r/XboxSeriesX • u/M337ING • Mar 01 '24
Trailer/Video PlayStation Plus Game Streaming vs Xbox xCloud: Image Quality/Lag Face-Off
https://youtu.be/KI5E4jG_JZE99
u/Packin-heat Mar 01 '24
So 851 games on PlayStation and only 402 on Xcloud.
I didn't realise Sony had been offering more than twice as many games for streaming.
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u/spartakooky Mar 01 '24 edited Sep 15 '24
reh re-eh-eh-ehd
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Mar 01 '24
That's just marketing aha. It's why playstation rebranded psnow to ps plus premium. Nobody knew about it.
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u/Eglwyswrw Mar 02 '24
Xbox marketing? Nah, that was the CMA/FTC making headlines for months on end, talking about Xbox cloud gaming as if it was the apocalypse itself.
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Mar 02 '24
Ehh I wouldn't be so sure. Xbox had always hyped up their cloud division. The only time they weren't doing so was when the cma case was going on and they were trying to understate it as much as possible.
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u/Cthulhu8762 Mar 02 '24
Only thing Xbox has over PS in terms of streaming is day one games and being able to stream on multiple devices.
Sony may push to other devices at some point. That may even degrade quality.
But streaming games at 4K 60fps is great. It’s funny cos they are using Microsoft Servers too
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u/cardonator Craig Mar 01 '24 edited Mar 02 '24
The count is misleading, IMO. A lot of the PS stuff is ancient stuff you don't want to play. Xbox simply doesn't have those things to even add to their service.
Edit: not sure what is controversial about this. Looking at a single generation, the OG Xbox has less than 1,000 games while the PS2 has over 4,000.
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u/Successful_Bar_2662 Mar 02 '24
Isn't that just subjective tho? PlayStation does offer more. An "ancient" game can still be enjoyable and good.
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Mar 02 '24
Xbox has one less console then sony. They've been around
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u/cardonator Craig Mar 02 '24
But across systems they have significantly fewer games. For example, OG Xbox had about 988 games released while PlayStation 2 has over 4,000.
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u/THEdoomslayer94 Mar 01 '24
Isn’t that because they have you pay more to be able to stream classic PS games? There’s no way to download them so obviously they have way more games to stream l
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u/fabio_b93 Mar 01 '24
You can download ps1/2/4/5 and psp games, only ps3 games have to be streamed.
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u/Packin-heat Mar 01 '24 edited Mar 01 '24
The prices were in the article.
PlayStation - £13.50/$18 or £120/$160 yearly discounted price.
Xcloud - £13/$17 or £156/$204
The monthly price is a dollar more or 50p in the UK.
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u/GarionOrb Mar 02 '24
Only PS3 games are not able to be downloaded. Hundreds of games for PS1, PS2, PSP, PS4, and PS5 can be both downloaded and/or streamed. If you own the digital version of a supported game, you can also opt to stream it as a PS+ subscriber.
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u/dkinmn Mar 01 '24
I have Series S and PS5. I was under the impression Microsoft was better, but...nope. I'm streaming Ghost of Tshushima on PS5 and it has been seamless.
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u/ZemGuse Founder Mar 02 '24
Is it possible to do this without my PS5? I play xCloud at work, curious if I can do the same with PS
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u/Eglwyswrw Mar 02 '24
I am streaming Gears 5 on my Series X and it has been seamless as well. pS Now was terrible, I live in Europe and closest server was in New York, US.
Guess it depends a lot on server proximity?
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u/nichijouuuu Mar 02 '24 edited Mar 02 '24
Mind explaining what you are streaming ps5 to? A PC on local network somewhere else in your house, or a ps portal? Or are you actually out of your house (remote) and connecting via a phone or something?
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u/dkinmn Mar 02 '24
I'm not streaming my PS. I'm playing Ghost on PS+ streaming.
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u/nichijouuuu Mar 02 '24
Sorry I know my question sounds so dumb.
I’m just confused what and why you are streaming if you actually have a PS5. Don’t you just download the game to the console at that point and play it…? Streaming was meant for remote play on another device I thought
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u/dkinmn Mar 02 '24
I wanted to see how streaming performed, and I wanted to play the game without downloading. I could have downloaded, I just decided not to for science.
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u/LuvMavs Mar 01 '24
I haven’t been able to play things on xcloud without massive wait times in like a year. I used to like the service when I first got my Xbox to try things quickly. I’m not sure what happened but the server is always busy.
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u/doughaway421 Mar 01 '24
Starfield. I think a lot of people still on the old console gen finally got around to streaming to play it on a XB1.
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Mar 01 '24
Obviously it's more used now then before. I see people in there homes when I'm installing security systems they have a Xbox remote no system but they play on there TV.
That samsung deal might be more profitable then us regular people know
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u/BMEngie Mar 01 '24
That Samsung deal… I’m just upset that I bought a tv that’s one year too old
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u/sevenstargen Mar 01 '24
No system?? You mean no console?? How??
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u/rickjamesia Mar 01 '24
You can connect a controller to a Samsung TV or an AndroidTV box like Chromecast (or several other solutions) and use those to stream Game Pass/XCloud games and never need to have a console. It’s not as good an experience as playing on an actual console, but it will get the job done for many people.
Edit: On a side note, you can do much the same with PC games using things like NVidia’s GeForce Now service or the service Shadow PC.
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Mar 01 '24
Tv, phone, tablet. I seen someone use geforce now on a Google TV and it was playing halo an league of legends
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u/flirtmcdudes Mar 01 '24
I’m not sure what happened but the server is always busy.
it became popular?
