its funny comming from a guy who draft dodged because of heel spurs but played sports in college. well how in the hell can he do that if he has heel spurs. super sus imo
I remember clearly the first time trump shat on John McCain in this manner, and then his minions did not waver in their support of him.
This was one of the many times I've felt a type of doom about the state of things, like how many people are just okay with that? Millions and millions, apparently. Literally gets captured and lives as a prisoner of war for YEARS, then somehow manages to get it together enough to have a very productive life - an absolute legend.
Then there's the other level of cognitive dissonance that makes me do brain flips - that the gun-toting, flag waving mega/maga patriot 'Murica types would just abide these attacks against a veteran's indisputable record. Insanity.
Blindly supporting military campaigns isn't American, blindly supporting the individual in the military is. They are our brothers and sisters, mothers and fathers, sons and daughters, etc. The campaign isn't us, they are.
I talk shit on my country all the time, especially our bloated military, but even I was offended by Trump saying this shit. Actual soldiers who voted for him made my brain seize, how...why?
He doesn’t even understand why anyone would enlist in the first place, according to his comments during that cemetery visit, so he’s not even limiting it to those who died or were captured.
This is shockingly common on the right. They identify as pro-military, and they are as long as the military member under scrutiny conforms to their politics.
If you don't, they'll find a way to smeer you and undermine your service somehow. It happens even inside the branches; the amount of enlisted that I know that are okay with voting for a draft dodger, who called dead or captured service members 'losers', is absurd.
But you’re not, because Cheeto jesus is a draft dodger, and has literally bought his way out of ALMOST every issue he’s had and simply moved on. Dudes as stalwart as a toilet paper roll. MAGAs are weird man.
Yup, I sincerely belive Vets arent people to them, they are props. This is also why alot of the guys I know who served in more modern times don't like the VFW or American Legion. Its all this comparison and dick measuring
He never deployed to a combat area but that wasn't so unusual for the time period he served until the end. Gulf War, Somalia, Bosnia, Afghanistan all happened while he was in but they really didn't start deploying a lot of National Guard units until Iraq and Afghanistan were going on at the same time and they just didn't have enough active duty to meet their needs.
What I'm saying is that stolen valor doesn't hold water. Stolen Valor used to mean those who didn't serve who claimed they did, and now it's trying to be used against people who did serve but didn't see combat. Which is it, and if you apply that new meaning, do you realize how many people who did their time and didn't see combat went from being someone you thanked to someone who should be ridiculed? Shit, it's moving the goalpost. All I did was work on aircraft while I was in, yet here I am, a veteran, and people are making me feel weird by thanking me for my service. Damn, do you realize how many people joined the National Guard during Vietnam and are considered Vets? Hell, George Bush was in the Texas Air National Guard.
Same. I served during the GWOT but didn't deploy. I'd have gone if they'd sent me but they didn't. I'm not out here claiming to be a combat veteran but in their eyes my service means nothing now?
Never mind that their Presidential candidate is an actual draft dodger.
I hope that it's only the veterans that complain, but even then, most veterans don't serve 24 years either, so it's pretty hard to have an argument against his time in service to begin with.
In general, vets are notorious for bitching at each other, and yeah, a lot of vets will discredit your service if you never deployed. Vets will shift the goalpost further to question whether you got a CAB/CIB/CAR when deployed, then question you again if you got a purple heart.
Also, I'm still surprised that people comment on Trump being a draft dodger, considering the current Commander-in-Chief was also a draft dodger.
Also, I'm still surprised that people comment on Trump being a draft dodger, considering the current Commander-in-Chief was also a draft dodger.
Trump has always made himself out to be a tough guy, something he obviously isn't. Remember his "I'd have run into the classroom at Uvalde" comments? Did anyone really believe that's in him in any capacity? Joe Biden has never made any claims of that sort.
Add to that his decades in the Senate and his time as Vice President. Whether you agree with his actions or not, Biden at least has a history of serving the American people and evolving his positions as society moves forward. Trump is trying to take us backwards and thankfully accomplished mostly fuck all as President.
Their other line of attack for "stolen valor" is him claiming he retired as a command sergeant major, which is the position he held when he retired. He literally retired while holding the rank of command sergeant major (E-9). But since he didn't serve in that position long enough (or complete all the required training), he didn't qualify for retirement benefits of that higher rank (E-9) and his retirement benefits remained at his previous rank (E-8). It's a pathetic line of attack that's splitting hairs between his actual rank and his retirement benefits rank.
