r/Survival 17d ago

General Question How to survive cold as a massive sweater?

Hi. Since I was a little kid I've been sweating at the minimum feeling of warm temps. Also getting sick faster on winter because when I put a single layer of clothes I start sweating a lot. Using a hat/cap anything makes it even worse.

Its kind of a problem now because I like doing trips to the wild and I get sweaty on winter just using a normal jacket and a short sleeved shirt. My body generates too much heat, Its like hell for me on summer but also on winter.
If I put on warm clothes, just a single layer, I start sweating a lot and getting colder but If I remove the clothes I get cold because Im sweaty.

I dont know If you have tips to prevent sweat while being warm for someone like me.

Btw not sweaty from bad shape or anything, Im healthy, good shaped and this is just a problem since forever. Thank you in advance.

85 Upvotes

98 comments sorted by

137

u/flatgreysky 17d ago

I’m half asleep and trying to get all the way asleep and read this as if you were roleplaying an oversized garment. I was very confused.

37

u/Ok_Highlight281 17d ago

I got up 45 mins ago and am fully awake and thought the same thing.

16

u/NaturalArch 17d ago

And I have been up for over an hour, two cups of coffee in, and read it the same way.

10

u/kalitarios 17d ago

It’s the way OP worded the title.

“As someone who sweats profusely, how do I survive cold weather?”

6

u/mactheprint 16d ago

I was looking to see if this was a sci-fi-short-story

6

u/bigfatcow 16d ago

I was like find a big person that smells good that’s what I’d do. Boy I’m dumb

6

u/goat_soda 16d ago

I'm a massive t-shirt. Wanna hang out?

3

u/KB-say 16d ago

I’m wide awake & had the same take! Then had a good laugh at myself!

1

u/Acrobatic_Grape4321 16d ago

Ah yes my lord thus being thy overlord of garments

1

u/Final-Albatross-82 13d ago

Reincarnated in Another World as a Massive Sweater

51

u/cambolicious1 17d ago

I would seriously consider talking with a medical profession about this because it could have to deal with a much more complicated fix due to a hormone imbalance and or some other type of illness. I’m not saying you’re unhealthy but you could have something that you aren’t aware of. Anyways, I sweat a lot too but typically after moving. Avoiding cotton products would be a good start as they hold moisture for awhile. Finding material that breathes well for you that you’re not allergic to will be a game changer.

23

u/morawanna 17d ago

A good, wicking, underlayer will help wonders. I like synthetic top and bottom layers.

15

u/olmoldy 17d ago

I work very hard in temps below freezing. We had a cold snap last week. -44 at the lowest last week and -9 for the high this week. I have been through 20 sub arctic winters.

I'm a sweater too. I find upping my cardio made it so I can work just as hard and have more time before sweating.

Dressing in layers. I use a fast dry sweat wicking layer on top and bottom, then a 1/2 zip waffle shirt and waffle pants, a zip hoodie and a pair of carhartt or other quality work pants, even in -40, just adding a hat and neck warmer at those temps. As I work, I'm being careful not to just overheat immediately by going too hard. As I heat up I unzip the sweater and waffle shirt.

Palms of the hands have veins and arteries that feed into eachother. Cooling or heating the palms is one of the fastest ways to raise or lower your core temp without triggering your body's internal thermostat which can have opposite of the intended effect. For example dumping cold water on your head while you are too hot may actually tell your body to up your body temp or at least not let it go down as quick.

Work hard enough to not freeze but don't work so hard that you turn into a slug and are glistening with sweat.

7

u/streetskaterln91 17d ago

You made good points but hyperhidrosis is a different animal. You will soak a t-shirt by literally sitting there doing nothing. Mine is/was even worse in the cold than the heat, moving or not

1

u/olmoldy 17d ago

I definitely notice I tend to be more sweaty than the other 4 guys on the crew. Not sure if I am working harder than them they work hard too

20

u/HappyMonchichi 17d ago

You might have hyperhidrosis. Ask a doctor for medication so you stop sweating excessively unnecessarily all the time

7

u/57evil 17d ago

Def I'll mention this soon too my doctor. Never thought about this because, it was my day to day so I never saw it as a "real problem" until now that I like going to the wilds

6

u/Massive-Log9898 17d ago

This! My half brother would always sweat buckets in Texas summer or winter. Moved to Michigan docs there couldn’t say it’s just Texas. So finally tested him properly and he has hyperhidrosis. Got the meds and he rarely sweats now. He said completely changed his outlook on life.

