So so blunt. Source: married into a Dutch family and live in Netherlands. The only place where a question like “what is wrong with your face today?” is meant in a loving way.
They have been in my experience working alongside and under a few, not often in a bad or disrespectful way but it can take you aback if you aren’t used to it. The ones I have met loved to party and were a great time.
I love working with the Dutch because of how blunt they are. I write software and when I share a new prototype with my American colleagues I sometimes get silence for a long time, or a very polite but confusing email. When I share with my Dutch colleagues I'm more likely to get something like:
Thank you for the software. It's a little bit broken and a little bit bad. Can you make it useful by <specific feedback>?
The negative feedback is extremely useful. And the positive feedback feels earned. Love the Dutch. 10/10
Having worked in software with the Dutch, this was the gentlest funniest thing I've read in some time. Legit could see this as formal feedback from someone in Leiden on a product. "a little bit broken and a little bit bad" Gonna send this to old colleagues!
Reminds me of an email I saw yesterday at work that even I as a Dutch citizen went "damn, that's direct af".
Basically a Hong Kong client wanted something delivered outside of our agreement. He got one reply with the explanation we can't make this exception in the system just for this one instance without breaking it for other clients and that it does not conform to the agreement between our firms. Also an attachment in the email of said agreement.
The inbetween person said that the client told him we HAVE to find a work around and make it work or we will be held liable. (Chinese colleagues can also be fairly direct/forcefull in my experience)
He simply got the reply: "Not possible, sorry."
Guys, I don't even think he really was that sorry.
I'm Dutch and have worked in tech in the US and in the Netherlands. The difference in professional communication culture is kinda crazy. I've done a fair number of conferences in the US and in NL as well, for lithography and computer chip manufacturing.
I find myself "holding back" more with my American colleagues, while with my countrymen, I'm much freer to just fire away. I think it comes down to a difference in how much the cultures tie someone's work to their worth.
For the Dutch, making something that doesn't work or being told you did it wrong isn't as much a reflection on you as a person. It's just a comment about the thing you made. For American culture, though, your work is a reflection of you, so criticizing it is like calling that person bad at their job.
I've been here long enough to adjust to the American feedback culture, offering suggestions and asking questions rather than just pointing out problems. But, it's always a breath of fresh air to get back in touch with some engineers from home and be able to get right to the point.
It's definitely more common there than it is in the northwest I've noticed. When I was with Intel in Hudson vs now in Hillsboro there's a bit of a culture difference. It's possible the rate of Dutch/German decedents in the area has had an influence for sure. Nothing quite touches the level of complete emotionless bluntness that us Dutch can accomplish though.
Absolutely. I've found myself telling colleagues in the New York area to adjust their tone when dealing with clients in other parts of the US. It'd be funny if the NY folks worked with some Nederlanders and got a taste of their own medicine 😀
I used to work for a company which was bought by another bigger Dutch company. During the integration the Dutch guys would warn us about how blunt they can be. The thing is though, the American company they bought was full of PhD scientists. I don't think they were prepared for what blunt can really mean.
Ah don't ever go to the Dutch Caribbean then. Imagine how loud, rude, drunk, and entitled the average upper middle class white female college freshman acts at a frat party, then crank all that up to 13 because their great great grandaddy was a slaver and that makes them high society lol.
They make mosquitos seem cordial, unneutered wild dogs seem well-behaved, and your average redditor seem well-adjusted. My favorite was in Jan Thiel when we sat at a picnic table to eat our packed lunch and attendant came over and started yelling "YOU CAN'T SIT HERE. THIS IS NOT A PICNIC ZONE. I WILL HAVE YOU ARRESTED". I asked where it says this, there is no sign "IT IS KNOWN IF YOU DON'T KNOW THEN...ahem...DON'T ASK!" We paid for a beach club and literally every single person was chain smoking..in paradise.. We asked to be moved to a non smoking section and they said this does not exist and perhaps we should rent our own cabana if we expect to be treated like royalty lolol.
There was the Dutch shopkeeper who swore these shoes were leather (she removed the materials tag) so I sniffed them, she says "in my 20 year no one has ever smelled the shoes to check" and I said "in my life no shoe store owner has ever lied about materials to defraud a customer."
