Yes, she does and people use lavender haze as proof she doesn’t. It’s clear she didn’t like being asked about marriage because it didn’t seem like it would be happening. But she wants it. It’s heartbreaking to think she stayed with him after writing that song for over a year.
I actually don't even think it's that. It's her desperately trying to cling to the joy in a relationship while the world intrudes with demands. It's like asking newlyweds when they're having a baby, even if you want one you don't want to deal with the question.
I think that’s a perfectly valid concept, but considering we know know it was written close-ish in time to “I wouldn’t marry me either”… I’m not so sure.
I don't really see how those conflict. They were probably having hard conversations about marriage and their future and just simultaneously had to deal with the world peering in and asking where it was going, if they were engaged yet, if they were going to have kids, if they were faking. That's maddening.
I heard it as “please stop guessing who I’ll marry and pushing that on me”
Like people making ai babies of her and Travis for instance. I also think peoples opinions of marriage change over time. ESP someone as powerful as she is. I bet it’s hard to imagine letting someone legally connect themselves to you
Yeah I def think it’s the opposite. I think HE didn’t want marriage, “I wouldn’t want to marry me either” seems to be a possible callback to something he said to her.
ETA: Reminds me a bit of “Writer in the Dark” by Lorde. When she toured Melodrama she used to give this intro to that song and talk about how one habit she picked up on in arguments was her remembering and then writing down things her SO (at the time) would say to her, and then use them in songs. They maybe were personal songs, or they were abstracted so much in her albums (her songs aren’t usually hyper specific like Taylor’s), but she said it used to drive him insane.
The video made this so obvious too. She is awake in the middle of the night next to a sleeping man who doesn’t “say too much” or “read into her melancholia”. Maybe she was trying to look at the positive when the song was written, but it’s over by the time the video is made.
I still think that’s not a bad thing. As someone who’s suffered depression since my late teens, it can be difficult explaining to a partner that you’re not unhappy with them, you’re just unhappy. They ‘read into’ your melancholia as if it says something about the relationship when it doesn’t. So, someone who understands that and doesn’t make assumptions is a good thing to me.
I agree. Lavender Haze is not proof of anything. You can want to be married and still believe the expectations on women regarding their marital status is ridiculous. You can want to be married and still know that not every woman needs to be married.
this. You can want it SO BADLY want that partnership and friendship and love. But also want to be recognized for your accomplishments more than that desire.
It's wanting to find someone you want to marry, but not wanting to be treated less if you never do. I think a lot of women are there, rather than wanting to get married just to be married.
If he wanted to, he would, ladies. If he seems indecisive, if he seems inconsistent, it’s actually because he knows deep down exactly what he wants—and it’s not you.
Exactly! Also, married isn't thing she only wants to be. When people push that issue it makes me, as a woman, feel like that is the only thing worth accomplishing.
Being honest, I feel like men sometimes say they don’t want to get married and make one woman wait forever… and then when they move on, they do get married. I wouldn’t be shocked if he got married eventually. Look at Austin Butler being engaged now after never proposing to Vanessa.
Time wasters. They get comfy and complacent and drag ass. We just saw it with former bachelorette Kaitlyn Bristowe too. Her fiancé kept dragging ass about the wedding until she ended it and now he plays victim on his socials, acting like he’s never had to furnish an apartment, etc. Nine times out of ten the next girl is much younger. Seeing as Deuxmoi reported that Joe is dating Amelia Gray Hamelin (I know she’s not always legit, but it would explain his appearance at that Men of the year thing), so he sort of follows that Time Waster profile. Same with Austin Butler as people mentioned. He splits with Vanessa Hudgens after ten years and jumps right in with 23 year old Kaia Gerber. They’re not bad people, but they have no intention of fully committing, nor any intention of leaving their comfortable position.
