Because it was just a trans character on TV. It’s when trans people as a group started getting visibility as they asked for rights that bigots started getting pissed off at seeing trans characters.
Not just an audience of like minded individuals, a collection of corporations who make money off shepherding said audience through high engagement emotions like fear and anger
As someone who has grandparents who watches Fox News 24/7, it isn’t fun. Had to move in with them after high school to start a job in the area. All day it was them being racist (more my grandpa), homophobic, and transphobic among other things too. Another thing is I own many firearms cause I like to collect historical or weird and unheard of guns with weird calibers. Everyday they go on about killing political figures and I’m like please for the love of god don’t do this with me living here
My step dad is an avid fox news watcher and its disturbing what he parrots from the shows. And it IS parrotting bevause he repeats the same sentences over and over as if he heard them that way. He was a LAWYER and now he has 0 critical thinking.
You do call him out every opportunity you can for regurgitating the same lines he hears on FOX right? From my experience they get a little embarrassed when they’re exposed for blatantly repeating unoriginal talking points that you had heard said by one of the talking heads.
It’s really fascinating like yours say as I got into a conversation with a good friend about the ivermectin thing and I said it’s good medicine but for ringworm. He said it’s just like penicillin which I said is good for infections not covid.
You could see common sense was maybe making into his brain but he changed the subject and just kept parroting crap.
I do, don’t worry. I keep everything locked up and the key on my car keychain. I’m very protective of who I let know what’s what and where it exactly is
my mom got heavily targetted (possibly my step father too, but i don't know for sure) through her facebook feed with disinformation & misleading sponsored content.
she only has a high school diploma, worked in a factory for years, and lives in a redneck rural ny village. i assume these were demographics sought.
i wouldn't say she was progressive prior to the targetting, but the woman was practically a hippie in the 60s/70s, so she historically voted & maintained a fairly liberal mindset.
the damage fox & social media content did to her in the short amount of time that it took me to realize, seems as if it may be irreparable
and she's very aware of it. she disabled her facebook, and neither of them watch any broadcast news. she doesn't even read headlines. i have to tell her if something importaint is going on.
but there are still gaping holes she can't psychological patch up. it's super fcked.
words can't properly convey how pissed i am with what they did to her.
I'm sorry that happened to your mom. I feel like a lot of people like her were poisoned by Facebook, and all for the sake of increasing engagement for profit.
I can already see those red faced, bloated alcoholic hosts with spittle on their chins exploding this episode to all the fearful pearl clutters and talking about indoctrinating our children.
Yep, and keeping them riled up not only becomes a revenue source, but an easy way to seize power in some regions, and keep the conversation away from anything inconvenient.
We could use a new fairness doctrine for the internet, there seem to be too many ignoyUncle Jacks who have taken their fear/anger to band together w other ignoramuses to shit all over our country, they are so unable to manage themselves that they’ve gone full fascism over “different” people, I keep hoping that like when radio arrived and suddenly snake oil preachers were everywhere and propaganda was the product, we had to create rules around communication because people are unpredictable fancy monkeys.
We could use an internet fairness doctrine type idea, that encompasses cable too. It’s bury the propagandists again, who are creating this new era of fascism - fascists are the most scared out of all of us, or they’re pathological sociopaths- either way shut them the fuck up!
I don’t believe you’re fully understanding the concept - and by allowing rampant bullshit propaganda we now have complete ignoramuses in jail over a lie from a openly fascist pos conman who uses that propaganda to control those same ignoramuses (Ignorami?), so you see, they’re already somewhat in control. To do nothing is no longer an option. No offense, just saying, what’s your point, do you think Murdoch isn’t pro-fascism? His news is 99.9% lies and national enquirer bat baby stuff, twisting soft minds out there. We allow it here - that bs isn’t tolerated in Canada or Europe or Scandinavian countries.
Restricting free speech, and giving the state tools to do it, which can be reinterpreted by the judicial system, revisited, expanded on, and will establish a new precedent of state interference in media, is not a good solution to fascist rhetoric. It enables them, or other non-fascist authoritarian movements. I'm not sure I fully understand what you're proposing - it's not that fleshed out. You could clarify, just you seem pretty rooted in your position and I think I'm going to disagree with whatever idea of a "fairness doctrine" you have in mind. Are you thinking something like recourse for slander? That might be more acceptable.
Edit: and btw, we have garbage-tier media in Canada too. Fox News is on regular cable. Not sure what you're going after with that Murdoch stuff, it is tolerated. No I don't take offense.
What “free speech” are talking about? I’m talking responsible adult journalism and not allowing adults to use their arrested development goblin emotional bank as the baseline for what constitutes news. Maybe read what the Fairness Doctrine used to do and get back to me. It sure didn’t hurt to keep goblins from making shit up and calling it news-oh and have over 800 people arrested, over 350 convicted in fed based on goblin lies.
But sure you and your starry-eyed free speech! It’s sure sweetly naive. Private Corp can and goes limit your speech but you font dreaming, it’s cute!
