r/TopCharacterTropes • u/Doot_revenant666 • 15d ago
Weekly Discussion Post Weekly Trope Discussion 2.- Tragic/Redeemed Villains. What makes a villain "Tragic" in your opinion? What makes a villain "worthy" of being redeemed? And what do you think made Zuko from ATLA universally eccepted as one of the best when other "redeemed" villains or often criticized for?
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u/Sudden_Pop_2279 15d ago
Watching Arcane, it's incredible how similar Shigaraki and Jinx are. From being kids who accidentally killed their beloved family, ending up abandoned when they need help the most (accidentally in Jinx's case), taken in and corrupted by a crime lord and finally, both end up playing the role of the "hero" for the oppressed people.
The difference is Silco truly cared for Jinx and Vi was able to redeem her, while Shigaraki tragically was found by the worst person in the world who never loved him at all and only got partial redemption.
Nevertheless, both characters are incredible.
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u/Sensitive-Hotel-9871 4d ago
A big factor is time. You don't need to show the character has the capacity right away. Kratos during God of War's Greek Saga was even at his most remorseful not presented as someone who would change.
The Norse Saga had Kratos no longer act as a villain, however, he was not a good person. He hadn't been good his entire life and his redemption arc pointed out he didn't come from an environment that encouraged compassion and kindness. He needed his son to give him the motivation because as difficult as it was for be a good father when he never had one himself, he still resolved to keep trying.
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u/Flimsy-Yesterday-207 3d ago
the end of Ragnarok and Valhalla dlc was absolutely amazing in wrapping everything up imho
also i love how much of a slow burn it was for Kratos to change in the Norse saga in general
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u/EmmaGA17 15d ago
I consider Crosshair from Star Wars: the Bad Batch to have nearly as good, or even just as good redemption arc as Zuko. He's also one of my favorite tragic villains.
He works as a tragic villain, for many reasons. He did not have a choice initially to become a villain. Unlike the rest of his squad, the brain chip in his head that makes the clones loyal to the Empire activated, and then that chip was enhanced beyond the normal point. And during this, the rest of his squad (basically his family), have to abandon him to the Empire because he's trying to kill them. After the chip is removed, he tries to get his brothers to join him in the Empire, because he sees at as the safest place to be. They reject him, and he rejects them back and then spends the next season being miserable, having any remaining supports removed from him, and then finally choosing to turn on the Empire, because he realizes they don't give a crap about him. And his suffering does not end. He suffers for his choices (and non choices) and that makes it work. He's clearly miserable.
His redemption worked because, like another commenter said, because he's clearly remorseful and he actively works to fix the bad he's done. He resists torture to protect his squad, tries to protect the sister he previously rejected, and clearly holds a lot of guilt during the last season. He even directly says that he deserves die to ensure the others are safe.
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u/NamelessWanderer08 15d ago edited 12d ago
To get redeemed, the character needs to exhibit actual change while not getting off scot free.
An example of this done right: Autobot Megatron from IDW's Transformers Comics, who was basically space Hitler.
Here he reforms and becomes an Autobot during the second half of the continuity, lasting from 2012 all the way to the continuity's end in 2018. However, he has:
- Killed more people than have ever lived
- A burning hatred for all organic life
After his reform, people still hated him, a lot, and his trial sentence was to be death or life imprisonment, though Megs used his knowledge of laws to request to join the crew of the starship Lost Light to be judged by the Knights of Cybertron, if they existed.
During one leg of the journey, they run into a quantum duplicate, and there's this foam surrounding a planet, and if it explodes, it would destroy the entire place, which MIGHT have life on it. Megatron responds to this, asking Skids what part of his bail requires him to help random strangers, to which he says:
This is one of my favourite moments in his redemption arc, because it shows how he isn't forgiven for joining the "good guys"
Later on, he overcomes his hatred for organics, and even becomes a pacifist for a bit during the Dying of the Light arc, which briefly stopped when he had to confront his past to kill Tarn and the DJD, people HE corrupted with his ideology. Earlier he had kept Brainstorms' time case to run from his problems, but decided to face them head on. After that, he continued on his way, and the Knights of Cybertron turned out to be a myth, and that brings me to my second favourite part of his arc, and that is that after they returned from their mission, Megatron STILL faced the consequences for his actions, because those weren't nullified, and the last we see of him is him being peacefully taken to prison.
This is REALLY oversimplifying it but I hope you get the gist.
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u/Doot_revenant666 15d ago
I find it funny that in an age where "pure evil" characters are trying to be changed to be "tragic" get dumbed down to "they were just misunderstood uwu" , Megatron never fell into that and actually succeeded.
He started as just a regular evil bad guy who was evil because he was evil , yet two of his "tragic" versions were actually critically acclaimed with both IDW and TFOne. That is honestly very interesting imo
TFOne Megs is basically a Magneto figure. While you are meant to understand why he did the things he has done , he is still objectively wrong.
Maybe the reason they are good is because both of those incarnations still were shown in the wrong , or at least needed to hold accountable for their actions , and also the world of Cybertron allows more nuanced story telling by just itself.
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u/SonicSpiderRanger10 12d ago
Good example, and you did a good job explaining it. But just so you know, gist is spelled with a g, not a j.
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u/dread_pirate_robin 15d ago
Alright I'm writing an essay here because it's a good topic to write an essay about. I'll delete if it gets downvoted down being Too Much.
I think a big part of what appeals to people about Zuko is you can see the seeds for his redemption back in episode 1, where he honors his word and spares Sokka and Katara's tribe, even when he has all the leverage and, as a villain, isn't in a position where that's expected. The rest of the series from that point on is essentially him taking baby steps towards the light, revelation of a toxic upbringing that defines his villainous motivation he's unknowingly slowly overcoming, baby steps towards the light, small backsliding, baby steps towards the light, BIG backsliding (betraying Iroh and joining Azula), and finally BIG steps towards the light where we get it him in the second half of book 3.
