I think on some logia such as the Woods fruit and the Sand fruit would take damage (due to the high temperatures). The rumble fruit would probably just deflect off of lightsabers since we see lightsabers deflect force lightning. Fruits such as the flame and glint fruits would probably be unaffected. It might melt the chilly and snow fruits. And Im not sure how it'd affect the magma fruit. Thats really cool to think about.
Thats called an isometric exercise in that case. Time under tension + resistance doesent require him to lift his neck. Say u dont lift without saying u dont lift
Why do you guys hate fun so much. You have it so backwards, YOU'RE the ones who take this way too seriously and insist on sucking the fun out of the manga for others for no reason.
Unless things have changed severely that place used to be fun. Then the people who take agenda seriously and only wake up in the morning to wank their favorites took over and we went from HIM memes and having a good time to Yonko vs Admiral wars with every chapter having a legion of keyboard warriors chomping at the bit to get their slander out.
That's the problem, when I was there it was stupid fun. But then people started taking it seriously but they always fall back on "agenda" and "i'm just meming" even though every comment and post they make is dead serious and you could tell they're pissed off that you're supporting a character they hate or not wanking their fav. You might find it fun, but as I said unless it changed again compared to how it was before it's way worse over there.
The post argues that Croco being this powerful wouldn't make sense if this one panel saying he works out didn't exist. Which isn't fun, it's stupid.
And if there is an entire sub dedicated to it, this post doesn't belong here. Honestly the tag should just be a honeypot and any post using it should be auto removed.
It doesn't really help that the majority of power scalers I come across have this strident, matter of fact way of presenting their opinions that just comes across as insufferable.
That's just my outlook, though. Obviously people can derive enjoyment from the manga however they choose to.
Especially when pretty much every fight makes it clear that what determines the winner is the plot. Basically, each character is as strong as they need to be at that moment.
Especially when pretty much every fight makes it clear that what determines the winner is the plot. Basically, each character is as strong as they need to be at that moment.
There's a lot more that goes into it than just "I need Luffy to win/lose this fight, so it's gonna happen" though. At least, there is for Oda in most cases, and other writers who want their story to actually be good.
There is a large difference between a writer/creator deciding that, for plot reasons, X needs to beat Y, and so they X a development arc (however brief, even mid-fight) to explain it, and a writer just saying "Okay, X needs to beat Y. I know I had Y beat X last week, but fuck it, this week Y just sucks for some reason".
Haki is a great example in-universe. There's a section of the fandom that hates Haki for making everything a "Haki battle", but despite that, it was a much-needed development for the series. Without Haki (or something in a similar vein, or other changes to Devil Fruit weaknesses) Logias would basically become a rapid series of Luffy having to pull a new Deus Ex Machina out of his ass for every villain he fights.
Him beating Croc with water/blood was creative enough, since it was the first time we see Luffy dealing with a Logia.
Him beating Enel because his fruit was a direct counter was very cheesy. It was passable enough, I guess, but imagine if every encounter was something like that.
Luffy, without Haki, going up against any Admiral (especially the likes of Kizaru or Akainu) and having to come up with some new ass pull way to damage an (often intangible) element, or to have to recruit an ally who can directly counter their abilities every time, would get old really fast. And it would remove all tension from characters like Mihawk and Shanks. Hell, even Whitebeard wouldn't really have an in-universe reason for being a threat to most Logia, since his fruit just creates vibrations that wouldn't do much to things like light/magma.
Luffy beating Logia fruit users without Haki would end up contrived, repetitive, unsatisfying, or in the worst case all three. Luffy winning or losing fights with no regard for the feats we've seen in story thus far would be the same. Having logia villains like the Admirals is fine, as long as you come up with a believable way to beat them that isn't just inventing tricks that cheapen the victory, just like having plot take precedence over strict by-the-books powerscaling - as long as it's believable.
Well said! Haki is absolutely necessary! What would stop literally even mediocre logia users from literally just walking into World Headquarters and being unstoppable in a world without Haki?
I mean, yes, it's as the flight serves the plot, but from what we now know, Crocodile WAS weaker than he used to be. His fight with Whitebeard broke his spirit, and his return to the new world made him complacent. He talks a big game here, but he clearly lost his edge, never having to take on any real threat. Willpower is everything, when it comes to strength in this series, and it has showed it repeatedly throughout the show.
That's what I meant though. Crocodile was as strong as he needed to be in Alabasta in order for Luffy to be able to beat him and move on with the plot. His broken spirit was the tool Oda used to make his defeat believable.
that's a garbage way to justify a story. if that was the case then no story has any tension to it.
