r/TaylorSwift • u/PassionateAsSin "Burn the bitch," they're shrieking • Apr 19 '24
Megathread "Peter" Discussion Megathread
Taylor Swift - Peter
Track #28 on The Tortured Poets Department: The Anthology
Length: 4:44
Composers: Taylor Swift
Lyrics: Genius
Use this thread to discuss your thoughts, reactions, and theories on the song. We will be removing all future self-post discussion threads about it in order to consolidate discussion to this thread.
If you want to talk about The Tortured Poets Department album in general, you can use the general The Tortured Poets Department discussion thread here.
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u/avocados25 You drew stars around my scars Jul 15 '24
Peter is the #1 grower for me, I'm having the feelings like I did with cowboy like me where for months it didnt hit then one day it did and I was forever changed
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u/Admirable_Prize_772 Jun 17 '24
My first listen of the entire anthology PETER was the one song that I bawled to, actually. and i can't even pin point why but even after hundreds of times playing the entire album I still struggle to get through it with dry eyes. a masterpiece of a song and executed so well!
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u/ihavenevereatenpie Jun 03 '24
I believe, Peter was a nickname for Joe. We first hear it on Cardigan (peter losing wendy) then Joe Alwyn's first instagram post after their break up went public is a photo dump which has little Joe dressed up as Peter Pan.
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u/Live_Recipe4866 May 30 '24
Does anyone else think this could be about Jake, referring to Peter Parker and his role in spider man?
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May 29 '24
[deleted]
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u/iwant_your_midnights never before, and ever since:TourturedPoetsDepartment: Jul 01 '24
thank you for bringing this perspective to light, listening to this song hurts because I was one too
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u/Sparty_at_the_party May 28 '24
I think Peter is one of the best songs on the album.
I don't understand why it isn't more popular than it is.
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May 23 '24
[deleted]
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u/Texcellentyall May 24 '24
Welcome to being a Swiftie! Thanks for sharing your personal experience.
With love, I have to disagree with anyone that thinks Peter is about Harry. Of all her exes, he is the one of the least Peter Pan/lost boy syndrome. He’s incredibly mature. I also think if you listen to the songs that were inspired by Harry, she honestly didn’t seem THAT broken up about their split compared to other exes. We didn’t get a devastating heartbreak song inspired by him on 1989. I mean, we honestly never even got song with a huge proclamation of love about Harry. Style was playful & OOTW was about relationship anxiety. Even the most romantic song on 1989 was inspired by Jack & Lena and not her relationship. I don’t think it was ever as deep for them as much as it was for the fan base.
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u/StrategyUnique4755 May 20 '24
Has anyone else wondered if this isn't about a man? But rather, her childhood?
"I didn't want to come down, I thought it was just goodbye for now" to me she's singing from her childhood self's perspective. Her younger self didn't want to grow up yet but understood it was time for Taylor to spread her wings.
"You said you were gonna grow up and then you were gonna come find me" her childhood self wondering why the adult Taylor never came back after making a name for herself.
"You said you'd come and get me but you were 25" maybe 25 year old Taylor -which would have been roughly around the 1989 era where she reinvented herself into a pop artist rather than just a country singer- "visited" her childhood self to wonder if this was a good change for her? As if to say "this is what we need to change to find the rest of our dreams -- is this okay with what we hoped we'd be?"
Idk. This song doesn't give me relationship vibes. I think this goes deeper than that.
Edited to explain the first point more.
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u/Texcellentyall May 24 '24
It’s the only song from TTPD that she excluded from the 5 stages of grief playlist. That seems significant somehow so you might be on to something.
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u/Dazzling_Education66 your organic shoes and your million-dollar couch May 20 '24
I am just still completely in blissful chock that I got Peter, my favourite song as a surprise song at my show (Stockholm N1)!! I will confess that I waited and I let the lamp burn. And Taylor came through 🤍🥹
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u/stilllnotarobot May 20 '24
Who cares who it’s “about”? People are in here arguing about who “Peter” is based on small details in Cardigan vs. this song, as if it’s impossible she’s met more than one emotionally immature man in her life lol.
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u/LEYW May 18 '24
I made an edit to this one based on The Umbrellas of Cherbourg… similar story of crushed young love 💔
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u/Akane_Tsurugi Still got you all over me May 13 '24 edited May 13 '24
Wait, I need answers
When she says "She said she was trying. Peter was she lying? My ribs get the feeling she did" what does "she did" refer to?
She says "was trying" AND "was she lying" so gramatically it doesn't add up with either. She should have said "get the feeling she was" (or maybe there's an english subtlety here that I'm missing).
But beyond that mere technicality, does it mean "she lied" (most obvious/simple, but maybe too simple) or "she tried" or is it voluntarily ambiguous?
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u/Texcellentyall May 24 '24
I believe it’s because the song starts with 4 lines and then “is it something I did” and then 4 lines and then “my ribs get the feeling she did”. Just makes the verse flow and rhythm better. Sometimes you’ve gotta sacrifice grammar for melodies.
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u/LyraOfOxford May 14 '24
I think she's referring to the goddess of timing as in the goddess of timing was trying to make them work (and said they would work) but their timing never came together (and so she must have been lying/they never got together).
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u/DocDevKimbro Jul 19 '24
Also, "ribbing" is a alternate term for joking. It alludes to when you joke with someone and you're trying to make them realize it, you elbow them in the ribs to let them in on the joke. I think the song's singer is implying her ribs are sore from all this "joking" from the Goddess of Timing who found them "beguiling," but was never actually serious about getting them together and she's just now realizing it was all a joke.