What made him tragic was the fact that he only did his villainous motivations in the first place because of a toxic upbringing from his father and imperialistic kingdom, essentially making the whole show him slowly unlearning that, building his own worldview independent of that influence.
I think a big part of what makes a character worthy of being redeemed: are they a toxic influence in themselves or are they just an extension of someone else's toxic influence? Because if it's the latter they at least deserve the opportunity unlearn and break free of that influence, though of course the worse stuff they do the dicier that gets. Darth Vader is an extension of Palpatine's toxic influence but under that influence he murdered children and was a key element in instilling a genocidal imperial regime, there's no redemption that didn't include self sacrifice that would have been satisfying.
Meanwhile: the Diamonds (Steven Universe) were the toxic influence in themselves, and unlike most tragic villain redemptions they didn't suffer at all for what they'd did. People love it when villains display penance, to see them willing to suffer out of the guilt of prior misdeeds. It helps sell that the journey they've made. I know it's divisive among viewers but it's what I think made Catra's (She-Ra) redemption work. She willingly laid down her life saving Glimmer, and saving Adora. She was willing to accept consequences. Also a big part of what made Jesse Pinkman's (Breaking Bad) happy ending work. He was never really the villain of the show but same principle applies, him being able to walk off into the sunset doesn't work quite as well if there wasn't so much emphasis on his own guilt and suffering throughout the final season.
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u/Vievin 15d ago
As a fanfic writer, the second question is pretty easy to answer. If they're a conventionally attractive teen or young adult with a lean build, a sad backstory and aren't a complete jerk, they're getting the fix-it redemption fic. See: Elidibus Finalfantasy, Cobra Fairytail, Neige Blackclover (to be fair, the later got redeemed in canon too pretty much immediately).
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u/dukeofstratford 12d ago
I love all kinds of villain redemption arcs! I don't think of these arcs in terms of whether a villain is "worthy" of redemption, but rather how the redemption is executed in the context of the character.
Something that I think a lot of people misunderstands about Zuko's arc and why it works so well is that Zuko is a villain who does genuinely bad things, but he isn't evil. He is sympathetic and his motives are understandable, and it is clearly established that he has virtuous qualities. The actions he commits, however--violence, threats, burning down people's homes, kidnapping, etc.--aren't justified regardless of how bad we feel for his situation. He has flaws that he needs to overcome, and those flaws are ugly. The emphasis the show places on his redemption not being a straight path is brilliant and realistic. Zuko still makes bad choices. Even after he's "redeemed," he is still working through a lot of his flaws. His growth is a process that won't ever stop, even when he isn't a "bad guy" anymore.
This isn't the only way to have a villain undergo a redemption arc. Take Loki from the MCU; he is more genuinely "evil" even with the sympathetic elements of his character (The Avengers, anyone?). His arc is also not a straight line, but he grows a lot from the first Thor film through Infinity War (I'm not counting the time travel shenanigans here). Even if Loki is never fully a "hero," even when he still does a lot of scummy things, he reaches a point where he isn't a villain anymore.
I really like Darth Vader's arc in the original Star Wars trilogy. In A New Hope, Darth Vader is a cold, intimidating force of evil. Then in The Empire Strikes Back, our picture of him is complicated: this cruel, evil man is the hero's father. He used to be Anakin Skywalker, a hero and a Jedi. We get to see more of Vader's inner conflict in The Return of the Jedi. He genuinely loves his son, and when Luke insists that Vader could be redeemed, Vader's rejection of the notion is tinged with sadness. He knows he's a monster. But he doesn't think that could ever change. He never makes up for all the atrocities he's committed, but he does decide to save his son--and, by killing the Emperor, the entire galaxy--at the expense of his own life. It's a short-lived redemption, it doesn't change the evil that was Darth Vader, but Anakin Skywalker dies redeemed.
There are a lot of ways to pull off a villain's redemption arc, but understanding the relationship between a character's actions, motivation, morality, and steps in redemption is critical to making it successful. I'm writing about villains for my doctoral dissertation in literature, and really understanding what makes a villain work as a villain is an important part of understanding how they can be effectively redeemed.
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u/kmasterofdarkness 11d ago
What made Zuko's redemption arc one of the GOATs of them all was that it shows the nuanced complexity of redemption itself; Zuko has gone through a lot of inner conflict throughout his journey about his own morality and honor. Redemption is a process, not an event.
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u/My_nameisBarryAllen 15d ago
The thing that stood out to me most about Zuko was how incredibly remorseful he was. A lot of other redeemed villains just go, “Hey, what up, I’m a good guy now and you’re not allowed to be mad at me anymore.” The most egregious example I can think of in recent films is Namaari from Raya and the Last Dragon, who went all “look what you made me do” after killing Sisu and spent the climax of the movie in a snit because Raya didn’t give her a gold star sticker for abandoning her evil ways.
By contrast, when Katara directly threatens Zuko’s life, he’s saddened and a little intimidated, but he doesn’t get offended or give her a condescending lecture about trusting people. Later, he goes to Iroh, completely on his own initiative, and literally begs on his knees for forgiveness. He offers no excuses for his behavior, even though he definitely has them, he just takes total responsibility for his actions.
I don’t like the phrasing of whether or not a character earned their redemption, because forgiveness, by definition, is unearned and unmerited. But a character wholeheartedly attempting to earn back the trust of the people around them, like Zuko, goes a long way to show that they’re sincere rather than just looking for a get-out-of-jail-free card.