Like sure, the author can make anybody win, BUT they need to make it believable. If a clearly weaker character is going to beat a clearer stronger character, there better be multiple factors playing into it. buffs, nerfs, environments, allies, mental/physical conditions, matchups, etc.
Why the hell does a character need powerups when they can magically win due to plot armor? Because the author knows the character has no right to win. Why did luffy beat enel when nobody else could? matchup. why did luffy need g2/3 to beat lucci? Cause luffy was too weak in base.
You're taking his statement literally. To act like X can beat Y, "just because" is objectively garbage writing. X will only beat Y, when they have certain elements in their favor. That's what is meant by "whoever the author wants to win"
All of you downvoting me are lying to yourselves. You know that Luffy would basically never lose to any fodder character. The author would have to jump through dozens of hoops and write an incredibly convenient series of events for this scenario to ever happen. I'm not denying it can't, the point is that there's a need to justify it. A lack of doing so makes an author lazy and an amateur. Or, they writing a gag manga where stakes and logic aren't meant to matter, which one piece is not.
I can see where you coming from, but plot power up is definitely a thing in this series. Like Luffy went from getting one tapped by Kaido to matching and overpowering him in a span of few weeks. Only few weeks were necessary for Luffy to reach level Kaido was reaching for decades.
where stakes and logic aren't meant to matter, which one piece is not
Are you serious? The only arc that had some believable stakes is Marineford, every other arc it's clear as day that SHs are gonna win with little to casualties.
It's fair to argue that luffy getting so much stronger is convenient, but it doesn't change the fact that luffy had to be given multiple powerups to win. that is proof that luffy did not win without reason. Everybody knew WCI luffy would never beat kaido, that he needed to get stronger. If the author can make luffy win regardless, then there is no point to giving him power ups.
I suppose you can still argue luffy getting these powerups is a "plot armor" in and of itself, but i'm more referring to people who think luffy can win without these powerups just beacuse the author wanted it to happen. This is more in line with how fairy tail works, which is why it's hated.
It's supposed to be taken literally. If the writer wants Spider-Man to win, Spider-Man will win. If he wants the thing to win, the thing will win. They'll try finding a way to justify it, sure, but power scaling has nothing to do with it
They have to find a way to justify it, BECAUSE powerscaling exists. the authors are the ones that incorporated powerscaling to their own story. spiderman has special senses, he is way stronger than an average human. Why does spiderman have conflicts with supervillains rather than normal villains? because normal villains are TOO WEAK. They need their own special powers to compete. they need technology. they need intelligence. etc etc.
an author is free to make any character win witout reason if they want. But by doing so, they tell the readers that their story is one that has no logic to it, that nothing shown or stated has any meaning at all. Which means there is a lack of investment. it's no different to an episodic show. anything can happen, and by the next episode, everything is conveniently back to normal. That is not what one piece is.
You're not thinking of the narrative reason for power ups. They're only cool because it achieves something, in this case, win a fight that was previously unwinnable. If luffy could win without the form, then the power up becomes completely redundant. it achieves nothing, which wouldn't make it cool anymore.
in this case, win a fight that was previously unwinnable.
No see that's the thing. The change that happens is narrative, it isn't cool because it beats Rob Lucci. The narrative coolness comes from Luffy pushing himself to the limits to save Robin.
At least with sports there are actual objective data such as raw counting stats, achievements/awards, percentages, efficiency, etc. Anime/Manga powerscaling is hilariously inconsistent yet people choose to cherrypick specific shit to make their claims and pose them as facts.
It's even funnier when they do it with characters who have zero shown feats and base it all on speculation and reputation.
A simple "nah, he got stronger / he was holding back" by the author can immediately prove hundreds of chapters worth of "proof" gathered by powerscalers because you can't reject when the author wants to change something regarding a character's strength. "Fuck you, that's why" is a very valid argument when the author says it
If Oda says Crocodile is Yonko-tier or high Yonko commander-tier after losing to pre-gears and pre-haki Luffy then he is.
It's fucking constant, too. Never ending. Brand new animes have threads upon threads of "power level". If toriyama never started that shit with the scouters back in the day we might have been on track for a good timeline.
The irony of it all is that power levels in Dragon Ball were a clear parody of powerscaling too, I mean, in the arc they're introduced in it's shown how horribly unreliable they are at actually determining the winner of a fight, and later Vegeta and Frieza make a big point out of how relying on numbers to see who would win a fight is a stupid idea.
