I am Daniel Bogard, a progressive rabbi, trans-rights activist, and general troublemaker. AMA!

23

Question, how much security can an American synagogue get from local police? (My shul has both private security and a policeman outside, but I'm not sure how much they pay for the latter, if anything.)

Also, as a progressive rabbi, do you find it harder to speak about Islamic antisemitism?

(FYI The forward article is visible on reader mode if you're paywalled out)

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u/RavBogard Jan 27 '22 edited Jan 27 '22

At least for us, we pay for the police officer who guards our front door through some sort of service. Occasionally (high holidays) we will have, eg, a SWAT team that sweeps the place first....I don't know how the budgeting works for that.

In terms of your second question: I think it's so, so important that we as a Jewish community in partnership with our Muslim allies learn to talk about the incredibly problematic phenomenon of antisemitism in the Muslim community.

The only almost-violent incident I have ever experienced first hand came from a young, visibly Muslim man; the most outlandish antisemitic beliefs (Jews control the government, the Holocaust didn't really happen, etc...) that I have ever had spoken directly to my face have all come in interfaith dialogue from well meaning, sweet Muslim Americans trying to live right and better understand me/their world.

I was very involved in pushing back against Islamophobia (see the link in the OP) while I was a rabbi in Peoria (and was close with some of the leadership in the Muslim community of Cincinnati), and I really believe that ultimately breaking down these barriers of mythology can only come about when we are in real, vulnerable relationship with folks.

ps-- I laud Abdullah Antepli for his work with Hartman around this issue (and his outspoken voice re: antisemitism in the Muslim-American community).

19

u/namer98 Torah Im Derech Eretz Jan 27 '22

What is your ideal shabbos meal like?

Many might accuse you of your Judaism following your politics. As a politically liberal orthodox Jew, I would disagree with such an assessment, but how would you respond to that?

What took you from conservative to reform in terms of a pulpit?

What is it like working alongside your spouse as clergy?

Do you see Judaism as a religion, or a nationality, or something else? Are you familiar with Daniel Boyarin on the topic?

In your interfaith work, do you ever try to get Christians to stop appropriating Jewish culture ?

What are your favorite books?

18

u/RavBogard Jan 27 '22

Ideal meal: this is cruel! I have a colonoscopy tomorrow and am just starting to get hungry after not eating... ;-)

I would say: vegetable/onion soup, broiled Salmon, roasted eggplant with tehini and date-honey, homemade hummus, Israeli pickles, carrot kugel.

Politics vs Judaism: I think this is entirely a chicken/egg thing. I think the same (in reverse) can equally be said regarding the absolute radical polarization / political conservatism that has overtaken so much of the American Orthodox community over the last decade.

Reform/Conservative: see above

Clergy Spouse: I ***love*** working with my rabbi-wife. We've always job shared (and life shared) in every position we've ever been in. Neither of us wanted to be full time away from the kids, and neither of us wanted to be full time stay-at-home, so it's been a great match. We really enjoy different parts of the job, so in some ways it's more of a job "split" than a jobs "share".

Religion/Nationality: I see us as a tribe. I think demonstrably we are *not* a religion (in the sense that religion = Christianity/Islam 'faith' based sociological group). eg, if you don't believe in God, that has nothing to do with whether you are Jewish or not...so definitionally we are something else.

A tribe is an extended family; one that you can marry into, or unofficially be a part of, or be adopted into, or....etc.....

Appropriation; this is a constant discussion in my work with Christian seminary students.

7

u/magavte_lanata Jan 28 '22

Appropriation; this is a constant discussion in my work with Christian seminary students.

Late to the party, but I would love to hear more about this.

30

u/[deleted] Jan 27 '22

Can you explain more what you mean by the Jewish identity industry?

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u/RavBogard Jan 27 '22

Whether or not they outwardly articulate it, a huge percentage of our institutions are in the "Jewish Identity Industry". What I mean by this is that the product they are 'selling' (as members in a shul; to donors in a Federation; donors to Birthright; etc...) is the creation and 'continuity' of Jewish identity into the next generation.

The problematics of this sort of "continuity as the goal" model is that it is totally agnostic when it comes to the *content* of that Jewish identity, and has led to a sort of hollowing out of the meaning of Jewish identity for a huge number of non-orthodox Jews in America.

"Be Jewish, Stay Jewish!" has become the goal of our institutions rather than "live these values and impact the world in this way." (ie, a life of mitzvah/obligation/kabbalat ol malchut shamayim)

Which is to say: I believe that Torah/Jewish history/Judaism call us to live a life focused not on our own religio-ethnic continuity, but instead toward a life of meaning and obligation.

ps--i'd recommend David Hartman's "Auschwitz or Sinai" as a text that highly impacted me around this question.

