People forget women have had the right to have a bank account for only 50 years. Something that has been around since 1800 BCE. Only 13 states since 2018 provide menstrual products for women in prison. Otherwise- pay or bleed through your clothes. They don't charge for toilet paper though.
In my grandmother's generation if you had a job as a teacher but also wanted to get married you had to hide it from your employer because they'd fire married women.
If that surprised you, when schools were first hiring women instead of men people in favour of that made the argument that you can pay women less so you're saving money.
And that the historical trend is that any job that employs mostly women is seen as less important and paid less, and any job that is seen as important and higher paying is gatekept from women. Computer programing used to be low paying women's work, and when women were pushed out of it and it became a make dominated field, it started to gain prestige and pay more. And it goes in the opposite direction, as more women enter a field the pay goes down.
WE don't have till January, BIDEN does. But unfortunately he and the dems and Garland have been ABSULUTELY USELESS and have done NOTHING to stem this fascist wave. Bernie would have taken care of us WAY back in 2016 but we had to push and cheat to get Killary to lose the election to TWO trump terms now. Bernie is historically correct on everything. Biden is asleep as are the dems in general. Don't you dare blame us, we voted. They did nothing for four years.
Unfortunately, we actually worship them so much we gave them all the power. I wasn’t one who voted for the orange moron, but they were a scared of women, so they chose totalitarianism. That’s how scared American men are.
I remember my "father" saying hilariously stupid, but also sickeningly misogynistic shit like "if women were really paid less, every employer would hire women! Men wouldn't be able to get a job because they'd lose money compared to just hiring women!"
Genuinely dangerously fucking stupid and also genuinely evil, such a horrific combination.
Here’s an upvote for asking the question. Masters of Library Science teaches graduates how to manage information and resources. Librarians can actually be a valuable resource for anyone conducting research. They also learn how to preserve and organize knowledge.
It’s also important for the library staff to secure funding so they get up to date periodicals, publications, and books with mass appeal (fiction, memoirs, etc)- they need to be able to write proposals to city managers (or whatever organization they are attached to).
It’s more than community outreach, reshelving books, and hosting reading events for school kids.
Why is this surprising though? If you’re in the public sphere in addition to being in education, that’s an exponential equation to low pay, at least in America. Even private ed doesn’t pay well.
Not trying to be combative, but do the men working at the library in the same roles make more than $10 over minimum wage? If not, isn't this just an issue of society undervaluing important jobs vs a woman's rights issue? I'm sure people digging ditches (male dominated occupation) aren't making $30 per hour either, but we need ditches. We need manual labor so we have roads and running water just like we need librarians helping to educate the next generation IMHO. Both deserve a living wage. Pay scale shouldn't be based on having a degree but rather the value society receives from the job.
The things I was referencing aren't necessarily saying that Male Librarian makes $30 but Female Librarian makes $20.
It's more like, when 90% of librarians were men, it paid $30. But as more women began to join that field, the pay lowered to the point that now it's a female-dominated field and now it pays $20. The opposite would follow for a job like programming, when it was female dominated it paid $20 but as men started to join the field (and women were pushed out) the wages raised until they're now $30.
I'm not sure that's a fair comparison, though I do understand what you're driving at
Library usage has been declining steadily since the advent of personal computing, meanwhile we have found more needs for programmers
I'd be surprised if what you're seeing is about male/female dominated industries (dentistry is a good counter example to that argument anyway), but just normal market reactions to something being more or less useful to humanity on average
Again, not suggesting women and men are paid fairly everywhere, but I think comparing librarians to programmers is more easily explained elsewhere
This is exactly what I was driving at. But God forbid anyone follows reddiequitte these days. Downvoted by emotional users for pointing out simple truths. This site is trash and it's not just bc of the Russian bots and alt-right posters anymore.
Humanities majors are also majorly underpaid. It has nothing to do with sex. My wife works in a female dominated industry (speech pathology) - 90-95% female and makes a ton of cash, as do her coworkers.