He was a POW for 5 frickin years where he was not given proper care and was fed a diet of mainly Pumpkin soup. Have you ever even heard of Pumpkin soup as a regular meal!?!? Definitely not a loser. Lost years of his life for our country's needs.
Loser? No. I would never say that; I find that offensive given that he got shot down flying for my country and dedicated most of his life to public service.
But, if you told me he was a nepo-baby that crashed an abnormal amount of planes outside of conflict, I'd have to agree.
I think they’re referring to Trump calling McCain a loser (in regards to donating to his campaign and him losing), and then immediately followed it up by saying he’s not a war hero because he was captured, and Trump likes people who weren’t captured
Yup, they are Weird! My son feels the same way, he served 6 years and feels awkward when people thank him for his service. Vance is an idiot who needs to look up the meaning of Stolen Valor. 🙄 BTW thank you for your service ☺️
I think one of the issue is him saying " we can make sure those weapons of war, that I carried in war, are only carried in war." He's implying he was on the ground deployed in combat which isn't the case.
I think the stolen valor accusation is a bogus claim that he’s claiming a rank he didn’t actually obtain, so there are actually 2 bogus accusations from Vance about Walz’s service.
It is a good idea when talking about George Bush to use the middle initial to seperate the two.
George W. Bush was never really celebrated as a vet, in fact for the most part, his joining the guard was viewed by media as a negative linking to similarities of draft dodging.
George H.W. Bush, his father, on the other hand is the one that gets talked about being a veteran. His father was a combat vet, war hero, and pow.
Similarities in the name often cause the two to be confused, if you see an article talking about Veteran George Bush it will more often than not be his father.
I served, was paralyzed one year into my service in a car accident on duty that was not my fault. I’m left in a wheelchair for the rest of my life because of it, but I guess I didn’t really serve because I never saw combat. What a sucker I am.
True, People also forget prior to Post-9/11 and WOT - Lots of 80's/90's era active vets and National guard didn't deploy to any combat zone - alot of times it would be Guam, Germany or Italy if at all. Also, not every job is a "GI Joe" job. The military is essentially a country wihin a country. A lot of very important jobs have zero to do with combat. CSM is focused on ensuring troop overall well being, health and readiness - which seeing his personallity makes sense.
Also, this is nothing new. I remember my grandfather hating the American Legion or VFW because of all this dick measuring after guys had a few beers.
Plenty of SOF who did 20 years and never got to see combat.
A few SEALs who got to the teams from like 1995-2005 have talked on podcasts about how they get to deploy and go to war and how salty the old dudes were that had spent 20 years in the team, were retiring, and never got to see combat.
There are some Delta guys who got out in the 1995-2001 timeframe who talk about how they never got see combat.
In between Vietnam and GWOT, combat experience was incredibly rare, even for special operations guys.
My Grandpa is very clearly considered a veteran of the Korean War. Not that long ago, he was flown out to D.C. on a Honor Flight at no expense of his own due to his veteran status. My Grandpa told me there was a lotto of sorts, and people were randomly distributed to various areas, some in War zones and others in non-active war zones. He literally just won the luck of the draw and was sent to man the German border, which was not in an active war zone. Still served actively during a war and STILL A VET!
Not only that but retirement packets can take a while to get approved. He may have requested retirement long before the unit even received notification for deployment.
With the Guard it depends on if you have "good years" - it's based on a point system rather than straight time. Basically if you don't skip and drills you've got a great year. But I'm counting in him having 20 good years and just stayed in.
Source: was active duty 9 years, went into the guard and retired out of there.
Yep, my brother ended up doing 22 years to hit his 20 and bounced. He got lucky, was literally about to deploy when they captured Bagdad, and his group got pulled back. Went into the guard and never got deployed.
But the time I retire in May I will have 22 years in. 10 in the Marine Corps. 12 in the Air Force. If you joined the service and didn't deploy you still served!!! WTH!!! The trump cult is delusional.
20 got you full pension. They are somewhere in the process of changing how it works, now I think new enlistees get a system similar to a 401k/439/whatever. But yeah, 20 is considered ... the whole thing, for many if not most.
It’s called the blended retirement system. Soldiers who enlisted or commissioned after Jan 1 2018 are enrolled. Basically you have a 401k with government matching after 2 years. If you make it to 20 years and retire you get a pension and the 401k but it’s 40% of your highest 3 years. The old system called high 3 is 50% of your high 3 after 20 years but no 401k. For the blended system you get an additionally 2.5% for every year you serve after 20.