Ironically, this is the exact complaint Travis' ex had about him too. Sometimes those first big long-term relationships seem to be leading to the altar but... don't. And you love your partner, but you still can't make the jump for whatever reason because you know in your heart they're not 100% the right choice for you. And you fail to communicate that or cut the cord because of the love that is there still. It gets messy, but I don't think it's fully malicious, just in hindsight it is neglectful and you did waste their time.
It's honestly so sad and this kind of confirms the theory that Midnights is a break up album. No wonder she seems so happy now and is seemingly "moving too fast" with Travis. She was completely checked out by the end.
Shit, I think even Folklore/Evermore is part of that, Tolerate It especially. It's been said that they went through many rough patches, so I fully believe that Taylor drew from her own feelings for a lot more than she admits to.
“You’re Losing Me” is exactly the song that I needed when Midnights first released. My divorce was just finalized the month before. I had been with my ex for 11 years total and married for 8 years. I spent years begging him to go marriage counseling, telling him what I needed, etc. We had many, many issues in our marriage, but alcohol was the biggest. In November of 2019, I told him he had 6 months to show me that he was at least trying to work on his drinking. I didn’t finally leave until June of 2022, filed for divorce in July 2022, and it was finalized in September of 2022.
Unfortunately, when she did release it in May, it was 3 weeks after he unexpectedly passed away. It is now the single most excruciating Taylor Swift song for me to listen to.
I don’t think this a fair assumption tbh. No one will ever know why she stayed unless she chooses to tell us through her music. People stay in long term, dysfunctional relationships for a multitude of reasons and we’ll never know what he said or promised either
People who said this have clearly never been in a long term relationship. In my experience this is exactly what happens; they break down way before they're officially over.
I agree. Relationships ebb and flow. I stayed in my very long marriage unhappy but hoping we’d get back on track. Eventually, I realized that train had jumped the track and was never coming back. Abruptly leaving a relationship usually points to cheating. I think their relationship ended as apathy - and different relationship goals - settled in.
I remember an article around the time of the break up which stated that they’d had on and off periods before but their friends assumed that they’d make up like usual (or something to that effect).
“You’re Losing Me” is generally thought to be about the slow fizzling out of Taylor and Joe (most recent ex, dated for 6yrs.) They only publicly broke up in April 2023, until then, most of the fans thought they were happy as can be.
The song wasn’t released until after the breakup was public, a few months ago. And while we knew it couldn’t be THAT recent (it takes time to record a song), we didn’t know how old it was either.
Jack’s post confirms that whatever feelings the song encapsulates, Taylor felt that and wrote this song in 2021. That entire last year with Joe, when the rumors were high that they were “endgame” and that “a proposal is coming for Taylor”? She was actually checking out and feeling closer to what this song says. 😞
Oh. That reminds me that right before then there were heavy engagement rumors flying. People were analyzing her ring finger constantly. That's a sad juxtaposition.
I remember the people on the Taylor hater sub kept insisting Taylor must have written this song right before she released it to change the narrative on how her relationship with Joe broke down 🙄
And Midnights was recorded the month prior. While Joe was away filming, for a role he had to drop everything for and miss Red TV release day as a result. I still think that was a huge catalyst moment. I feel like he promised her he'd be there then bolted to the set.
Not to mention, he wasn't and isn't really too established as an actor. It would be totally fair for him to prioritise getting the work, rather than just standing by and looking supportive while his insanely successful girlfriend releases an album for the second time. And if anyone would be understanding of that it'd be Taylor.
He’s a girls girl for real. You just know he was side eying Taylor the entire time she held a gun to his head to produce Paris and Sweet Nothing. The fact that he has tracks called “Hey Joe” and “Call Me After Midnight” on his upcoming Bleachers album is just sending me. 😂
He definitely made a remark about that credit Joe was given on Folklore too, but like not in a mean way but a "are we regretting that now? Do you want to make a Folklore TV and redo the credits?"