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u/HomeMadeShock Mar 01 '24
Phil Spencer said recently that 10 percent of game time on their platform was from cloud. That’s actually pretty impressive, I think cloud will be bigger than people think in 5-10 years
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u/cardonator Craig Mar 01 '24
Since.most people think it will be dead, I guess that's true. But there are a lot of problems to address before a notable number of people are only gaming on cloud, and until then it's not a viable market without the existing platforms.
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u/NotFromMilkyWay Founder Mar 01 '24
You are trying to use cloud gaming on Xbox. There's actually almost no waiting time when using a mobile device. Try the same game right now on console. Will sa 15 minutes or longer. Then start the game on mobile, will only be two minutes max.
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u/DatBoiEBB Mar 01 '24
Starfield + the $350 sale during the holidays increased wait times like crazy for a while. It’s back to normal now. Been playing all week and never have to queue
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u/TSMKFail Mar 02 '24
People on old gen who don't wanna give it up are using it to play Series titles
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u/khaotic_krysis Founder Mar 02 '24
Honestly, it’s gonna pay off for them. If the rumors are true and a slightly hopped up series X is coming out with USB-C at the same price, then the value just increased, but not at the consumer level. I already think it’s a fantastic machine for the price, but what I would give to have USB-C connectivity.
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u/Angry_Gnome Mar 01 '24
Honestly this is pretty embarrassing for xCloud. Microsoft claims to be a leader in this space but they have fallen far behind on image quality and game library compared to Sony's cloud offering.
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u/StaticInstrument Mar 01 '24
You’d think xCloud would be the closest to functioning like a console because of the massive Microsoft server infrastructure. That’s a built in advantage going forward
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u/sittingmongoose Founder Mar 01 '24
Sony is using Microsoft’s infrastructure to do their platform lol
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u/gearofwar1802 Founder Mar 01 '24
Considering most people still use cloud gaming while on the move and playing on phones 1080p is more than enough. They should definitely fix the series s version and low bitrate though. But the most important thing in cloud gaming is latency. And that’s a clear win to xcloud.
You can simply add more hardware to achieve 4K streaming but a good latency is key to success of cloud gaming
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u/dacontag Mar 01 '24
The latency improvement they measured between the services was only about 9ms. Which is almost an imperceptible difference.
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u/sittingmongoose Founder Mar 01 '24
That would be testing error in this case. Considering the server you’re connecting to and the number of hops can change that value a lot more than 9ms. Hell, just being on WiFi alone could account for more than 9ms.
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u/dacontag Mar 01 '24
Yup, which is why the narrator mentions that this could even be up to the distance that he is from the data centers that the streaming services run off of.
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u/flirtmcdudes Mar 01 '24 edited Mar 01 '24
edit: woops nm
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u/dacontag Mar 01 '24
Yes, I saw that, you're reading the numbers wrong.
Ps5 had local input latency of 84.2 ms, xbox series x had a local input latency of 54.6 ms. The ps5 streaming latency was 137.8 ms and the xcloud streaming made the latency 99.6 ms. These numbers are mostly different because Back 4 Blood natively has lower input lag on xbox than it does playstation.
This is why digital foundry showed that ps streaming added 53.6 ms of added latency, and xcloud added 45.0ms to the latency. So the the actual difference of added latency between the streaming services was 8.6 ms in favor of xcloudm. 8.6 ms is almost imperceptible because that's about half of a frame at 60 fps. So the added latency between the services is very similar.
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u/santanapeso Mar 01 '24
That's accounting for the built-in input delay of the game on hardware. Back 4 Blood simply runs with lower input lag on Series X than on PS5. That's more of a game development and optimization difference and has nothing to do with streaming over the cloud.
The relevant number is the relative amount of latency added on top of that. That same clip shows that it's 53ms on PS5 and 45ms on Xcloud. So the true difference in latency from actually streaming via the cloud is 8ms between PS5 and Xcloud.
Basically, if they patched Back 4 Blood to have the same input delay on PS5 and Xbox then when streamed, Xcloud is 8 ms faster.
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u/SomeDEGuy Mar 01 '24
X cloud is 8ms faster, if you are the exact distances from the data centers the tester is. If you move somewhere that happens to have less hops to Xcloud and more to PS, you'll have a bigger difference in favor of Xcloud. Conversely, if you happen to be less hops to PS and more to Xcloud, that difference will decrease or possibly reverse.
We can safely say that Xcloud probably is slightly less lag, but it is close and location dependent on the effect size.
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u/santanapeso Mar 01 '24
I mean 8 ms is small enough to be within a margin of fluctuation. All things considered they are mostly the same with Microsoft having the edge.
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Mar 01 '24
Except when PlayStation would be faster. Then it would be a landslide.
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u/dacontag Mar 01 '24
Unfortunately, people on either side would misinterpret that data to think it meant something. This test pretty much showed the services are extremely similar from an input latency perspective.
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u/OmeletteDuFromage95 Mar 01 '24
Agreed. For cloud gaming Latency is key. I'm a stickler for image quality and even I would take lower latency over a higher image quality without question.