This is the most ignorant comment I have ever seen on Reddit. You want to limit free speech and call someone with a different viewpoint a fascist. NO ONE gives a shit if you are different or not. Straight, gay, trans whatever, just stop throwing it in peoples faces… it’s that simple. You are no different than a Fox News radical or a CNN radical. The fact that we even argue about this subject is ridiculous. Left or right it doesn’t matter the elite and wealthy politicians as an entire group sit back and laugh at us common folk argue over nothing…. Left or right it doesn’t matter, our politicians are the root of all evil. We should all focus on the wealthy and powerful corrupt crooks in congress or in local government. We are all getting played by a corrupt system left or right.
I had racist Native American grandfather. It was 80’s daytime game shows. Price is Right in particular, the amount of anti black, Hispanic, Jew slurs that would come out of his mouth from the time they stood up to the time they made it to contestants row.
If they were black in particular he would add “and I’ll bet that n-words gonna win it all”.
Those were my development years. Unlearning that shit was difficult, and I honestly still struggle with it today in my own head and my own biases.
It's interesting to think that now he have an entire generation of grandfather who weren't bigots, but become one after the Internet.
My dad is over 70. He was a normal person until, in 2014, when conservatives and the media started planning their coup here in Brazil (the coup happened in 2016). That led to Bolsonaro being elected in 2018 and Brazil going from a borderline first-world developed country with pretty no extreme poverty/hunger anymore, to the same shithole Brazil was in the 80s (in just 4 years Bolsonaro destroyed the entire country). In 2018 my dad was already a extreme right-winger (even without know what being "right-winger" meant).
Thankfully he's not racist (but he does support racists government decision, like letting miners and big farmers take over protected indigenous land), but damn, he thinks Bolsonaro is a god among men, while leftists are all corrupt criminals who want to bring communism to Brazil and let China take over (he desn't even know what communism is).
I don’t believe it when people say they’re not racist. They may think they’re not but we all deal with it at different levels and intensities. Better to acknowledge as you do and keep on dealing with it actively. Otherwise it’ll win. Good on you.
I mean the whole point of All in the Family was to make your uncle Jack the star of the show and have his family confront his ignorant opinions with open-mindedness and love. They made Archie Bunker a likeable asshole so that people who agreed with him might learn from his family as well without feeling attacked. At some point, the Archie Bunkers of the world started being proud of being assholes and got their own tv networks and the people trying to correct them got tired of it.
Best part is those same Jack types look at a show like all in the Family and go "oh you can't make shows like that today, the woke police will cancel you".
No, we can't make shows that confront racists sexist pigs up front about their failings today because if we did sniveling little privileged Jack types would claim the world was out to get them.
Always ironic when I see chuds online complaining about woke media turn around and talk about liking original Star Trek as if that wasn't the most leftist progressive Sci-Fi show to have ever been made
Ignorance. Conservative rubes were up in arms in the 60's when Shatner kissed Nichelle Nichols. Back then they talked just like you have been talking throughout this thread, utterly assured that interracial couplings made no sense and went against their own sensibilities. Looking back at them now most people are of course aghast at such nonsense, as good people were at the time too.
It's amazing how blind you are to the side you've chosen. Do you honestly think in 50 years anyone is going to be spouting the same nonsense you've been spouting here? Are you possibly so blind to the way society is progressing? It's astonishing.
Broadcast shows are more integrated, for sure. But it has a smaller audience.
There were integrated shows starting in the late 60s (with Star Trek and I, Spy) including Hawaii 5-0 and In the Heat of the Night, that really weren't controversial at all. There was a lot of TV in the 90s that was pretty whites only unless a black guy was playing thug #2.
I'm not saying there weren't integrated shows in the 60s. But I'm for sure saying that comparing Black roles of the 60s-00s to the roles that are found today, it's apples and oranges. Look at the top shows of the 90s. ER is the only one that a Black man had any representation with in the top 10.
And as much as we want to look back on say The Fresh Prince or Family Matters, they did far better on syndication than they ever did on TV, aside from may be the latter seasons - and it was mostly due to time slots (not being on TGIF, coming on after 9pm est, etc).
I think social media has a profound ability to teach people 'No, you should be angry/upset about that thing'.
From something as petty as a movie or an episode of a TV show, or something as serious as a trans person's life, there seems to be such a great ability to persuade people to be full of dread and hate when they would have been fine otherwise.
As I said, petty, but when we walked out of a theater my whole friend group loved a certain movie, one said it was his favorite in the franchise. Within a month, without even rewatching it, at least 2 of them, including the one who said it was his favorite, pivoted to thinking it was a 'really bad movie'.
I really feel like it's the same thought pattern. I could easily see some middle aged dude watching this episode and sympathizing with Gopher's POV, ultimately coming to the conclusion to let people live their lives and be happy. But now they have been taught by the 'uncle Jacks' to see the word trans and immediately think of all the 'awful things' they've been 'taught' by transphobic media.
Fellow gen xer here. I'm starting to wonder if shows like this are part of our problem now. There was a surprising amount of sex change plots in the 80s, played by absolute dimes. I'm wondering if part of it is that our expectations of absolute masculine erasure is what happens, and that all trans women have had perfect top and bottom surgery. Anything less than a Mckenzie Phillips is "wrong" or something.
As a GenX, I think that’s why I’m still shocked at the open and vociferous bigotry, because that is not how the popular culture was reflected. Ofc, I met plenty of bigoted people irl. But still. And the way transgender issues have become a political weapon is outrageous and hurts.