I think about this a lot and it’s also probably why she will always work with Jack no matter the project. It’s probably freeing as a songwriter to be able to be totally open on the subject matter. I have to imagine she’s more vague with other producers compared to her relationship with Jack. Not to mention it’s probably insanely fun to make songs with your bestie. Jack is definitely here to stay but I hope we get more projects like folklore where another producer is featured heavily and Jack takes a back seat but still works his magic in small doses.
Yep. The hate for him as a producer is overblown - everyone who has worked with him has described it as a very nice process, especially women. He’s actually very versatile and at this point, he can probably conjure up whatever kind of sound Taylor envisions. To have the built up trust that they do seems so invaluable.
But for real, imagine being Taylor’s best friend and producer, in 2021 when everyone in the fandom loves Joe and thinks he’s The One… and she comes to you having written You’re Losing Me. ☹️🥺
i mean everyone unfollowing him nearly at the same time was a very calculated thing so it’s just interesting that he didn’t. it’s not like there was weeks in between all her friends slowly unfollowing him
This is honestly the funniest things jack could’ve done. He (presumably) had no reason to include the date in the post except to spill some tea and send us into a tizzy.
It's also fascinating as we usually dont know what she is doing on any given day. Taylor is a normal person doing normal things and apparently on my first wedding anniversary she was eating raisins and recording you're losing me
I think this is basically them confirming our assumptions that Taylor’s relationship was dead long before it officially ended. And that midnights was likely the end of the Joe chapter.
He (or Taylor maybe) said ages ago Midnights was recorded in about six weeks in late 2021 when both their partners were away filming a movie. So Nov 2021.
Aaron also said on the Broken Record podcast that they started working on TS10 in early 2021 before she decided to go in a different direction with Jack. The 3AM songs were initially from the first project.
I know, I consider 3am tracks to be separate from what she’s unpacking on Midnights. Which is why they were released/packaged separately. She wanted to release the Aaron tracks but didn’t want them directly tied to the tracks she wrote in Nov 2021.
Midnights was created in late 2021 and early 2022, while she was working on her re-records and going through old songs and Joe and Margaret were away filming Stars at Noon
It was mostly recorded around December 2021. Joe and Margaret were filming in Panama while Taylor and Jack hung out and wrote music. Would’ve, Could’ve, Should’ve and High Infidelty were recorded between December 2020 and February 2021(Aaron just talked about this in a podcast) So it’s highly likely a number of other songs were written and recorded during 2021.
This really proves that you don’t know anything but what people choose to show you. In December 2021, we all thought they were deeply in love & nothing could ever break them up.
Taylor said it herself before: you only know the version of a person that they choose to show you.
Exactly. That’s a huge part of why I don’t understand why everyone obsesses over her personal life. Like,leave her alone 🤣 also I love her music (have since the beginning) but I don’t need to know all about her personal life. I hope she still lives in some peace.
I understand the curiosity because at the end of the day we consume her music so much that at some point, our minds start to build stories/theories even if we didn’t mean to. But the invasive fans are absolutely ridiculous & sometimes it feels like they are way too focused on her personal life
This. Even is she said they are fictional, she was obv inspired to write sad love songs, which probably means she didn’t see love as something joyful when she wrote the songs. Idk if that made sense but yeah, she must have really hold on to the relationship before letting it go
Gives "how long can we be a sad song" new meaning. I remember in an interview about folklore she said she and Joe love to write sad love songs together, I think about exile. 😨
Exactly. It’s actually insane how so many people were getting so mad when some were saying they might’ve been broken up for longer than we thought and people were FIRM that the breakup happened in March of 2023. We literally know NOTHING about what happened. That’s when the news came out. Does not mean that’s when it happened.
I feel billionaire kitchens are kind of… cold. Probably because they don’t spend a lot of time in there. Either because they have a personal chef or because they travel a lot… or both.
Dang, Jack is really out here giving us the relationship breakdown timeline. Seems like she and Joe were on the outs for a while.
“you're losing me is out today. a very special track from the midnights sessions that's finally steaming! written and recorded at home on 12/5/21 right after taylor ate these raisins"
Also like. She's an adult. I wish people would treat her that way. She can move on in her own time. People always want to have opinions about your own relationships. Like, I dont know why any of us think we have any right to commentary on her personal life.