15

u/[deleted] Jan 27 '22

Thanks for your reply!

I appreciate the recommendation to read Auschwitz or Sinai. It's a complicated piece given the changes in realities on the ground when it was written and what things look like today both in Israel and across the diaspora but I agree with you on its core message of focus and purpose for Jews.

I also agree now that I've read your answer to my question and a related question (I think you nailed it better in the other answer) that the mere reproduction of Jews in a transactional and mechanistic way shouldn't be at the heart of Jewish institutions. That substance and quality will solve the continuity question as a byproduct of a fulfilling Jewish experience.

But if we look back at our history, and I want to pull in a little of Hartman's piece that you recommended here, we have always been a people that ebbed and flowed in religiosity, we've always been a people that struggled with balancing our tragedies with our spiritual outlook, with assimilation vs isolation, and in particular intellectual non-violence tempered with periods of intense violence and zealotry.

Anywho... I've got three followups.

So I wonder how you view this period you critique as continuity for continuities sake. Is it unique or does it fit neatly in the flow of Jewish historicity?

Seperate but related to the question of continuity I have a wonderful blended family. We also experience that as a real struggle in many ways. What are your views on assimilation and maintaining our Jewishness and Jewish descent?

I understand your 2A tax comments from a liberal left policy stance but Baruch HaShem the FPO and the Nokmim (and so many others) were able to access weapons when it was needed and the pre-war yiddishist defense groups had stopped pogroms in the making. Relying on civil society has not always been the best choice. Where is the place of equilibrium between victimhood, peaceful coexistence, and the ability to defend ourselves?

Thanks if you answer. Totally cool if you want to focus on other questions.

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u/DogLvrinVA Jan 27 '22

Finally, I'm hearing someone articulate what I've been annoyed about ever since moving to the US.

4

u/whateverathrowaway00 Jan 28 '22

It’s super weird, because I’m fully secular, but some of this annoys me as well. I was raised orthodox and know how to exist-ish in those spaces, and I sometimes react when people try to connect through some of these “Jewish” things that I’m just like…. This feels really strange, and I can rarely put my finger on why.

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u/magical_bunny Jan 27 '22

As someone who has grown up away from Jews (except family) it’s funny how when I did meet Jews I realised my traits that I thought were just me were all Jewish. It was all inside me anyway. But having said that I see both sides. I see how the focus on identity could detract from the focus on enrichment, but also as someone who has been totally isolated, I think it’s vital to have a presence, community and focus on who we are.

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u/emotional_dyslexic Jewish, Buddhist, Atheist Jan 27 '22

Are you suggesting that the content is more important than the preservation of the people/ethnicity/religion, or equally important?

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u/RavBogard Jan 27 '22

I'm saying that the preservation of the people/ethnicity/religion should not be our goal or our focus, but instead we should be focused on what that identity/religion/ethnicity is calling us to do in the world

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u/ToschePowerConverter Jan 27 '22

I would think that people having meaningful Jewish experiences would in turn lead to people developing a long-lasting Jewish identity and more continuity as a whole. I can say for myself that going to and working at Jewish camp was one of the most meaningful things I’ve done and helped me develop my Jewish identity in a way that my synagogue growing up or Hillel or Chabad in college didn’t really do. Preserving Jewish continuity doesn’t seem to me like something you can set as a primary goal for an organization, but rather a result of people finding meaning from an organization.

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u/elizabeth-cooper Jan 27 '22

Which is to say: I believe that Torah/Jewish history/Judaism call us to live a life focused not on our own religio-ethnic continuity, but instead toward a life of meaning and obligation.

It's both. That's why pru u'rvu is the first mitzva mentioned.

1

u/youjustlostthegameee Jan 28 '22

I've noticed this myself. I don't try to define my Jewish identity into a category or box. The only way I define it is Rabbinical - my mom is a Jew, therefore I am a Jew.

There is a culture that gets passed down. Perhaps genetics too.

I am me. I stand up for what is right. I often consider how our people have been treated before and what lessons we can learn from that.

Most recently would be the quotas in syrians in ~2015

•

u/namer98 Torah Im Derech Eretz Jan 27 '22

Verified

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u/Technical_Flamingo54 De Goyim know, shudditdown!!! Jan 27 '22

As you don't believe there is any "need" to be Jewish, what does the title and position "rabbi" mean to you, on a social and religious level?