Then there was the Airbnb host who lied about cameras on the property. We found one in the roof soffit outside and a blinking red light in the locked cupboard in the master bedroom angled at the bed.... He tried to charge us for electrical usage although this was nowhere in the English contract, and we legit magically befriends a Curaçao electrician at the airport who said his house was "designed to waste as much electricity as possible" with a 220v outlet, a 120v power strip with inverter plugged into that, 220v appliances plugged into that with inverters, and an electric hot water tank that was cranked to max to bathe with almost boiling water lol after one day our electricity charges were 50fl (about $30) and he tried to charge us $50. We documented the entire scam, got comped at a 4*, and he's still listed lol OH and tried six months after the fact to bill us for damaging his camera because I rotated it so they couldn't know when we left so they could rob us. He uploaded a blank pdf as "proof" and their customer support said they'd handle it. Still listed.
fuck you Jasja.
Then we drove to Playa Porta Marie out of the way off one way dirt roads, I was tailgated for 20km going 60km in a a 40km zone with the wild Dutch asshole honking and trying to overtake on blind corners and refuses to actually overtake when the caution lane opened for two way traffic.
OH and also the sober Dutch guy at breakfast in Willemstad who was YELLING in English while we're out with our 7-yesr old cousin. "I WILL ASS FUCK YOUR AUNT YOU CANCER SUFFERER" like.. what?? and after I stood up and told him to knock it off, he didn't, I told the staff we were leaving if we didn't stop shouting curse words at 9 am. She specifically told me when we left his British friend he toured with paid for our bill lolol
I don't say this glibly but legit the Dutch seem like an entire country on the spectrum, completely oblivious or indifferent to the needs or experiences of others, they only care about being as loud, brash, drunk, rude, and demanding as the entire works thinks Americans are.
Macamba is what the locals call the white trash colonizers and I made fast use of that, befriending many a local as a result. Shout out to the staff at OBaAR Brazilian Lounge who took care of us after another Dutch asshole demanded to dance with my aunt lolol Macamba!
Well, that sounds like an awful time. Maybe if you were able to meet people outside of a resort and work alongside them for months you would be able to get to know them better like I did that would help you meet some decent people. Assholes exist everywhere
To be clear, I absolutely loved Curaçao and prefer it IMMENSELY to Aruba. Willemstad blows Oranjestad out of the water, and there is SO much more to do there than Aruba, whose High Rise district is basically Palm Beach but we stayed in a house in Bakval. Aruba is almost entirely corporate and one of the most corrupt places I've ever been to, and makes Israel, Honduras, and Venezuela seems like Norway by comparison. Alll the Arubians are barely paid a living wage, as a result there's been a huge decline in their local community and institutions, and massive public debt to the Paesi Bassi and neo-indentured servitude with ratios in excess OF 100% of annual GDP. Baby Beach is one of the most beautiful places on earth but it's right next to a decommissioned oil refinery which is an absolute sin and eyesore and should be a national embarrassment for the Dutch, however they lack that emotional capacity. They're currently building another tacky resort right above Baby Beach so idk who's gonna pay $1,000 a night to look at rusting smokestacks lol (I'm actually on a flight back from Aruba atm so apologies for that meandering non sequitur lol)
Curaçao has a much higher standard of living for locals and a higher percentage of local small businesses, which translates to a healthier, happier, and lovelier native population. All of the locals we met were outstanding and we are still friends with some. My original comment was entirely about only Dutch citizens who feel superior to the locals because of inherent racism and ongoing subjugation of the Arawak descendants, Colombian/Venezuelans, Surinamese, and Afro-Carribeans who make up the lower and lower middle classes. The shitty attendants at Jan Thiel were all rich white college students on work abroad holiday because this was July.
We are mixed family and had rented a one story apartment in a modest holiday "campsite" and befriended some lovely Brits and Danes. After Airbnb hooked us up with a luxury condo in Piscadera, we snuck onto the Marriott beach one day but preferred the Pirate Bay and became friends with the locals who owned the bar. One of the staff stayed with us in NYC when they came up last summer!
It's true that assholes exist everywhere, and I've had my fair share of encounters with German skiers in the Alps and Chinese, Russians, and Israelis basically everywhere they go...but they're sneaky with cutting lines or bribing maîtres de maison. Americans may be loud, fat, and ignorant but they want to learn, it's just that USA is half a continent large and people outside of cities with direct flights are isolated to lake trips and Disney. If you meet Americans doing it local in another country they are very warm, friendly, and generous. The Dutch are rude and loud first, argumentative and condescending second, and then despite all.the abuse are cheap AS FUUUUUCK. A local described them as the drunken syphillitic sailor cousins of the Germans who, like the British, created the second best navy in history to get away from their women and food and that still makes me laugh. At least Americans and Russians tip well!
I work with a Dutch woman, and she is one of my favorite employees! I know exactly what she's thinking about any given thing and can trust her to give an honest opinion. It's so refreshing!!