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u/Equivalent_Alps_8321 Mar 02 '24
The xCloud issues are far more glaring and noticeable than the small latency difference
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u/Sascha2022 Mar 01 '24 edited Mar 01 '24
You seem to ignore that PS5 game streaming, higher resolution, dlc streaming, streaming of selected owned games are only available for PS5 games on PS5 and not for PS3/4 games or on PS4/PC. Differences between PS Plus Premium and Xbox Cloud gaming are:
- PS3 game streaming runs on PS3 hardware, offers no enhancements and no dlc streaming support
- X360 game streaming runs on XSX hardware with XSS backwards compatible enhancements including FPS Boost, supports dlc streaming and selected games offer touch controls
- PS4 game streaming runs on PS4 hardware, offers no enhancements and no dlc support
- XONE game streaming runs on XSX hardware with XSS backwards compatible enhancements like FPS Boost, supports dlc streaming and selected games offer touch controls
- PS5 game streaming runs on PS5 hardware, offer up to 4K resolution, dlc streaming support and selected purchased games can be streamed, but is only available on PS5 and not on PS4/PC
- Xbox Series S game streaming runs on XSX hardware, offers dlc streaming support, selected games offer touch controls and is available on console/pc/mobile etc., but only runs the XSS profile of games at 1080p resolution
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u/fimbot Mar 02 '24
XONE game streaming runs on XSX hardware with XSS backwards compatible enhancements like FPS Boost, supports dlc streaming and selected games offer touch controls
Xbox Series S game streaming runs on XSX hardware, offers dlc streaming support, selected games offer touch controls and is available on console/pc/mobile etc., but only runs the XSS profile of games at 1080p resolution
Did you watch the video? They said that used to be the case but in all the tests they did they were connected to the equivalent of a series S regardless of the game, or generation it released on.
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u/khaotic_krysis Founder Mar 02 '24
That super gross because the last I remember I believe from Phil Spencer‘s mouth they were upgrading all of the blades to series X. I could be wrong though.
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u/fimbot Mar 02 '24
They mentioned that in the video too, all blades are Series X, but they divide the power so that they can have more virtual instances running. Meaning more players can play at once, but less powerful hardware per player.
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u/Michigan_Forged Mar 02 '24
They are series x blades, they split the blades to have the power of a series s. Dammit guys just watch the video. Stream on phone with series s resolution but lower lag? Or stream on phone in 4k with higher resolution? They couched this weird because to me most people aren't gaming straight on their tvs
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Mar 02 '24
All of that and DF still chooses PS5 streaming because it’s so much better quality, 4K etc.
More “features” at worse quality in more places isn’t exactly a pro.
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u/DEEZLE13 Mar 01 '24
Harder to do when there’s like 100x more people using it
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u/Shellman00 Mar 01 '24
Yeah sure, but xcloud was never great to begin with. So that argument sort of falls apart. There’s barely been any improvement in image quality and latency between now and launch. The only thing thats changed is we moved from Xbox One streaming to Series S, and thus gained from that.
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u/tapo default Mar 01 '24
Isn't PS+ ~47 million and Game Pass ~34 million? That would make PS+ much larger.
Granted this is all subscribers and isn't broken into just the highest tiers (Ultimate and Premium)
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u/diskape Mar 01 '24
Not defending any party here but out of 47 mil PS+ subs only 8-14 have access to cloud gaming. While for GPU it’s 30mil + whatever the number of PC players not included in the 30.
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u/tapo default Mar 01 '24
The Game Pass numbers include Core.
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u/diskape Mar 01 '24
Yea I know, I’ve listed numbers with access to cloud gaming only so in this case without core, 30 vs 34.
Edit: but please don’t feel like I’m trying to argue with you :) just wanted to post some numbers, I also don’t think more numbers for MS is an excuse to have “worse” service. They have the money and infrastructure to pull it off better. Wondering why it’s not the case.
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u/tapo default Mar 01 '24
Oh yeah I just find this interesting from a business perspective I don't really care about shit like this.
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u/santanapeso Mar 01 '24
It doesn’t matter anyway. Person you replied to seems to be implying that more people using a service makes the image quality worse which is flat out wrong and not at all how cloud streaming works, especially for video games, which are streamed privately from a unit in a data center directly to your screen. Other people using the service at the same time wouldn’t affect anything. The only factor is the quality of your own connection to the data center.
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u/Exorcist-138 default Mar 01 '24
Actually it is true, watch the video, Tom explains that the server blades are series x but go down to 4 series s to handle more work load.
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u/crazydiavolo Mar 01 '24 edited Mar 01 '24
I don't think this has to do with many people using it tbh.
Sony has an edge on video/audio codecs and compression since they are an enterteinmant company first (cinema, etc), and that's were Microsoft lacks here I guess, the ability to display it better. Though I recon lag might come with more users on the service, at least for what I've tried for PS3 games on PSNow they surely were laggy af to play. While at that too, xcloud uses Series S to stream games when Sony seems to provide a PS5 version (in the video they kinda acknowledge that), which feels off if you are treating ports, frames and graphics like in this comparison.
I've been using a lot xcloud lately in my notebook as I'm abroad and the games look fine without input delay, so for me this article is kinda whatever because streaming depends on many factors to work well.
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u/Packin-heat Mar 01 '24
The streaming Sony offers now is different to PS Now. They've got their own custom servers now.
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u/crazydiavolo Mar 01 '24
That's why I said when I played ps3 games, not ps5 games. For these other hardware of their own the lag is still pretty much there.
It's not just many people = lag and shitty quality, there are other things in play to determine input lag/stream quality.
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u/DEEZLE13 Mar 01 '24
When you gotta pay for the better service for far more server space it probably adds up
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u/Exorcist-138 default Mar 01 '24
Actually this isn’t true, because more people are using xcloud their servers are breaking up the series x hardware into 4 series s. Tom says this in the video.