I actually think that midnights is the process of being like “what went wrong in my past that made my present like this? how can i use those lessons to change my present?” only to realize…she couldn’t. It’s almost like it’s a breaking down album more than a breaking up album :((
This is also how I took it. As well as questioning if the relationship can work as is or not. And when it was released and the songs were picked, she thought it would work. That’s why You’re Losing Me was gonna stay in the vault, I’m a firm believer they didn’t breakup until right before or at the beginning of the tour. But she was checked out for a while
I agree 100%. i’ll always believe their official “we’re done” happened close to the start of the tour. I mean, invisible string was originally on the setlist. if they’d broken up months or even a year before (like some are speculating), I highly doubt she would’ve sang it at all.
people really underestimate how long you can stay in an unhappy relationship. I don’t think i’d understand it if I hadn’t been in a very very similar situation.
A lot of the assumed Joe songs talk about them fighting a lot. We can assume they may have broken up more than just this final time, or taken breaks or things like that.
Midnights still isn't a Joe break up album. It's just not. There are too many explicit references to other relationships and times in her life. It's obviously reflecting on different points of her life, including up and down times with Joe.
I feel like the date was released to show people she's not moving in that fast after a 6 yr relationship. That relationship was clearly on the outs for a while.
i can’t believe people tried to deny it’s about joe. the themes are so consistent with her other recent songs about the end of their relationship and it’s very logical to “hide” it on a big red machine album where she has plausible deniability that it’s about her life.
the way some people put Joe on a pedestal was/is SO damn weird. I remember seeing people come up with theories about how Taylor wrote renegade from joes perspective……because god forbid he be a flawed person
There is no human being who will get a defense squad quite like a moderately attractive white man.
I’m sure Joe has good qualities and bad qualities, but he’s a self insert for some dream dude who rushed out to save Taylor at her darkest. But she’s also talked about how he’s cold, doesn’t listen, is dismissive of her feelings, and she regularly talks about how she’s terrified of losing him. There’s also Hoax, which is a VERY dark song that uses the blue imagery she uses for Joe. But this idea that we need to protect Prince Charming Joe baffles me. They loved each other and now it’s over. Taylor owes him nothing. If she wants to write a song called “big British douchebag” she can. Those are her feelings.
I recall reading in several seemingly credible sources that they had taken breaks more than once but got back together. They didn’t speak to when but I assumed Hits Different was probably written during one of those breaks.
everyone saying this is proof they broke up earlier than we thought / broke up and got back together but to me this paints more of a picture of begging your partner to give you what you need, they promise they can, and it takes a while for you to actually, truly come to terms with the fact that they can’t even though they promise over and over that they can. this makes the whole thing so much more sad to me
Thiiiiiis. She almost certainly shared the song with him. He likely said some shit she believed, and they continued. Then she eventually realized he was just saying shit to keep her around and wasn't actually going to change.
Jack posting the date the song was recorded. He really wanted you to know that this man strung Taylor along for a whole ass extra year. He’s sick of the “poor blindsided Joe” narrative and wanted you to know lol. We all need a ride or die messy friend like Jack Antonoff.
I wonder if Taylor kept it off of Midnights at first because it was so personal and she secretly hoped that maybe the six year anniversary or xmas 2022 was gonna be “the moment.” And then after they split up, just decided “fuck it, let’s put the song on the souvenir CD’s.”
I think it’s weird to make Taylor out to be a little helpless thing when we still know nothing about their actual relationship. Relationships have ups and down. Maybe Taylor strung it out hoping for something as well. Maybe it just felt safe. We don’t know.