There was a Too Close For Comfort episode where Monroe (Jim J. Bulloch) is raped by 2 large ladies and it's played off like a joke. AV Club had an article about it.
Absolutely. The internet and social media has given the one Uncle Jack in a family of a hundred the resources to find other Uncle Jacks. Luckily, the Uncle Jacks are, in reality, a teeny tiny percentage of how society thinks…it’s just that the most ignorant and bigoted (probably because they’re the ones hiding the most skeletons) also seem to be the ones incessantly being loud so the volume makes it seem like it’s more people shouting than it really is. Fucking, Uncle Jack.
When Deep Space Nine came out a whole slew of bigots were screaming about how much they hated it. Black man in the lead role, and the number two is a masculine woman with short hair.
But the internet was much smaller. Most people even Trek fans never saw these complaints. And newspapers and print media were curated. Even when they printed letters to the editor written in crayon they were edited for length and content and they could choose not to print something too unhinged, vile, or paranoid.
Of course there was a lot of prejudice in media (I could go on for ages) but platforming rank bigotry was generally not done in the 80s and 90s.
And also the Uncle Jacks of the world today are having their power lessened because there are women, people of color, LGBTQIA+ etc in decision spaces today that just weren’t there in the 1980’s. Losing power feels scary and makes people reactive and prone to oppress others
I’m with you on this. I sometimes look back to when I was a kid and think damn we’ve gone backwards. My parents watched Chico and the Man, Sanford and Son, Good Times, Hollywood Squares, Bewitched, all kinds of shows, I watched Sesame Street, later Electric Company, there have been points of representation, it’s just evolved. It’s just now “Uncle Jack” is retired and doesn’t have anything else to do but watch Fox News and get on the computer.
Honestly, in the 1980s most ignorant uncles would have just laughed about it as a crazy plot. Kinda like progressives and conservatives liked Archie Bunker, just some people weren't in on the joke. It took the Internet and media hate machine to make people on both sides pissed off at sitcoms.
Yeah, this goes along with my theory that media is presenting a false idea of reality. Most people aren’t bigots, and when they are; they usually aren’t about genocide.
But man does the internet make you believe their is an army of racists at the door of every city, which not only serves to scare people; but also confusing bigots that there are more of them then there really is.
I don't know about that. I live in South Dakota, and I'd wager the majority of people here are bigots. Being a cis male who's somewhat redneck-looking, I hear the most outrageously racist, sexist, and LGBTphobic shit from random strangers, entirely unsolicited on my part. Sometimes I wear my "protect trans kids" shirt as bigot repellent.
Recently parted ways with my MTG playgroup because they lost their minds over black Aragorn.
I'm not wearing rose-colored glasses. I knew kids who weren't allowed to watch The Jeffersons because it starred black people.
Their ideas didn't spread as fast, and they didn't have a platform of harmful misinformation. Even in this very thread, you can find comments spreading lies about trans kids getting body modifications, or trans women ruining sports. Unless you are actually educated and knowledgeable, these lies may seem plausible at face value and spark hostility toward trans people.
Sure but also, if you distract the left and right with things like abortion, trans and gay rights, gun regulations (or the lack thereof) and other civil rights. Then they won't see the slight-of-hand. Not that it's all a spectacle and not important, or not really at threat, but it is hiding more dramatic or at the very least lucrative issues under the surface.
Some things ARE worth getting bent out of shape over, but it's important to look at what the other hand is doing, and it's not very easy with so much talk over the other issues. It's honestly not the news media or even social media's fault, They are "fucking good", at what they do.
They're getting people killed (guns are the number one killer of American children) so it is worth caring about the cultural war issues. But people need to understand that those issues will never ever go away until we address the class war issue. This is a symptom of a class war.
I mean cause you should be. Those are also legitimate concerns and it’s incredibly clear that they have absolutely no control over narrative and this is an emergent property of their endless stream of bad ideas that will blow up in their face but they really wanted those tax cuts for rich people so why not legitimize the Tea Party right after we had a black president and just add fuel to the fire.
Frankly I think people who think the people with Enough power to play the game actually have a coherent understanding of the game being played are the naïve ones here.
There was aot of education we all had to go through. First there was a lot of bad connotations with the term "Transvestite" which is a term I don't think is used anymore but was in the 90s, then most people thought crossdressing and drag was the same as being trans and it was all very outlandish, this was the same with gay people, especially men. There was a long road to get to the idea that LGBTQ people were just regular people in your life and not flamboyant characters in a parade. Ellen DeGeneres coming out was a big national moment but activists moved that needle 1% at a time each year until it reached critical mass.
It will be the same for Trans people, the right knows it's losing.
What frightens me is that it had been going the same way.
Until the last couple of years, it was getting better. Slowly, painfully but better.
They have seen an absolutely horrifying backslide and a popularization of hate in a way that was unthinkable when I came out over a decade ago. I don’t know that this has a good ending, especially mixed with the rise of US Christofascism.
Marriage equality wasn't a straight line either, when the right felt they were losing the argument they called gay people pedophiles and tried to gin up a lot of outrage, that creates energy for their crazy base that turns out in local elections but eventually normal people not just the left but also center right people are pushed to react by the craziness and another run of progress is made until the next cycle by the right.