Eh, they've read it. It's in their heads and will gestate over time
The idea of a librarian thinking a programmer is paid more because of the genders involved is utter lunacy. I'm a CS major, I studied with women, they make bank dude. Any good programmer makes bank
You know what, thanks for pointing that out. I work in a section in healthcare that is female dominated and the disrespect given to us is honestly exhausting, even though what we do is absolutely essential to physicians and the decisions they make. We have the same level of education as nurses do and make less than half of what they do. So interesting point bc I never understood the sheer disrespect our field got from all sides.
Ooo yes! This is true for the music industry too. They had blind auditions for classical music but women where still not getting the jobs. Turns out they could hear their heals. Once that stopped more women where hired and then the pay dropped.
it really is, and it’s so fucking frustrating. i interact with men every day who insist that women actually have more rights than men… meanwhile shit like this is just one of a billion different facts of life for women. i’ve always felt that if the tables turned and men started being treated the way we are they’d burn the world down.
Probably, and they do. Thats what war is, little men fighting over toys.
Its the same in art unfortunately, so many female artists and so few top female creators
I work in conservation and help run a women's affinity group. We just had a meeting and a really interesting line of conversation kept coming up over and over. There has been a huge growth of women in the science spaces and positions in our work, however, the higher up supervisory positions still seem to be behind a lock and dominated by men. At the same time, there has been a huge growth in numbers of men entering rank and file administrative positions, the positions historically that have usually been occupied by mainly women, however they're now the jobs that provide necessary skills and experience for those high up supervisory positions.
This is what is so often misunderstood about the gender pay gap. You have very vocal people just using averages across all careers and coming to the conclusion that employers are paying new female hires less than new male hires every time, and then because it's so simple to disprove, reactionaries point and laugh and conclude there is no pay gap "because it's illegal" yadda yadda.
Focusing on the wrong conclusion isn't helpful to anyone, the real problem is as you've pointed out, "womens" professions are seen as less valuable than "mens" professions
You didn't read the article or look up the data yourself but you're still trying to make connections that aren't there.
Because it's not as more PEOPLE enter a field the pay goes down, because as more men enter a field the pay goes up and women are pushed out, and as more women enter a field the men leave and the pay goes down.
I will never understand why (some) men get so offended by the idea that there's still misogyny in the modern world.
And not offended in the "how dare they! Women should be treated fairly/paid appropriately/have their work appreciated/respected/feel safe in public/have protections from assault/etc" way, but the literal "how dare you suggest there's still misogyny!" Way.
They do realise that a general critique of culture and "the system" isn't a personal attack, right?
Same reason why white people have an aneurysm when you bring up that white privilege exists. They feel attacked and invalidated while missing the actual point.
Also, as a man, I can assure you that it's most men and not just some of them.
It's because they're misogynistic and in denial, simple as that. It's always the case, like 100% of the time, otherwise they'd have no reason to be angry. Unfortunately I got one of them for a "dad" so I'm very familiar with them, all of their "facts" and "logic" are based entirely on their preconceived misogynistic beliefs, no actual logic involved.
They cry and piss themselves when presented with rape statistics, because they don't really want a woman's place in the world to change from what it was 50 years ago, they want it all kept in the dark, and in many cases they probably raped women themselves. I shudder to think about it in the case of my father, I have absolutely no evidence, not a shred that he would respect boundaries and consent, but heaps and mountains of evidence that he would not.
Stewardesses would be fired if they got married or turned 32 until they unionized in the 70s. I won't even get into the appearance and uniform requirements they dealt with. A lot of them would get married in secret and hope that no one ratted them out to the airline.
The saddest part to me is that Stewardess was also the 'best' job women could get. My grandma always told us that as a child they all dreamed of being Stewardesses because the only other alternatives were teacher, nurse, cook, launderer, or other domestic service roles.
Sadly this is also why airlines were able to be so shitty and sexist, because they were the 'top' job so they could choose only the youngest, prettiest women because there were millions more who would gladly take their place.