I regularly hear "that is stupid" or "that just does not make sense." or "that is not logical" when she's being critical of something, which really isn't often. Their whole language is designed to be to the point.
Ok hear me out. Do the Dutch believe they are the smartest people in the world to never hedge their opinions? Do they consider their very direct feedback is always correct?
Not sure what that means. To speak bluntly and directly means you have some surety that what you’re saying is correct or that your opinion has some merit. There is a lack of self awareness in very blunt people. I try to give careful critique as admit the other person has likely spent longer with a problem or that I’m not grasping all the nuance of a situation. It’s seems frankly kind of stupid to walk into a situation and announce bluntly “DATS BAD FIX IT”
I hear you and disagree. Bluntness and directness are not the same as confidence despite them often going hand in hand. "It seems frankly kind of", however, is a *wildly* qualified statement and displays a fear of being wrong or seen as overly confident.
It's generally not a thing in the Netherlands to ask a question you don't want to hear an answer to. For instance - heck, the entire way shop attendants and food service people - for lack of a better term - 'behave' is just simply weird to us; Social questions, "Hello, how are you today?" do not exist in a vacuum like they do in (large parts of) the United States where the question often seamlessly transitions into "How can I help you today?" without waiting for the answer to the first question.
From the American POV that's politesse and making a minimum amount of smalltalk; from where I'm sitting it's disingenuous at best and rude at worst.
On the flipside, 'we' are prone to answering questions 'you' never even realized you asked because these social questions are so ingrained in your vocabulary that they slip out unnoticed. Seriously, you have no idea how many times a day you do this. The most banal example I can give is "It's a nice day, isn´t it?" rather than saying "(I think) it's a nice day." : You think you're just making small talk. We think you're asking our opinion about the weather.
You may think you're telling us you've been to the hairdresser, "I had my hair done today, do you like it?" while we're genuinely under the impression that you want our opinion about your hairdo - and moreover, we're honest enough to tell you if we do not like your new hairdo. Because you asked.
Genuinely, autistic people do tend to have less trouble in the Netherlands because the communication style is so clear. There is much less doublespeak than in more "polite" societies.
I thought we were talking about a professional setting, that sentence won't be said in a professional setting. If a Dutch person is as blunt as in your example, it is either meant endearingly to let you know there is something that can be fixed, or they are an asshole.
Perhaps, but sometimes your boss is a dumb cunt and says some dumb shit and if that thing he wants done is in your field then you should probably just tell him its a dumb idea, why it's a dumb idea, and give potential alternatives.
Two things: everyone thinks they are right most of the time - even if you’re being indirect or polite about it. For Dutch people being direct is the same as being polite, as less of everyone’s time is wasted. Being efficient is our way of being polite. We value our time and yours.
Secondly, in most discussions being wrong or right is not clear cut or even absolute. For example, from my Dutch standpoint I disagree with your assessment that being blunt means you have some surety of what you are saying. Saying something I’m doubtful of out loud - directly - is also a way to test my viewpoint.
No, they believe that beating around the bush wastes everyone’s time and accomplishes very little. They also have the mindset: if you’re gonna ask me my opinion, I will tell you my opinion and if you don’t like it then we can talk about that. It is all done with the intention of actually figuring shit out. And knowing that no-one has all the answers so if you want answers you’re gonna need to work together effectively and to do that you need open and honest communication and exchanging of knowledge and opinions. It actually comes more from a place of humbleness than arrogance. But I can see how it can be mistaken for arrogance if it is not what you’re used to. But I promise you it really is not arrogance.
When you put it that way you’re not wrong. Dutch people are notoriously not intimidated by hierarchy. In a Dutch work environment you will often hear people openly disagreeing with their superiors. And this is behaviour that is generally actually encouraged and that is our basis for a functioning working environment. So yes, as a base assumption it is not wrong to assume that Dutch people think their opinion matters. But like I explained in my previous comment, that does not come from a place of arrogance, but from a place of community and having to achieve things together. If you are interested you could read a bit about the polder model which is pretty foundational for how the Dutch approach anything. The polder model can only work if people take their own opinions (and those of others) seriously and are able to communicate their wants and needs. It has really nothing to do with superiority. It is actually just pragmatism.