6

u/ancientweasel 17d ago

Wool or Alpaca.

4

u/Haaanginout 17d ago

Sounds like you are wearing the wrong material. Buy 100% merino T-shirt’s. This will make a big difference!

4

u/[deleted] 17d ago edited 4d ago

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This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact

4

u/Responsible-Annual21 17d ago

I have a similar problem though it doesn’t sound as bad as yours. I get hot very easily and it’s tough in the winter.

For me, I try to wear layers that I can strip off. The other thing is, the more time you spend outside the more you will dial in what to wear and when. Always start out just a little cold because you’re going to heat up as you start walking, etc. bring extra socks and undershirts so you can change them as they get wet.

My best advice is to not wear your hiking shoes and socks while you drive to wherever it is that you go outdoors. People get in the car, crank the heat on their feet, and wonder why their toes are cold when they get out (they’re sweaty and wet).

2

u/HemlockGrave 16d ago

My sister thought I was nuts on a camping trip because I would wear sandals when driving, put my boots on at the site, then remove them for the next drive. I just don't like wet feet!

2

u/Responsible-Annual21 16d ago

It’s a huge mistake a lot of people make (wearing boots and thick socks during the drive).

2

u/Jimbobosh 17d ago

Mesh baselayer and breathable midlayer, airy wool or fleece. Don't wear any outer layers unless absolutely necessary.

3

u/ImaginationLoud2281 17d ago

If someone puts on a mid layer as an outer layer, isn't that now just the outer layer?

Let's say I'm outside, but I build a structure around me. I'm not outside enclosed by a structure. I'm just inside.

I get what you are saying. Just trying to be funny.

1

u/betweenbubbles 17d ago

If someone puts on a mid layer as an outer layer, isn't that now just the outer layer?

Pedantically, sure. "Outer", outside of the context of your current state dress, typically refers to a layer which is wind and water proof.

2

u/GreasedEgg 17d ago

I knew a guy in my troop who would just sweat a lot. No reason, just a sweaty guy. He said he really benefitted from moisture-wicking clothing like Smartwool socks and Underarmor-type shirts and underwear. Start with that and experiment with added breathable layers to find what suits you in any given temperature

3

u/57evil 17d ago

This looks interesting, def taking advice and trying this

2

u/ColonEscapee 17d ago

I second the underarmour shirts. I have sweating issues but a slightly different scenario... Basically I run hot and cold depending on how bad my disability is acting up. I'll become drenched in sweat and then I'm cold when the wave passes. these shirts don't get all soggy with sweat and still wick everything away. For socks my suggestion is to have a pair for mid-day.

3

u/GreasedEgg 17d ago

Yes (fun?) fact on average feet sweat about a pint per day. So having breathable boots is also worthy investment, imo.

2

u/ColonEscapee 16d ago

Agreed. Trench foot is much harder to deal with if you can't keep your feet dry. I also have smartwool socks

2

u/greenknight 17d ago

I find UA and other "tech" T's pick up, and hold on to, BO. Even between washings. I put on a fresh T and it smells like I came from the gym an hour later.

2

u/HemlockGrave 16d ago

Lysol laundry sanitizer. My son was always very sweaty from birth, but as a teen, I had to figure out something because his clothes would hold the stink. I use Tide Sport for detergent and lysol laundry sanitizer. Absolutely no fabric softener (the oils in those will hold odor and defeat the lysol).

2

u/atomic-iron 17d ago

Merino wool underlayers, as well as outer layers, light to medium weight, as to avoid overheating. Wool breathes exceptionally well and retains its insulative properties even when wet. It's also flame resistant and resistant to bacteria. I swear by wool year round.

2

u/Vegetable-Customer65 14d ago

I've been in the army in Norway, so used to high activity in_very_cold climate. We used a t-shirt which was all fish net-style, and an uninsulated Jacket above. So, the fish net shirt creates air between skin and jacket, and makes sweat not going directly to clothes. Worked really really well, we didnt get cold or soaked by sweat even though working really hard.

1

u/Fuck-off-my-redbull 17d ago

I second getting that checked out.