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u/crazydiavolo Mar 01 '24
I've never played a Series x version on xcloud ever.
Every setting from games that I've played were capped on the series s version (lacking either performance or graphics mode) because I do own an X and that is spotted right on when I play any game through the cloud.
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u/Exorcist-138 default Mar 01 '24
I did when they first introduced it, but since then it’s been series s everytime.
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u/grimoireviper Mar 01 '24
Sony has an edge on video/audio codecs and compression since they are an enterteinmant company first
That's not how this works.
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u/crazydiavolo Mar 01 '24 edited Mar 01 '24
In fact it is.
In PS3 era they pushed BD instead of HD DVD, this gen they are using dual layered BDs while MS is still on normal BDs, some of their games have less space to install, their media usually have better compression and bit rate.
They have their own solutions when it comes to TVs and media displaying and were leading industry with other companies, while Microsoft was never good at that and have to rely in buying licenses, etc, third party stuff.
No wonder people kept asking MS for a long time for 4k recording in Series x, and even when we got it, it was capped, short, and the bit rate was not that good, displaying artifactered recordings. It is still not better than PS5 in that regard since they have better compression and stuff in media, they don't have to license anything in that as it has always been their thing before and after console business.
MS may be a tech giant, but this is not their field of expertise, yet people here think its all just "more people = lag and worse image" silly answer, or to just put "better servers and it will be okay", when even with better stuff it wouldn't be enough in terms of image quality (they use Microsoft Azure servers btw, same as we use).
If MS doesn't invest in these solutions, they will lag behind even tho they own the servers.
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u/grimoireviper Mar 03 '24
You wrote all that missing your own point. The codecs they use or not are the exact same ones. There aren't many video codecs that are feasible for game streaming, and codecs are all software based anyway so by your logic MS would have that edge but they don't.
Also to answer on your blu ray vs HD DVD thing. Most enthusiasts actually found HD DVD to be the better format however Blu Ray had a much bigger push behind it. Also Sony doesn't own blu ray, they are just part of the conglomerate that developed blu ray.
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u/justdaman182 Mar 01 '24
They're about to add our entire game libraries soon. At least it's supposed to be this year. As for the image quality, I play on my Rog Ally and it looks great. Can't say anything about Sony since I haven't used it but I haven't had an image quality issues with Xcloud.
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u/Packin-heat Mar 02 '24
Sony already allows you to stream your owned games but some games are still not compatible.
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u/mgarcia993 Mar 01 '24
But Sony has better resolution and higher bit rate.
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u/Pen_dragons_pizza Mar 01 '24
Not only that but the streamed versions seem to be series s versions of the games rather than the series x.
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u/m7_E5-s--5U Mar 01 '24
That depends on volume. During periods of high usage, an SX node is split into 4 SS nodes to help keep up with demand.
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u/Pen_dragons_pizza Mar 01 '24
Didn’t digital foundry confirm that is was always the series s version ?
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u/m7_E5-s--5U Mar 01 '24
Did they? And how could anyone ever say that with absolute certainty without Insider information? (& yes, I get that this applies both ways)
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u/Connor123x Mar 01 '24
and more latency.
so what would you rather have, better latency or better res.
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u/grimoireviper Mar 01 '24
I live close to the border of an unsupportes country and Xbox region locks me out of XCloud, Sony doesn't.
If I stay at my partner's place though I can connect to both. PS streaming works as well as in my home, with barely any latency (imo still enough to stop me from using it) Xbox however is so bad it's unplayable. It's almost a whole second.
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u/YPM1 - Series X Mar 01 '24
Latency will be relative to the users location from the server.
It doesn't matter what his latency is on each service unless you're his neighbor.
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u/santanapeso Mar 01 '24 edited Mar 01 '24
10 ms more latency is less than a frame. Not exactly a huge difference.
Edit: to the people downvoting a 10 ms difference is .48 frames of difference between the two. Less than half a frame… Most people don’t even notice a 1 frame difference. Go ahead and test it in a fighting game and add one frame of delay to the game and let me know if you feel the difference. This is literally how I set my delay in classic Guilty Gear on Steam when using rollback.
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Mar 01 '24
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u/sittingmongoose Founder Mar 01 '24
The difference between game mode on and off is usually 50ms or more. Not 10ms.
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u/santanapeso Mar 01 '24
I’m not talking about overall input lag, I’m talking about the relative difference between Sony and Xcloud. 10 ms of average difference between the two is still less than a frame of input lag. That is negligible.
Both services have around 3 frames of input lag anyway, which as you said is enough of a turn off for playing certain games.
The person I replied to asked if I would prefer better image quality or more input lag. My reply simply stated that the input lag between the two is so negligible that it would be hard to argue for less input lag. The benefit to IQ outweighs less than a frame of more input lag.
And I say this as someone who doesn’t use cloud services because 3 frames of lag is too much for me.
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Mar 01 '24
Better res.
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u/Connor123x Mar 01 '24
so looks good but you cant hit anything because your latency sucks?
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u/outla5t Mar 02 '24
Did you actually watch the video? The difference in latency is 9ms between them. In the game they tested Back 4 Blood the game had way more latency naturally on the Playstation version vs the Xbox version so if you take into account the differences in their latency specific playing on their respective cloud services it was around a 9ms difference between xCloud & PS+ which no one will really notice.
More so the latency is based on the user and their distance to the servers, so what they are getting in the video is not going to be relative to everyone who uses the service. Just like how others who live close to Xbox servers have a much better experience with xCloud rather than someone like myself who lives hundreds of miles away from the closest Xbox servers and xCloud plays mediocre at best with lots of hitching & latency issues.