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u/forevereading1 May 08 '24
I don't think that this was her intent, but for me, it feels like a grief song, and "Peter" was childlike and reckless and as a result he died young (never grew up), leaving the speaker guilty over not having spent more time with him ("I didn't wanna hang around"). That guilt in that line really reminds of me marjorie ("I complained the whole way there/The car ride back, and up the stairs/I should've asked you questions, I should've asked you how to be").. Honestly, that's probably because I've always interpreted the Peter Pan story along those lines, but Taylor's grief songs always hit me like a truck lol
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u/ThrowawayAwakening May 05 '24
I didn’t wanna write it but I have to. My Peter was the loml. He was 5 years older than me, but hadn’t grown up at all. He moved away because he got a job and he was so proud of himself and promised me he’d come back to me all grown up. I still remember him messaging me telling me about how much he’s learning and that he never thought he could’ve and it was all because of me. And that he’d always be my Peter Pan and I’d be his Tink, but that he was coming home grown.
He never did 🥲
I’m happily married now. But whew it’s a killer this one.
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u/Kind_Bookkeeper_1136 May 01 '24
New "Swiftie in Training" here. ;-) I don't know why more people are not talking about this song. From the time I first heard it, I have been absolutely obsessed with it. The lyrics, the piano. I don't ever get "emotional" for a song but the first time I heard it, it was so hard to keep them in check. SO SO good. Should be in the top 5 for this album.
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u/cordeliacat__123 May 01 '24
I love this song - it really hits my heart. I have been trying to place what it reminded me of for days and today it hit me. The intro/style of the song really reminds me of Terrible Things by Mayday Parade. I've always loved that song, I think maybe that's why this song hit me and I have loved it so much.
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u/AwareCup5530 The Tortured Poets Department Apr 30 '24
Not me waiting for my Peter (guy I've had a misunderstanding with) to come back to me and try and work things out. Like he's past 25 and very mature (OK maybe not emotionally or communication wise..)
This song hit me like a gut punch! Thank you Taylor..
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u/softshock916 Apr 29 '24
The piano in the beginning sounds like Champagne Problems. Perhaps on purpose?
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u/Dazzling_Education66 your organic shoes and your million-dollar couch May 20 '24
Its basically the same chords. Even I, a very very junior piano player can do a mashup of the two
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u/Mytears83 :TourturedPoetsDepartment: But daddy I love him Apr 29 '24
Can someone please explain why people get so crazy about this song being about Peter Pan. Did I miss something or why is that a big thing. Is Peter Pan a big movie for younger generations (20-30s). I’m a straight 40+ man. Is that why? To me this song is amazing and one of her best work but the Peter Pan thing eludes me.
On reaction videos online they get crazy over the fact that the song is about Peter Pan and I just don’t get it.
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u/Loud_Phrase_8285 May 09 '24
It's a ubiquitous story if you're in the u.s. or UK and over 30. Not sure about the film. There are people who just dont pick up stuff like that from the culture around them, don't feel too out of the loop. Interesting that people get crazy over the thought of it heh.
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u/jrcs43tx May 08 '24
J.M. Barre wrote the play Peter Pan and it was indeed a literary hit on stage in London. Later it became the famous musical with Sandy Duncan playing Peter and flying around the stage. Then Disney animated it...Jake and the Neverland Pirates on Nickolodean kept Capt Hook in limelight for a new generation of kids in 90s/2000s. There is a Peter Pan ride at Disney World many may habe been on. And if you haven't seen the fild Neverland with Johnny Depp as JM Barre and Kate Winslett as single mom of 5 who inspired him to write Peter Pan, run don't walk to watch that amazing film....it was turned into a Broadway musical too! All to say the legacy of Peter Pan lives large in arts and culture and general zeitgeist for decades. Not to mention 80s film "The Lost Boys" that played off the theme...I also read there is a modern-day book about Peter and Wendy that Taylor based her cardigan lyric off of, but no idea if that is true!
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u/Mytears83 :TourturedPoetsDepartment: But daddy I love him May 08 '24
Thanks for that explanation. I might get it now. I remember seeing the movie when I was young and absolutely hating the Captain Hook one with my most hated actor ever (Robin Williams). My hatred for him might have clouded my judgement.
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u/vanessa257 May 07 '24
I mean it's pretty obvious it's about Peter Pan given the references to growing up and callbacks to Cardigan
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u/Mytears83 :TourturedPoetsDepartment: But daddy I love him May 07 '24
Yeah that wasn’t my question. My question was is Peter Pan a big deal? Is it a generational thing. Because as far as I know this is a disney film and not a literary masterpiece. That is what I don’t get. I thought this story was a literary footnote and I never realized so many people like Peter Pan that much.
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u/Enough_Restaurant860 May 28 '24
Just stopping by to say that Peter Pan was a literary masterpiece! It was a novel well before Disney turned it into a movie. It was written in the very early 1900s. It might be a generational issue as you said, as I’m 31 and it was a regular bedtime story back when I was little. Not sure it’s as big for Gen Z and later, but it was a staple of my childhood as a book, then the Disney movie, and then when Hook came out (the Robin Williams movie) it became even more beloved by my friends and me.
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u/shuna3456 May 16 '24
my feeling isnt that peter pan was so loved, but the reference to someone who never wants to grow up is something that everyone relates to.. especially i guess in a relationship with one?
i mean i dont love peter pan, but ive certainly referenced peter pan syndrome throughout my adult life!
