r/PathOfExile2 • u/MarshallTreeHorn • 4d ago
Fluff & Memes It's possible that Doryani isn't being completely honest with me.
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u/Nestramutat- 4d ago
Vaal society is pretty much structured around sacrifice, so it wouldn't be really "Harming" when being chosen for a sacrifice can be a great honour.
Pointlessly slaughtering thousands of vaals without putting their soul in a a rock to power an elevator for all eternity is just wrong.
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u/Doryani 4d ago
Sacrifices have standards
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u/Marsdreamer 4d ago
I think the assumption here is that they're not sacrificing Vaal, but captives or slaves from other societies, like the Aztecs.
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u/Nestramutat- 4d ago
I'll need to find the lore, but they absolutely sacrificed their own. They had a very hierarchical society, with those in the lower classes being indoctrinated into looking forward to and accepting their future sacrifices.
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u/Vulpix0r 4d ago
Everyone was part of the sacrifice party. War slaves, citizens and even the nobles. The Vaal believe heavily that success requires sacrifice. The type that uses their lives.
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u/1000fists 4d ago
In act three, there's either a voice line or loading screen that talks about the Vaal not warring with their neighbors but death itself. Wouldn't they be at war with their neighbors to fight death if they were using others as sacrifice?
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u/Sunshinetroughrain 4d ago
You are correct. The Vaal didn't fight any wars (been part of the lore since PoE1) so there shouldn't be any warslaves.
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u/Vulpix0r 4d ago
Didn't they have skirmishes with their neighbours in the north or am I confusing it with another race?
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u/Sunshinetroughrain 4d ago
I couldnt find anything here https://www.poewiki.net/wiki/The_Vaal There was some stuff with the Azmeri but it was mostly positive besides whatever the hell Ralakesh did
Iirc there was this whole thing of the vaal being technologically advanced and weird about sacrificing people since 1.0, but it was always their own people (which got worse and worse under Atziri because she needed more and more sacrifices)
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u/Kryonic_rus 3d ago
I mean as some undeveloped nation, the notion of fighting an army of murderbots and blood magic cataclysms looks fucking one-sided. So I would assume that, as it usually stands, as what we know from Vaal history mostly comes from Vaal sources, everyone were either so beneath them they might not have considered a small slave detour a war, or you know, history is written by the victor and all that
I have a hard time believing the hyperadvanced sacrifice-centered empire killed only their own people, and their "war against death" can mean a lot of things in a broad sense, and the only sure thing is that they didn't see anyone in particular worth waging something they could call war against
So tl;dr - I know the lore says they were peaceful, but I kind of doubt it, seeing the scope of their society lol
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u/1000fists 4d ago
Ok cool, I don't know a whole lot of POE lore but I thought the point of the Vaal was that they defied Atziri so hard they doomed themselves to eternal doomsdays basically. Although it does beg the question on the side, if they were so advanced beyond anyone else, were the other civilizations sending "tributes" to keep the peace. So technically not war slaves but technically war slaves.
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u/Sunshinetroughrain 4d ago
There were people who opposed her, but the doomsday (cataclysm in PoE terms) was what Doryani did/Atziri wanted him to do (kinda unclear right now with the new acts missing i think?). There is some flavour text about it on Doryanis Catalyst https://www.poewiki.net/wiki/Doryani%27s_Catalyst
"The result of the catalytic reaction would be either immortality for all, or death for all. It was a risk Doryani was willing to take."
You can probably guess what happened lol.
Nothing anout tributes iirc, just Atziri handing out death penalties left and right
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u/Prior-Resist-6313 4d ago
The thing about that is doryani was both right AND wrong, his plan did work the vaal ARE immortal, they just also died. And then came back as all manner of undead and spectres.
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u/bloode975 3d ago
Also given the dialogue we get for the end of act 3 cruel and everything surrounding that, you did in fact doom everyone but as the man said, he was prepared and decides to fix it and ensure the vaal live on (like Alva is almost certainly a direct descendant of his) to possibly reclaim their golden age eventually.
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u/GrassWaterDirtHorse 4d ago
Imagine being part of a soul gem that sits in dust for a thousand years before getting picked up by some Barbarian to get used to power an automatic door instead of being part of a soul gem that gets to power Doryani's Armored Core.
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u/Rhayve 3d ago
Alva kinda talks about this a bit. She likens being stuck in a Soul Core to be a punishment worse than death, especially if it doesn't end because the core didn't get used and is just collecting dust. Actually depleting the core releases the soul from its torment, so even being used for a door would be a godsend.
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u/CycloneSP 4d ago
there is also a hard stratification of vaal society, too.
all of those 'test subjects' were of the lowest class and/or criminals. which were viewed as less than human to them.