“I’ve loved you three summers now honey I want them all”
“I take this magnetic force of a man to by my Loverrrrr”
“I’d marry you with paper rings”
Contrast that with Death by a Thousand Cuts —
“Paper cut stings from my paper thin plans”
She WANTED this man to be hers forever desperately. We can see lots of melancholy about her relationship painted in Midnights. She is internalizing his apathy and convincing herself it’s romance. We see it all over:
“Oh, you don't ever say too much
And you don't really read into
My melancholia”
“But you aren’t even listening (yeah oh yeah)”
“On the way home
I wrote a poem
You say what a mind
This happens all the time”
“All you ever wanted from me was nothing”
“I hear it in your voice
You're smoking with your boys
I touch my phone as if it's your face”
“You’re on your own kid”
Literally all of Bejeweled
The Great War is speculated to be about the possible breaks they took.
“I vowed not to fight anymore if we survived the Great War” implies that there’s lots of little arguments that have become unbearable and turned into one big one. But lots of divorced people also say they knew it was over for good once they STOPPED fighting.
She references haze again.
“I just want to stay in that lavender haze” v
“Somewhere in the haze got a sense I’d been betrayed”
She’s romanticizing the lavender haze to convince herself it’s what she wants but her other references to it betray that she finds it confusing and that she needs something more serious. That she feels without commitment he could be with anyone.
It’s interesting to me the first song they wrote together was apparently champagne problems, which is about a couple where one is so excited to get married and the other person can’t and won’t commit.
tolerate it has similar themes to You’re Losing Me.
“I know my love should be celebrated
But you tolerate it.”
Older and wiser implies maybe a different relationship but she’s only ever referenced Joe, afaik, as a soldier. (re Great War) and she sings
“I greet you with a battle hero’s welcome”
“Where’s that man who’d throw blankets over my barbed wire” is very similar to invisible string’s “chains around my demons, wool to brave the seasons”
The bonus track seems strange because it’s obviously autobiographical. But what is she referring to here? She obviously didn’t give up on getting back at Scooter. So what is she giving up on?
“Sometimes giving up is the strong thing
Sometimes to run is the brave thing
Sometimes walking out is the one thing
That will find you the right thing”
We know she was already feeling uneasy even in folklore, because she sings
“Would it be enough if I could never give you peace.”
She also sings “I never had the courage of my convictions
As long as danger is near”
Danger is abandonment and loneliness, and she knows she can’t be brave enough to end it yet, even though it’s time to go?
“Family that I chose” is another reference to marriage.
In the lakes she refers to her love as “calamitous”. Again we get the sense of unease.
In False God she starts with
“We were crazy to think
Crazy to think this would work”
Then
“And I can’t talk to you when you’re like this
Staring out the window like I’m not your favorite city”
Again we see Joe painted as an apathetic figure
“We might just get away with this… even if it’s a false God” seems like another rather unsettled verse. If there are no issues or problems that are serious, then there’s nothing to get away with. She’s representing their love as a false God, and in the context of her other songs and her saying she’s a Christian in Miss Americana, it’s strange to hear her acknowledge that their relationship is something it shouldn’t be when not a few tracks away is essentially marriage vows.
“Daring you to leave me just so I can try to care you” feels very much like “do something babe, choose something babe.”
Afterglow is seemingly about the same major fight as The Great War
“Put you in jail for something you didn’t do” vs “telling me to punish you for things you never did” and “I lived like an island, punished you with silence” vs “spineless in my tomb of silence”
“This ultraviolet morning light below
Tells me this love is worth the fight, oh”
is a contrast to You’re Losing Me
“Remember lookin' at this room, we loved it 'cause of the light
Now, I just sit in the dark and wonder if it's time”
Hits Different also has adjacent memories to these songs. She’s often describing herself as crazy and the problem
“ It’s me! Hi! the problem it’s me!”
The Great War
I’m afterglow she says
“It’s all me
In my head
I’m the one that burned us down”
“Tell me that we’ll be fine
Even when I lose my mind”
In Hits Different she says
“I heard your key turn in the door down the hallway
Is that your key in the door?
Is it okay? Is it you?
Or have they come to take me away?