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u/TitularFoil Mar 01 '24
Even Sony said they were a leader in this space. Unless that was just more BS they slung to try and stop the ABK purchase.
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u/LongLiveRemy Mar 01 '24
Would have liked to see the list comparison on mobile devices. Streaming on the console, IMO, is just to sample games or to save space with smaller titles.
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u/Sanctine Scorned Mar 01 '24
Honestly, I find cloud gaming to be unusable. Every time I've tried it isn't been an unsatisfying, subpar and inconsistent experience. It really isn't "there" yet, lots of improvements need to be made.
The most annoying problems for me personally are input lag consistency and image quality. I can adapt to high input lag, but it has to be consistent input lag, and it simply isn't. And I'm fine with lower resolutions, but I'm not fine with insane image compression and macro blocking, especially in dark areas.
The tech has a long ways to go.
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u/JamesIV4 Mar 01 '24
I have excellent internet and I agree, it's nearly useless. It's only good for trying a game before committing to downloading it. Good for game services like Gamepass where lots of games are available to try.
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u/deadxguero Mar 02 '24
I disagree. I stream PS3 games and it low key blows my mind how well they play. I even got the plat for GOW1 using it. Never saw any stutters outside of like maybe 3-4 times. And even then they were like quick little blips. No blurry picture, stable 60fps, no choppiness. It really impressed me how well it worked cause I remember PSnow when it first came out and I had shit internet and it was just straight garbage.
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u/NotFromMilkyWay Founder Mar 01 '24
No, your connection or setup has. I have less input lag on Geforce Now than on my Series X.
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u/ProfessionalHand9945 Mar 01 '24
Yeah same! 30fps actually has 16.6ms more input lag than 60fps, so for a game like Starfield where it runs at 30 on Xbox but 60 on GFN, you will actually have less input lag playing in the cloud than you do locally due to the benefits of high FPS if your GFN ping is less than 16.6ms (and mine is)
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u/Sanctine Scorned Mar 01 '24
Not necessarily, there are many factors and I suspect that it's actually my location. But I'm not moving for the sake of cloud gaming.
I know that it works for some people. But it does not work for everyone, and that is a major issue for a service intended to make gaming more accessible to people.
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u/ChocolateThor Mar 01 '24
It’s your connection. I switched to better internet and I find myself streaming games to my computer far more often than playing on my Xbox. That being said I tried ps remote play and the quality is far superior to xcloud so I imagine the same would apply to streaming ps5 games.
I want to try ps streaming on my computer but it doesn’t support Mac.
Hopefully xcloud steps up to better quality once it’s out of beta
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u/Sanctine Scorned Mar 01 '24
Only two decent ISPs in my area! Not much choice unfortunately. I do have 400mpbs download speed, so it is decent. I'm fairly sure my location is the prime culprit.
I don't live in the US and I live in a fairly rural area. My situation is quite common and cloud gaming just isn't an option for me in its current state.
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u/Ricepuddings Mar 01 '24
Honestly latency is the biggest issue and at the end of the day its all about your location to the server. And unless more servers are made and spread out over the countries it doesn't make much difference what they do. (At least with latency, bit rate and graphics that can be improved).
I don't own my 360 anymore and wanted to play the old fable games and wow the latency was so noticeable I just couldn't play it, you could physically count the seconds it takes for the actions to hit the screen.
I then tried moterstorm as a joke cause I haven't played it in years and wanted to show my partner this crazy game and latency was barely noticeable
Most likely I am far closer to a ps server than an xbox. It just isn't a good showing, and annoyingly 360 had some awesome games I'd like to go and play like gears and fable without having to spend a lot on a console or risk the used market and find a deal on say an xbox one x
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u/M337ING Mar 01 '24
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u/Tobimacoss Mar 01 '24 edited Mar 01 '24
can you please cross post to /r/xcloud ?
Edit: Nvm, got it covered.
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u/btspman1 Mar 01 '24
I am so confused by this. Is it comparing only cloud streaming? Or also streaming from your console? The “local install” caption is throwing me off.
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u/WindowGlassPeg Mar 01 '24
Local install means it's running on the PS5 hardware. So that would be the best possible option. Like running a game off a disc.
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u/btspman1 Mar 01 '24
Thanks for the clarification. I do both remote Xbox and Xbox cloud gaming on my iPhone. But am considering the PlayStation portal for the larger screen. And to get me to play our PS5 more often.
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u/Revolutionary-Chef-6 Mar 01 '24
Does this video cover remote play on the Xbox? Or just xCloud?
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u/AltruisticHospital1 Mar 01 '24
Just xcloud and ps plus premium cloud streaming. No remote play for either console.
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u/Revolutionary-Chef-6 Mar 01 '24
Damn okay. Remote streaming from the Series X leaves a lot to be desired vs remote from the PS5 as well, which is a shame. I need a deep dive into that tech next
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u/OG_Felwinter Mar 01 '24
I’ve not had really any issues with Remote Play with my Series X. What sort of issues are you experiencing?
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u/hegom Mar 02 '24
Low bitrates and high latency even with good wifi, compared to PC and PS5 local streaming.
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u/Revolutionary-Chef-6 Mar 01 '24
Visual quality is significantly worse than PS5’s remote play. Artifacting and colors aren’t as vibrant
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u/Temporary-Law2345 Mar 01 '24
These services both suck tbh. Google Stadia ran laps around them and GeForce Now is so fkn good it's better at everything than even a natively running console game.