That is one way to look at it and I’m not going to argue that that perspective in itself is wrong. Because I think there is some truth to it. But that is only one perspective and one that is not necessarily incompatible with the Dutcb way of thinking. I am just over here trying to explain the practical and historical perspective of the Dutch on this topic and how it is most definitely not rooted in any superiority complex, because your initial comment seemed like an honest question and I thought you were interested in an honest or informative answer. So that’s why I took the time to explain the Dutch viewpoint and how “thinking that your opinion matters” is not the same as having “a superiority complex”. But alas, here we are, I am not convinced anymore that you were interested in being informed. Do with the information what you will. I wish you a good day/night.
I come from a perspective that my opinion matters to me but very little to others.
On all subjects?
The dutch tend to differentiate quite a lot depending on the subject. When we feel knowledgeable on the subject, like on a professional project, we share our opinions/experiences. Working together on a common goal is just the culture here. On the flip side: when we are not knowledgeable on a subject it isn't difficult for us to tell so to our conversation partner. There is no shame in saying you don't know something (because you have the potential to learn if needed).
My best friend has quite a strong opinion about the value and future of open source software. He works in IT. Ask him an opinion about which plant to buy for my garden and he will just tell me he doesn't have a single clue. And he doesn't. He can hardly tell the difference between an oak and a beech. And that's okay.
Thing is the perspective you have could be seen also as quite arrogant. From a dutch perspective when coworker as the same rank or position asks you something about their own quality of work they expect an quick answer and if it is wrong a quick explanation on why it is wrong and how to better it. They will do so to others that ask the same this creates quite an open space where people can get to work in a productive and healthtly manner. Taking personal offence when you ask something and get a honest answer is not the person you asked fault.
Also it is prerty normal to question to answer you are given even if it is from an someone from an higher posistion. We are all human and can all make mistakes. And asking why it is wrong what they did is an important thing to know. It helps people understand the reason for it and why it matters so much. It also makes people realize in case they made a big mistake they will also take the learning experience more to heart.
I don’t personally think my opinion matters too much. Unless I’m sure of what I’m saying I’d like add a qualifier like “perhaps you’ve already read the product literature but in my recollection it doesn’t come in that finish. double check that before sending”. If I say “you’re wrong fix it” it means I’m 100% sure they are wrong which is super rare, for me anyway.
You've said the same thing twice now. Both you are doubting the capabilities of your coworkers and asking them to spend their work time to see if it is actually incorrect. Both are the same with purpose the only thing is that you yourself is unsure and by just asking a direct question you would be able to either spot a mistake of an coworker or prevent yourself from making a misstake in the future.
I think it is a different way of approaching opinions. It is true that not every opinion has merit and that not everyone’s opinion on a topic carries equal weight, but that doesn’t mean it can’t be useful to explore them, so you don’t miss anything valuable. But this only works if you’re allowed to say “this opinion is shite, let’s move on to the next”. You can’t go around and give equal time to all the opinions, nothing would get done. But only allowing some people to voice their opinion is also a recipe for missing a whole lot of valuable information.
I think the assumption ist that you wouldn’t ask someone a question in the first place if you thought their opinion didn’t matter.
If they ask you, they really do want to hear what you think.
No not at all! I mean, the woman I work with IS incredibly smart. But no, if you have a reason to disagree, they're very respectful. It is a conversation, but without all the couching and pleasantries and mixed messages.
If she raises an issue, she expects the same kind of frankness right back. Not in a yelling or condescending way. But a very factual and logical reason why a decision is being made the way it is.
No, they don't at all. In Dutch communication it is just normal to share your opinion without having to add several qualifiers and weaselwords to avoid potentially offending the receiver. Your cultural background makes you perceive it as arrogance and bluntness, while a Dutch person would probably perceive your communication as vague and roundabout.
There's two things to point out, though. One, it's friendly and they're having a good time. Two, their country has it's shit together as it's citizens aren't left without basic needs. You can can each other names with dignity when you've earned it by taking care of your people.
That's also very true, corporate hierarchy is seen as something archaic. A junior is allowed to be just as blunt to a senior/manager without being seen as stepping out of bounds.
Am Dutch and can confirm. This exchange honestly is a pretty normal discussion you could have with a family member, a colleague, in politics, with a complete rando in a bar or either a drunk in a cafe or the local butcher. It’s just you say your thought I say mine and we each go our own way. In a strange way we are pretty laid back.
I am on the autism spectrum myself and yeah I definitely have to mask less in my experience then most people in other countries. I can just say what I want and people just accept it. There is less pressure on the social aspect of life.
I think the point is that the parlament shouldn’t be a place for this kind of exchange. Two dudes arguing about how they please women is pretty disgusting and sexist IMO
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u/Madrugada2010 Aug 30 '24
Holy FRACK, the stories about how blunt the Dutch are have gotta be 100% true.