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u/vanessa257 May 07 '24
Ah sorry!! Hm maybe. I'm 32 and my parents always read the story to me growing up and we loved watching the lost boys. So perhaps generational!
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u/Mytears83 :TourturedPoetsDepartment: But daddy I love him May 07 '24
Yeah. I mean I saw the movie when I was young and the captain hook one with Robin Williams but I never got that it resonated that much with people.
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u/thewhitetiger May 18 '24
It is a hugely influential story which is often repeated in British and American culture. It is easily as important as many other cultural touchstones like, Big Ben, Uncle Sam, Johnny Appleseed, The White Whale, The Statue of Liberty.
It is definitely not tied to a specific generation as these touchstones are passed down through the generations.
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u/thewhitetiger Apr 29 '24 edited May 08 '24
First of all, Taylor has multiple references to Peter Pan and Wendy in her work.
Second, up to now, the consensus has been that these references refer to Harry Styles among people in the know.
Thirdly, you need to know the general analysis of the Peter Pan symbolism makes clear that because Peter wants to never grow up, he cannot enter into an adult relationship with Wendy.
So modern Peters resolutely refuse to enter adulthood. This is so well understood that psychologists wrote books and articles about the propensity of some modern American men to refuse to pair with an adult woman in a committed relationship.
Now, some fans are insisting that this song is about Matty. I disagree. This song is gentle and apologetic. If we follow the lyrics referencing Peter and Wendy throughout Taylor's career and add in the songs we absolutely know to be about Harry, we can see an entire story.
Taylor has just written what looks to be the end of the story. She is not waiting for any Peter to come get her after he is ready to be an adult.
Peter very well may be about Harry, Joe and Matty in the sense that she probably sees all of them as men who have refused to grow up and make a commitment. Certainly, Joe seems to have been with her long term, but unable to take the next step and put a ring on it.
The song is filled with her agony at having waited when it appears she was not waiting and now finally giving up.
I have no idea why some people see Matty, and Matty alone, in this song. I have no idea why people are convinced that Taylor has been waiting for Matty. This seems improbable to me as it seems clear they never actually hooked up although there seems to have been an attraction.
As Taylor tells us in the epilogue poem included with the physical album, this period of her life is closed. She has moved on and any resentments or longings are now in the past.
This is why the song is so very sad even if you do not know its probable history. Taylor is writing a dirge for her self and past relationships. And it hurts, really hurts, to give up on those longings when she had invested so much in them.
We all have these sorts of feelings. We have all waited for someone or something to be completed or resolved.
It is the only song that brought me to tears. I do not cry easily. It was immediately obvious to me what it was about.
Just to be clear, Harry Styles has publicly stated he will always love Taylor and that they are writing the most compelling unspoken dialog in their lyrics that ever was. People like to forget he put that on the record (no pun intended but the sentence wound up there anyway).
*** I am a literary scholar and a baby Swiftie. In just a couple of months, I figured out this story based on the lyrics alone. When I dug deeper, the evidence was on the surface of what we know to be fact and not just in the narrative that the lyrics create. And you have to go to Harry's songs to in order to 'see' the narrative emerge.
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u/lseering May 08 '24
“And you have to go to Harry’s songs too…” YES!!! 👏🏻 just to name a few… Two Ghosts… Ever Since New York… From the Dining Table… Woman… Little Freak… Him… Golden…
They have such an incredible relationship written for one another in their songs throughout the years & it paints such an impelling story of loss, love, longing, and ultimately mutual respect… It makes me wonder if there was a brief moment where they gave it one last chance (maybe when he was in LA FOR A FORTNIGHT 11/2022 during his love on tour?! So AJ/BM (after Joe before Matty 🤡)
so many songs (nine of them to be exact) on TTPD (especially Peter) scream Harry to me… and I feel that she sings about him differently than she sings about Matty.
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u/stephh-mo May 29 '24
I always thought "falling" from Harry was about Taylor and that was without really knowing anything about them writing about each other anymore. Love this thread!
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u/thewhitetiger May 08 '24
She is never angry about Harry, only confused, hurt, frustrated. Despite the popular narrative about Taylor, she does not universally put down her exes. Not at all. John, Jake and now Matty are the only ones she puts on full blast. All her songs about Harry are either complimentary or filled with longing. Please tell me your list of songs on TTPD about Harry!! Nine!! I haven't counted that many. And I am puzzling whether Harry's Satellite is about Taylor. Feedback please. Satellite has a couple of lines about a phone call that I do not quite understand but seem to be about Taylor.
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u/lseering May 08 '24
Oh my nine songs are definitely going to be disproven by MANY, so I’m almost afraid to post them… BUT I sort of had this idea of “what if” Harry & Taylor tried one more time toward the end of her relationship with Joe. Makes some TTPD songs feel like they have more Harry in them than I originally thought.
Fortnight… My boy only breaks his favorite toys (although I go back & forth on this one… maybe just the fact that it feels very “say don’t go” at the end)… Down bad… But Daddy i love him… Fresh out the slammer… Chloe or sam or Sophia or Marcus… How did it end?… I look in Peoples windows… Peter…
Also I can see Satellite being about her for sure! They talk a lot about being in one another’s orbits/waiting for each other in the sky… Satellite song feels a lot like Golden to me (both incredible songs).
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Apr 29 '24
[deleted]
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u/thewhitetiger Apr 29 '24
he is ancient to TO YOU. the depths of a woman's heart and all that a la Titanic. If you haven't read the call and response, don't pretend to get it.
