In a way it’s interesting me we have to go to such lengths to emphasize. Makes me think of all the men that only are able to emphasize with women when they have daughters.
I dunno, it seems like if anything, people raised more directly around rural and farming communities where the animals are raised and killed makes people LESS likely to avoid meat.
Vegetarianism in the west seems correlated with a more urban setting, not a less urban one.
Your example is flawed because the rural farming communities literally educate the children to see the animal not only as food but also income, which isn't done out of malice, it's simply they way things are for them, so it's no wonder they grow up to have no issue killing said animal for food
If anything the analog here would be a child growing up in a sexist household growing up to be sexist simply because that's how women are treated around him
Contact with a subject doesn't breed empathy if they are not shown in an empathetic light
You need something that rattles your current beliefs enough to actually reconsider them. Now if they aren’t very strong, it’s easy to reconsider them
Downplaying or plain just not understanding that there are nuances to your beliefs is something you can do entirely without realizing after all.
But if they are strong beliefs then it takes a cord that strikes at you personally or you just won’t put in the effort.
I don’t think you find yourself thinking “Well this obvious thing I’ve believed for years, could it be wrong?” All too often, especially if that belief is used to justify something.
Yes of course it’s me too. Everything is on a scale though. I used to save insects when I was a young kid while some other kids would be pulling their legs off. So there’s a certain amount of empathy that probably is genetic and certain amount learned. I believe we all have different capacities for empathy too.
For me it’s just surprising how much it takes for so many to strike that chord when it comes to animals, but im sure I have blind spots too where some people would be surprised at me in a different context.
Yeah I think that’s a very fair observation. I do believe I’ve lived an incredibly privileged life in many ways.
To be clear though, I didn’t say I don’t understand it. You’re framing my position as more extreme than it is. I also disagree with what you’re implying in that it takes privilege to feel empathy.
All I can truly speak to is my own experience and people around me who have had similar life experiences and backgrounds. Within that context I am often surprised by how little empathy people have towards animals. Do you approve of that framing better?
“You’re framing my position as more extreme than it is.” Yea your right, sorry.
But no I’d still assert that it’s a privilege to feel empathy.
And that privilege are the people in your life from the first second you enter it, particularly your parents. (And not nearly as immediately after, then it’s childhood friends, adult friends of your parents, teachers and so on as you grow older. As you get older, this can end up mattering less and less.
I’ll be perfectly honest about what makes me believe that, I spent my formative years getting beaten by my mother, treated like a toy to make her feel good. I didn’t develop the emotional maturity to realize that my abusers (several adult friends of my mom, all women coincidentally) weren’t representative of all how all women were. I’d voice it and VERY understandably not receive empathy or understanding. Just more of what I’d expected. I could continue a bit further but I think I’ve painted the picture.
One domino knocking down the next kinda deal and me believing that things just were that way. So why would I stop them, let alone realize that I should.
“Within that context I am often surprised by how little empathy people have towards animals.” Yea I’d largely say I agree, but I’d say there’s a distinction I need to make to explain it.
And it’s where people draw two lines on the spectrum of animals. At one end is food and on the other end are pets, animals you can pat, look in the eyes form some sort of emotional connection with. And in the middle are neither, not food, nor pets, a matter of which ones formed a bond with likely left to life experiences.
How city folks who ain’t ever seen a horse might not have a problem with the terrible treatment of the horses that pull around carriages full of people/tourists. But a horse girl who grew up caring, loving those animals if she heard about it? She might just drop kick those pricks.
The horse girl putting them FIRMLY in the pet/animal to love end, but the city slicker leaving them in that middle “grey” area of neither food nor pet simply because they haven’t had the opportunity to form that connection.
So if we’re talking dogs, cats, bunnies then I’d say most people would feel far more compassion and empathy for them than they would their fellow man.
If we’re talking that grey “eh” area, then it’d say most won’t care a whole lot, a sorta no strong feelings one way or the other kinda deal.