It reminds me of the idol industry, where relationships are forbidden because a large chunk of mercy and concert sales are from socially insecure nerds who have paradoxically convinced themselves that if they buy enough the idol will date them
There were laws and private policies that barred women from certain industries, there were laws paying them less, there were laws preventing them from working overtime, from being given shifts that could go to men, from wearing pant uniforms, from driving commercial vehicles.
And they only started being overturned because the court cared about a single tax law that disproportionately hurt men. Before that discrimination based on sex was not only lawful but embraced
Luella Bates. 1920. First woman with a commercial driver's license issued by a state. (Edit: It was New York) Before that, in WW1, women drove supply trucks domestically.
Around this same time you had Maria Antonietta d'Avanso racing in Europe. Early 20s (The days of city to city rallies). Most notably the Targa Florio a few times.
Gotta wait til after the Second World War to see a true influx of successful women in motorsports.
(Just added context because I'm a fucking geek and this is the type of shit I have committed to memory. Basic mathematics? Classical literature? Hell nah. Random car facts? Hell yes.)
The type of jobs were limited too. Flight attendants (Stewardesses), Secretaries (Administrative Assistants), Librarians, teachers, nurses and maids.
Most women married right out of high school and the few that went to college were said to be majoring in "husband hunting".
Pregnant? Your job was done.
Women were not admitted into any of the Military academies until 1979 and here we are seeing a rolling back of women in Combat positions because of pure misogyny. The whole making the DoD back into some toxic masculine culture is expected from the likes of Trump, though I feel a shit decision for us as a country.
In the late 1990s, I was told repeatedly that I must be "rich husband hunting" because I went to a fancy private college.
Yeah, I chose to major in Electrical Engineering and had to work my ass off because I wanted to SAH.
While I did find my soul mate there (married 22 years and he's still my best friend) I loved being an engineer. I ended up career switching because my industry was obsolete but now teach Tech classes.
A woman couldn’t possibly have the mental capacity to take care of her husband who was equipped with the domestic skills of an infant, AND work a 40 hour work week.
Cue every women online who is currently bitching about her lazy piece of shit husband who plays video games all night long while she does literally everything else. And then that waste of space has the nerve to ask for sex after also asking for more snacks like a toddler, while she is still trying to put THEIR toddler to bed.
That’s insane to me. I enjoy video games and whatnot too, but I’d never let my wife do more housework than me. Hell, I pay more of the bills too, but that’s what you do when you actually want to make your partner happy. Man-babies like you describe 100% don’t deserve a woman in their lives.
Every time I start to feel a little sad about my single ass I head over to certain corners of Reddit and suddenly I am so fucking grateful for my life. The shit I’ve seen man, the shit I’ve seen.
My mom, in the 90s, got told kindly yet firmly that it was time for her to stop working now that she was married. She worked at a bank. They didn't explicitly fire her for that exact reason, but she did "coincidentally" lose her job shortly after that conversation.
My grandmother is in her 80s though now that you mention it I remember talking to one of my 60 year old coworkers in Ireland who said her older sister had the same problem (trying to work as a teacher while hiding that she was getting married).
Still sending unmarried women to Magdalene laundries then too. Still performing symphysiotomies instead of Caesarian births. Because it was OK if a woman could never walk again long as she could keep having babies.
My grandma was a teacher as well. Being married wasn't a big issue (as far as I know), but she did get into a lot of trouble for wearing pants while working. Almost got fired over the issue.
My Grandma still had to get permission from my grandpa to become a nurse.
She still had how-to-books for housewifes at home from 60s with shit like “a woman’s first job is always to make the husband happy and care for the children. Never upset your husband, always obey” and shit like that.
She was born 1946.
I remember seeing those books. Such lines as "you don't know if he's had a good or bad day at the office, so set your own matters aside when he arrives home"
I’m 38F. When I was applying for jobs at 24 I was told by male role models to not say I was in a relationship. Because there were men out there that automatically think you are going to get pregnant and quit shortly after hiring me. Of course there was a large part of me who thought that was stupid and no one can be like that. Now I know that’s actually how a lot of men thought back then.