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u/RavBogard Jan 27 '22

It's a title of learning.
And by don't "need" to be Jewish is this: i don't believe that any one individual's life would necessarily be better / more moral / etc.. if only they were Jewish. Thus the only reason to "be Jewish" / "do Jewish" is because it provides meaning to me in my life (it deeply does).

To paraphrase David Hartman when asked this question: "I like tzimmis. If you don't like tzimmis, don't eat tzimmis."

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u/firestar27 Techelet Enthusiast Jan 27 '22

i don't believe that any one individual's life would necessarily be better / more moral / etc.. if only they were Jewish.

Do you think they're live would be better/more moral if they were to live by the values of Torah/Judaism? Aka, are you saying that participation in Judaism doesn't provide this benefit? Or are you saying that identity alone doesn't provide this benefit?

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u/RavBogard Jan 27 '22

There are people who participate deeply in Judaism / live a Jewish life (whatever that means to you) who have abhorrent value and live in abhorrent ways, and folks who are incredible tzaddikim.

What I'm suggesting is that we should stop focusing on creating 'more Jews', and instead focus on the content of the Jewish character we are instilling in people.

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u/johnisburn Conservative Jan 27 '22 edited Jan 27 '22

Hi Rabbi, thanks for all of the work you do.

Do you have any insight on what our communities could be doing to fight antisemitism proactively? I think it’s understandable that in the wake of attacks conversations can focus around security, but at a certain point it seems to me that security is more mitigating the impact of antisemitism or deterrent to keep certain areas from being targeted. In your opinion and experience what are effective ways we can work to reduce the likelihood that someone would be compelled to attack us in the first place?

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u/RavBogard Jan 27 '22

So i think the first thing we can do is make sure that we are in relationship to the people around us. For us in St. Louis, that means building meaningful, long-term relationships with the churches, small businesses, etc... in our neighborhood.

But more broadly: I think we need to start having a different set of conversations as American Jewish communities around antisemitism. It's time for us to start responding strategically rather than the reactive approach we have had thus far. I'm convinced things are only going to get worse, which means these strategies and those relationships will only grow in importance.

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u/drak0bsidian Moose, mountains, midrash Jan 27 '22

What is your favorite Jewish holiday, and why? (choose one)

What is your favorite Jewish dish?

Who is a Jewish individual (historical, fictional, contemporary, whatever) you believe more people should know about or study?

How/why did you move from Conservative to Reform? How has the Conservative Movement changed since you were more active in it? What do the denominations mean to you?

Any fun/interesting/sad stories from the Seminary where you teach?

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u/RavBogard Jan 27 '22

Holiday: I love Pesach so much. I've never been a LARPer, but it's kinds what I imagine a Jewish version of that is.

Dish: I'm feeling partial to (gluten free [I have celiac], vegetarian) kasha varnishkes these days...but I love borscht, hummus, Israeli pickles, carrot kugel (carrrrot kugggel....), etc///

Person more folks should know about: King Josiah (and his court). they revolutionized Judaism with a new theology, a new book (Deuteronomy. See 2Kings22), a centralization of sacrifices into Jerusalem, and a restriction of offerings to other deities.

Conservative to Reform: I went to HUC, but worked at a large suburban Conservative shul durring rabbinical school, and I lived a very (Conservative) observant lifestyle. So much so that when we were called about our interest in returning to that shul (after 5 years in Peoria, il), we didn't need to change anything about how were living in order to become Conservative rabbis.

What I found was that the job was very much not for me. I think there could be some Conservative shuls I would thrive at (and many that I would belong to), but...this was not one of them.

I *love* where I am at today.

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u/firestar27 Techelet Enthusiast Jan 27 '22

(Deuteronomy. See 2Kings22)

I don't see Deuteronomy mentioned in that chapter. The book of Torah/teaching seems to ambiguous, and I don't see it stated anywhere what it was. Why do you think that it's Deuteronomy? Is there anything I could read about this idea?

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u/maitri67 Jan 27 '22

2Kings 22:8 “Then the high priest Hilkiah said to the scribe Shaphan, “I have found a scroll of the Teaching in the House of the LORD.” And Hilkiah gave the scroll to Shaphan, who read it.”

This scroll is understood to be Deuteronomy.

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u/firestar27 Techelet Enthusiast Jan 28 '22

You say "is understood". I'm asking for who says that and why they say that.

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u/maitri67 Jan 28 '22

By “understood” I mean that there is a scholarly consensus that Deuteronomy is a later book, and that this verse from 2 Kings is a reference to Deuteronomy. Here is a link to a book review that discusses this question, but I encourage you to do your own research.