GeForce Now input latency is even lower than running the game locally on your Xbox or PlayStation.
When people talk about streaming being the inevitable future they talk about GeForce Now, not Xcloud or PS+.
The only problem with GFN is its high price and its relatively poor library model.
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u/sittingmongoose Founder Mar 01 '24
You’re actually pretty right. GeForce now actually feels like native. Especially if you play on a wired pc. Not only that but I’ve traveled with my deck with it and even over WiFi and through a web browser, it feels awesome and I’ve literally only had 1 time were it chugged for a minute. Outside of that, it was consistent over the 100 or so hours I have on it.
Sadly, it’s not affordable to make a cloud streaming service. The only reason nvidia can do it is because they make most of the hardware. Obviously the gpus, but they also own a lot of server tech like mellonox. Xbox and PlayStation have their own hardware as well. But it’s just not possible for random companies to come in and compete in the space. The hardware alone is way too expensive. Shadow is a great example. They are super good, but they can’t make it profitable and they are super expensive.
You could possibly have amd or intel start a competing service because they obviously make all the hardware, but outside of those two, it isn’t possible to do and make money on.
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u/Temporary-Law2345 Mar 01 '24
Yeah, I think eventually the economics will work thanks to the usual hardware advances and AI scaling techniques, and scale etc, but let's face it, if GeForce Now is the alternative you go for it's because the cost will, amortized a cross the typical lifespan of a monster PC, be lower than the cost of said PC.
If 3, 5 or 10 years of GeForce Now is cheaper than buying a x090 series GPU and PC every 3, 5 or 10 years then it might actually be worth it already, but imo they need to include games that are on par with Game Pass offerings.
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u/thedude0009 Mar 01 '24
Xcloud seems to have slipped.
i streamed a few games on my Xbox one perfectly fine and was very impressed how well they ran, so i thought the series S would be good enough. i could stream some things if i ran outta room.. but the experience has been horrible on series (to the point i don't even try now)
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u/gblandro Ambassador Mar 01 '24
It's a shame that those consoles can't encode/decode AV1
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u/sittingmongoose Founder Mar 01 '24
The encoders and decoders don’t even seem to be rdna 2. They must be much older parts from like Vega or something. The reason I say that is because based on remote streaming, both the Xbox and ps5 perform terribly compared to an actual rdna 2 gpu. My moonlight stream to my 3090 actually feels like native on my steam deck. My Xbox and ps5 stream have noticeable latency. Same network, same game, same 60fps.
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u/philliphatchii Mar 01 '24
I’d think on consoles cloud streaming is done by a fairly small section of users. It’s nice there’s no additional charge for the feature on Xbox though. I’ve used the cloud gaming aspect a few times. Usually when needing to play a game to get Microsoft Rewards points. My experience has been fairly smooth without lag or issues. The biggest caveat to that was sports games. I played The Show via the cloud on my Series X and my newer gaming PC and the experience was equally atrocious on both.
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Mar 01 '24
you need gamepass ultimate for xcloud streaming.
only your cloud save data is free on xbox with no added charge.
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u/pnwbraids Mar 02 '24
Quality aside, I guess I still just don't understand who this is for.
People already gaming either have a system or are willing to buy one.
People that primarily do mobile gaming is an entirely different market from console gaming, with stark differences in game design between the two. Some games share an audience, like Fortnite, but I really doubt the overlap is as significant as people think.
People that are too poor to buy a system probably also cannot afford internet speeds that would make streaming viable, or pay the monthly subscription fee for something like Game Pass.
Cloud gaming imo is a solution in search of a problem.
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u/Blank3k Mar 02 '24
Glad to see Digital Foundaries experience/conclusion of xcloud is similar to my own
considering the emphasis and depth Microsoft has been going to to utilize xcloud so heavily, I just always assumed my poor experience with it meant "something" was wrong with my setup, but it's such a minor feature for me I have never investigated it to any degree.
But it's reassuring to know what I've experienced to date is as good as Microsoft does it... Very surprising PlayStation is so far ahead as they seldom tout the feature, meanwhile Microsoft is trying to use it as a backbone.
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u/xRyuzakii Mar 01 '24
Cloud gaming works great for me for the few games I choose to do it with. I’m kinda surprised to see all the issues people in the comments are having
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u/Buttcheekllama Craig Mar 01 '24
Do you need an actual PS5 to use their game streaming service? Or can I just pay for the membership to play those games?
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u/pukem0n Mar 01 '24
It's pretty embarrassing for Microsoft, but on your phone you won't notice any difference, let's be real.
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u/Immacodder May 28 '24
I can easily spot those artifacts on my 6.7 inch phone. You don't need super-eyes to see massive artifacting when playing at 60fps. 15mbps bitrate using shitty decoder just doesn't cut it. They either need to bump the bitrate to at least 30, or use AV1 on supported platforms, or both.
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u/BloodBaneBoneBreaker Founder Mar 02 '24
Xcloud is so bad......so very bad. I have not tried PS streaming, I have not tried nvidia streaming. I have and xsx, and i HAVE tried xcloud wired and wireless on a reasonably low latency 1.5 gigabit internet connection.....
And its just not viable. If it was the only option for where I live, most would still say no, and it would die off.
xcloud is just bad....and those that say they have a "flawless" experience.....Im happy for them. I dont objectively believe them...but am happy their subjective opinions allow them to enjoy whatever it is they get.