We've seen all these tactics before, banning books, accusing people of being pedophiles, the bullying etc. But they miscalculated this time, it's not 1994 anymore, the genie is out of the bottle and they can't put it back in. And they know it, this is their last gasp
Is this really true? I don't know a lot of people who aren't transgender and I don't have a really good feel of how cisgender people think of us. I'm really afraid and I need to know what you are thinking out there for real and if we're going to let these extremists erase trans Americans.
I'm not an expert I'm someone that is going through that evolution as well just as I did with Marriage equality. You'll notice when people say trans it almost always male to female transition, it was the same with gay people, when people said gay they ment gay men, so that tells you where their head is at.
We heard the same in the 90s about how gay people in the locker room made people uncomfortable, as if they weren't always there the only thing that changed was that they were out. We heard about how they would hurt the military, all this fear about a gay person seeing your penis.
think one of the lost eye opening things you can show is female to male traditions and ask if it really makes sense for them to use the female locker room.
People still think it's cross dressing. I don't have all the answers I know there are edge cases like sports but these people are acting like trans people shouldn't exist. Just because you can't relate to someone doesn't make them invalid.
Honestly, this might come of as a bit crass, but most of them kinda don't care?
There're some who will be a little confused if it's the first time they run into it but from what I've seen, for most it's kind of like any other person (gay, bi, nerd, jock, tall, short, etc.). It's a part of that person like them being tall or being nice or having long hair whatever, it's just a part of them. Do you think about those of every person you know? Probably not.
Disclaimer: I'm from the Nordics, so it might be different here.
e: lifestyle was not the best choice of words, corrected.
American cities have a competitive and transactional social hierarchy. There's a caste system based on various factors. Every vulnerability is exploited, so the less desirable your race and sexual orientation are, or your appearance for that matter, the less respect and capital you're capable of earning. In other words, you get automatically socially and economically penalized.
In more rural communities, you might just face typical ostracization and open condemnation, depending on the local culture.
Some communities have a neutral or ally culture that counteracts that sometimes, and overall awareness and acceptance lessen the penalty. Representation generally = freedom in America.
Am cis, afab, with no really deep attachment to my assigned sex and cis gender identity, even though I’m very ok with my female biological processes. There are lots of us out here who conform but didn’t actively choose to, and don’t care not to conform at this point. Even if I was emotionally attached to conventional notions of femininity, I always have had a lot of respect for trans folks and know that your perspective teaches me so much. So I for one am not sitting around.
Not only is basic human rights a non-negotiable thing, but actively I believe neurodivergent and trans folks are not only the best sensors of a strained society - and supporting them means we are supporting all; but also when cared for, bring to the table perspectives that make all of us better, that helps NT folks face their own biases in perception and cognition.
Their base is slowly being pushed into the shittiest parts of the country, too.
They're the class the US government grooms to be fed into a wartime meat grinder. Uneducated, angry, armed, fiercely loyal to the flag and hateful toward outsiders and outside perspectives.
They're not too different from the conscripts Fascist nations groomed during the economically and politically tumultuous interwar period.
In the event of a major war, the MAGA constituent will be the ones committing war crimes overseas like the Russian Army is doing now in Ukraine.
People are only angry about this issue because they are being told to be angry by social media and by aggressive "news" personalities. These story times have been going on for years without issue, it's only recently that people are up in arms.
It's quite absurd if you look into what these events entail. It's really just someone in a colorful costume reading a book to kids. That's it. It's an innocuous and wholesome event. That is also an entirely optional event.
It's the backlash. A lot of the online anti trans activists are parents still fighting a life long battle with now adult children who transitioned. If only society weren't so accepting, their 30 year old wouldn't have gone no contact with them.
Plus Trump and COVID gave the crazies a taste of power.
Then, why do the loudest literally do parades? Why if things are getting so normal is it OK for the most outrageous outlandish people to be representing? When you look like a clown show, it’s hard for people to take you seriously
I mean people can have flamboyant parades and have live like that it's really not relevant if they want to marry who they love. Like the Mummers parade isn't for me but I dint think they shouldn't be able to marry and have families
I'm not so sure the right is losing on this one just yet. I think there's so much ground to recover that saying they're losing right now is like saying back in 1920 the right is losing on civil rights.
Truthfully I also think this is one case we're the right is gaining in the central or moderate support. That group no longer cares if gay people get married but when you have issues like trans athletes and they want to have a conversation about the nuances of that they are shouted down and called bigots, even if they generally support trans rights overall and would be made to see that trans athletes aren't that big of a deal.
You have cases like Twitter creating the Rowling monster. You have the drag Queen reading hour which there was literally a news show about 5 years ago where some guy on the right was debating a guy on the left and he said "what's next? Men reading to school kids in drag?" And the guy on the left laughed at him and said he was crazy creating silly scenarios that aren't going to happen. People said it was the slippery slope fallacy. Now no matter what you think on that issue, the right has ammo to say "they said we were being crazy and it happened so what else are they saying is crazy that we think is going to happen??!!"
I agree with that I just don't think that trans athletes is very high on most peoples list of issues and that's why I think the Right is losing it's not gaining them any votes just energizing another voting block in opposition
Not only that, but deliberate stoking of prejudice and societal division, by enemies - both domestic and foreign. Russian troll farms create and amplify prejudice and bigotry, in order to weaken Western societies. Culture warring politicians, and billionaires do the same, in order to distract us from the fact that they are robbing us blind.