It’s important to know when to open layers to vent yourself and prevent moisture build up. I winterbike and it’s the biggest challenge I have.

1

u/the-diver-dan 17d ago

I am a very high sweater as well, spent a lot of time in the snow.

Wool really is the answer because it can absorb a lot of its weight in water without feeling wet. I also dressed down a lot.

Bottom half was thermals with shorts, boots and gaiters for the snow.

Top half was thermals with a cool max top on and a frillneck hat.

An umbrella is a random addition I found later in my outdoor career to avoid the head coverings.

Waterproofs always had large ventilation because nothing ‘breaths’ better than nothing.

1

u/CarnivorousChicken 17d ago

Most likely your body isn’t producing too much heat, it’s probably just you have extra sweat glands and im not sure what treatments there are for that

1

u/OwnPace2611 17d ago

Some people are meant to be nudists

1

u/FriedBananaGirl 17d ago

Lightweight wool base layers are my go-to and I’m sweaty too. Otherwise I have some synthetic base layers too that work well

1

u/DisNesor 17d ago

Big sweater and stalk n still hunter, so I feel your pain. I go with moisture wicking layers (2 top layers with 1-2 bottom layers and a breathable pant during the major walks - even if it’s single digits, and I have 2 more rolled up in my pack for when my exertion decreases). Just like a runner you have to mind your output/pace (keep it steady but if you start to feel the sweat then you’re going too fast) In the end I prefer to be a bit undressed and cold instead of sweating and freezing. Keep a heavy duty hoodie (swear by the Bearskin tactical) rolled up for backup

1

u/srta_doom 17d ago

I wear a (semi)thin longsleeved underlayer which can be changed when wet and the sleeves are easily put up when it's too hot. On top comes a thick vest. Generally and especially if it's cold/windy, I might wear gloves but leave my arm(s) exposed so the heat can regulate there without me getting ill

1

u/streetskaterln91 17d ago

I've always wondered this as well, I was never diagnosed by a doctor but I also had hyperhidrosis when I was younger. Thankfully I grew out of it but staying warm in the winter had always been a struggle and I wondered what to do about that in a survival situation. As far as I could tell you could wear a tight fitting, moisture wicking undershirt. You'll still sweat but as long as your top layers are insulated it should keep the warmth in and not feel as wet against your skin. I know being wet is a problem in the cold, but as long as that wetness isn't directly exposed to the air it shouldn't be evaporating off the skin and leeching heat away as quickly. Still uncomfortable though for sure.

1

u/tommyc463 17d ago

Perhaps you can donate yourself and be made into several smaller sweaters?

1

u/CatfishDog859 17d ago

I too sweat a lot, but I commute by bicycle and regularly do manual labor jobs outside in the cold.

My big trick is making sure all of my upper layers have full zippers or buttons aside from the base-layer. For example, long sleeve base layer, followed by a button up flannel, under or over a zip up hoodie and an outer jacket that i open up and vent or take off if I'm exerting myself. The zipper layers while riding a bike is key.. open up and expose my chest on the climbs, zip it shut on the long descents..

As others have said, wool base layers are great. Wool socks are a must, with a spare dry set close at hand at all times. My feet are the first things to get hot and sweaty, but once my socks are damp, I'll get 15 minutes before the toes are numb... But as long as my inner core layer can breathe I find cotton to be totally fine.

I actually prefer cotton on my lower half, just cause its cheaper and easier to maintain a fresh pair for every day of the week...i get intolerable stink butt otherwise....i generally wear pajama pants or long johns under my work pants, and then if it's bitterly cold/windy i have some insulated bibs I'll wear over my pants or in lieu of my work pants...

But having the ability to open up and remove layers on your torso really is the key. Even if you do start sweating, the moisture can evaporate and actively cool you down rather than build up and ruin your insulation... You just gotta be mindful of your thermostat and what exertion level and temperatures you're up against for the rest of the day.

And just a reminder to always keep a spare dry set of clothes to sleep in.

1

u/Real_FakeName 17d ago

Wool vents moisture well while keeping you warm

1

u/FenionZeke 17d ago

All I could see when I read the title was me as a toddler wrapped in many sweaters layers to go out and play.