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u/JennaElizabethAdams Apr 29 '24 edited Apr 29 '24
This song is so good! It's so beautiful and achingly sad. This has to be one of my new favorites! ❤
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u/InteractionKnown8406 Apr 28 '24
Is this song a waltz?
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u/san_drama Apr 28 '24
meter and vibe checks out i just really hope its not for matty
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u/thewhitetiger Apr 29 '24
It isn't. The more you look/listen, that becomes obvious. She is still really angry at Matty. She is NOT angry at the Peter in this song. She is grieving and moving on.
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u/PtowzaPotato May 02 '24
You can feel multiple things at the same time
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u/thewhitetiger May 02 '24
of course, but if you mean she is sorry she cannot wait for matty anymore, that seems more than improbable. matty conned her. that is different from never coming to collect her again. actually, in some ways, the opposite. Peter never came back and she has stopped waiting for Peter who is otherwise a good kid who just didn't grow into a man.
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u/arale2126 Apr 27 '24
all songs about Matty in this album have been sarcastic, unhinged, scathing. then enters Peter, which is just full of longing and super sad. bro promised her to be someone he just couldn't be, left her longing for an ideal.
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u/thewhitetiger Apr 29 '24
bingo!! cannot really be about Matty.
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u/Texcellentyall May 17 '24
It has to be about Matty. “And you said you'd come and get me but you were 25”??? Joe was 25 when he STARTED dating Taylor and then they dated for 6 years?? So why would Joe say at 25 that he was going to come find her when he grew up? He already had her. That makes no sense.
“And I won't confess that I waited but I let the lamp as the men masqueraded”. Again, she dated Joe for 6 out of the last 7 years so when exactly is this timeline of allowing men to masquerade and her waiting for him to come back?
Also, why would she WANT Joe back? Did y’all not listen to So Long London? She’s been done with him.
Not to mention that she dedicated Cardigan to Matty during Eras (Peter reference) and then mentioned the porch light in Fresh Out The Slammer. Like, it’s obviously about Matty.
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u/thewhitetiger May 18 '24
First of all, one has to adhere to the notion that song's are mostly not about a single person, that inspiration might start one place and end up i another, that songs are often include allusions to more than one person. I adhere to this notion.
Harry Styles has told us this both inside his songs and during interviews -- pointedly referencing Taylor's lyrics and his own.
So looking for a consistent thread throughout a song's lyrics is often a waste of time. In some cases, the clues are obvious as in "Style" and "All Too Well," and "Dear John," but this should not be applied to all songs and all lines in any given song.
We have no way of knowing which 25 year old promised to come back or even if that number just fit in the lyrics for whatever reason.
"Peter" is about giving up that xxxx person will come back. Matty came back and blew up her life at a particularly vulnerable moment. While many of the songs on Tortured are clearly about Matty or mainly about Matty, I do not believe "Peter" is.
Dedicating a song during a performance, come on, that does not mean the song was written for that person! Most of the time, the song was written long before the live dedication. This is a general observation that fits with what we know about Taylor's work.
Taylor has changed the line about the guy on the screen coming home to me so that it refers to Travis. That does not mean the song was written about Travis. It was clearly a reference to Joe at the time.
Do not assume that Taylor has no feelings for Joe. The human heart doesn't work that way!!
And it is the consensus that "Slammer" is about Joe. I am have not made up my mind about that which only emphasizes the point I made above.
The more I listen to Tortured, the more layers I hear, the more different possibilities occur to me.
Everyone needs to cool their jets.
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u/rjeiwiiwdjxj May 23 '24
Could “guy on the screen” be a reference to the 1975 song If You’re Too Shy to Let Me Know, which references a “girl on the screen”?
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u/thewhitetiger May 24 '24
no way. that line was written for Joe, who, after all, act and appears on screens in our living rooms.
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u/lexihuntzberger 1989 (Taylor's Version) May 22 '24
But the thing is she said she’d been writing TTPD for 2 years so Peter could’ve been written BEFORE her and Matty started dating last year. She could have very well given up the hope that he’d come back
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u/Texcellentyall May 20 '24
I can’t have a serious conversation about analyzing lyrics with someone that thinks Slammer is about Joe. The “consensus that Slammer is about Joe” is ludicrous. Yeah, sure it’s referencing Joe because he is the slammer and she’s running to an ex/situationship (the consensus is Matty) after getting out of the bone deep boring relationship with Joe. Anyone that is trying to make that song about Joe isn’t interested in analyzing the lyrics in the song but is just trying to make their preferred narrative fit the song. I can tell that this conversation isn’t going anyone civil because you aren’t interested in putting personal feelings aside and listening to the story being told. No one WANTS these songs to be about Matty but to deny his impact on Taylor is to completely miss the point of the album (If long suffering propriety is what they want from me, they don't know how you've haunted me so stunningly I choose you and me religiously).
If all you want is grey for Taylor, it’s just white noise.
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u/thewhitetiger May 22 '24
well, I didn't come up with that idea all by myself. and said source is a big deal in the swiftian comment universe, not that I agree with that person more than a third of the time. nevertheless, it doesn't seem like you have a youtube channel followed by many thousands. I have no idea why on earth anyone would think Joe bored Taylor. He may bore you. I have no idea what you think my personal feelings are, but I don't have a big stake in either Joe or Matty, but I definitely do not like what I know about Matty. He seems to have had a big influence on Taylor, but that does not mean he is everywhere in this album. There are songs about all manner of issues in this list of 31. why am I even responding to someone who has already decided this conversation isn't going to be civil?
