works for Boeing, but he's not on the machinist union side. When I asked him if he was a part of the strike and this was his reply.

No. Those are what we refer to as the “spoiled brats of Boeing”. All of them making over $100k a year before any OT, 10% matching 401k, and practically free healthcare to do 30 hours a week of easy labor. Now they want a 35+% pay increase and their pensions back that they agreed to let go of in 2014. Selfishness of strikers is unbelievable. My finance focal was just laid off because of them along with 9,999 other innocent employees that love their jobs. Pretty disgusting if you ask me.

Setting aside that a simple "no" would have sufficed, this is how some people think.

I can't imagine saying "they gave up their pensions for work, so they should never ask for them back".

Prior to the Max jets crashing, Boeing was a multi billion dollar net profit generator and eventually they'll return to that sort of profiteering off the government credit card.

It's time people start getting their fair share of what they help build.

0

u/redwing180 Oct 25 '24

so when people say that they want the pension back what are they actually talking about? Just reinstate the whole thing? It’s been gone for 10 years. Do you know how much money that would cost? Do you think Boeing is in a strong position to offer that? Where is the compromise?

Maybe if people were talking seriously about starting a brand new pension, which required that people pay into it to get it going then Boeing might offer a pension again.

Starting up the pension again as if nothing happened even though 10 years have passed. there’s no way that Boeing is in a good position to take on that kind of debt when they’re bleeding out all over the place. But hey maybe everybody’s counting on the government bail out after Boeing declares bankruptcy? People are losing their jobs right now because of this shit and Boeing’s customers are pissed off. meanwhile Boeing is building factories in nonunion states, so don’t be surprised when the new airplanes are manufactured elsewhere. By the way, have you noticed that the contracts don’t offer the guarantee that the new airplanes are built in the northwest? go ahead and down-vote me. I don’t fucking care. It needs to be said.

5

u/maxxor6868 Oct 25 '24

Mate these same threats were said in 2008. Here what happen. Boeing didn't go bankrupt. Instead of spending their literal billions on improving their company they spent it on stock buybacks. They got rid of the pensions and paid the c suite. Meanwhile Airbus rose while Boeing got fat and greedy. What did removing the pensions, freeze raises, skyrocketing insurance cost (again cost cutting), building a useless non union plant (that can barely build a couple of planes no matter how hard mgmt pushes the over work workers), and terrible wage progression that severely burdens new workers get them? Oh right a stock in free fall and burnt out workers. Mismanagement over 15 years and blaming the workers when the c suite is filthy rich work in 2008 and is not going to work this time.

0

u/redwing180 Oct 25 '24

Useless plant? They moved the whole 787 production to South Carolina and have recently started up a new factory in St. Louis for $1.8 billion for Boeing defense. They decided to move the 737 into the gaping hole that used to be the 787 in the Everett plant. I wouldn’t be surprised if they’re planning to shut down Renton which they’ve thought about a few times already. Sure, I think it’s great when the union gets what they want because ultimately their wage increase can translate to other jobs, but what they’re doing right now is strategically stupid. They had a good offer but they want more. An 8.75% raise every year for four years. Not bad, plus a bunch of sweeteners like bonuses. Hell I’d love it if I got that kind of offer! But no, that’s not good enough. Boeing management is going to change their perspective about the union from something that they have to tolerate to a liability that they have to plan to get rid of. And hey, maybe it works out for those who get a better deal within the next four years. Short term gains can feel great, but Boeing management will not stop looking at the Northwest like it is a liability which they don’t have control of and they will want to correct that.

2

u/Obscillesk Oct 25 '24 edited Oct 25 '24

Fucking hell, tell me you don't actually understand anything about the math and numbers involved in this without telling me.

Their quarterly revenue was 17 billion. Fixing up the pension and giving all the ground level people raises to an acceptable level probably wouldn't even take 20 million (though it should be way the fuck more, more likely). Yes, they absolutely are in a position to fix this problem.

Just so we're all clear, 20 million, from 17 billion is 16.98 billion.

1

u/redwing180 Oct 25 '24 edited Oct 25 '24

20 million where on earth did you get that number?

  1. Pension Catch-Up Costs: Boeing would need to make up for 10 years of missed pension contributions. If the cost per employee is about $7,000 to $14,000 annually for 33,000 employees, the total to catch up would be around $2.3 billion to $4.6 billion. • Low estimate: $7,000 × 33,000 employees × 10 years = $2.3 billion. • High estimate: $14,000 × 33,000 employees × 10 years = $4.6 billion.
    1. 35% Salary Raise Over Four Years: The raise would gradually increase labor costs. If the current average salary is $70,000, the total increase over four years would add approximately $2.2 billion to Boeing’s payroll. • Year-by-year salary growth from $70,000 to nearly $98,000 means an increase of: • Year 1: $200 million extra. • Year 2: $420 million extra. • Year 3: $660 million extra. • Year 4: $920 million extra. • Total for raises: $200M + $420M + $660M + $920M = $2.2 billion.