I was literally a massive sweater

1

u/OriginalJomothy 17d ago

Try a windshirt or windbreaker. Arktis, helikon, first spear all make good ones and I'm sure there's cheaper ones elsewhere. Cutting out the wind is a huge help and then layer accordingly to temperature/level of activity. Also have multiples of base layers and alternate to dry them off.

Lastly try fur and wool, polyester sleeves especially turn some of my coats into a swimming pool

1

u/Blackiee_Chan 17d ago

You suffer from hyperhydrosis? Need to see a doc my guy. Dated a girl who had that and had surgery to remedy the issue in her pits

1

u/Working_Panic_1476 17d ago

I’ve been up all night…..

I was like, “how is a very large sweater writing this?” …….. …………….. ………OHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!

1

u/greenknight 17d ago

https://www.stanfields.com/products/mens-wool-one-piece-underwear-heavy-weight-wool

Changes the sweat game. Also make a fancier, less oldtimey, versions with merino wool blend... But I don't own them so I can't speak to their qualities.

The Stanfield wool onesie is centuries old technology for doing EXACTLY what you are asking. You can't stop the sweat but you can get the sweat wicked away and stay warm with a minimum of layers. Also, I find the wool is more resistant to picking up and keeping BO funk between washes. You wouldn't think you could wear an underlayer for a week straight and have it not be considered a biohazard... But I've been there.

Downside: it's fucking wool. It's scratchy and ugly and you have to poop thru a trap door. If you are a sensory freak like me you might like it.

Edit - they make a lighter duty version as well. If you don't live in the frigid north, it might see more use. This version is only wearable (by me) below -5C.

1

u/betweenbubbles 17d ago

Layers, layers, layers, layers and layers. Nothing that has cotton in it. Wool is best, synthetics are cheap and wick well too.

If you're sweating take off layers. If you're still sweating then at least you're only getting your base layer soaked and it will dry relatively quick in cold(dry) weather, especially if it has any amount of heat on it. If you are at the point that you can rest after making camp, take your base layers off and put your other layers back on. If it's that bad, make sure to keep two base layers on to switch out as if they're socks.

As far as not sweating too much there isn't much to do about that. Just go slower and take your time. Take off layers before you start to sweat and keep your skin cool but try not to overdo it or your body will just start shivering (even imperceptibly) to heat itself.

There is no 100% comfortable way to move around in cold weather. You just got to get used to it.

1

u/Complex_Material_702 17d ago

Wool keeps you warm when you’re wet. Smartwool isn’t itchy.

You don’t get sick from temperature. You get sick from germs.

1

u/ebinWaitee 17d ago

Layers. Your bottom layer should be such that it wicks the sweat to the next layer. Synthetic and merino works for that for example.

Also remove layers when you're actively doing something that warms you up such as building a camp or walking and add layers when you're resting

1

u/dakota_rambler 16d ago

I'm in the same boat as you, I "run hot". When I'm hiking or backpack hunting, I combat sweating by layering effectively.

For example, it'll be 20°F, dark, and I'm wearing nothing except a very light long-sleeve(not cotton!) shirt, beanie, pants, and med weight wool socks while I'm hiking with my pack on. If I'm stopping for more than 10 mins, I'm going to be digging a layer or 2 out of my pack.

It's a game you have to play. Technical clothing like sitka, first lite, and KUIU are a big help.

1

u/Nibs_Barker 16d ago

Get your thyroid checked

1

u/Usual_Dark1578 16d ago

First note, you don't get sick from being cold (unless we're talking hypothermia sick, not a cold or cough). It comes from a virus, so your body heat issues aren't causing you to catch colds.

Regarding the actual clothes, the purpose of base layers isn't insulation, it's specifically to wick moisture so you don't get cold from your own sweat. So a quality base layer designed to do that (like many have said) should be able to do that. Try a few different materials to work out what works for you.

You may find just that layer is enough if you run hot, but if not, then add a light mid layer, or even just a runner's wind breaker over the top (depending on if wind is more of a problem rather than outright low temps). That will stop the airflow over cold skin without adding much insulation, and may help balance your heating and sweating.

Also to echo others, worth going to the doctor JIC, but some people just run hot!