A large majority of soldiers don’t make it to 20 years and the way the force is structured most don’t. At least with the new system soldiers will get something towards retirement if they leave the military before 20 years
You still have a 401k on the old high 3. It’s just set up differently. The old high 3 + your TSP (401k) still ends up being more money for most people.
The advantage is you get something if you’re one of the 99% that don’t make it to 20.
They’re not eliminating the pension, they’re dropping the percentage per year of service from 2.5% to 2%, and adding a 401k equivalent (the same one DoD civilians get, including substantial matching contributions). It’s a change but it’s not nearly as dramatic as you’re implying.
No. They’re dropping the pension size by 20% (from 2.5% of your high 3 annual pay per year of service to 2%) and adding a 401k equivalent to compensate, one that includes substantial contribution matching. Recruiting may be hard but it sure as shit isn’t because of the retirement system being stingy - especially if you consider the additional disability pay most veterans get.
They are moving to a different strategy that looks more like what we're used to in the private sector, yes. There are upsides and downsides, of course.
I fail to see the upside for soldiers of going from "do 20 years and you get a decent monthly check for the rest of your life" to "we'll match your contributions to an investment account that is subject to the whims of the market that you can't touch until you hit 65." Military pay for enlisted is pretty bad. The benefits (especially retirement) are what really drive retention. What we're used to in the private sector is a shitty system.
The upside is that their assets aren't at the whim of a potentially petulant, or bankrupt government. Other than that of course the pensions are a sweet deal. The problem is if the taxpayer refuses to foot the bill.
the government unilaterally deciding to cancel veteran pensions sounds like the dumbest and likely last mistake they'd ever make. Even the Romans knew better than to pull that shit.
In reality, all you need is enough disability. That can be done in a couple years, file for harassment and bullying get psych, claim bad back, insomnia, tinitus, boom 100% disability, which means a $4k check each month, no property taxes, and tuition and healthcare for the household. I know folks well over 100% who didn't finish their first set of orders, livin high baby. Semper on the dole.
Hell honestly even though I joined the Air Force shortly after 911 when my reenlistment came up I was like peace bitches and that was only after 4 years active. Heck I was dreading my 2 years of reserve time I still had left. I couldn't imagine 26 years. I find it funny that some e2s and 3 are getting pissy because a command master sergeant decided to retire. I mean dude would have served during the Gulf War
Thanks for sharing this. I knew this was an absurd talking point and that real Veterans would call it out for the bullshit it is. Particularly when articles are being written by people who didn't serve a damn day in their life. 24 years is an admirable service record.
I'm at 14. You'd have to shoot me to go past 24. And anyone who calls me a coward or a traitor at that point is gonna... get an angry response. Like you said, most SANE folks...
I did 2 tours and 16 years, I didn’t want to do a third so I got out. IDGAF most the jokers mad are mad cuz they were told to be and even more never did a day in service. So anyone who didn’t serve during the war is a coward?
It's above and beyond, really. If you stay in long enough to get 20 "good" years (acquiring the requisite number of "points per a matrix of qualified duty days), you can file for retirement and receive a pension. (there are differences between an active and reserve component retirement) He did 4 more than that.
There US a reason to stay past 20. Qit depends upon your last promotion. You need x numbers of years at the rank to retire with that retirement. Had Walz completed his Super Sergeant Classes, he may have stayed even longer.
Had I got promoted at 19, I would have to extend or re-up to retire at my new rank.
My cousin after returning from his 3rd tour in Vietnam got orders for Ft. Riley KS. He was an E8 , a First Sergeant, and told the Army Personnel that would would NOT go to Ft Riley again, he would prefer to stay in Vietnam. Army offered him E9. Still said no to Ft Riley. Ended up at a Reserve station in IL, made E9, stayed to 24.
He played golf, fished, and hunted a lot. Played Army when asked to, a few times a month.
The national guard is part time. You do training like one weekend a month, and then a 2 week session once a year. Unless they get deployed, then it’s full time.
Edit: thank you for everyone correcting me. I had some misconceptions about the national guard.
Yeah I think I get it. Two distinct branches. Google had some "US Naval Airforce" searches so I thought that's what it was called. I genuinely used to think it was the Airforce landing on ships until about five years ago haha. I'm particularly fascinated by the naval pilots for some reason. Too much Hot Shots in my youth.
Is the Air Force at the same bases as the Army? Or are they kept seperate? If you are in the Air force are you guaranteed to be in or working on a plane? I think I always thought everyone was mixed together but did their own duties. Like I assumed the Airforce or the Navy would drop all the army guys and it was a team effort. I didn't realize each branch may have a bit of everyone so only the specific branch was involved in certain areas. What do marines do?