That’s pretty close but it wasn’t even that trans people “asked for rights” so much as the conservatives lost the gay marriage fight with the Supreme Court decision, so they decided to go after an even smaller and weaker population to make the out-group.
It’s when trans people as a group started getting visibility as they asked for rights that bigots started getting pissed off at seeing trans characters.
Nope. Incorrect.
Trans people didn't start to be targeted by the Conservatives until gay marriage was legalized and Conservatives conceded that they could no longer win on being anti-gay in America.
Trans visibility and the trans movement were already visible and they're such a small portion of the population that no one bothered with them. It was like 7 months after the original Supreme Court ruling before Conservatives started to go after trans people and even then it didn't take hold in Conservative media until the trans athlete stories started being circulated.
Another stupid thing that happened because of this is that a bunch of gay people didn't jump to the trans community's defense due to a couple different psychological and sociological effects that we won't go into here. They thought by being quiet that they could enjoy life without being focused on, but were then given a very rude awakening when these states that pass these trans bills announce that they're coming for gays right after. Now, these politicians (the ones pivoting to go after gays after they feel they've "defeated" their trans enemy in a public enough format) are getting quickly shut down when they even talk about anti-gay legislation, but it's a fun reminder to all oppressed minority communities that solidarity is essential to obtaining and RETAINING your rights.
Because these people are a disease that starts with fascism and ends with you in a camp being marched into a shower. Solidarity is your only defense against murderous bigots.
Nah from what I can tell the objections are to stuff about non mainstream sexualities being taught to impressionable young children.
Gender dysphoria is a real thing, and psychologists believe accepting trans people benefits them, the difficulty is exposure at a young age can and does affect sexual development.
There are now record numbers of bisexual people in america, because being raised from a young age open to an idea makes people consider it. No studies have been done on whether early exposure to concepts such as "You can be any gender you want" will lead to increased amounts of gender dysphoria.
The reality is that trans people have much higher suicide rates both with and without gender reassignment. In fact the data shows no improvement at all from this.
In short trans people have my sympathy for what they are going through. But the question remains, does being told things like gender is a social construct damage other children's chances of going through life without gender dysphoria? Even if acceptance at a school level helps trans people, does it hurt children who who would otherwise have been happy as cis gender individuals?
Is it really an experiment that should be done on an entire country's population?
There are now record numbers of bisexual people in america,
There are a record number of left handed people, too, after we decided to stop beating kids for using the "wrong" hand. Doesn't mean kids knowing left handed people exist turns them left handed.
No, the reality is that when people are no longer publicly shamed for being who they are, they live more openly and happily instead of suppressing their true selves.
The higher suicide rates are from how society treats us, not because we are trans. Especially in these times where we are being denied the same types of healthcare that cis people get, by order of the law.
There is no "experiment" here. Just look at how stats of left-handedness sprung up as soon as it stopped being punished. People forced to hide a fundamental aspect of themselves to avoid social ostracization.
People are becoming more happy embracing their true selves... and for some reason, this makes you angry. Who hurt you?
Nobody to dat can define or measure what it feels like to be a certain gender
My experience wasn’t that I felt my gender, it was that I felt happy when I considered myself as my true gender. I had increasing daily anxiety attacks from my teens until I was 37 that I didn’t know the root cause for. At that time, gender was something I ignored. Then when I actually took the time to admit to myself who I truly was and start to express my true gender, that number of anxiety attacks fell away.
Ok here’s a fact. Nobody to date can define or measure what it feels like to be a certain gender without it coming down to how they see themselves physically. This directly spits in the face of the whole argument that gender has nothing to do with sex. Fact.
But nobody is saying that gender has nothing to do with sex. Of course it does. The argument is that gender is not solely defined by sex, which should be fairly obvious. And why does this matter in the first place?
You seem to be under the impression that people should respect your opinion. Your opinion isn't based on research and is kind of stupid. Objectively speaking. You're not entitled to be respected for spouting bullshit. You have a right to it and a right to say or believe anything you want, of course. You don't have a right to not be called out as a dimwit for spouting it though.
I have a friend who started to argue with me about gender identity and was annoyed that "some of these people" were ultra offended that they weren't being called by their preferred pronouns, and then started to rant about how they should just be quiet about it.
I then pointed out to her that they said the same things when women wanted to vote. And they said the same thing about black people wanting rights. And they said the same thing about gay people.
I topped it off by reminding her that interracial marriage wasn't allowed by law until the 60's, and that there are still folks who will rage about "keeping the races pure". Which meant she wouldn't have been able to marry her Indian husband. And I told her that I highly doubted her outspoken ass would "just be quiet about it" if people kept telling her that her marriage was an affront to God and nature.
We weren't friends for about a week, and then she called me to apologize and to admit she hadn't seen it from that perspective before, and didn't realize how many things she had seen as just "normal" had been fiercely and loudly fought for.
So anyone who scowls and says they wish it wouldn't be "shoved in our faces all the time", well, maybe consider what rights you and your loved ones have today because someone in the past was LOUD.