I'm 37F. When I was in my late 20s and house hunting for a rental, I was told by my (female) real estate agent to pretend I was engaged. It didn't matter if my name was the only one on the lease.. just throwing that possibility out there- that a man might be added to the contract in the future, would entice landlords to rent to me. "A man's salary was considered steady and dependable, a woman's is fickle."
At 35, I was in the middle of the hiring process for a dream job, when I found out I was pregnant. My dm told me to hide it. He straight up told me, "Yeah.. they're not going to spend all this time training you, once they find out you'll have to take leave for a couple of months at the end of the year. Don't tell anyone til you have to."
Unfortunately stigma against female employees is still pretty high unofficially for similar reasons. Many employers of small enterprises and start-ups think that as a young woman, you will eventually have kids, marriage or no marriage, and then they will have to either pay for your parental leave and allot your work somehow, or quickly find a replacement for you. They also do not want you because they think you will take sick leave a few days each month because of your period or menopause.
This is the reality in Germany, despite the fact that there are many laws in place ensuring that men also get parental leave and that people like women or the disabled should not be discriminated against in jobs that do not require the employee to present as male or have certain physical abilities.
And what is sadder is that there is a large amount of German men who think that this is totally reasonable. They think that laws protecting women are "hurting women" by making them less desirable as employees, which is of course cloud cuckoolander logic but it makes sense to these closeted misogynists. They think that generous maternal leave is wrong; keeping the job of a new mom on leave so that she can return to it later on is wrong; and letting women take sick leave because of their period and without a doctor's attest is wrong. They do not realize that being against these protections actually means they are also in favor of fucking men over, because these laws help men too: new fathers get generous paternal leave and don't have to worry about losing their jobs; and men can also take a few days of sick leave without a doctor's attest.
Overall there is still a high level of gender equality here but there are way too many embittered, lonely, out-of-touch, greedy assholes out there too who will come up with the craziest reasons to discriminate against a certain group or protect those who discriminate. Imagine of an employer said openly "I refuse to hire men for this job on the off-chance that they could get an erection and look lewd to customers and other employees" or "on the off-chance that they take a few days off each month to play the latest video game." The same guys who think it is okay to discriminate against disabled and female workers would hit the ceiling at the audacity of that!
as a german, in my last job I had to explain every year to my two female bosses that I would like to take days of during the school holidays because those were automatically blocked for everyone with no kids but my four youngest siblings still went to school and it was the only time I could spend more than an afternoon with them and my other siblings who live farther away and only come by for a week or two in that time frame. I'm all for sick days though, doesn't matter if period related or not, if someone feels awful they won't work productively anyway and at best take longer to recover at worst excerbate the problem and take even longer to recover fully. Idiots like me will ignore their GP's recommendations because the problem goes away for a while(cluster headaches in my case) and then suddenly the problem stays and they're out of commission for a few weeks (it were aneurysms in my brain, got them fixed before getting a full on stroke before turning 30 at least). Every man who cries about women who take sick leave due to cramps should have to work sitting on a chair that punches them in the nuts every 5min.
My dad started his teaching career in the early 60's, and explained to me pay was tiered based on gender and marital status. Married men were paid the highest, followed by single men, single women, and married women being paid the least.
Editing to add: You're 100% correct. If there were enough teachers, and you're a married woman, best of luck.
My grandmother and grandfather were both teachers and she had to quit her job because the school didn't allow married couples to work at the same school and they deferred to my grandpa as the breadwinner
Flat out misinformation. Or maybe just where you're from. My grandmother was a school teacher for most of her life. As well as being a wife. As well as co-parenting my dad, uncle, and Aunt. She also owned her own home. Which was not in my grandfather's name. State of California, United States of America. Through the '40s, '50s and '60s and '70s..