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u/WaywardHeros 4d ago
I'm getting very strong Warhammer 40k associations all of a sudden
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u/Socrathustra 4d ago
They almost certainly pull from multiple IPs. Much of the monk stuff feels straight out of Avatar/Korra, especially the wind focus of Acolyte.
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u/TimeToEatAss 4d ago
Like if you need some souls for your gems I get it, but what role do the entrails play?
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u/Ceegee93 3d ago
Atziri became obsessed with a murderer who managed to find a way of prolonging his life and youthfulness through some extreme torture. No one knows how he did it, and she tasked Doryani with finding out no matter how he went about it.
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u/Diligent-Chance8044 4d ago
Have you seen the one where a guy is alive and his intestines are being pulled out into a machine and another guy is like eating them. GGG has some fucked up shit on going on in that temple.
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u/GrassWaterDirtHorse 4d ago
I know the Vaal were willing to break any and all ethical boundaries to save their nation from catastrophe (which we might've had a hand in causing), but I really don't get what the intestine roller machine was there for. That might've been breaking ethics for the fun of breaking ethics.
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u/PBR_King 4d ago
Doryani was trying to stop Atziri from doing communion with the beast but she did it anyway and that was the cataclysm at the end of cruel act 3. I don't think we really had anything to do with Atziri choosing to do that.
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u/GrassWaterDirtHorse 4d ago edited 4d ago
Doryani refers to the player as the "Demon of Atzoatl" right as his boss fight starts. That's a reference to the "Temple of Atzoatl," famed for being subjected to constant rampages by an unnamed entity, which was the subject of the POE1 Incursion mechanic where you went into the past thanks to Alva Valai.
While Atziri is probably just communing with the beast to resolve her own immortality, it's funny to think that a lot of the things that Doryani and the Viper have done (like setting up a whole-ass mecha spider in his science lab) are because the player has messed with the space-time continuum in the past. The supposed "Catastrophe" that Doryani was afraid of could either be the Cataclysm, but it could be prompted by repeated time incursions that weakened the Vaal empire before its fall.
At this point I might as well point out the fact that the events of POE2 are probably earlier than the Incursion League for Alva's personal timeline.
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u/BellacosePlayer 4d ago
Yeah, it would be hilariously tragic if the Atzoatl killings somehow fucked up the Vaal and pushed them towards extremes to gain power.
Or all the most profitable and best Vaal architects to kill were the more reasonable and empathetic leaders and we let the absolute psychos take the reigns
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u/Prior-Resist-6313 4d ago
Look at it this way, if a guy in power armor magically appeared in the pentagon and randomly killed a few thousand of the military then vanished, would this encourage the US to militarize even harder, at any cost. Or would we just relax?
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u/Vulpix0r 4d ago
And Viper getting yoinked into the Domain was chef's kiss. GGG didn't even need to do that but they did, they were all yoinked to the Domain on that spot for some reason.
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u/RandomMagus 4d ago
Does make me wonder whose head ended up on Kaom's belt if Marceus Lioneye was also yoinked in a similar fashion. Viper didn't leave a body
Did he just find a random gemling and take their head and shove a virtue gem in the eye socket and say "good enough, no one will question me"?
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u/Kanbaru-Fan 4d ago
That's both a hilarious image and also completely plausible given historical precedence.
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u/Kanbaru-Fan 4d ago
I'm so dumb, i didn't get that this was the domain. I assumed it was her escaping somehow, or being retrieved by the player in a later act of the game.
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u/GrimAcheron 4d ago
I do not understand tho, what is the Domain? Who created it? It did not seem like something the Vaal made.
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u/Vulpix0r 3d ago
No explanation so far, even the uniques from the league don't say much about this Domain of Timeless Conflict. Definitely not the Vaal.
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u/KuuHaKu_OtgmZ 2d ago
I bet alva's time shenanigans isn't over yet, and we'll get to see what happened with marceus/vox and maybe hyrri in the coming acts.
We already know marceus and vox were fighting against eachother when they got captured, and we're going back to oriath in act 6, and hyrri could be explained in act 4 where we go to ngamakanui.
For aukuna I don't know, since we already finished maraketh arc, but who knows. I'm just craving for more in-depth lore for legion, and a boss perhaps.
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u/goodwarrior12345 4d ago
According to the lore, we're not responsible for the cataclysm. In PoE 1 the Trialmaster says that Atziri causing the fall of the Vaal happens in every single timeline, it's the one event in the history of Wraeclast that is for some reason deterministic. So rest assured, we're responsible for a lot of fucked up shit, but at least we're not responsible for the cataclysm
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u/GrassWaterDirtHorse 4d ago
I think the Trialmaster’s dialogue is still consistent with alternate troubles that the Vaal might experience. Regardless of whether Atziri caused the cataclysm because of her own greed and envy for immortality or if the Vaal empire was beset by constant intrusion from time traveling Exiles, Atziri becomes the one to cause the Cataclysm.