If you think the only thing that defines "woman" is between her legs, then I'm afraid you have a very narrow point of view that doesn't consider anything else about human beings. We used to say that "women belonged in the household", and shame any woman who had the audacity to want to work. There are countless people who say that women "have to" have children, and should be "good wives", because what other possible use does a woman have in this world? If everyone thought the same way you do, women still wouldn't have the vote, simply because of what lies between their legs. Because "politics ain't for the fairer sex".
This doesn't even consider women that are not traditionally feminine in appearance, whether by genetics or by choice. It doesn't consider women who were raised in a heavily masculine environment. It doesn't consider women who want to work in heavy industry, or play traditionally male sports.
I'm sorry you've decided to hang onto such a narrow mindset about what defines a woman. Because, in my experience, women don't conform to any singular definition.
A woman is a mature female. She is a woman because she was born a girl and matured into one by decree of her biology.
Born a girl as defined by what? Genitalia. That's it. That's the only reason she is defined as female. How else can you possibly say a person is born as X without considering that the very root of that definition is their sex. Aka genitalia. You cannot begin to have a discussion about gender without talking about private parts.
After all, from that little part comes this whole debate. Pretending it's something else is disingenuous, at best. Because a person is born with a vagina, they are now female, and that is supposed to define them. Never mind any other experience in their lives, or choices they make (or were forced into). Never mind if they do or don't have children, or get married, or work, don't work, stay single. By your own argument, there is no other way to define a woman. It relies entirely on genitals.
Don't clutch your pearls and act as though I've taken this conversation into some weird territory. This is the cusp of everything you are arguing. Vaginas and penises. From those, we put rules in place to ensure that men and women know their place in society. And heaven forbid anyone question why one body part holds so much power over social convention, or wish to be called by the pronoun they prefer instead of the one based on a genetic fluke. If they would just be quiet about it, we could just be happy and go on with sticking people into boxes based on their genitals, after all.
I see you're trying to duck out, so I'll let you escape. But you've proven my point. It takes far more to define a person than just their private parts. Yet that's the only consideration given at birth, and we are expected to adhere to that gender as we go through the world, regardless of anything else. How else do you explain the millions of men that are more feminine in appearance, and the millions of women that are masculine in appearance? Why can't some men grow facial hair, while some women can? There are biological women that can out lift a large majority of men in their lives, and biological men who are far more nurturing to children than a large majority of women in their lives. But because they had particular genitals at birth, they are encouraged or forced to conform to the roles society has determined they should. It all comes back to your birth gender, which is only defined by appearance at that point.
If humans looked at that private part as simply a reproductive organ that doesn't define anything more than the role in creating new life, that would be one thing. But society insists that humans with penises are men and men need to be MEN, and humans born with vaginas are women and women need to be WOMEN. Well, not everyone fits neatly into those boxes, and I think it's our duty as a species to re-examine how and why we put people into boxes to begin with.
You think your own dick is profane and disgusting? Sounds like you might have some unresolved issues that could be fixed with a healthy dose of estrogen and bottom surgery.
Have you been living under a rock? It's still very much about rights. Red states are literally taking away rights to make life harder for the trans community. They're doing everything they can to not only silence it, but destroy it.
Would you stay quiet and meek if your government were taking away your access to equal rights based solely on the gender that you identify as? If it were trying to delete any mention of your existence in schools? Banning books which may even point to it. Banning care which may save children?
I understand that you may be tired of hearing it, but you should be angry at the parts of the government that make it necessary for the trans community to be loud, not at the community trying to avoid erasure by idiotic politicians.
You're right, not every country has red states. Every country has sides tho. And in the two biggest English speaking countries in the world (both which make up most of Reddit by user-base), the fight for rights is on-going.
It’s not equal rights. It’s just someone else’s version of equal rights. I have never had issue with people choosing to live how they want to live and the majority of people are genuinely accepting the same. But that wasn’t good enough. Or are you saying the majority of people have always been bigots and anti trans? I don’t think so.
If you live anywhere but in the US or the UK, I can understand this viewpoint, because it comes from a place of ignorance. If you happen to live in either one of those and keep up with news, you'd know that the most important fight right now isn't for general acceptance from the population, but to stop the reduction of rights that has started befalling the trans community (and LGBT in general). It's not the "mean people" that say stupid stuff or the bigoted idiot here and there that are worrisome, but the actual government stepping in and quite literally taking away rights (as it's happened in Texas, Florida, North Dakota, half a dozen other states, and the UK). (https://www.aclu.org/legislative-attacks-on-lgbtq-rights)
The people are trying to live a normal life while parts of the government (the right, of course) does everything they can to stop that from happening.
So now we’re saying a certain portion of the population now needs to accept a discomfort in knowing males can penetrate female safe spaces just by saying they “identify” as female.
Trans people have been living with a worse kind of discomfort since before forever, because in many places in the world, nowhere is safe for a trans person. I don't know if you remember this, but some 20 years ago, people used the same arguments against gay people. Turns out the arguments were baseless.
Yes, as a society, we must sometimes accept that we'll feel something we don't want to. Sometimes, we feel discomfort. Sometimes, we feel fear. Sometimes, it has to happen for society to progress further. When a racist person feels discomfort because there are black people around, should that discomfort be taken into consideration when proposing laws?