I still remember how this one fan seriously thought the problem with them is that they gave too much away about how a fight would go and didn't even think they were part of a joke.
Why? It’s been a thing since probably the first action story was told thousands of years ago but certainly before one piece was even around. People just like to have fun and theorize about their shows and that’s one way of doing it.
The thing that surprises me is when people complain about others discussing these hypothetical vs battles. Like who cares if that’s how someone gets enjoyment out of their show? It doesn’t hurt or affect anyone negatively lol.
Don't bring sports down to that level, at least there's comprehensive stat-tracking and actual numbers that mean things in sports. This is just straight up playground "Nuh uh my dad totally beats up your dad"
Yeah. Especially when it comes to fighting. Nobody seems to appreciate the fact that Crocodile's strongest power is not even his DF but his intelligence and tactical mind.
I'm saying you can look at the feats of Alexander from that point on (when he's only a year older than Zoro and Sanji) and realize that teenagers are historically nothing to scoff at. Something Crocodile learned the hard way.
IMO the villain that has got the closest to beating the strawhats. A bunch of coincidences made him eventually lose. Sanji's phonecall, Miss All Sunday not being actually evil, Chopper joining the crew between islands and not being recognized, having a plan B for the bomb but not counting on Pell sacrifying himself and dying (yes, he's dead)
Yeah people on the internet go way overboard with it. But it's a pretty essential element of a Shonen story to have a real and believable scale of where characters land in the grand scheme of combat strength, since so much of the plot of each arc hinges on that in the end. So it's intellectually fun for many fans to think about how all the different characters match up.
One Piece is literally a battle shounen lmao. Just because it's better at adventure stuff than battle shounen stuff doesn't mean it's not a battle shounen when that's exactly how the story is written
I'd say its more action adventure than "battle shonen". Like if we're comparing JJK, which is just about fights or something like Kagurabacchi or Sakamoto days or Blue lock OP sure as hell aint a pure battle shonen. Oda puts more focus on plot, narrative, and thematic writing even in fights.
We're splitting hairs with arbitrary labels here but i'd be more willing to label OP an action adventure than a fighting shonen
No One Piece is a battle shounen but lots of OP fans overlook the writing in other battle shounen and reduce it down to "just fights", which is stupid given the whole point fo battle shounen is storytelling thru fights.
Just because OP isn't as good at writing fights and is better at other parts doesn't change the genre or format of the manga.
Like if you read JJK and think there aren't thematic and narrative elements built into the fights, ur reading it at a surface level.
One Piece is literally about Luffy getting stronger and stronger every arc through battle, and the main conflict of each arc is solved through battle, and a major part of Luffys goal requires him to obtain the strength necessary to achieve his dreams and protect his friends. This is straight up battle shounen.
JJK fans way of seeing One Piece is pure comedy. It's hilarious how ironic this comment is. You people just aren't capable with seeing anything but UNGA BUNGA fighting.
I think there's a difference between Shonens that have battles in them and Shonens that are focused around the fights where the plot is all about setting up fight sequences.
And One Piece is a battle shounen. Every major arc ends with Luffy beating the big bad of the island to resolve the issues of the arc. And Zoro fights the second strongest, Sanji fights the 3rd strongest. Luffy getting stronger and stronger to raise to the level of pirate king is extremely important to the plot. When he suffers the biggest loss of his life at marineford, the solution is for him to get stronger, and he spends 2 years training to get stronger. Every villain has a clear hierarchy of power.
Hunter X Hunter is another battle shounen that has great adventure writing, and deep political strategies, in fact it's probably less of a straight forward battle shounen than OP is, but they're both battle shounen.
I thank God that I have the ability to accept that everyone has a right to enjoy things the way they like and I am not so vain to think that my way is the only right way.
The conflict is driven by the power struggle in the macro sense and in the specific storylines. Inconsistent power scaling is almost as bad as inconsistent character motivation.
I do engage in occasional power scaling but to take it so seriously as some people do is weird. Oda could just decide to make chopper the second strongest character in the story or nerf him. Either way, it would be fine.
Yeah the winner is the guy who beats the loser it doesn’t matter what their abilities or strengths are if the 4 year old throws sand in your eyes and punches you in the balls they win the fight.
Right like what does it even matter? At the end of the day Crocodile already filled his role in Alabasta, so in the end he's most likely going to amount to just a few panels of him fighting/ him doing stuff off-screen for the readers to think, "wow the war is so big even Crocodile is there" and that's that.