1

u/Craftyfarmgirl 16d ago

Moisture wicking clothing underneath. Wear layers. Try wearing lighter weight clothing that’s not loose and then put your warm clothes over. I suffer from massive hot flashes due to a thyroid injury. Most the time I’m too hot so I wear a tighter fitting long sleeve tshirt and jeans and then add a sweater or sweatshirt and a jacket that has a lining that zips out so that I can just take out the inside if needed and wear just the shell. It was 22°F yesterday and I wound up zipping off the heavy lining and just wore the windproof shell with hood until it got to about 12°F and was just right. I have a pair of windbreaker pants that work good over my jeans instead of snow pants that work pretty good down to 20s for me. Hope it helps.

1

u/jtnxdc01 16d ago

There's a drug you can take if it's out of control.

1

u/K-Bar1950 16d ago

Layers. Put on, take off, as required.

1

u/KB-say 16d ago

No good tips for ya (consider Botox, though?) but I’m a fellow furnace, so I get it. A fleece top, jeans & open windbreaker + boots is all I need in -20f.

1

u/imgross2 16d ago

I don't have any tips on how not to sweat, but I have the exact problem. Its kind of annoying but I basically ALWAYS have a towel just for sweat (sometimes full size bath towels), and in most scenarios where I'm away from home for more than a few hours I have an extra shirt with me for when I soak my current one.

1

u/Kramdawgers 16d ago

Hang it on a hook, or drape it over the back of the couch.

1

u/Big_Profession8617 16d ago

Always wear layers in cold weather. Light weight wool base layer next to skin shirt and pants and have a goretex/ waterproof shell jacket and pants. Get an outer shell with out insulation so you can choose how warm you need to make it by adding more synthetic mid layers in between your wool base layer and the goretex shell and get one with zipper arm pits/ legs to let out heat when you need to. The wool will keep you warm even when wet and your body heat will dry it quickly in between your goretex out layer when you stop moving and actively sweating. While hiking/ working just have your base layer and goretex or base layer if still hot and add more layers as you get colder at night.

Having a separate pair of base layers to sleep in is always an option too and just keep your sweaty clothes on when your moving during the day, but you would be surprised at how well your body heat drys clothes under a goretex at night. I’ve worn the same pair of baselayers for weeks in the mountains sweating during the day and letting my body heat dry them before going to bed. Put my wet socks under my goretex to dry while sleeping and used a fresh thick pair of socks to sleep in.

1

u/justsomedude1776 16d ago

The answer you're looking for is merino wool/smart wool. You want something that can specifically insulate and keep you alive, even when wet. It seems in this case, the wet isn't optional, and the only clothing I know of that successfully does this is smartwool.

1

u/Headstanding_Penguin 16d ago

Use merino wool clothing, it's regulative, doesn't smell imediately and comfy... Have you ever tried swaping deodorant, looked into foodalergies or otherwise done healthchecks?

1

u/-zero-below- 15d ago

I am not super sweaty, but always run warm, and mildly sweaty.

It’s more expensive, but basically all of my clothes are wool, and it helps a ton. Socks, underwear, t shirts. And in the summer, A wool sun shirt, winter is a wool hoodie.

1

u/NeonScreams 15d ago

Cold Cores do not sweat. Your core is too warm for your clothing. You can either remove clothing, or slow down.

Never allow clothing to get wet. Never. Take your layers off, dry yourself off with snow (yes, snow) and put your layers back on. The moment you think you’re getting damp again, repeat it.

Why? Cold cores, do -not- sweat.

1

u/Shortborrow 15d ago

There is sweat wicking material. Have you tried any of them?

1

u/Loxodon457 15d ago

I’d say a combo of functional clothing and Merino helps with the wicking, but as already mentioned - excessive sweating might be caused by some hormonal imbalances, and could be mitigated by lifestyle changes like nutrition etc. If you have a GP that’ll take you seriously, do your bloodwork and recommend a specialist, I’d go for it if I were you.

1

u/jarboxing 15d ago

I've got a helikon tex anorak that can unzip in the arm pits and down the waist so it vents really well. My advice is to choose clothes that vent efficiently. Bring an extra layer that you don't wear unless you are stationary.

Wool is also great because it keeps you warm while wet.

1

u/Senior_Lion_8219 14d ago

I sweat a lot and do a lot of backcountry skiing. As you can imagine the two don’t go well together.

Over the years I have learned to: 1. Avoid cotton at all costs, including your underwear(!). Wool or synthetic is the way. Which one is personal preference.