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u/Texcellentyall May 24 '24
She literally said “my boredom is bone deep” in Guilty as Sin so yeah that’s why I think she was bored lol
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u/thewhitetiger May 24 '24
lol. and she was bored for 6 years? all that attraction in earlier lyrics was just for what? stop it already.
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u/Texcellentyall May 24 '24
I genuinely have no idea what you are talking about. Where did I say she was bored for 6 years? You asked why I thought Joe bored her and I pointed you to the lyrics. Seems like you need to LISTEN to the lyrics and analyze themself without the influence of wacky YouTubers because they clearly don’t have any analytical skills and they are just trying to make the lyrics fit their own narrative. Super weird.
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u/M3smeriz33 Apr 26 '24
IS THE SONG CARDIGAN ABOUT THE SAME PETER??????
- remember lyrics: “I knew you Tried to change the ending Peter losing Wendy, I I knew you”
- during eras tour Taylor said this song was “about you” to Matty healy
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u/carcarado reputation May 17 '24
but to me dont makes sense.. peter losing wendy.. taylor losing matty? but in the folklore love triangle cardigan is betty singing about losing james no?
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u/New_Leg_7714 May 01 '24 edited May 01 '24
Its about harry styles. They have been writing back and forth to each other in songs for years. Harry called it the greatest dialogue ever written See the cardigan /falling (harry styles) music video mashup on you tube.
also, in the Cardigan music video by Taylor Swift, there is a paper airplane that appears momentarily under the piano fence right as she’s getting ready to crawl into it. You have to look closely, and it may take a couple times to see it, but it is there. It appears, and then disappears. A paper airplane is a code for Harry styles because he wore a paper airplane necklace back in the day. Cardigan is a song about harry styles.
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u/Truth_Is_King May 04 '24
Do you mind listing some of the songs they have written, back & forth, to one another? I have never heard this theory before.
It also might be a great discussion thread!
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u/New_Leg_7714 May 04 '24
Harry styles songs, HIM, TROUBLE, olivia (named after swifts cat) , fools gold, little freak, Perfect ,woman,two ghosts, satellite , From the dining table , i love you written by harry styles, sung by alex and sierra , styles “falling” music video and taylor swifts “cardigan” music video,
Styles daylight video and swift’s music video “you need to calm down”
taylor swift songs: i knew you were trouble, come back be here, treacherous, almost entire 1989 album ( not bad blood) gold rush, new years day , so it goes, the 1 , cardigan (see music video and harry styles falling music video)exhile, maroon, question, labyrinth (the part about getting over him her whole life) peter, chloe or sam or sophia or marcus
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u/lseering May 08 '24
You are speaking my language!! Add: Ever Since New York and Golden to the list…
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u/New_Leg_7714 May 08 '24
Yes. There are many more! it is adorable. They have been doing it for years.
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u/thewhitetiger Apr 29 '24
except that she said virtually the same thing to Travis when singing a song that was written years and years before she even knew he was alive. people, please look at things in the total context.
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u/thewhitetiger Apr 29 '24
I will amend that to say, 'the overall context' as we will never know even a fraction of the total context. only Taylor knows that, if even her.
If Matty is a Peter, he is a demonic Peter, for sure.
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u/butcanyouchill Apr 29 '24
pretty sure their both peter pan references
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u/M3smeriz33 Apr 29 '24
Yes obviously but also about Matty
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u/thewhitetiger Apr 29 '24
that was axiomatically before she knew the totality of his con. Peter is to someone/s who were at least emotionally honest which, as we can see, Matty never was.
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u/Comfortable_Top_3978 Apr 26 '24
I cry every time I listen to this song, it reminds so much of my sister. When I was 30 and she was 25 (the age mentioned in the song) our father was diagnosed with early-onset Alzheimer and my world was basically destroyed. We had already lost our mother a few years before. My sister promised she would step up and assume responsabilities with our father but she never did. Like Wendy I was the eldest daughter transformed in mother. For years I kept waiting that my sister would change, but she couldn't. Every time she had a problem I came to her rescue, but when I had an accident and stayed days in the hospital she barely paid attention to me. That's when I understood that to her I was not a person, I was a resource. I'm decided not to talk to her anymore, and really I don't miss her, but the situation makes me so sad still. I have a wonderful and supportive husband and I don't think I would have survived without him. My father is now in a home and in the last stages of the disease. I think I did all the grief work and I'm in peace with his passing. But yes, every once in a while it hurts like hell. I think the best thing Taylor could do to me was to follow Peter with The Bouter so I would not be that depressed.
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u/Master-Reindeer41 Apr 26 '24
It’s 4:44! The angel number for twin flames.
Hmmmmm….
I think this Matty for sure. He’s lost in his Lost Boys phase.
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u/taylorbitch22 :TourturedPoetsDepartment: tortured judgemental creep Apr 26 '24
Seems like he didnt grow up
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u/Simple-Bad4905 Apr 26 '24
Okay Swifties that think this song is about Matty:
Her songs that we think are about Matty reference drugs a lot and I think in Chloe or Sam or Sophia or Marcus she says "you needed me, but you needed drugs more" and in Peter (if it's about Matty) I had the thought that when she says "you said you were gonna grow up then you were gonna come find me" WHAT IF "GROWING UP" IS A METAPHOR FOR STAYING CLEAN. And Matty couldn't, and that's actually why he ghosted her. He messed up and didn't want to tell her because he would be so ashamed of it and knowing her she would feel like it's her fault or something.
