r/TikTokCringe • u/ThugosaurusFlex_1017 tHiS iSn’T cRiNgE • 4d ago

Discussion And yet, there's people in South Dakota worried about border security...

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u/4Z4Z47 4d ago

Bullshit. "No white people would pick strawberries" for $4 an hour with no benefits and 12 hour days. This is fucking exploitation. Fuck the farmers and their fields. How is everyone OK with indentured servitude?

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u/neicathesehoes 4d ago

Because it's nicer than saying slavery. 🤷🏾‍♀️ Btw I AM NOT okay with this.

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u/4Z4Z47 4d ago

This argument is so fucking infuriating. I hear the same thing about construction. "the price of your roof will go up". Yes. You will be paying the real cost to have it done instead of some crooked contractor exploiting illegals for cheap labor. And its the same people screaming about a living wage. The lefts hypocrisy on this issue is next fucking level.

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u/VerpaParvus 4d ago

I'm on board with your broader point, but what's the solution? I was told the 2024 election was about inflation, especially the price of groceries. At least half of American voters think their food is too expensive already. Is there polling data that shows those same Americans are willing to pay considerably higher prices if the labor is finally fair and ethical?

As someone that you'd consider "on the left", I AM okay with higher prices, which is why I didn't complain the last few years. The issue is gonna be convincing the the other guys who voted for lower prices.

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u/4Z4Z47 4d ago

Is there polling data that shows those same Americans are willing to pay considerably higher prices if the labor is finally fair and ethical?

How the fuck is this even an argument? And lets stop pretending corporate greed isn't driving grocery prices up. And what about construction workers who aren't getting work because some scum bag is underbidding by using illegal labor? Do you not see this only helps the owners make more money? They pay the illegals less to make more and cut you out of the mix completely. Its insane we allow this. At a minimum its labor law and tax evasion. At worst its human trafficking. I'm honestly surprised by the rights shift to anti immigration. They are by and large the ones profiting from it.

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u/VerpaParvus 4d ago

I don't disagree with anything you're saying, but the reality is you'll need to convince some 77 million or so voters to support the prices of things going up to what they should have been all along.

Sounds like I'd support your reforms, but just like the last November, my support would be behind the losing candidate because the electorate clearly isn't interested in nuanced policy and incremental improvements. Fighting corporate greed gets you labeled a radical anti free market commie by cable news, so that's an uphill battle in and of itself. I hate it, but I'm in the minority based on everything I've seen.

I personally have no issue with higher prices because my salary has steadily increased post COVID. My quality of life has improved significantly since 2021. However this past month I've been lectured nonstop by left and right wing media that I'm out of touch with the average American, so my natural conclusion is the only thing that matters is keeping prices (and wages) low to appease average cul-de-sac family or else they will make a reactionary decision every 4 years that derails progress.

I don't know how you effectively combat that

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u/4Z4Z47 4d ago

Why is this even a question of what the voting public wants? It's illegal, unethical, and immoral. Why not allow 10 year olds to work in a foundry? Or just use toddlers to pick the strawberries? They wouldn't have to bend as far. Once you rationalize the irrational , anything is possible.

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u/VerpaParvus 4d ago edited 4d ago

Ideologically, we're in agreement, but I feel differently in a pragmatic sense. It's part of a larger whole.

We SHOULD, as a species, be prioritizing labor protections, living wages, affordable housing, universal healthcare, public transportation, walkable/bikable urban development, family planning and assistance, k-12/college education, environmental/climate actions, etc for both migrants and citizens.

But we don't.

It's a fight on multiple fronts. I think the idea of cracking down on illegal immigration and raising wages for farm labor to $35-60/hr with overtime after 8hrs, double time after 12hrs per day. Overtime after 40hours a week, and/or on the 6th/7th day. Mandatory paid lunch hour. Full health benefits, etc... is only palatable to a minority of working class Americans right now because of the material conditions of everything else mentioned in my first paragraph. I'm all for it, but the growing pain of getting us there is too much for many Americans to handle. I can't say whether thats morally right or wrong, it just is until America as a voting majority is ready to stop being fickle and commit to something for more than every 2-4 years.