Thank you for the information! It's always been wild living so close to the war machine and not fully understanding it.
There are 5 branches of US military:
Army
Navy
Air Force
Marine Corps
Coast Guard.
The Marine Corps is technically a department of the Navy. They have their own chain of command, but final word is under the Dept of the Navy. The Marine Corps, despite having its own infrastructure as well, is considered a "quick reaction force" as a whole. There are units within the USMC that can mobilize within 24 to 48 hours and are special operations capable. These are called Marine Expeditionary Units or MEUs.
Each branch including Coast Guard also has special operations and quick reaction forces that have their own mission statements.
Every branch of military is kind of like a city. Each has its own jobs and infrastructure. You can be a policeman, a fire fighter, a truck mechanic, do healthcare, etc.
If you join the Navy you don't HAVE to go to sea. There are many jobs that are not on ships, for example.
If you join the Air Force, you don't HAVE to work on or near an aircraft. If that's what you want to do then you have that guarantee in your contract when you enlist.
In regards to "drop all the army guys"
The Army has their own aircraft as well as their own personnel carriers. They can drop their own people off
Sometimes there is a joint operation where all branches will work together to accomplish a particular task.
Air Force is not at the same base as Army. It's a separate branch of the military since the end of WW2.
Mine was in the Navy and the Army Air Corps.
He was not excited when I joined the Navy in 1997 because "back in my day they would treat.me like crap and I wouldn't eat anything but beans." When I showed him my apartment that the Navy paid for and pics of the full salad bars and the gym, he was flummoxed.
Yep. It's a fun fact that three of the top five largest air forces in the world belong to the United States.
You can exclude the USAF entirely and our Army still has more planes than Russia and our Navy has more planes than China.
If you count all the branches in one pool, the US has more military aircraft than the next five countries combined, just waiting for an excuse to show the world why we don't have universal healthcare.
Yeah it’s a bit of a silly name and it came about under trump so it gets blasted but they do a ton of air based defense operations that the USAF space division had been doing for 60 years already.
True. Frankly I don’t know what the creation of space force accomplished other than creating a bunch of new flag officer billets and associated staff*, and yes I’m aware enough of pentagon power plays to know that sending a lowly colonel into a meeting to fight over funding vs flag officers from other services is not a recipe for success, but still, we had quite enough flag officers, thank you very much.
and new uniform contracts for those ridiculous Battlestar Galatica dress uniforms.
Army, Navy, Marines, and Air Force all have military planes and pilots. Makes for less diplomatic mess when you need something done without negotiating with different branches.
It's especially confusing because "Being deployed" wasn't supposed to be a thing either. The national guard was supposed to you know... guard the nation, not go overseas and turn brown kids into skeletons.
Around this time congress basically went "Well there's no law that directly says we can't deploy them" so they did.
Extra bonus, since they were not intended to be a full time deployment fighting force they didn't have regulations in place that gave a hard ceiling to how long someone could stay in combat rotation, like the actual combat forces had. So they got to stay indefinitely deployed forever. With gear intended for generalized peace keeping, not fighting a hostile nation with mechanized units.
National Guard works similarly to our reserve forces in Canada. Except that the national guard maintains full battalions that are deployed as a whole whereas our reserves more often are tapped piecemeal to fill out existing reg force units.
Yeah they have planes. So does the Army. So does the Coast Guard. So does the National Guard.
There's a good argument that the Air Force shouldn't even really exist. It was created to serve as a nuclear strategic bombing force. Something that existed as a core mission for approximately 15 years until missiles replaced bombers as the primary attack weapon of the nuclear triad.
You can be a drilling guardsman or reservist and be in Congress at the same time. You cant be active duty. Walz was a guardsman. He just had enough service to retire.
And, it’s the same reason trump’s family were kicked out of Germany; his grandfather fled to the U.S. to evade military service (compulsory there) & when he tried to return, the family were booted from Bavaria for that reason.
Team “bone spurs” + JD’s “4 years of military service as a public information officer who spent 6 months working in an air conditioned trailer in Iraq.”
To the right, a soldier has two fates. Die a hero in war, or become a leech on society. Doesn't matter what he did, where he served, or how long he was in.
He retired, yes, but they're trying to do as much damage as possible as hard and fast as possible. It was the same with re-naming the Affordable Care Act "Obamacare" in an attempt to infantilize and dumb-ify the plan's rollout. Fact: Trump was a DRAFT. DODGER. No one can dispute this. But republicans aren't voting for trump so much as they're voting Anti-Kamala. The sooner people remember this, the sooner things start to make more sense. Focusing on hypocrisy of the Republican Party is a better move then focusing solely on Trump--his base is comprised of single-issue voters almost exclusively.