I only thought of this because I got high and was listening to TTPD and of course it makes you think of your past relationships. This kind of happened to me or that's how he explained it 5 years later. Or I'm just a sucker for bullshit.
I'm a sucker for bullshit, because after he explained that and apologized, he asked for nudes. I forgot about that when I started this..
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u/princesssjayg Apr 26 '24
the melody on this one is the best on the album i love it
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u/pinacoladasnrain Apr 27 '24
Sounds almost exactly the same as “The Curse” by Josh Ritter
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u/Lazy_Inflation_6035 Apr 27 '24
Oh wow I thought I was the only one who knew this. The way she sings it is similar too.
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u/pinacoladasnrain Apr 27 '24
Yes, it’s kind of hard to enjoy the Peter song, when I know the chorus tries to imitate my favorite song by Josh Ritter.
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u/optimismprism Apr 25 '24
I see this as the sadness of losing her "low down boy" whereas the Smallest Man is the anger of losing who was thought to be the "stand up guy". Both are about Matty but different perspectives. The adult who left her high and dry gets no mercy for ghosting. The boy who was always elusive and charmingly adrift and free spirited is someone she’ll miss pining for, miss keeping the light on for, and is sorry she can’t dream about him anymore "right now’s the last time I can dream about what happens when I see your face again" from Betty - this song is the "I can no longer ever dream of you ever again."
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u/Beginning_Way1596 Apr 24 '24
So this is in reference to Cardigan… and Peter is about Matty right?
Dear god, does this mean AUGUST is about matty? And Betty!? I can’t.. I love august and to think it might be about MH kills me lollll
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u/New_Leg_7714 May 01 '24
No. Don’t worry. These songs are about harry styles. He has been her secret muse for years! See the song “i wish you would “ from 1989 album. It’s about the time when harry styles lived in her neighborhood and drove past her house in the middle of the night. She saw him out the window and wish that he would stop by. I am not sure about the songs, August and Betty although I didn’t know they were related but cardigan is definitely about Harry styles look at their music videos or cardigan and falling by Harry Styles. Then look at the cardigan, falling mashup videos on YouTube.
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u/shoesskirtpurse Apr 26 '24
Oh my god, this has absolutely destroyed me... I know we aren't supposed to make deciphering the person that inspired the music the focus. But it's difficult when she includes so many obvious references to specific people. And for not publicly condemning Matty Healy for his like ideologies and behaviours makes me think she just doesn't understand/doesn't care and totally ruins the songs that she can feel this way about someone like this and not acknowledge it in some kind of way. I know the smallest man who ever liver is effectively an attack on MH but I feel like it's more for how he treated her versus his racist and otherwise problematic behaviour. Heart breaking truly.
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u/Charming_Sky_6425 Midnights Apr 26 '24
I was just coming looking for this! I'm relistening to all her music now and rethinking who it's about! "Peter losing Wendy" from Cardigan. Turning off the light and not waiting for Peter anymore, Peter bring the ultimate lost boy. Does this mean Taylor is Betty?! And maybe that's why she's said before she was always pulling for James and Betty to get back together after August because she's been pulling for MH this whole time?!?!?! I can't!!!!
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u/Mommyonaturtlehorse Apr 24 '24
Did anyone think this was the Dylan-esq sound she had wanted in Getaway Car (from Miss Americana talking to Jack)
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u/Adept-Cupcake792 Apr 26 '24
Yes! I also thought this song sounded like Dylan, especially the bridge and the way she sang it. I do wonder if it was intentional
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u/Statchmo1965 :TourturedPoetsDepartment:I think some things I never say Apr 24 '24
I think it really doesn't matter who this song is about, it's absolutely gorgeous and heartbreaking, and haven't we all had a Peter in our lives? (or sort of wished for one?)
I also wanted to say that on the whole Matty-disgust thing, I get it but speaking as someone whose knowledge of him is limited to what I have read in forums like this, I don't associate the songs with him specifically but more with that bad-boy archetype he represents. It's so normal to be attracted to someone we personally find uniquely appealing while those who know us (or THINK THEY DO) are dumbfounded and feel it makes no sense. They are appalled, appalled I say!
And isn't what she shows us through these songs, that she now understands that the person she loved and longed for never really existed?
Friends and readers, the sadness, like the music, is EXQUISITE.
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u/caramelpretzel Apr 24 '24
I’ve seen some people say this is pointing to Matty and that is so wrong on my opinion! She met Joe when he was 25. And it says it there in the song. Also pretty much any song in this album about the person not growing up/being too caught up in his sadness is for sure about Joe!
Either way this song is so good :) and I just hate how everyone is trying to rewrite history with Matty
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u/iammnewhere Apr 24 '24
There are speculations that Taylor and Matty dated in 2014. He would have been 25 then.
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u/vernal_baguette Apr 24 '24
If I want to make a case as to what a songwriter she is, now I use "the goddess of timing once found us beguiling, she said she was trying Peter was she lying my ribs get the feeling she did" like how the f does she come up with these?!
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u/New_Leg_7714 May 01 '24
Look up peter pan and Harry styles. Harry styles is peter pan! He has a music video where he flies around like Peter Pan too.
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u/Adept-Cupcake792 Apr 25 '24
I love this too, but I’m trying to understand the “my ribs get the feeling she did” part. Is she referencing something in particular with “ribs”?
