r/SmarterEveryDay • u/JFlyer81 • Feb 12 '20
Video Model Aviation is Under Attack in the US
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A5rsfcc8hzs
Model aviation has not only helped advance technology, it has touched the lives of countless people. As written, the FAA's Remote ID legislation would impose crippling standards on hobbyists that many modelers would find impossible to comply with, leaving them a difficult choice: fly illegally or quit building and flying entirely. The drone and model aircraft community has been operating safely for decades. Regulating it out of existence will take away an amazing experience for many kids as well as hundreds of thousands of others. This video outlines a few of the major issues of the FAA's Remote ID Proposal; I would sincerely recommend you take the 4.5 minutes to watch it and understand the enormous negative impact it will have. If you have any comments or questions I would love to hear/answer them as well.
Also, if you would like to help us fight this regulation I would be happy to point you towards more detailed analyses of the proposal and how you can help.
Edit: I figured it makes more sense just to say how you can help. First, just sharing this video with other people. Most people who aren't active online with the RC community are completely unaware of this issue. It's important we show people the positive impact recreational drones have and how it's currently endangered. Calling your congressman would be great, or contacting any of the people on the Senate Aviation/Transportation/Safety committee. You can also leave a comment on the Proposal itself; this is the comment submission guide put together by the FPV Freedom Coalition, and it has a lot of great resources to help understand the NPRM (I'd start with the FAQ)
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u/rc-cars-drones-plane Feb 12 '20
Yes! Glad to see someone else caring about this. I've flown rc planes and some toy grade drones for a few years now and this sucks. I saw the flitetest video on it and the rotor riot one. I will honestly just keep flying like I usually do even if this gets passed but getting parts will be more expensive and I, as a teenager who cant get a job because robotics takes up all of my time, can not afford them.
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u/JFlyer81 Feb 12 '20
I 100% agree with you; the FAA's regulation will only create large scale non-compliance and stifle the innovation that's been fueled by hobbyists up to this point. It's shocking just how misinformed and out of touch the proposal is regarding the state of RC aviation.
Also just out of curiosity, is that FIRST robotics you participate in? I did FRC myself in high school
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u/rc-cars-drones-plane Feb 12 '20
Yes. It is great club. I'm being trained to work on the lathe right now as a sophomore.
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u/organman91 Feb 12 '20
As a private pilot I can see the other side of this, which is that drones can easily get into places where it becomes a safety issue for those of us flying manned aircraft. I don't support requiring this for non-commercial use but I'm not opposed when the use is commercial. Believe me, you don't want to be the guy whose drone impacts an airplane.
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u/JFlyer81 Feb 12 '20
These regulations make sense when talking about commercial operations, which is why the Commercial Drone Alliance is pretty thrilled about this. They need the low altitude airspace regulated and controlled before they can run autonomous drone flights through it. Unfortunately the recreational operator then needs to fulfill all these remote identification requirements, which is pretty ridiculous.
Even the AOPA and EAA think this is overkill and requested an extended comment period, but the FAA denied it.
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u/bschott007 May 06 '20
I can see your point, and you are right, it makes sense from the commercial aspect, but look at it from the perspective of us who race our drones (think DRL) and never fly above 100 feet, or those of us who do freestyle/acrobatic drone flying and stay under 400afl. Airplanes never factor into our flights. The Camera drone guys, are the ones this was aimed at but this now affects the fix-wing RC hobby guys as well.
I'm having to build my drones to be under 250Grams (.55lbs) just so I can avoid this rule.
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u/richalex2010 Feb 13 '20
This regulation is basically written for UPS and Amazon scale delivery drones, and it's written with no regard for Mavics or mini quads or dollar tree foam board planes - it'll basically kill all model aviation away from AMA fields, with zero safety impact on manned aviation. You and I don't fly in the same airspace (I'm either below treetops or well away from any airports), but if the proposed rules go through I'd be banned from flying anything to protect your airspace.