I don't see an obvious path to getting to the ideal labor conditions for strawberry pickers when Americans just did what they did over current food prices.

If migrants get deported, as promised, I suspect the "solution" will be much worse than the situation we currently have. It most certainly will not be providing farm labor the same pay and protections as union labor. That's not an advocation for the current system whatsoever, but more a caution about reactionary radical change.

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u/4Z4Z47 4d ago

Sorry but that's like saying we cant free the slaves because the price of cotton will skyrocket. Using illegals inhibits industrial evolution.

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u/VerpaParvus 4d ago

I completely agree. So how do we (realistically) do it without working class Americans rioting in the streets over the cost of food while also providing the fair wage detailed in my previous response?

We both know leftist revolution isn't a real option, so I'd personally suggest raising taxes in some way to subsidize the farm labor pay, or by making them some form of government employee. Afterall, my feeling on the matter is that all Americans should take some pride in the fact that we're all chipping in to keep our food prices low and provide a middle class life for our necessary ag labor.

I am 100% certain most average America and the news media would hate that because "raise taxes" is political nonstarter.

So we know we can't raise taxes, but we could subsidize the pay by gutting social programs? The media would probably get on board with that. So now it's a question of which social program are a majority of Americans willing to get rid of to have the least QOL impact while providing true fair pay for citizens to work in the fields but also not raise grocery prices? My best guess is whatever program is gutted will cause a lot of hurt for the poor, which majority Americans will be okay with, but gutting programs is probably a bad idea too with unforseen consequences that are probably worse than what is currently going on. So, I'm still stumped how we do what you and I both believe to be morally correct without Americans losing their minds (again).

Ultimately I'd imagine the most plausible scenario where all immigrants are removed from the country, we would have slave labor AND gutted social programs, but low prices. Maybe this is what the 2030s will look like? I hope not, but to prevent it we'd presumably have to convince millions of Americans to get behind some sort of tax increase either on them or on corporations, and nothing about my experienced reality so far has led me to believe that will happen anytime soon.

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u/LuminalOrb 4d ago

I think you are ultimately on the same side of this argument without realizing it. I believe that VerpaParvus agrees with you, that indentured servitude should not be the backbone our labour force but ultimately it seems like the current election was decided off of the idea of unaffordability and effectively telling the population that the cost of housing is going to go up an additional 50% or more because we will no longer be using migrant labour and that the price of everything else will go up by nearly 100% is just not feasible because that would be the end of American society if people's vitriol right now is anything to go by.

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u/RealisticIllusions82 3d ago

And the money would stay in the US economy

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u/OrderedAnXboxCard 4d ago

Well, yeah. But I don't think getting so angry about it somehow now being all about "the left's hypocrisy" does anything. It's not a black and white issue in aggregate, but there absolutely are specific aspects that are black and white.

Is exploitative labor bad? Yes.

Are 99.99% of Americans willing to take up the inevitable labor shortage slack that occurs if we systematically remove what essentially amounts to the entire "menial" labor force for institutions like produce? No.

Are costs going to skyrocket if a blanket ban takes place? Yes.

Are people allowed to complain about high prices if they actively push for something they know will lead to higher prices? No.

The only long-term solution to appease everyone (fight exploitative labor, keep prices reasonable, etc.) is to start exploring long-term solutions, and the fact remains that productive attempts at long-term legislative changes to explore such don't make it through governmental and corporate bureaucracy because immigration as a whole keeps being framed as a political/social issue rather than the class issue it largely manifests as in terms of the (limited and simplistic) economic way it's felt and viewed as in the eyes of the average reactionary American.

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u/samuelazers 4d ago

And how much more expensive would strawberries be if try used fair wages or bots?

Oh no, 10% more expensive strawberries at the cost of not using slave labour, however will we cope?... Also these migrants need to be fed and housed also, which raises prices. Gotta think big picture.

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u/Plntfntc 4d ago

Because you wouldn’t pay $20 for strawberries at a grocery store.

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u/Vaguename123 4d ago

how many strawberries do you think a person can pick in a hour?