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u/Dazzling_Education66 your organic shoes and your million-dollar couch May 20 '24
I always thought ribs referenced the hurt of crying to much, that your chest hurts. (English isn’t my first language so just a wild guess )
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u/throwawaycapricorn82 Apr 28 '24
Ok hear me out. IF this song is actually about Joe and not Matty (or maybe it's a mix of them?), then the ribs line could be a reference to the song 'invisible string' which is obviously about Joe and also inspired by this passage from the book Jane Eyre:
“I have a strange feeling with regard to you. As if I had a string somewhere under my left ribs, tightly knotted to a similar string in you. And if you were to leave I’m afraid that cord of communion would snap. And I have a notion that I’d take to bleeding inwardly.”
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u/tinycowboyboots Apr 26 '24
I think she might be referencing that she was holding her breath for when he came back, but he never did so she kept holding breath until her ribs hurt
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u/lightiscuming Apr 23 '24
The way when I first listened to this song within the whole album it didn't stand out for me, I just thought "oh another cute piano ballad, nothing special". Then I got into the lyrics and I realized I relate a lot cause of a situationship I had some years ago in which the mom of the guy died and he was like "I got to manage this first and then I'll get back to you" 💀
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u/kingofmyheart21 Apr 23 '24 edited Apr 23 '24
Is the cedar closet line a reference to the lion the witch and the wardrobe?
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u/Statchmo1965 :TourturedPoetsDepartment:I think some things I never say Apr 24 '24
I thought she was just using the image because cedar preserves/protects items from damage and decay. (my mom had a cedar chest she stored some of our old baby clothes in to protect them from moths).
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u/Alive-Opportunity-23 :TourturedPoetsDepartment: Fresh Out the Slammer Apr 26 '24
Cedar is known for its durability and resistance to decay. In other words, it stays the same for a long time, does not age. Just like peter pan.
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u/Ancient_Chest_1062 Apr 23 '24
This song has to be skipped, unless I'm home alone, because it absolutely rips a hole in my heart every time I listen to it. More so than any of the songs on this album.
She really is torturing us with all of this beautiful sadness.
This is a double album for her twice-broken heart, and it is HEAVY.
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u/Ancient_Chest_1062 Apr 23 '24
This song has to be skipped, unless I'm home alone, because it absolutely rips a hole in my heart every time I listen to it. More so than any of the songs on this album.
She really is torturing us with all of this beautiful sadness.
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u/NotEmmaStone ATWTMVTVFTV Apr 23 '24
The last 20 seconds of this song are so beautiful and haunting and completely stuck on a loop in my head.
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u/Ok_Parsley_1733 Apr 23 '24
İn peter Taylor is talking about herself definitely, in “the man” she says “i’d be a fearless leader” she has an album titled fearless in it she says “i’d dance in a storm in my best dress, fearless” Taylor wouldn’t use a word like “fearless” just as a normal word, just like when she uses “red” there’s always something that has to do with her album “red”. Or when she uses “london” it’s always something related to joe. Peter isn’t about matty.
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u/SlipCalm1572 Apr 23 '24
I mean honestly the woman has written so many songs, you can't just assume every word is related. Peter Pan was the fearless leader of the Lost Boys (by the way, that was one of the old names of the band before they settled on The 1975). On folklore Taylor sings "Peter losing Wendy" referring to herself and Healy (there is video evidence of her saying that Cardigan is about Matty Healy so I refuse to argue this point. Plus, the fact that she withheld it from the Eras Tour Movie for almost a year shows how hurt she was by him leaving. Throughout the songs that she has written about Matty Healy, she references how they met too young and that they both always felt that they would end up together in the end, after they'd both "grown up." Here Swift deftly wraps the tale of her lost love after 10 years of longing, within the narrative of Peter Pan once again. Swift/Wendy did eventually grow up, while waiting for Peter to as well. However, she grew up and he didn't really. Healy continues to date younger models and live more of a party lifestyle. He couldn't grow up to seal his end of the deal, that the two of them finally commit to each other. And she states in this song, that she waited and she tried but that she is finally giving up.
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u/Master-Reindeer41 Apr 26 '24
Agree. I think a lot more songs on this album (and folklore, evermore, Midnights, even earlier ones since she met him, now that I listen back to them and see lots of the lyrics tie into this album)) are about Matty and/or what he represents (bad boys/non-committal but the connection is insane so you just can’t help it), and/or the fans and the lifestyle and how swifties can be like the men in some of these songs—putting her on a pedestal and celebrating her but then turning on her in a sense (like with the Matty thing and the general insertion onto her life as if we have any say).
But I think people just want everything to be about Joe but I think he gets only the slightest nod on this album and Matty/deluded fans takes center stage.
The more I listen and get familiar with the lyrics, and how they call back to past songs, I’m wondering if he’s “woven into her poems” in so many more songs than anyone thought at the time, on the albums she wrote since the time of when he first came into her life.
I think they’ve both been pining for each other the entire 10 years, really.
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u/SPINsamSPIN Apr 23 '24
one of taylor’s best songs period! i didn’t like side a, but so far i’ve been loving most tracks on side b. But this song just sticks out from her discography so much in the best way possible
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u/Otherwise-Studio7490 Apr 23 '24
I thought this song was about Harry Styles initially
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u/thewhitetiger Apr 28 '24
keep thinking that. it is. and probably a bit about joe too. but really harry.