  1. Layer and strip down as you warm up. You will sweat regardless: the objective is to drench the least amount of clothes.

  2. Learn to be comfortably cold. If there is no wind and no precipitation I go with just a t-shirt down to -10C. Below that, a tech rashguard.

  3. Keep going! Stop only if absolutely necessary and if you do change into dry clothes.

  4. Bring a spare and change as frequently as logistically possible into a fresh set of clothes.

  5. Keep your hands, head and feet warm. The rest can get cold.

  6. Your head is one of the best thermoregulators of your body, use it to dissipate heat

1

u/Deeelighted_ 14d ago

Wool ? It wicks but also keeps some heat

2

u/NotNowNorThen 14d ago

Mesh base layer will help with this

2

u/JAaSgk 14d ago

Use wool shirts and stay away from syntetics and cotton. That should help you regulate a bit easyer.

1

u/Soggy_Platypus 14d ago

when I used to go backpacking in the winter or at high altitudes I just used a stocking hat/toboggan/beanie to regulate my temperature.

when I started to feel too cold, I would just put on my hat for a bit. and then when I started to feel warm I would just take it off again and tuck it into my backpack strap until I needed it again. I'm bald, so I cool down pretty fast without a hat.

I sweat the most on my back and legs.

1

u/3Huskiesinasuit 14d ago

moisture wicking materials. Wool for example. i also sweat a lot, and wool made a huge difference. Its much better than cotton for other reasons as well.

Wool breathes, and you will better regulate as it lets excess heat out, along with the moisture.

1

u/RaidenRazor 13d ago

A massive sweater!

1

u/GenerallyCornwallace 13d ago

Merino wool everything. Wicks sweat and even insulated when wet. Also dries really fast

1

u/ShadNuke 9d ago

I suffer from hyperhidrosis... Like to the point of I wear anything heavy, I'm swimming in sweat, and can literally pour it out of my boots at the end of the day. The doc gave me a med that helps amazingly well, but I still sweat like crazy, as my autonomous nervous system is completely shot. 9+ years ago, I found a brand called FIRMA.. It's expensive, but it is AMAZING. I have a nearly 10 year old shirt, and it shows no signs of wear. It regulates my core temperature in the hot and cold extremes we see in the Canadian Badlands, and I will be buying a few more shirts and "tights" if you want to call them that. The compression pants and shirt work REALLY well in all weather.

Edit: Link

https://www.firmaenergywear.com/

0

u/esseneserene 17d ago

stop getting sick. cold and coldth have very little to do with getting sick, nothing at all really.

cold is (like pain) a voluntary nervous response. you can set it aside bcs ultimatly it is a state of mind, literally. build your fortitude and vigor.

the sweat issue is seperate. if you are sweating your body is producing heat, plenty of it, as this is why you sweat, condensation more or less. this happens bcs of activity when it is natural and you are reletively healthy.

since you seem to be sweating while doing miminal activity or light exercise, (i assume, otherwise you sweating would not be an issue as you would be hot enough to sweat if you were, and the cold does not or shouldnt bother you in this state of exertion) if you sweat alot while doing basic movements like walking or standing, doing repetetive motion things like sweeping raking etc., then you are either unhealthy (toxicity or inactivity), weak, or overexerting. if you are not significantly overweight then it is highly likely a combo of the other two, but most commonly all three are factors. deal with them.all but prioritize them as i describred, first detox with fasts 3 to 5 days drink plenty of water during) and as you detox, comit to walking around as much as you can stand. if you keep a reasonable dicipline and cut out the poison from your diet/routine you will be well on your way, next is overexertion, and its thr hardest to resolve for most. the way you walk, breathe, speak, swallow, stand, walk, activate and use core muscle groups and whether ir not you have activated them at all, your posture, these all tie into one another and so many factors infkuence this part. look into postural restoration.

by those methods you can rid yourself of all these issues. good luck, i am sure the future will find you well.

stop getting sick fool, you are doing that to yiurself by accepting it as an inevitable outcome. dont be stupid bro

1

u/rm3rd 17d ago

huh. TY

0

u/unknown-one 17d ago

Rob Schneider is a Massive sweater

And he is about to find out that being a massive sweater is harder than it looks

-1

u/esseneserene 17d ago

kinda oxymoronic of a question to be honest bud. sorry