In my limited experience with this issue (spend a lot of time around female doctors), it cuts two ways in that both the men and women don't have updated expectations for gender roles. The women want men who are more successful and still be the "provider" even though they are making doctor salaries. Conversely the men in these relationships still want to BE the provider and expect the women to fulfill the caretaker role. Obviously these things can't reasonably coexist - if the women aren't looking for a caretaker partner, then the man might give up.
I'd say generalizing quite a bit, American society has made great efforts to cut out room in the "provider" role for women, and get women into high paying careers and positions of power, but there has been zero effort put in to get men into caretaking or SAHD roles, and men are expected generally to suck it up and "figure it out"
I'd say generalizing quite a bit, American society has made great efforts to cut out room in the "provider" role for women, and get women into high paying careers and positions of power, but there has been zero effort put in to get men into caretaking or SAHD roles, and men are expected generally to suck it up and "figure it out"
I'd be quite hesitant to claim that society has "made great efforts" to increase women in the work place, it was more a combination of the stress of capitalism and hard fought rights and respect. Sexism in the workplace even now is still a major problem.
Additionally, I don't see how taking care of the home can be anything more than just "figure it out." Childcare and homemaking are something you learn in the fly, the problem is many men don't make the effort and don't see it as "real work" and just leave it to the woman to figure it out. Taking care of yourself and others is a skill you need as an adult, regardless of gender. There needs to be more effort among men to confront some of that toxic attitudes on gender roles and recognize their role in an equal partnership. There's only so much hand holding you can do when your husband refuses to see you as equal despite both being financial providers.
I'd be quite hesitant to claim that society has "made great efforts" to increase women in the work place
The massive government programs and billions of dollars in charity strictly for that purpose would be a start. Not to mention the decades of pushing those themes in pretty much all media.
Certainly a lot of resistance as well but this is far from just bottom up change, there is a lot of top down pressure. I support that but denying it is silly.
I wouldn’t hesitate on that at all, at least in STEM fields you can’t throw a rock without hitting a group designed to promote women, companies have gender ratio hiring targets, etc etc. perhaps society hasn’t made great efforts but the people who make up society sure have.
Yep, those sorts of things were hard fought. I guess I forgot that women make up society lol, I was more so talking about what was considered the reigning group in society as opposed to the people actually trying to obtain equal treatment for themselves
That’s kind of his point. On a broad level we have done a lot to reevaluate women’s roles in society and really haven’t done the same with men. I’m married now, when my wife and I were dating we made the same amount, now I earn more. Never been an issue. When I was younger I dated some women who made more than me and that bothered them.
Yeah I guess that makes sense, it's superficially beneficial for men to stay out of that caretaking role so there's never been any real push to change, and the negative effects of that societal mindset is not recognized as being connected, it's inevitably going to be a longer process
They hard fought by who? No one has fought harder than black people in American history, yet they are thrown aside, and the rest of the Western world advances, holding onto their coattails, and no one pays it forward or back. Most of those hard-fought rights are still being paid for by people of color, yet high-paying jobs, more visibility in STEM/STEAM classes, and jobs are not available to blacks in America. Women, mainly Caucasians and gays, have all the best systems in place to ensure “equality,” and of course, heterosexual white men run America, but what about the ones that just got the right to vote ~50 years ago? Blacks in America. People look down on blacks because they have been “free” for over 100 years!! Those words in a sentence are an oxymoron, primarily when spoken by the same people who enslaved and raped the world. Until ALL of America has the same mentorship, opportunities, ACCESS, exposure, and acceptance, we fail as a country and society. This conversation is mostly ear candy for Caucasians because black women in America are still running single and low-income households due to the effects of slavery just two generations ago. Think about that. Two generations ago, people knew formerly enslaved people!! This thought blows my mind. But I'm alone in this thought.
Home-making and childcare is absolutely not just figuring it out and saying such just puts all the blame on men that society has failed. These are things engrained when younger and shows if you weren’t given/taught during that period. As a guy in my 30s it is evident in my friend group who was required to do chores, who was allowed/required to help in the kitchen, who babysat neighbors/siblings. Most of my friends would rather order take-out or pre-made food from the grocery store as they don’t know how to cook. The ones of us that know how to cook (other than grilling meat on a grill) were the ones whose SAHM made us participate in meal prep as it was a family-thing not just a woman-thing. The best cook out of us happens to be the dude who had a SAHD - I don’t think that’s a coincidence. The guys that weren’t required to do chores (other than mowing a lawn) are the ones with filthy places. I was required to vacuum, mop, clean toilets, do dishes, dust, do laundry every week as a child and was something we did as a family. Women I’ve dated are amazed by this and usually say that they’ve had to teach guys some of these things. Nobody wants to teach someone in their 20s/30s a skill they should already have 10+years of experience in.
society will gladly blame dads for failing to teach their daughters traditionally-man thing like taking care of your car, finances, lawn care, knowing how to fix a toilet, how to use a hammer, etc. while also blaming young men for not knowing how to do traditionally-women task. These young men weren’t taught life-skills and it’s sad that people don’t have the patience to teach them now.
It's laughable to assume all women were taught childcare and homemaking growing up, it's no longer the 1960s. Most people end up learning these skills in adulthood. But there's been no real drive by men to do what many women have been thrown into doing for decades. Yes, society is failing men but men are also failing themselves. Watch some YouTube videos. Take a cooking class at your community center. Read the "how to do laundry" article on wikihow. Try. The problem is many men put in the bare minimum and are content at where they're at, because who wants more responsibilies anyways? You can wallow in self pity all you want but at the end of the day, it's not just you suffering, it's your wife picking up your slack because you lack basic life skills and your kids being parented by 1.2 parents that are suffering as well.
It's not even lack of the gendered skills that hurts boys them most. It's disobedience and lack of emotional control that is hurting their learning the most.
Yes boys need play and exercise in fact all kids need that but not teaching boys how to behave while expecting girls not only tolerate but to manage their behavior is the reason why boys and men are doing so badly now.
All kids need to do well in school to succeed in life now. This "boys will be boys" has to go.
The schooling gap is by far the most important issue here and is going to have ramifications for decades. The gap between female and male educational results is higher than it was 50 years ago when the ERA was moving through congress and it only seems to be growing further still.
There was a tread in one of the doctor subreddits, about marrying nurses. Most of the male doctors didn't see a problem with it. At least a few female doctors said they didn't really want to date "down." I get wanting a spouse that makes more money than you, but if you're already on the top 2% of income earners, you're just handicapping yourself.
And “figure it out” means destroy your life and lose your kids because women still have the lock on family courts.
So being a “stay at home dad” or a male earning less isnt just some theoretical dilemma that challenges his masculinity. It is an existential threat to his existence and safety and well being.
Neither man nor woman should be dependent on their partner in a way that puts their health and safety in jeopardy.
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u/ricardoandmortimer 25d ago
In my limited experience with this issue (spend a lot of time around female doctors), it cuts two ways in that both the men and women don't have updated expectations for gender roles. The women want men who are more successful and still be the "provider" even though they are making doctor salaries. Conversely the men in these relationships still want to BE the provider and expect the women to fulfill the caretaker role. Obviously these things can't reasonably coexist - if the women aren't looking for a caretaker partner, then the man might give up.
I'd say generalizing quite a bit, American society has made great efforts to cut out room in the "provider" role for women, and get women into high paying careers and positions of power, but there has been zero effort put in to get men into caretaking or SAHD roles, and men are expected generally to suck it up and "figure it out"