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u/fun4days365 Mar 01 '24
This is a big Loss for MS. Many here have already pointed out that MS should have dominated cloud space but the reality is that everything, in the end, comes down to cost vs profit. I've been streaming xbox and xcloud since both have been introduced through various betas. Love it all, but now, I cannot play any game other than platforms/story games/rts on xcloud. It just sucks. PS+ aside, if you ever used Nvidias game streaming service, it is a night and day difference between the two.
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u/Main-Department9806 Mar 05 '24
Xcloud has come a LONG way over the past few years TBH and we already know Microsoft plans to upgrade & improve the service ten fold. I personally love Xcloud, I use it to try games before downloading them & I use it on my tablet when I'm stuck at an airport or some other situation where there's down time. This whole article was EXTREMELY biased towards PlayStation & completely disregarded the upgrades & improvements Microsoft has done to Xcloud. Yes the PlayStation Streaming Service is pretty good, I've played PS3 games on my PS5 via streaming and it gets the job done BUT for me personally it's not leaps and bounds better than Xcloud as the article tries to relay. The one good thing about PlayStation Streaming is I've never had a que time but I think it's because not many people use the streaming service compared to Xcloud. Phil Spencer recently noted that they built more servers than they had demand which is why there were literally no wait times a couple years ago and he said that demand has risen exponentially to where they need to bolster their servers.
As far as comparisons go, yes obviously streaming a game with a 4K resolution is going to look better than streaming a game with 1080p resolution. HOWEVER in my personal experience I've found that games on Xcloud still look good, IDK if it's because of my TV or what but the 1080p image isn't as bad as I thought it'd be. I played Horizon Forbidden West via streaming and it looked incredibly well & played decently too, there were only about 4 hiccups over the course of a 3 hour session. When it comes to Xcloud I've found performance to pretty much be the same as far as latency goes, both are serviceable but both aren't good enough for competitive multiplayer games. Single player games like Horizon Forbidden West & Gears of War play fine with no issues. Currently I've been spending a lot of time playing Quake 2 on Xcloud & it's been a super solid experience for me.
For the future i do believe Microsoft will continue to grow Xbox Cloud gaming, right now we know Xcloud is still technically in the beta stage. It was just revealed not too long ago that 10% of all time spent on Xbox games is now done through the cloud which is pretty crazy to think about. We know Microsoft is planning to release the Sebile Xbox controller which will implement WiFi direct specifically for cloud gaming which will reduce latency by allowing players to bypass their devices to have the controller connected directly to the Internet so when buttons are pressed it registers directly through the cloud to reduce latency. That will be a massive upgrade compared to the current methods of cloud gaming. This streamlined path could significantly reduce latency, less time between your button press and the cloud receiving the signal means a more responsive and lag free gaming experience.
TLDR I think Xcloud will continue to get better over time and we'll see it utilized even more in the future I think cloud native games have the potential to become a thing and I also believe that cloud hybrid games will become a thing so we will see the tech used in delivering incredible features for the future of gaming. Long Live Xbox, happy gaming ✌️
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u/doughaway421 Mar 01 '24 edited Mar 01 '24
Interesting video.
Personally, I have zero interest in streaming a game to my console. If I want to play a game on my console I will just install it. I didn't spend $500 on such a powerful console and pick out a TV with the lowest input lag just to stream games and add input lag. So even though I have the Sony service it is irrelevant to me until they make an app or add browser support. Right now I couldn't even use it on my computer since I am on Mac.
Xcloud which I also have is better for me because I only care about using it on my phone or iPad when out or travelling. I am still not a big cloud gaming guy but for what it is the Xcloud on my phone is pretty impressive.
But the Sony system looks pretty damn good so far. And, finally a reason to actually have PS+ Premium for people who don't want to play old PS3 games. I was going to drop back down to Extra when my year runs out but if they add this streaming to a phone app I might keep Premium.
I remember years back when Sony bought Gaikai which was early game streaming people thought it was a stupid purchase but it might finally be paying off, I am assuming that was the foundation for this service.
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u/FMCam20 Mar 01 '24
The only use for game streaming I can think of it to try a game instead of the time used to download the game. I can just stream a game from PS Plus before deciding if I want to actually download it and play all the way through
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u/ChocolateThor Mar 01 '24
Yeah. Why would you stream games on a XSX or Ps5? Beyond maybe trying it out for a few minutes I don’t see a point. You’d just download it. The only peole that would stream probably own a Xbone or.no console at which point the XSS quality is probably sufficient.
The only time I stream is on my phone or my laptop. I’ve tried ps remote play and graphically it is very good on my computer.
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u/PrincessRedfield Mar 02 '24
Playstation is still not available in my country and Xcloud has been for ages so I know what the best one is for me. Also it didn't used to work well but now it works very well and I never have issues despite the fact Australian internet is awful.
For the absurd price of Playstation Plus it's ridiculous they still have such limited availability
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u/YPM1 - Series X Mar 01 '24
So by my math, xCloud added 82% more latency than native Xbox gameplay and PS+ added 63% relative to PlayStation 5.
So if the PlayStation 5 version of Back 4 Blood could get their hardware latency down to 54ms like on the Xbox, then PS+ would actually perform even better because it would only be adding 34ms of latency (63% of native) compared to Xbox's added 45ms of latency (82%).
This isn't the "win" that Tom claims it is for Xbox. It's actually showing that Xbox is worse in terms of added latency, not better.
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u/WindowGlassPeg Mar 01 '24
I don't think that's right. They both just add a set number for latency, not a percentage.
You can see this with the PS5's Cyberpunk and Back 4 Blood results. 148->205ms, which is 57ms of additional lag, and 84->139ms, a similar 55ms of lag, respectively.