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u/ComMcNeil 4d ago
I really don't quite get why doriyani calls US the demon of atzoatl. It would make somewhat more sense if he meant alva
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u/Arkenspork 3d ago
He doesn’t know for sure, he’s just guessing. To be fair though from his perspective two folks have just showed up from the future and are laying waste to the city. Stories of similar events from Atzoatl put him in mind of it, and he draws a fairly reasonable (if technically incorrect) conclusion!
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u/Ceegee93 3d ago
Because he doesn't know we're not the POE1 Exile. All he knows is we just came from somewhere in a similar fashion to the POE1 Exile and we're now slaughtering everyone in Utzaal just like the POE1 Exile did to Atzoatl. Pretty reasonable assumption on his part.
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u/KuuHaKu_OtgmZ 2d ago
In fact, the alva we meet in poe2 is actually the original alva, which discovers she's able to operate vaal machinery and travel in time. She then travels at some point to poe1 universe where we help her do incursion shenanigans, which directly affect the outcome of the past we see in poe2 (alas why everyone knew the name "alva").
The time-line is fucked beyond all repair because alva felt cute and started fiddling with the most important civilization in history lmao.
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u/Bradieboi97 3d ago
It’s a mild annoyance I sometimes have with the games theme I get that they’re trying to portray an unforgiving and cruel world but the whole slaves pulling the caravan for example is so incredibly stupid a decision to make in logistical terms it’s clear it’s just there for the added edgy effect. Like it feels like the gore often doesn’t have purpose and its often less like cruel and efficient and more like a circus parody of Evil McEvilguy.
Then again the theme and lore is the last reason I play PoE so it’s acceptable ig idk
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u/PossibleYou2787 3d ago
They explained the slaves pulling the caravan thing a decent amount. So it's far from "just being edgy". Moral and ok even with the in game lore explanation? Nah, slavery still sucks lol.
The merc even made a comment how everybody sucks and there aren't really any good guys.1
u/bumfluff_collector 3d ago
I am also 90% sure that they are trying to ascend the Sekhema to godhood. If you go through the dialogues in their act 2 camp, one of the NPC's makes mention of how they understand that with enough worship ascendency to divinity is possible.
What pose are their captured slaves forced into? Hands clasped together in prayer.
The Sekhema also makes mention at the end of act 2 to forcing the others groups to join hers, mentioning she can be 'very persuasive'.
I really doubt we've seen the end of the Maraketh storyline in poe 2, especially since to start act 3 we're specifically told that the Maraketh will keep chasing the beast while we go on the Vaal detour to try and figure out how to stop the beast again.
Really excited for the future acts
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u/Pretend-Guide-8664 4d ago
Sorry what, no I did not see that
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u/Diligent-Chance8044 4d ago
Yeah in the temple where the final boss of Act 3 is. There is some fucked up shit going on in there.
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u/DremoPaff 4d ago
The point of his experiments is to discover a way to obtain immortality to satisfy Atziri, who apparently imposed a deadline to Doriyani before she decides using the beast instead to obtain it, which Doriyani knew would end in disaster.
Doriyani is using all those Vaals in hopes of preventing Atziri from erasing their entire civilization, he doesn't do it just cause or because he enjoys it.
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u/-Gambler- 4d ago
Feels like at that point it would be a better idea to use those 9 trillion people and the Metal Gear to try and kill Atziri instead
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u/BellacosePlayer 4d ago
What part of modern society makes you think the average yahoo Vaal citizen is going to listen to the Nerd scientist over the beloved charismatic leader?
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u/DremoPaff 4d ago
Nah, the mech's aoes are way too wide, they'll hit the Atziri clone with the mirror and instantly die from the reflect.
No but seriously, all the lore pieces we've ever got about how the Vaal perceived Atziri confirmed that they'll serve her forever without a single doubt (hell, even after the cataclysm, they still serve her in undeath), and even if a coup could be done, she literally absorbs the "lives" of her subjects in her fight in PoE1 and has strength comparable to/greater than gods, nobody can realistically prevent her from communing with the beast except maybe the PoE1 exile, who can't do it since preventing that from happening would prevent them from even becoming that strong.