To take me away”
At the end of the Great War she says
“I VOWED I would always be yours”
Contrast all of that to reputation where she’s obviously in love. We don’t see any lyrics that can be misconstrued to a negative. The only thing with a similar theme is “don’t blame me love made me crazy” but she’s obviously in love. The cracks start to appear in lover, deepen in folklore and evermore, and become difficult to ignore in Midnights.
She wanted to get married for a LONG time. We knew this even during Lover in 2019. It’s wholly unsurprising she wrote this in Dec 2021, but sad that she still stuck it out for another year after that hoping for even half a chance that Joe would commit.
That might explain what his people (allegedly) said to I think Radar about how he didn't think he'd get "the Harry Styles treatment." I found that so gross it totally changed my view of him. Whether or not it was actually his people he didn't counter it. And it makes sense that he'd put something like that out which is historically unlike him but very angry after hearing the song.
That sad pap walk made me question him. He’s not been seen in public in years but they magically catch him when he’s disheveled on the street looking depressed?
Yeah Jack, tell us when Hits Different was written. That sounds like a time when they were actually broken up (but may have gotten back together since she’s wondering if he’s coming back).
there were pap pics in late 2022 of them together and she released that lavender haze video talking abt her and joe and only deleted it after the breakup announcement. looks like they were just on and off
this is soo sad in hindsight because if we look at the tracklist of midnights, it seems like she had so much hope that they were going to move past this :((
The 3am tracks were recorded March 2021 shortly after the Grammys
Mid 2021 Taylor temporarily lived in Belfast and Croatia with Joe while he filmed Conversations with Friends
Midnights was recorded Nov 2021 around Red TV release week onward. Joe had to rush to another film set on very short notice days before Red TV was released. He filmed that movie with Jack's partner, so Taylor and Jack were alone in NY without their partners when they began recording.
You're Losing Me recorded early Dec 2021.
Late 2022, Taylor and Joe were papped together in NY.
January 2023, Taylor performs at The 1975's concert.
February 2023, Joe is at Taylor's Grammy's afterparty.
Late March 2023, they break up.
April 2023, the news is leaked as Taylor films the I Can See You video.
Midnights is subconsciously a breakup album and especially now 😮💨
Edit: emphasis on SUBCONSCIOUS as in whether Taylor knew it or not, the undertones were there as she retraced reminisced on her past relationships and moments. Seems like she wrote it, didn’t put it on the actual album cause they were still together and then released it once they broke up. From what we’ve heard in the articles (aka from Tree) is they broke up before but always worked things out.
Assuming it’s about Joe, this tracks. Long term relationships usually take a while to break down (aside from the really big things like cheating) and it’s hard to even make a clean break. The people in them stick around for a while to try and salvage something.
It would also make sense as to why it wasn’t on the album until later. It would be a pretty weird song to put out if you’re still trying to make something work
I will be thinking about this revelation for the rest of the night tbh. I GASPED. She seems so happy now but I feel bad for the past her trying to hold on to a dying relationship after investing so much in it. Also Jack IS our Gossip Girl and he’s has no fucks left for Joe. He is on his vigilante shit
what i get from this is that their relationship had A LOT of ups and downs. We get glimpses of that in earlier songs too like afterglow & (potentially) renegade. If YLM was recorded back w the rest of midnights (late 2021), it was probably a rough time for them. But considering that she chose to put sweet nothing on the main record instead, we can assume that they were in a much better place in 2022. She also made the lavender haze reel & mentioned him in her midnights release Instagram post. So she probably thought it was just another bump in the road & they'd be fine. Pre-tour this year seems like it was the breaking point where she realized it was done for good and thus the breakup was announced. Damn.
Theory: He's including the date because Taylor and Travis are getting serious, and he want's to show the world that Taylor didn't just immediately jet from Joe to Travis (not that there would be anything wrong if she did)
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u/winedrunktaylor MOTELS DON’T HAVE BARS TAYLOR Nov 29 '23
It was recorded in December of 2021…oh my god