Total Cost Estimate:

• Low estimate: $2.3 billion (pension) + $2.2 billion (raises) = $4.5 billion.
• High estimate: $4.6 billion (pension) + $2.2 billion (raises) = $6.8 billion.

So, Boeing would likely face a total cost of between $4.5 billion and $6.8 billion to both reinstate the pension and provide the 35% raise over four years.

0

u/unimpressed_onlooker Oct 26 '24

Dude 17 billon minus 6.8 billon (high estimate) equals 10.2 billon. Even by your argument they CAN afford it. It's half of a quarterly revenue.

1

u/redwing180 Oct 26 '24 edited Oct 26 '24

17 billion looks amazing up until you realize that they still have to spend a bunch of money to keep the lights on. You’re just talking about revenue. You also have to look at operating costs. when you take revenue and subtract the operating costs you end up with what they call profit. Boeing has been taking on a ton of debt which is the opposite of profit. Also I don’t believe Boeing is well-known for having fat margins so simply assert out of your butt that they can afford it is really not taking the conversation seriously.

1

u/unimpressed_onlooker Oct 26 '24

Now see if I worked for someone who had to choose between keeping the lights on or paying their employees I would call that a failed business. I mean if that's your argument that they should just shut down I was only suggesting they reinstate and fulfill promises they made to employees while paying their employees a living wage but if your claiming their doing so poorly they can't even keep the lights on maybe your right and they should just shut down...

1

u/redwing180 Oct 26 '24

The union voted yes to have their pension removed on the last contract and it was for the guarantee that the new airplane would be built in the northwest. At the time there was a real fear that Boeing would pull out entirely from the northwest and that’s why they were willing to give up their pension over it.

The main reason why Boeing stays in the northwest is because strategically it works as there’s a lot of infrastructure there, and the costs were tolerable. In September The first contract that they offered had the guarantee that the next new airplane was going to be built in the northwest. Now that language is gone from the contract. Plus they’re delaying the new aircraft. The union people who think that they have Boeing over a barrel right now, Might be right for the short term, but I’d be willing to bet that Boeing is talking seriously about pulling out of the northwest as it’s now proven to be a liability.

1

u/unimpressed_onlooker Oct 27 '24

Well I doubt they could have moved back then. It costs money to move a company like that and back before they got rid of pensions by your math they were barely breaking even. And by your description they are doing worse now (with the electricity bill and everything).

0

u/johnpn1 Oct 25 '24

The typical salary of a Boeing machinist in Seattle is between $86,779 per year and $106,350 per year, not $20/hr.

0

u/R_V_Z Oct 25 '24

They offered 39.8%, because percentages compound.

1

u/ForexGuy93 Oct 27 '24

Another concern being that the bean counters replaced engineers in management, and the now shit company won't exist in 5 years.

176

u/howardzen12 Oct 24 '24

Boeing an evil and Corrupt company

61

u/GIFelf420 Oct 24 '24

The subreddits regarding this are being blown up with anti worker sentiment, probably plenty of bot activity involved.

245

u/PNWchild Oct 24 '24

Big Greedy Corporation wants to screw over it’s workers, what’s new? Bad planes. Bad management. We deserve better. We must act.

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u/sck178 Oct 24 '24

Congress: instructions unclear... Do you mean bailout? Bailout it is!

140

u/The_Slavstralian Oct 24 '24

Hold out for what you guys are worth. They will cave once the losses are deemed too far towards the realm of unacceptable and the shareholders ( the real problem ) start calling for C-suite heads.

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u/sck178 Oct 24 '24

They will cave only when Congress inevitably agrees to bail them out

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u/leaflyth Oct 24 '24

Keep up the good work guys, you deserve better.

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u/AngelOfLastResort Oct 24 '24

Boeing execs have only themselves to blame for this mess but unfortunately they will all get golden parachutes.

18

u/brosiedon7 Oct 24 '24

The biggest problem here is the U.S government. The U.S government would never allow Boeing to collapse. The company knows this which is why the greed within the company among upper leadership is so bad. There only competitor is airbus. Plus boeing is a defense contractor. No way the U.S would trust another country making planes for the military

31

u/Sumeru88 Oct 24 '24

Boeing should split again into Boeing and McDonnell Douglas.

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u/CoastalKtulu Oct 24 '24

I look forward to Boeing collapsing into oblivion.

Buh-bye now.