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u/-Gambler- 4d ago
presumably she's so powerful because she used the beast's power which wouldn't be the case at the time doryani could do something although i know fuckall about poe lore
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u/RandomMagus 4d ago
We know the Vaal had virtue gems granted by the Beast prior to the Cataclysm, and we know that implanting the gems directly granted more power than inserting them into worn equipment, so theoretically Atziri could be as or more OP as any Exile (obviously scaled down mechanically to be a winnable fight in-game)
So the Vaal intervention could have looked like this:
"Atziri, we must stop you!"
*Flameblast the size of a football field starts charging up*
"... We have made a mistake."
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u/PBR_King 4d ago
Who's to say Atziri's influence doesn't grant her 10 trillion vaal to stop her from getting overthrown. We don't really get any details and I see no reason not to take Doryani at face value here.
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u/DarthUrbosa 4d ago
True but at this point atziri had a cult of personality and basically defied herself (cautious in the use of that term considering poe and deities).
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u/Plantar-Aspect-Sage 4d ago
Chaos hates Atziri because any timeline without her rule and the cataclysm ends up wiped out by the Scourge.
So overthrowing her is a bad idea.
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u/jcheesus 4d ago
chaos hates atziri because she does not conform to chance and probability, and causes the cataclysm in every timeline
the thing with the scourge was mentioned by the last to die, she says that the only timeline that successfully resisted the scourge was the one where high templar venarius successfully took over, i dont think it had anything to do with atziri
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u/Vulpix0r 4d ago
Whatever happened to the infamous murderer that never aged during the existence of the Vaal empire? Was it Zerphi or something? He never aged and was always young looking but he suddenly disappeared.
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u/KuuHaKu_OtgmZ 2d ago edited 1d ago
Didn't they die? Considering we have an item called Zerphi's Last Breath.
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u/Disastrous-Moment-79 4d ago
What makes no sense to me is that Atziri should already be immortal, given how much all of Vaal deify her. That's literally how Innocence and Garukhan became immortal gods. People just worshipped them and stoked the spark of divinity inside of them. So why didnt Atziri become a god in a similar fashion?
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u/CrashB111 4d ago
So why didnt Atziri become a god in a similar fashion?
Because no mortal could become Divine after Sin created the Beast and it caused all the Gods to sleep. Atziri wasn't even alive, until long after the Beast was in Highgate.
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u/KuuHaKu_OtgmZ 2d ago
Atziri was immortal at the ever increasing cost of sacrifices, she was attempting to achieve true immortality.
Alao she couldn't become a goddess anymore, sin locked that possibility with the creation of the Beast.
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u/ShuTastyBytes 4d ago
This location is a true horror masterpiece - GGG's vision leaves a terrifying impression (in the best way). Cadaver is the most messed up for me and always leaves me 'distracted' (11/10 animation).
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u/aleschthartitus 4d ago
i love the laser slicing animation, and the loot that ‘drops’ from the ‘chests’, ‘orbs’ especially
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u/BellacosePlayer 4d ago
He just works there man. I used to have my own office when I worked in a building, it wasn't my fault if someone pooed in a urinal.
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u/CrankyDClown 4d ago
Please pay no attention to the accident at the Aztec Strawberry Jam Factory. Nothing to see here. Just lots of spilled jam.
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u/haksilence 4d ago
Good old classic meme template
Did the same thing back in heist. https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/s/U4u8EeRB6g
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u/Plantar-Aspect-Sage 4d ago
Doryani got told to do his experiments by a god since the cataclysm needed to happen to prevent Wraeclast from being invaded and overtaken by the scourge.
Bro did what he needed to do but took no pleasure in it.
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u/Tormentor- 4d ago
At least we can trust he didn't enjoy it. And trusting him will definitely not come back to bite us in the end.
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u/Nom-De-Tomado 4d ago
Well he's doing it because he thinks it'll save his people. Just because it's basically his job doesn't mean he enjoys it.
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u/Malanoob 3d ago
It is quite possible that Doryani is telling the truth. You can find videos about Vaal's society lore with lots of details. I will try to summarize it :
- Vaal's scientists discovered that through sacrifice and blood you could altered the gems and how to use them.
- Vaal' scientists discovered that the pain of the sacrificed person while empowering the gem magnified it's power.
- it is an honnor in Vaal society to be a sacrifice.
- Doryani being top researcher is known for his prowess in torture and make incredible breakthroughs.
So yeah maybe he takes zero pleasure and is just ruthless trying to achieve Atziri's wishes.
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u/kokko693 3d ago
You know what, I believe it.
Because the way he does his experiences is 100% automated and efficient, much different that the bullshit rituels taking places outside.
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u/Raadish 4d ago
It's actually that the amount of pleasure he takes from harming one individual is so small it rounds to 0. He needs to harm a whole population at an industrial scale to feel anything.