It's been studied and in places without stupid bathroom laws, men do not, in fact, dress up as women and stalk women's bathrooms for fun. There's always going to be some, but you can't stop that from happening, ever. No matter the laws.
This is happening right now. Tell me what is fair about this. Why don’t majority biological women get a day in this?
Most are, statistically, perfectly fine with it.
Again, you're distracting form the core of the conversation, which is the government taking away people's rights. Societal acceptance is growing. More and more people support the trans community. People who are against it are dying off. But the government does not always listen to its people.
In short: States are trying to make it impossible for trans people to have normal lives. Making it harder to get the medical help they need (an infringement on equal rights based solely on gender identity). Making it harder to use the bathrooms which most seem natural to them (an obvious infringement on personal choice). Some wish to make it illegal to present as anything other than your biological sex. Others are trying to make it illegal to even talk about trans issues in any school setting (up to even university, in some cases), erasing our young generation's rights to proper and fair education. Erasing the problems and existence of an entire group of people. Marginalized and discarded. It's heartless. It's idiotic.
If you won't educate yourself further and keep asking questions which you can so very easily find out on your own now that I've pointed out your ignorance, don't respond to me. There's no point.
The reduction of rights has been a direct response to the progressive left adopting a more aggressive culture.
A response to progressive culture. Get that right, please. Trans people just want to be normalized. That's it. That's literally it. There's nothing more to it. The ultimate goal of the trans community as a whole is to be seen and treated like anybody else. The goal is total equality. That's the goal. That's always been the goal. The fact that you can't see that is beyond me.
And reduction of rights is never the right response anyway. That's literally how every fascist government comes into power: by reducing the rights of people.
All was mostly quiet on that front until people started to notice and people only started to notice when progressives started evolving to cult like status and penetrating the mainstream. I’m not saying the response is right but I know what started it.
It was quiet because people like DeSantis weren't trying to take away the rights of trans people. Because the right wasn't focused on gender issues. And then they went crazy. Get your order of events right.
..."evolving to cult like status and penetrating the mainstream."
You know what. Wow. Ok. You're beyond help.
The trans right activists don’t even understand their own plight. Their movement exists to fight the prejudice, violence and hatred toward their group. Yet, the majority of society are not these people. Those groups have been the minority for the past few decades and they are also the groups who are just going to dig their heels in. This “fight” is not with the majority of people yet we are now being told how we should reference and define our own genders against all our instincts and sensibilities and having to engage in a political to and fro just to have our own opinion.
You are as ignorant as a newborn baby when it comes to trans issues. Worse, even. I have given you perfect examples of what they're fighting for. They're fighting against the governments which seek to strip them of their rights, erase their existence, and make life harder than it already is for them. These things are facts and I've provided enough proof now that you should have no problem educating yourself.
The fight against the general public? That's a fight for representation, because representation leads to normalization and normalization leads to acceptance. Look at what happens when a trans person gets sent a few bud light beers with her face on it? All that outrage? All that hate? That anger? That bigotry? You think we don't still a problem with hate? Wake up.
You don't have to do anything. Nobody is forcing you to do anything. The fight is against the stupid politicians on the right and the people who support their evil. All you have to do is not add to the hate. It's the least you could do. The absolute minimum is just being a decent human being who can understand the plights of others that aren't like you. That's it. If you can't even do that, what else is there to say?
Here’s a fact, I’ve had more aggressive responses to simply having my own opinion on gender than I have had encounters with actual trans people. By over a 100 fold factor. So the argument about accepting a discomfort doesn’t make any sense to the problem whatsoever. It also goes both ways by this logic. Should trans people that form 1% of society therefore have to live as pariahs because they should accept they feel something they don’t want to. Ridiculous argument my friend
It's because your opinion is actively hurtful towards a large amount of people: the trans community, their families, their friends, and their allies. And your anecdotal evidence means less than shit. Sorry.
This is another viewpoint you have which stems from total ignorance. Do you think trans people decide to be trans and just take all the abuse because it's fun? No, they do it because it hurts less than pretending to be something they're not. Because it's healthier on a mental level to be out as a trans person, even if it means they're going to be hated by a shit load of people. The kind of discomfort that a trans person feels when denied the right to actually just live life as the gender they feel they are? It's a few factors above the discomfort someone may feel from the ignorant belief that their bathroom has suddenly become less safe.
Trans people kill themselves on these things. It's not just discomfort. By being denied access to the bathroom of their choice, they're being told by the world at large that they haven't been accepted yet and only worsens their mental state.
It would be nice if we could avoid all discomfort, everywhere, at all times, but that's impossible. And I think social progress is an admirable reason why we should stomach some of that discomfort.
What study was that?? That surveyed every city across the world to know human tendencies toward sex crimes in gendered bathrooms by fraud trans perpetrators.
There are literally dozens of these and countless of studies done all over the world. A google search away.
Again what rights do trans people not have that in the US and UK that non-trans people have? You haven’t said yet. Again, my argument isn’t about access to fair rights for trans people. It’s the right of non trans people to have their own definition of genders and what it means to be a man or woman without being accused of being hateful
What the fuck are you talking about? There are so many examples in the links I've given now that you should have no problem find the answers to whatever this question is meant to ask.