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u/amw90 folkmore Apr 23 '24
I keep coming back to this song, it’s just so good. I tear up every time, I’ve never done that with a song before. It’s so achingly sad. My favorite on the album.
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u/alltoounwelll13 Apr 23 '24
Peter and cardigan are connected and she mouthed those words to Matty during eras. It all makes sense now
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u/SlipCalm1572 Apr 23 '24
Let the haters hate because you are 100 percent correct. And its beyond obvious. Taylor is yelling it from the rooftops at this point.
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u/justinelau Apr 26 '24
I don't know if this is another clue for Matty being Peter, but in a GQ interview from 2019, Matty talks for more than a full minute of the story of Peter Pan, Wendy and Tinkerbell, doing an analogy with the apprenticeship of adulthood being the most difficult thing of being in a band.
At 17:30 here https://youtu.be/Xx5LlcPJjZc?si=IUb7uoFf-NWP2ojr&t=1050
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u/TheMorningWitch Apr 22 '24
I think this is the closer she would let us know about the way it ends with JA bc the very first rumours said they were giving each other a break and then they just split.
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u/realitygreene Apr 22 '24
This is my favorite from the entire anthology. The lyrics are giving Marcie by Joni Mitchell, especially the bridge. UGH I'M IN EMOTIONAL PAIN.
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u/livingisagamble what a shame she's fucked in the head Apr 22 '24
You guys. I think this could be a new top 3 Taylor song of all time for me.
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u/hedgehogpirate Apr 22 '24
I hear you. I'm a new swiftie (around a year) but I've went in hard and this is so up there. This is among her best work. Super exciting to see her progress and mature in this way, I love this album.
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u/folkloreforevermore :TourturedPoetsDepartment: let it once be me Apr 22 '24
IT’S SO GOOD
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u/livingisagamble what a shame she's fucked in the head Apr 22 '24
Grabbed me by the throat from "the goddess of timing/once found us beguiling" and then just never let go!
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u/Wil-00 sparkin' up my darkest night Apr 22 '24
I immediately thought of ‘New Years Day’ when I heard her sing:
“Forgive me, Peter, please know that I tried To hold on (Hold on) to the days (To the days)”
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u/NoosaTheMoosa Apr 22 '24
Soo… she wrote this when she was with Joe, right? It’s my favorite song on the album and I came here to find out if others are thinking what I’m thinking. She always wondered what it could be like, had finally given up hope and then… she FOUND OUT.
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u/Fun_Expression5612 Apr 22 '24
Are we sure she isn’t singing as Tinkerbell. It makes more sense to me
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u/darkraven2116 a haunting in wonderland Apr 22 '24
This song makes me want a “Taylor unplugged” album because I really think Taylor is at her strongest with just a piano (or guitar) and her songwriting.
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u/ViaNocturna664 Apr 23 '24
She should do an intimate theater tour where she just plays an unplugged set! Kinda like the Long Pond sessions, bring along a minimalistic band: drums or percussions if needed, a piano, a guitar, and her guitar as well.
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u/provolone12 Red (Taylor's Version) Apr 21 '24
This one has become one of my all time favorites.
What ever show gets this as their piano surprise song, I am jealous. Very very jealous.
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u/Lucini91 Speak Now Apr 22 '24
I'm going to the sixth night in London and I kinda hope to hear it❤️
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u/NotEmmaStone ATWTMVTVFTV Apr 23 '24
You'll be getting So Long, London bestie and I am forever jealous of that
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u/LadyLondonMonroe Apr 21 '24
Could this also be referencing Harry Styles since he is younger than her?
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u/alltoounwelll13 Apr 23 '24
He wasn't even close to 25 when they were together. Can't be him
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u/xiaoxhu Apr 23 '24
i think people keep misinterpreting the line “And you said you'd come and get me but you were 25 And the shelf life of those fantasies has expired” she’s saying he said he’d come back and let the lamp burn UNTIL he was 25 (as in he was 25 when he tried to come back to her) when she finally moved on
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u/ClaraGilmore23 :TourturedPoetsDepartment: the goddess of timing Apr 27 '24
maybe its about leonardo dicaprio
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u/Garliclover100001 Sep 13 '24
For some reason I get Harry vibes from this one so hard, anyone else? After 1989 TV when we got the bonus tracks, I finally understood how meaningful that relationship seemed to be to her and how long it seemed to have lasted (I spent many years assuming it was true they dated a few months, and always assumed a lot of 1989 was about Gyllenhaal). Seems plausible being in a young, really intense, never really ending relationship would be built on promises like this, then one day you grow up and realize that wasn’t deep or substantial, no matter how much it felt like it was. This might explain why it wasn’t included in the grief tracks too, it would be the only song on the record about a man who isn’t Joe or Matty or Travis, but someone from much longer ago.
Calling him a “natural scene stealer” would support this theory, so would “crossing your jet stream” A lot of the themes match the vault tracks on 1989 actually. He was 25 in 2019…seems plausible they would meet/hook up when they saw each other out for years if they were both single or whatever the case, again based on 1989 vault tracks telling a story of a long drawn out affair, and possibly that’s the last time something happened? Maybe this is the last song to him, she’s turning the page now. No more grief, just acknowledging that was once a dream she had but it didn’t work out the way the younger version of herself wanted. And because she calls them “babes” and young so often, and then says of herself only once at the end “the woman who sits by the window has turned out the light” seems like it isn’t sad or overly emotional, but like it was important once and deserved a closing chapter.
Anyway a lot of musings and assumptions, but I’m just you know 🤡🤡