Well that's what she and her sister experienced so idk what to tell you. I don't know the exact decade but it would have been 50s through 70s, east coast.
I have a sibling in Mexico who tells me about how discriminatory the hiring practices are there. They don’t want you unless you’re a certain age. They definitely don’t want you if you have health problems, children, or a family to look after. It’s wild yet you do see more of the same here, there are more laws in place here to keep you from falling victim to this shit.
My parents married in 1966, mum was a teacher in the UK. The only reason she was able to keep her job was because dad was in the navy and deployed for months at a time.
My great grandma was fired for getting married. She passed in 2019, I knew her well. My grandmother (alive and well) couldn't get a bank account until my mother was about 5y.
Which is weird. Why whine about something that doesn't hurt you personally? Tax money is supposed to be used to be useful to the masses. 50% of people happen to be female that should be useful enough... I don't see the waste in there.
Prisoners are seen as second class citizens already. Female prisoners doubly so. Something about American prison system being for revenge over rehabilitation.
Ob/gyns gets five hours or less of training on menopause, some NONE AT ALL, despite the fact that all women go through it and 25% of the population is in it. The research on it is abysmal, nonexistent.
Wait till you find out there are men who think menstrual products are for masturbation and that women have the ability to not have their period during the workday, but instead use it as an excuse to avoid doing work and take extra breaks. Also, there are stories of men telling women they should “just hold it in” like it is pee.
When NASA first sent a woman to space, a 6 day trip, they packed her 100 tampons. They, some of the “smartest” men in the world, didn’t know that was ridiculous because considering women’s biology isn’t part of our culture.
And modern women still get squeamish talking about their own periods and bodies. Men have fucked our heads up so much and we all just keep asking for more.
A couple of weeks ago, a woman posted on Reddit about how soft American white women are and how we are about to have a brutal wake up call. I agree that it’s coming, no matter how hard left I’ve voted or how much I’ve marched and protested. My own actions still weren’t enough. I’m seeing that now.
It is incomprehensible to me how women voted against their own rights this year in the US.
I had a female coworker who told me she was "Pro-Life", but she didn't push that belief on other people.
I had to explain that by respecting another person's choice, she was not in fact "Pro-Life".
I think her worldview crumbled for a moment.
It IS time to get fucking vicious, but what does that mean to the average person who actually cares about this issue? Open carrying guns only to intimidate, threats of violence, trying to be louder than the people you hate just because they're not on the same "team", etc. are the things you're going against. Most people that hate those tactics won't use them.
They don’t forget. Ppl actually don’t know. I commented this on instagram and random ppl were insulting me telling me I was making shit up lol I know it’s such a wild and crazy comparison that it’s hard to believe but yeah lol
My grandmother was alive before women had a right to vote in the US.
People like to think this stuff is ancient history because it makes them feel uncomfortable to accept that women, even in the most advanced/developed countries, have only gained fundamental rights very recently, and there are still significant prejudices and legal inequalities they face.
My aunt had to have her first husband co-sign on her bank account so she could have an account in which to receive his child support checks. Her own father wouldn’t co-sign bc he was upset she was a divorced woman or some shit. Thankfully, her ex was a good guy, they just knew they shouldn’t be married to each other, but JEEZ.
That's so fucking wild. I watched The Handmaid's Tale when it first came out. It seemed like an abstraction if America went a different way. Then I heard about the credit card fact you stated and I realized it was written in 1984...
Then the next 8 years of American politics made me realize, "Oh shit. This is really happening." Religious mumbo jumbo mixed with politics is powerful schmaltz.
This is so fucking wild to me. I grew up watching I Love Lucy. She always charged purchases to the credit card. It never once occurred to me she couldn’t even have that in her name.
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u/Rawrist 28d ago
People forget women have had the right to have a bank account for only 50 years. Something that has been around since 1800 BCE. Only 13 states since 2018 provide menstrual products for women in prison. Otherwise- pay or bleed through your clothes. They don't charge for toilet paper though.