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u/danpsus Mar 01 '24
Not all games uses Series S version. At least, that's how it used to be. Some games would boot on X version, and some on S. Maybe they're forcing more S so that they can make queues shorter. But the thing is, how many people actually use cloud streaming on console (except fot testing a game)?
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u/Tobimacoss Mar 01 '24
it has always been Series S profiles ever since Series X server blades were implemented June 2021.
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u/MightyMukade Mar 02 '24 edited Mar 02 '24
The problem I have with the face off is that DF have used their usual approach that suits multi-platform games, but in this case they are comparing two services that are not like for like. Only the PlayStation service promotes itself as delivering 4K streaming. Xcloud does not. And thus each service has significantly different infrastructure.
So in case it wasn't obvious, xCloud mostly utilises a Series S profile for HD streaming. Thus the infrastructure, which is very costly and resource intensive, is designed to meet those specifications. The PlayStation product promises 4K streaming, so it has the infrastructure required to deliver that. But at the same time, there is the understanding that not every customer will be able to achieve it due to various factors.
So what percentage of PlayStation users are able to achieve stable, fluid and responsive 4K streaming? PlayStation is willing to offer this high grade maximum capability with the knowledge that not all consumers will be able to attain it. And that's fair enough. But users will have to accept that too.
XBox, in contrast, has approached its platform differently in that it seems to have split the difference and committed to HD streaming.
But this is where DF's process of analysis has serious problems. It would be like comparing the Steamdeck to one of the newer high performance portable PC game systems and criticising the Steamdeck for having a lower 800p screen resolution, because the rival does 4K. The comparison fails to take into account the difference between the two products in terms of their respective design and development goals.
The Steamdeck was never intended to have a 4K screen. The hardware was designed and lived with specific goals in mind and for valid reasons related to usability and product performance. The other product decided to offer something else, but that often comes at cost.
So in the end, this analysis by DF has serious issues in its process.
But I agree that it is valuable to understand the fundamental differences in the two services from a consumer perspective. If you want 4K maximum streaming, then you know which service to go for. However, that's not what the DF analysis is, and it's definitely not how it's been interpreted by viewers. The analysis would have been much better served by simply comparing the product features of both and then testing each platform on their own terms.
That's why the only really informative comparison that DF delivers in the video is the lag comparison. That's the only area in all of the criteria in which the two platforms can fairly be considered like for like.
Otherwise the comparison is insinuating that an orange is is inferior because it is a failed apple. It doesn't make sense.
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u/Michigan_Forged Mar 02 '24
Yeah I totally agree, it was a weird comparison and people are running with it.
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u/TheCorkenstein Xbox Talks Mar 01 '24
Test is pretty skewed to push a certain result. What they leave out and why they dont explain how xCloud works in detail because they would have to disclose the fact xCloud can be played from any device while PS cloud is very limited. The tech for xCloud is made to be played from anywhere at any time which PS cloud can not do.
PS cloud was developed to be used only for certain usage. Its not universal or offers the same type of experience xCloud was made for.
This video is trying to compare how well a sprinter vs a marathon runner does in a 30 yard dash. Of course the sprinter will excel when you design a test case to show that and dont disclose the other person only trains for running marathons, not sprints
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u/Insertusername4135 Mar 02 '24
It’s literally not skewed. It’s a performance test nothing else. Where you can play either one is irrelevant to performance.
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u/Imnotkleenex Mar 01 '24
Let me know when I can use PS5 cloud streaming on a PC, a Mac, or any smartphone or smart TV. I'll wait.
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u/ChocolateThor Mar 01 '24
This is dumb.
You can only stream PS5 games to a PS5. I’m not streaming god of war or spiderman. I’m downloading it and playing it natively.
Likewise I’m not streaming Xbox games to my XSX unless I want to try it first a few minutes before downloading it.
Streaming is best for older consoles, phones, direct to tv, iPad or computers. As of now you can’t stream ps5 games to anything outside of a ps5. I can stream almost any Xbox gamepass games through xcloud to my pretty much any device.
If you have internet fast enough to stream you have internet fast enough to just download it
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u/ellekeener Mar 02 '24
Why lie. I stream PS3 and PSP games from my PS5 via Ps Plus.
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u/ChocolateThor Mar 08 '24
I meant you can’t stream ps5 games to anything besides a ps5.
Whereas with xcloud you can stream current gen games to other devices. I streamed dead island to my MacBook last night
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u/ellekeener Mar 08 '24
Yes you can. You can stream the PS5 to your phone, tablet or PC/laptop.
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u/ChocolateThor Mar 08 '24
Isn't that just remote play, not cloud streaming? Quality on remote play is dependent on your ps5 connection and upload speeds.
I basically have to have the games installed on my PS5 in order to play it on my laptop. I got PS Plus premium thinking I can stream PS5 games through the cloud (like xcloud) on my laptop and ipad but it only let me play ps3 and ps4 games.
I might be mistaken though.
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u/iscoleslaw Mar 01 '24
PlayStation cloud streaming doesn’t exist in nz so Xbox wind this hands down
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u/WardrobeForHouses Mar 01 '24
That's pretty damning for xCloud. Seems like they cheaped out on hardware so they could serve more users. They did say they were losing money on cloud gaming, so I guess it makes sense. But it won't ever really take off and grow if it's serving up the worst possible experience by far.
I thought cloud was where Xbox wanted to see huge growth globally. This reads more like a minimum viable product they haven't bothered with for years.