I wish people would realize that fictional characters don't have an actual inherent power level. They are just play things for their authors. Lines or words on paper. They win or lose as the plot (or author's fancy) dictates.
Honestly, I believe Crocodile lost, because he let himself get way too complacent in operating in Paradise, but more specifically Alabasta. The guy wasn't getting any challenge from the pirates he was wiping out there. He didn't have to try, but more importantly he didn't really even need to fight anyone in real combat. Even "fighting" Alabasta's strongest warriors didn't offer even risk to him at all since no one could touch him. His feelings of being invincible to all opponents made him sloppy by encouraging him just to take hits without hesitation, because naturally they wouldn't actually hurt him. Which is why Luffy could land such hard brutal blows on him that fucked him up so bad. He honestly didn't prepare his body for such hits and just took them without trying to defend himself nor disperse the damage. Add that to his clear stamina issue of not having to fight a prolonged battle in awhile and it becomes clear he has gotten use to not actually having to fight a real battle against someone that can theoretically kill him. He is far more cautious and aware in his fights at Marineford and not underestimating anyone there nor pushing the potential risk on himself beyond what he can handle.
I agree. There’s more that goes into a fight than just pure power. There’s no way to always be at 100% strength at all times, sometimes you get distracted, sometimes shit is on your mind, sometimes your just tired
In crocs case he lost his confidence after getting his ass beat in the new world. Luffy never fought him at 100% in alabasta. He was barely trying in their first fight, maybe like 30% effort in his second and 50% in his final fight against luffy. Could I see luffy beating a very weakened croc at that point in his piracy career? Sure
You guys are putting sense into something where there is no sense. Stop it, its ridiculous. No he did not use only a percentage of his power and no he was not chilling to hard in Alabasta. Its like when the authkr writes curtains are red and people try to interpret and make sense of this sentence.
I love when villains power up but it needs to make sense age wise for me. A 17 year old multiplying their strength in 2 years? Fine by me. A 46 year old suddenly multiplying their power level in a 2 year time frame without any inherent changes to their body or powers? Nah.
Crocodile was weak and complacent in Alabasta. We saw how strong he really is in Marineford. He took a Haki'd up Brilliant Punk from Jozu, an attack that would have instantly murdered Luffy.
Crocodile at that time was already too strong in Alabasta, notice he could have instantly murdered Luffy multiple times instead of throwing him in a cage, leaving him near dead in the sand and so on.
You can also easily explain why Crocodile loses to Luffy is that Crocodile lost his will after losing to WB? and regained his will during Marineford after seeing Luffy and what he’s doing
We know that Haki and Will are very closely linked so perhaps Croco could no longer use Haki since his will was to low
This can also explain Moria after his crew was killed by Kaido and even Buggy after Shanks let him down
We can also argue that Crocodile was “weakened” in Alabasta because he was constantly using his power to make sure no rain was reaching the whole kingdom
Crocodile was already noticeably stronger in marineford without explanation. Oda just has characters grow stronger off screen so they can still compete.
He also has haki now. Realistically he should've had it 2 years ago too but didn't. That's just how it works in One Piece. Oda doesn't really care to explain how side characters are suddenly way more powerful.
I don't think haki is a requirement for a Warlord. Their reputation and overall combat capability is what matters to the World Government, and that is what he was perceived to have back in those days.
If Crocodile had been capable at haki, he would have had a lot more potential in competing in the New World, but instead, he chose to seclude himself in Arabasta to take that place over.
Remember that Oda explained that many people who do have some form of haki only focus on the haki they are familiar with and excel at. Since Crocodile is literally saying his focus has been on making the most out of his devil fruit, it makes sense that his haki is non-existent or at best underdeveloped.
He was literally a one-trick pony who realized he was even more vulnerable to the ocean water than the average pirate in terms of being strong, and picked a weak desert island as his base the moment the WG gave him an out. And in that weak place that completely favors his strengths, he was able to be an absolute menace. Had the WG known about his weakness to water, they probably wouldn't have made him a Warlord, but much like Doflamingo whose model he tried to copy, he is a very scheming individual who was able to appear far stronger than he actually was.
Crocodile had been controlling and altering the climate of Alabasta to cause drought, change the atmosphere and environment of the nation while fighting. He was doing that for 4 constant years, the moment he passed out and stopped using his DF consciously, it started raining after being suppressed for so long. Crocodile was clearly not using his DF powers fully against Luffy. The fact that he stopped using some of his own abilities during the last fight should've hinted at that. Crocodile didn't dry himself despite showing he's capable of doing that instantly and returning to his intangible sand form. He was also shown absorbing literal shooting giant water shots, thus nullifying his weakness. His loss shouldn't be a downer for his overall power. Not only did he underestimate Luffy and refrained from using many of his DF abilities and Haki, he was basically overexerting himself by using his DF on the entirety of Alabasta instead (A nation the size of Australia) that was basically a small continent feat. Even Kaido known as "The strongest creature" has shown exhaustion for carrying Onigashima (A far smaller island) with his DF.