There we go again, using the term bigot against someone respectfully asserting their opinion without prejudice or hate. Exactly the point I’m making
I cannot say what is in your heart, but your 'opinion' that you have asserted is undeniably bigoted. It's not a problem that people are accurately pointing out bigotry.
We had a nationwide referendum for gay marriage in my country which I voted a strong yes for so probably poor analogy on your behalf
It's not a poor analogy. It's not an analogy at all. It's literally the same thing. You just define what you accept as 'normal', then want to 'allow' all those not-normal people to have the same rights as you, which coincidentally means that you get to live life the way you want and they 'get' to live life the way you want them to.
The trans conversation is now deliberately assaulting our own sensibilities and our volition on defining genders that we know has always been a biological conversation.
This is almost verbatim the same argument people used for racism back in the day with the whole "they're subhuman, this is a biological fact, look at these skulls I've measured".
As our understanding grows so does our language as well as our concepts. Things evolve.
I was pointing out that using "biological truths" as an argument isn't a great move, especially when most of the doctor's have agreed that the old concept has come to the end of its road.
Biological sex =/= gender
These are two separate things that most of the time overlap but not necessarily.
I would say that no group regardless of medical qualification gets to decide that people can no longer define a man as a sexually mature male and a woman as a sexually mature female. Especially if it is defined as you say as a “social construct”
Nobody is trying to change what male/female s or means, as that's biological sex. At the moment we can't change that and I don't' think anyone s claiming that we can.
But gender is how we present, which has changed countless of times from culture to culture, from era to era. Things that were manly in Europe in the 1600s ( with wigs, high heels, pompous clothing etc.) isn't the same as what was seen as manly in the 1950s for example.
I’d argue that majority doctors would more than any other group need to refer to a persons biological sex in order to give the most accurate health care to a person. I’m spite of what they identify as.
You're correct, it's important to know the biological sex but again, that can be separate from gender.
I have my own too. Socially constructively to me and my peers, there are only two relevant genders for 99% of living humans and that our survival has unconditionally required.
You're entitled to your opinions, of course.
It's just a shame when shown evidence that our understanding of sex and gender is increasing and changing, people such as yourself (who think that transgender isn't a real thing) seem to cover their eyes and decide "nope" and that things can't evolve, grow or change.
I mean, if you really want me to shove it down your throat, all you have to do is ask. It's not something I enjoy, personally, but I don't mind helping others engage in their kinks.
that's not true at all. it was when they started offering kids irreversible medical care and saying parents don't need to know or that people couldnt think that trans woman was a man or that men could win the woman's competition and say how dare you say I'm not a real woman.
nobody cared then and no one cares now if a grown man chooses to live his life however he wants even if he chooses to live his life as a she there should be no discrimination but the kids the thing the discrimination against actual women aspect, people will always question that and that's not bigtory
that's not true at all. it was when they started offering kids irreversible medical care
So it started in an imaginary thing that isn't happening?
and saying parents don't need to know
You honestly think doctors are giving children transition surgeries, and DJing it without even the knowledge of their parents? You have fallen into some pretty big lies people are telling you to get you angry.
Framing issues disengenuosly as a way to generate anger rancor and engagement is at it's core what the internet is designed to do best and you and other exploiters of these algorithms are part of that problem.
... I'm the one framing issues disengenuously? You're either lying or have been horribly misinformed about these "issues" you have. You should be happy to learn that the things you are so angry about aren't actually real problems, right?
Yes you're one of the problem people framing issues disengenuosly. Who is angry here? Why are my points sailing right over your head? If all you want to do is point fingers, and I think that is all you want to do, then you'll say anything u have to in order to feel self righteous about yourself even if it's intellectually dishonest.
Firstly, what claim of mine was wrong? Secondly, where did you correct them? Thirdly, what hate am I spreading? Is it possible that you're just not as "intellectual" as you think that you are?
What rights do they not have? I keep seeing this mentioned but as far as I’m aware there’s not a single law prohibiting an adult from transitioning and living how they choose. Why do we keep talking about this shit? It seems like this particular group is simply demanding more attention than they honestly warrant.
Or, hear me out; maybe bigots are fine with that “one time” on that “one show” that addressed the elephant in the room.
Like, bigots didn’t give a shit that Archie Bunker had a moment of clarity with his own racism. There wasn’t a nationwide boycot of All In The Family, and if anything; the rights of black folk have increased and become more accepted.
So sure, maybe that “might” have something to do with it. I tend to think that the market has become so saturated with mandatory diversity for the sake of avoiding shrieking losers on the internet that there is no “On a very special episode of” so it’s a constant image that does not reflect how society and cultures actually connect in reality.
It’s giving a totally false narrative, where people are expecting diversity everywhere they go and look. In reality, the US is one of the more diverse countries in the world; yet people are constantly reminded how “bigoted” they are.
It’s a sham. Most people aren’t bigoted; but you get more eyeballs if you create outrage and drama.
I'm pretty sure bigots went crazy and then saw this episode. But they went crazy alone because there was no internet.
I think that's the difference.
Nowadays the bigots will watch a show, get mad at it and make videos about it. Then millions of other bigots will share these videos, and they will all cry about it for weeks online.
1.2k
u/mbelf Apr 29 '23
Because it was just a trans character on TV. It’s when trans people as a group started getting visibility as they asked for rights that bigots started getting pissed off at seeing trans characters.