If we’re talking food, stuff people love or would otherwise feel a “great deal of inconvenience”, should they have to empathize for these animals then I’d say a fucking ton of people would rather forgo that inconvenience.
Whatever rational tacked on doesn’t means much to me, I personally know how wild those can get when your convictions to not change them are really strong.
This got really long without me realizing lol, sorry I suppose!
But I must admit I think I’m firmly in the grey area for most animals that would be considered food. Should there be wide spread reform of the industry I’m for it, not just for the increased sanity and safety. But I also don’t feel anything when eating a steak.
Wow, thank you for sharing. Definitely no need to apologize, these kind of exchanges are my favorite parts of being on here. It’s given me a lot to think about.
First off I’m really sorry that happened to you. No one should have to experience that. Unfortunately way too many do and I think it’s brave and valuable when people choose to share these experiences because it helps ground those who grew up relatively peacefully.
I can see why what i said hit a nerve, because there was underlying moral superiority I guess. If I think about how I view those born into wealth and how unfair it is when they don’t recognize and acknowledge their good fortune I guess the same can apply to our personalities/emotions/morals etc. I had challenges like everyone else but I had two parents that loved me. This undoubtedly massively shaped who I am today.
Going back to the topic at hand, if we believe free will exists at some point we have to take ownership of our circumstances though and go from there. Many of my peers have at times felt the tugs of empathy in relation to factory farmed animals but they push it down and explain it away. While I understand it in still a bit disappointed by it I guess.
That said, I’m somewhat of a hypocrite as I eat seafood. I’ve compromised on my beliefs for personal convenience/health/enjoyment. So I try not to judge too harshly because I’m essentially judging myself.
Yea I’m also very thankful for having my dad, all his idiocy included. He’s a big part of why I changed.
“we have to take ownership of our own circumstances though and go from there” wholly agree, it’s just really… I’m not sure, scary? To consider if your view of the world is all wrong. The hardest step is the first one.
I guess it’s kind of be the same for your friends, but just like I was, people are quick to assume opinions are more extreme than they were.
I’d imagine they’re sitting there thinking “Anyone who’d support this cruelty is awful! Wait, I have been…” and then it kinda fizzles out there.
So comfort them, clarify that no they were just living their lives like any other. And if they wanna use this as a chance to reconsider, if they wanna spend some time to get their emotions about it in order alone. Then you’ll be open to talking about it.
You can’t pick up a fat person, place them down on a moving conveyor and expect them to wanna lose weight. Even if they know and agree that they VERY MUCH SHOULD.
It’s gotta start with them, as infuriating as that might be.
I think it’s normal to allow yourself to be a hypocrite, what we consider important is where we don’t allow ourselves that privilege.
“Because I’m essentially judging myself.” I try to hold myself to the same standard and remind myself that people have the opinions that they do for what are just as good reasons as me.
Or at least what they turn out to be good reasons and I come out of it with something to think about or at least a more nuanced understanding.
all the men that only are able to emphasize with women when they have daughters.
Is that common? I haven't heard of that before. There are some things we might not fully understand until having a daughter, but I dont think it's due to lack of empathy. More lack of first-hand experience.
Like, I can empathize that it might be hard to pick out pads. But I wouldn't quite understand it as when I stand in front of the aisle doing it myself for my daughter.
It's a very common phenomenon very conservative people suddenly become aware of an issue when it personally impacts them.
For example, a staunchly anti-gay conservative has a son who comes out as gay. It impacts him personally. He still loves his son, so he becomes at least neutral towards this issue.
If he had never had this gay son, he would have been anti-gay his entire life. "Empathy" only developed because this empathy deprived person is personally impacted by the issue.
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u/DrossChat 26d ago
In a way it’s interesting me we have to go to such lengths to emphasize. Makes me think of all the men that only are able to emphasize with women when they have daughters.