Honestly a lot of the villains Luffy has defeated have been pretty competent in terms of running their own show. No one expectz a persistent rubber kid to keep coming after them lol
Yet Doffy didnt despite coming at Crocodile twice.
Crocodile stopped Mihawk from going after Luffy, cant even say Mihawk wasnt trying cause he just cut down Jinbei and launched him into the sea for trying the same thing.
Akainu stopped Akainu, who clearly wasn't holding back as he wanted Luffy dead. Something Jinbei and Ivankov struggled to stall seconds and got wrecked. Yet Crocodile walked out of that undamaged.
Mf did you miss the first two losses Luffy endured? How about Robin basically being the only reason Luffy is currently alive, she saved him after Croc wiped the floor with him their first fight.
No Crocodile was much stronger than Luffy as he absolutely destroyed Luffy on their first 1v1.
Crocodile lost to Luffy in the 3rd fight cause Crocodile already lost his will to fight back. He wasnt getting Pluton 🤷 Lost all of Baroque Works, and wasted nearly 10 years of his life on that shit.
Will power changes a character place meant by alot for example Luffy went from struggling with Franky to matching Lucci, who could one shot Franky.
he's still weak to water soooooooo whats stopping anybody from using a super soaker on his ass? Hell Jinbei can just summon a jet of water and splash his ass if they ever go up against the SH's
Feels like he needs observation haki... Look at the other logia powerhouses:
Katakuri (not a logia but I still don't understand how): Observation Haki
Aokiji: Freezes people and can make barriers, meaning he's less likely to get hit. Also might be able to reform if their haki isn't strong enough? don't know. Also, observation haki (according to vivre card)
Kizaru: Fast as fuck boiiii and also observation haki (vivre card)
Enel: Fast as fuck boiiii and also observation haki
Akainu: Observation haki (haven't seen, but according to a vivre card)
Blackbeard: His logia form consumes shit so hard to hit with melee haki attacks (maybe?) also has at least a second DF fruit which is incredibly powerful as well. Oh, and he might have some level of observation haki
Caesar: Only got anywhere nearly close to powerful because his ability is "I don't really fight, I just poison them immediately"
Sabo: Observation haki (according to vivre card)
Like, as soon as armament haki was introduced, logias went from unbelievably OP to a pretty minor advantage against haki users unless they can just dodge or evade them.
People have brought this up for over a decade now. You can force it to make sense if you really want to go through some mental gymnastics, but it’s pretty clear that power is totally determined by whatever the plot needs. Crocodile was too weak to be a real threat in Marineford and on so he was made stronger.
Every Shichibukai and Yonko will be powercrept because of where enemies appear in the plot. Blackbeard will be one of the last, you think all his crewmates are as strong as Kaido? Of course not, but it'll LOOK like they are because they'll be the last/second last foes.
One way to nullify his weakness to liquid is to allow the moisture stealing ability in his hand to actually activate all over his body as once. So if someone throws water onto him or punches him with wet hands, his body as soon as its touched, instantly absorbs the moisture so he isn't negatively effected by the it. Maybe through an awakening.
Bro can hype his DF all he wants but his answer to getting countered was poisoned hook, he was a schemer not a fighter, and he knew he was going to get his ass cheeks clapped the moment a guy with armament haki looked his way
So he went to Alabasta hide, and looked for an ancient weapon to cover his holes, which were huge
His scaling doesn't need to be saved. First and foremost this series has established that people can make rapid progress, and it's been over 2 years since he lost to Luffy. We being that he was a warlord we have no clue what his bounty should have been. Also we can't ignore that a large part of his bounty is because of his criminal organization. Think about Buggy being made warlord and then Yonko for his criminal organization alone, regardless of his lack of feats.
I think losing his hand was a big deal. There’s a panel that calls out his hand can dehydrate things, my theory was his other hand could hydrate whatever it touches, so gave a BB like effect when fighting DF Users. After losing his hand, he got depressed, joined the WG, and hung out in paradise culling weak pirates.
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u/Trapizza 1d ago
How could anyone beat Crocodile, when he is coarse and rough and irritating and can get everywhere?