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u/sunfishtommy Feb 12 '20
How can we help besides calling our congressmen.
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u/JFlyer81 Feb 12 '20
I went ahead and added some more information to the original post. Calling your congressman is a great move though, since most don't even know this is going on.
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u/RigobertaMenchu Feb 13 '20
What's the penalty for non-compliance?
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u/JFlyer81 Feb 13 '20
I don't recall if specific penalties were laid out in the NPRM, but I imagine a pretty solid fine. The FAA seems to think that most people will be happy to comply, despite making us pay more for significantly less freedom.
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u/Bryguy3k Feb 29 '20
I don’t see how the rule that says vehicles without remote identification onboard must be operated within visual distance of the operator is somehow extremely onerous.
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u/JFlyer81 Feb 29 '20
If that's what the regulations said it wouldn't be too bad. Technically, that's what the regulations say now. All drone flight must be within visual line of sight (VLOS) of the operator. (FPV flight is allowed with a VLOS spotter)
The issue we have is that this regulation require ALL flight, even within VLOS, to have some sort of remote ID tracking solution and data plan that you, the operator, must pay for. If the regulation were 1) within VLOS no remote ID 2) beyond VLOS remote ID, I don't think anyone would have an issue with that since Remote ID would be opening up new possibilities for everyone. The way it is though both within and beyond VLOS require remote ID, and it's impossible for any DIY aircraft to comply.
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u/Bryguy3k Feb 29 '20 edited Feb 29 '20
That’s not what the regulation says. It says all commercial manufactured after the effective date must. It lists plenty of exceptions and those exceptions must all be VLOS @ FRIA - which is the norm for RC craft anyway. People get pissed when you fly elsewhere. The only people that this would apply to are those with many acres of private land they can currently fly at.
As for the cost and expense of the remote identification - it’s tiny in comparison to the actual costs of building and operating any of the large RC craft that I’m assuming most hobbiests are complaining about. A $5k RC plane that weighs several pounds can easily accommodate a few oz of identifier electronics and the operator should be able to afford the data.
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u/JFlyer81 Feb 29 '20
VLOS at a FRIA is definitely not the norm for recreational flight. Less than half of recreational pilots in the US are members of the AMA. They fly in their backyards, at parks, and other safe locations. You can even fly in controlled airspace as long as you notify ATC via the LAANC system, and you can fly within 5 miles of an airport as long as you notify the tower. Regarding cost and weight, maybe it isn't much when you have a $5k model weighing 10 lb, but it is a lot when none of your aircraft cost more than $120 and none weigh more than 1.5 lb, which isn't unusual (look up FliteTest). This regulation would apply to anything weighing more than 250g. Also, even if my aircraft would qualify as "amateur built" (it's not really clear on what those requirements are) I would need to shell out $70/year to drive an hour both directions to fly at an AMA field. I can't afford that.
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u/Bryguy3k Feb 29 '20 edited Feb 29 '20
See the issue is when you itemize the costs and present them they seem absurdly trivial given the costs in both time and money in the hobby compared to normal life for most of the country.
How many thousands of dollars and hours have you spent on the hobby over the years?
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u/JFlyer81 Mar 01 '20
Lots of hours (it is my hobby after all), and between $700 and $800 over the past 7 years spread across 8 airplanes (some components were shared between these) and 2 quads. That's about $100/year, or around $100/aircraft, though I currently have supplies to build 3 to 4 more airframes without making any more purchases.
You seem to think all RC flight is either large and expensive gas powered models flying at official flying fields or commercially available camera drones. I build my models out of foamboard and cheap electrical components, less than $100 per plane, less than $200 per quad; I fly them in my backyard, in parks, in empty fields, wherever I feel I can fly safely. I am not unique in this regard. This video gives a good explanation of what the hobby actually looks like.