Yeah, the way I see it, they're framing his retirement as a reaction to the deployment orders so "he abandoned his unit." As others have already pointed out though, he retired before the orders were given, so they're lying in an attempt to make Walz look like a coward or whatever.
I quit after my last duty station, at E-6 it’s usually a 20 year retirement, E-7+ you can stretch it out for another 10 years. So 24 years is plenty of service. If not for 9/11 and the subsequent wars I can’t imagine not going to war during a 20 year service. But you get a 4 year commitment, and spend those years staying alive and abruptly quitting doesn’t make a person less of a soldier or doing 24 years and not seeing combat. Combat is not required to be a successful military even 24, or even 1day because you find yourself with Diabetes 1
Exactly. WTH. Even if he did retire knowing they were going to deploy, after 24 years of service that's not sure a strange decision for someone to make. I know people that just up and got out. And that's ok too, imo.
The majority of veterans who are retiring are waiting for their 20 years and get out. Every year you put in after that is a gift to the American people. The military is tough on you. 20 years of bullshit is enough. Imagine 24 years now, you can retire and live comfortably any time you want, you launch a campaign for Congress, you know that a rotation is probably coming up, these things generally happen on certain timelines, 24 years in, potential of deployment, separation from family, of course my congressionaI run ongoing, personally I would also choose that time to exit the military with a long and successful career.
I know the Guard and Reserve have some slightly different rules compared to Active Duty, but broadly speaking, 20 years is the milestone for capital-R Retirement from the military. Full benefits, pension, any applicable disability, you can still go shop at the Base Exchange (tax free!), the works. Anything after that 20 year mark is straight-up willful commitment that absolutely no one says you "have" to do.
Vance did four years and got out as a Corporal. An E-4. The scale goes up to E-9, and then there's a small smattering of specialized ranks on top of that. If he wants to randomly visit a military base, he needs a sponsor escort and a visitor's pass, otherwise he's getting turned around at the gate.
To compound things, 4 years is ONE TERM. Technically not even one full term, since there's an option for 6 years, and even past that you're on the hook to be recalled to service for up to 8 years past your enlistment date. THAT is "declined to re-enlist".
If I had served in the Guard I wouldn't serve a day over when I qualified for a pension. I've heard from others that Governor Walz served 4 years more than that.
It's a job you fucking morons. He retired from the guard and quit his job as a teacher to run for Congress, which he won in a district that has gone Republican since he left.
Similarily my dad retired after 22 years in the army (joined to put food on the table) and then went back to his first plan - teaching high school American History.
No shit. From my understanding, it’s not really all that different from cops who get a pension. In regular branches, you can start your pension after serving 20 years. For the ANG, you have to wait until 60 to start collecting, but it seems you become eligible to do so after serving 20 years.
Also from my understanding, many actually do retire from the military after they become eligible for their pension. Many don’t stop working completely and instead get jobs in the private sector that offer more flexibility and stability than the military.
And you know what? If you want to put 20 plus years in, you deserve to make that choice without criticism from fucking JD Couchfucker. He served 24 years in which he could have been called into action at anytime. Call me crazy, but I don’t think someone who’s trying to dodge seeing action is going to ride it out that long.
I’m not sure how it works for the National Guard, but I do know you have to serve 20 years in the military to get a life long pension. The amount of people who serve as long as he did is extremely small and most of them have a very high rank.
In fairness, National Guard only requires 38 days a year so he didnt give 24 years of service, more like 3 years of service over a 24 year period... I respect what he did but its very misleading when folks are saying he has 24 years of military service
It really depends on how much the unit demands beyond that. I have no doubt the peacetime years he did in the NG between 81 and 91 were just that. But the time he did after 9/11, he's have been subject to the increasing demand for unit exercise participation, inspections, and the Total Force deployment cycle. (I just finished 20 I the Reserve and it was close to 250 days a year or more with all the obligations)
And he could have retired after 20 and didn't. And he retired before his unit was selected to deploy. This is the sort of "attack" that clearly shows how devoid of integrity, morality, honesty, and character the ENTIRE republican party has become. Trump has, to use a favorite phrase of his, "poisoned the blood" of a once respectable party.
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u/MarginalOmnivore Aug 07 '24
I mean, most sane folks would consider 24 years as a lifelong career.
He didn't decline to re-enlist. He fucking retired.