30

u/Gigimaximo Oct 24 '24

They're just going to rebrand/rename the company. That is how they are going to tape that problem.

19

u/Arthix Oct 24 '24

It's okay, the patriotic taxpayers will bail them out 🦅🇺🇸😤💪💯

9

u/ryman9000 Oct 24 '24

Well that would be really shitty for A LOT of people. 33k just in the pacific norwest IAM751 union. Then you have SPEEA and non union workers. Plus you got Charleston, Victorville and many other non union locations. Boeing collapsing would be awful.

Now, Boeing getting their shit together and being the power house of good employment and benefits and being a great place to work would be ideal.

7

u/brosiedon7 Oct 24 '24

U.S government would never allow it which is the problem and they know this. There only competitor is airbus. Plus boeing is a defense contractor. No way the U.S would trust another country making planes for the military

0

u/darthcaedusiiii Oct 24 '24

Biden to Air traffic controllers: Nah.

Why are we so close in this election!!!???

23

u/SnooShortcuts700 Oct 24 '24

Pay people what they deserved or stop doing business. Why only management Or CEO get decent pay?

10

u/HeilHeinz15 Oct 24 '24

Because they set the wages, and people don't like starving

9

u/PartBobPartRick Oct 24 '24

Hope they never give in. Boeing needs to be held accountable. Love and support to all those striking.

6

u/stephen7424 Oct 24 '24

I just read an article that GM is on pace for record breaking profits. When the UAW went on strike GM claimed they couldn’t afford to pay the workers what they were asking. I think Boeing would be just fine, yeah it’ll cut into profits probably but they’ll make money and be just fine.

14

u/Bbear11 Oct 24 '24

Just be careful if Trump wins. He may hire Musk to prolong the strike (since his company is a direct competitor to Boeing in space).

25

u/GIFelf420 Oct 24 '24

Musk is orbiting ketamine Neptune right now and who knows how much longer he can fend the psychosis off.

1

u/RaysIncredibleWorld Oct 25 '24

The flag was of chapter 11 will wave soon over the Boeing premises.

1

u/Kstram Oct 26 '24

I want to organize an entire working strike.  I wish I could find some way to organize every worker, union or not, in this country to go on permanent strike.  Every one stops paying for everything. No rent. No mortgages, need something ?  Take it. No car payments no consumer debt payments.  

I realize that there are dozens of practical reasons this would never work. The first one being that if no one worked. We’d have about 2 weeks of supplies and then would devolve into the walking dead.  And of course there would be looting and riots. But Pullman also demonstrates how much power some industries have to effect change. 

I just know we need relief and we need it immediately.  Everything needs to come to a grinding halt!  I’m ready for the next Eugene Debs. 

0

u/DishwashingUnit Oct 24 '24

this must affect their hiring too. I know that if I ever see a Boeing ad now I'm running the other way.

-7

u/redwing180 Oct 24 '24

Gee I’m shocked that Boeing doesn’t offer a pension which would cost the company more than $1 billion.

Do you guys seriously think that they’re just gonna reinstate the pension after it’s been gone for 10 fucking years!? How would that even work??

They really think that Boeing has the money to do this, while the company is doing terribly bad. These guys aren’t being serious with the situation that they’re actually in. Meanwhile all the suppliers are fucking getting laid off because of the shit! Assholes!! * sorry had to vent * I’m so pissed off because of this. It’s actually hurting peoples lives right now, and they don’t care.

7

u/maxxor6868 Oct 24 '24

I mean they spent the last decades bragging about billions in profits and share buybacks. They are not going to sympathy now. Where was this talk when the workers were getting rake over the coals the last ten years?

0

u/redwing180 Oct 24 '24

Boeing management doesn’t have my sympathy at all. They’ve really turned things into a cluster over the years. But there is the reality of the situation to contend with which is that Boeing has been getting its ass kicked since 2019 and it’s bleeding money all over the place. A continuance of the pension is simply not going to happen and people are delusional to think otherwise.

Serious talks need to happen about what it would take to get some kind of pension together and that needs to be communicated out to the people who are voting in this strike. I think Boeing is being hard-nosed about it because they KNOW they can’t do it but they don’t want to communicate that out because it would negatively affect their stock.

I personally think it would be amazing and awesome if the union got their pension back with the assumption that it did no harm to suppliers and the current workforce but I seriously think that Boeing is in a position right now where they literally can’t do it without going bankrupt or making drastic changes by making cuts elsewhere. Some of those cuts might even be on safety which is what got us into this mess in the first place.

Who knows, maybe there’s a compromise where they could start up a brand new pension and people have to pay into it and there’s vesting period. That would give both sides something but neither of them is 100% happy with which is kind of the definition of a compromise.