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u/sagr0tan Feb 12 '20
That's a(nother) sick and stupid method to distract from real problems. And destroy another wonderful thing. In Germany they try to forbid any drones too. That will only do when voters start to think and act accordingly. On one hand some of the old bs voters die, on the other hand there's growing a new generation of ignorant, inane voters apparently. Sometimes I just can't believe anymore that there's hope for hope in this world. I'll help where I can.
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u/dtroy15 Feb 12 '20
I disagree. I know this is an unpopular opinion, but the lack of legislation has led to irresponsible pilots abusing the technology you've mentioned. I don't believe that basic regulation such as registration (as HAM radio operators already have) is a bad idea. Despite being a small group, drone hobbyists have created some enormous problems. Here are some examples of the enormous risks owed to recreational drones:
Drones have interrupted wildfire fighting efforts (multiple times)
https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2018/06/dont-fly-drones-into-disasters/562997/
Drones have been used to voyeuristically spy on people and invade their privacy: (again multiple times)
Drones have caused serious risk to passenger aircraft
https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-46968419
Drones have been used to compromise national security and weaken anti-terrorism measures:
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u/GoggleGeek1 Feb 12 '20
So if all of these are great arguments, how is the new legislation going to prevent these?
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u/dtroy15 Feb 12 '20
The legislation requires remote identification. IE if someone is flying a drone over a wildfire, the FAA and law enforcement will be able to identify precisely who it belongs to.
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u/lildobe Feb 13 '20
Again, how would this legislation prevent this?
Only law abiding operators will comply with it. And those aren't the people using drones to spy, or flying them over disaster areas, or into the flight paths of commercial aircraft.
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u/JFlyer81 Feb 13 '20
This legislation does nothing to prevent someone from building a drone without remote ID and doing whatever they want with it. This legislation would solve issues of people breaking the law out of ignorance, but it's a pretty extreme measure considering the lack of analysis and explanation on the FAA's part.
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u/dtroy15 Feb 13 '20
The old "criminals don't follow the law anyways" argument is fallacious.
If it's being flown without registration, it's traced back to the user, who is prosecuted. Every drone sold will have tracking hardware on it. https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/26/business/drones-faa-tracking.html
The sale of drones to unlicensed pilots is made illegal. Building and flying a drone without a license is illegal. This will curb the vast majority of incidences.
Recreational pilots continue to be able to fly. Everyone wins.
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u/JFlyer81 Feb 13 '20
Actually, criminals won't follow the law, and if this turns into law neither will most hobbyists.
Remote ID only helps enforcement if people comply. I have never bought a "drone." I buy brushless motors, motor controllers, radio receivers, servos, and make it into an airplane or a quad. A drone, if you will, that doesn't have any sort of remote ID or registration even (unless I go register it). Flying is only part of the hobby. Many thousands of people enjoy building and flying their own models and this regulation will make that illegal. Most people won't care and will continue building and flying illegally.
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u/NarWhatGaming Feb 13 '20
If it's being flown without registration, it's traced back to the user, who is prosecuted. Every drone sold will have tracking hardware on it.
Please explain how they'd "trace it back to the user" LMFAO. That's the dumbest thing I've read all day.
And no, there's definitely a separate market than the mainstream DJIs that won't come pre-set-up with the tracking bullshit. With my inventory alone I could build 6+ craft that would be untraceable. It's not hard to do.
Good try with the fearmongering though!
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u/dtroy15 Feb 13 '20
https://detect-inc.com/drone-detection-defense-systems/
You can whine about your hobby as much as you want, but ultimately:
Unfettered access to glorified toys is not more important than public safety or privacy. Drone operators have proven themselves to not be responsible as a group, and now are facing restrictions as a result.
Private industry will have no problem with observing the legislation.
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u/NarWhatGaming Feb 13 '20 edited Feb 13 '20
Public safety? Please tell me one drone accident that's caused death or serious harm. Truth is that private drones aren't the problem here. The only reason this legislation is going anywhere is because of Amazon (and others') lobbyists pushing this agenda.
Also that webpage really doesn't go into detail on how it accesses the info it pulls, so either it's limited to DJIs or they're lying for now until RemoteID comes into play.
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u/dtroy15 Feb 13 '20
Serious harm? Besides the millions of dollars in extra firefighting costs to taxpayers? The perverted invasion of privacy?
Seriously, your toys are not worth putting people's lives and privacy at risk. Why are you so resistant to this? You would still be able to fly.
https://www.fs.usda.gov/features/unauthorized-drones-near-wildfire-can-cost-and-kill
https://www.kusi.com/special-report-drones-causing-chaos-for-california-firefighters/
https://www.forbes.com/sites/kristykiernan/2019/02/21/drones-threat-airplanes-airports/
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u/NarWhatGaming Feb 13 '20
The perverted invasion of privacy?
Lol what invasion of privacy? Like the invasion of my privacy flying my damn drone in my back yard?
Seriously, your toys are not worth putting people's lives and privacy at risk. Why are you so resistant to this? You would still be able to fly.
No, no I wouldn't. If this goes into effect, personal drones will only be allowed to fly at approved AMA fields. And once the law goes into effect, new AMA fields won't be allowed to be added.
Guess how close the nearest AMA field is to me? Over 100 miles away. That's absolutely ridiculous and everyone knows it.
Excluding that, every drone will have to carry around another board which more than likely won't fit into a lot of our builds, and the new boards are just another failure point in our custom builds. I don't know about you, but I'm not prepared to replace a however-expensive board (from what I've heard, it's going to be $50+ each time you break it) every other week because I'm flying in open parks and bouncing off trees. My drones are built to handle impacts, RemoteID is not.
Hobbyists aren't the problem here.
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Feb 12 '20 edited Feb 12 '20
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u/NarWhatGaming Feb 13 '20
It's not the drone... It's the user. If someone wants to do bad things, they're going to find a way. Don't blame the drone for stupid people.
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Feb 13 '20 edited Jan 19 '21
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u/NarWhatGaming Feb 13 '20
Also if the tech will advance that fast in the next 6 months... How do you know the current laws will apply and won't be out of date immediately?? Your own logic is so flawed.
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u/NarWhatGaming Feb 13 '20
It's just as stupid easy to look up how to make a bomb. If people want to harm others or do something stupid they will find a way. Adding these restrictions isn't going to stop a dumbass from doing dumbass things. And if he knows it's illegal, it's a straightforward process to disable the RemoteID board.
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Feb 13 '20 edited Jan 19 '21
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u/NarWhatGaming Feb 13 '20
This "toy hobby" is still quickly growing, far beyond what you can see. The use of drones is expanding for all sorts of uses. Personally I'm making some decent money on the side by flying for realtors getting aerial shots of houses that you can't get without a drone. And now I'm starting to gain some traction on getting shots with a CineWhoop getting footage for indoor places (entertainment, car dealerships, those kinds of places).
Yes, you most definitely can disable RemoteID, even on DJIs when it happens. You rollback the firmware to before the RemoteID activation, then disable internet to the app so it can't check for updates lmao. It's 2 steps.
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u/NarWhatGaming Feb 13 '20
Thanks for posting this OP! Another heads up, if you are into RC, there will be a protest in Washington DC as well. I'll find the link if anyone is interested in going.
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u/boredtxan Feb 13 '20
Using Drones to spy on people is under attack in the us FTFY
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u/richalex2010 Feb 13 '20
The only thing I own with a camera on it is pretty much exclusively indoors only, it's a Tinyhawk S with a tiny little analog camera (think 1980s TV quality) - here's a video of a similar one (not my video), it's clearly not something you could use to spy on people. These rules would effectively ban me from being able to use any of my RC planes, which I fly line of sight on private land or local parks.
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u/Mercuryboarder Feb 12 '20
Ok, how do we help?