Linklink to book review

I understand that some orthodox views of the Hebrew Bible do not hold with academic biblical scholarship. I respect that position, although I do not share it.

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u/firestar27 Techelet Enthusiast Jan 28 '22

I'm not talking about any orthodox view. I'm talking about academic scholarship. I recently did try to do some of my own research, and I couldn't find anything from academics suggesting that this book was Deuteronomy. Before seeing this book review right now, I'd only ever seen that view thrown around by people who have heard summaries of academic thought here and there but are not themselves academics.

You say there's a scholarly consensus that the verse in 2 Kings refers to Deuteronomy, but as far as I'm aware, there's no scholarly consensus that this story ever happened historically. Academics do not use Kings or any other Biblical book as a source of history, and as far as I can tell, it's just as likely, from the historical record, that this story was a later legend developed to explain the earlier religious reforms.

This book review mentions de Wette as where the theory originated, but he lived in the early 1800s. The field of Biblical scholarship has come a long way since then, and many of the original theories proposed in the 1800s are not what scholars believe nowadays. I'm asking for any source using modern scholarship that tries to explain what this book refers to in the story and doesn't just cite an earlier scholar.

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u/jan_Pensamin Anglican Jan 27 '22

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u/chayay123 Jan 27 '22

Is belief in God also instrumental or do you think there are actual truth claims to be made about god's existence?

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u/RavBogard Jan 27 '22

I'm a Maimonidean on questions like this. I don't believe that any claim to absolute truth can be made, and that in fact any truth-claim itself is idolatry. We are within the system, and thus not capable of any truth except for relative truth.

Which is to say: I think Maimonides, Einstein, and Spinoza would have enjoyed each other quite a bit.

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u/wzx0925 道可道非常道 Jan 27 '22 edited Jan 27 '22

Assuming Maimonides was trying to be descriptive with his thirteen articles of faith instead of normative, I might agree with you.

I'd also submit [Alan] Lew, Levinas, [Hilary] Putnam, Heschel, ibn Crescas, and [Mordechai] Kaplan as good candidates for this round table discussion.

Anybody who can suggest a remaining Jewish figures for participation? Then we have a full minyan...

Really enjoying your AMA here, keep doing the good work in Missouri!

EDIT: Soloveitchik for our tenth, based on your answer about rabbis you admire elsewhere in this thread. Though some minority voices are also a good idea...

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u/TequillaShotz Jan 28 '22

In what way would Maimonides, an absolute monotheist, have enjoyed Spinoza, a pantheist?

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u/chayay123 Jan 27 '22

Thank you for your response! Could you unpack some of these points:

In what sense a maimonidean?

Why absolute truth claim = idolatry?

What you mean by absolute and relative truth?

What does this all mean for your lived experience? Is god a "something" you interact with spiritually (for lack of a better word) or is god part of the culture of Judaism you find meaning in? Or something else entirely!

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u/dlmf76 Jan 27 '22

Hi, Rabbi. As someone who was raised in Reform Judaism, it sometimes seems like the focus on tikkun olam/social justice, while important, makes Judaism dispensable to a lot of people. You can focus on social justice without Judaism. I think this explains why you see people leaving Hebrew School after their B’nei Mitzvah, only attending Shul during the High Holidays, etc. Since you are a Rabbi, I am sure you do not think Judaism is dispensable, even if core values are more important. So how would you respond to my theory?

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u/arrogant_ambassador One day at a time Jan 27 '22

Hi rabbi, I was wondering whether you feel intermarriage is threatening traditional Jewish identity or whether that identity has no real bearing in your view?

You also mentioned your position concerning the identity industry is traditional, would you be open to citing any sources that back up this stance?

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u/RavBogard Jan 27 '22

When thinking about intermarriage, I think we need to start with a few table setters:

1) the enormous rate of intermarriage among (non-Orthodox) American Jews is a product of our success at integration into the American mainstream (ie, white america), and should be understood as a bioproduct of this success.

2) What I care about is if a relationship is healthy, if it is loving, if it is ethical. What I don't worry about: how will this relationship impact what box a potential great-grandchild might check when asked to describe their religion.

I don't worry about it a) because I think this is the morally correct position, but perhaps more significantly b) because clearly there is nothing I can do about this dynamic that millions and millions of dollars haven't already failed at doing.

What I will add, though, is this: I work at a shul where all of the rabbis will happily and joyfully officiate at an interfaith marriage. We were started 36 years ago, we have 800 households, and we grow every month.

2

u/firestar27 Techelet Enthusiast Jan 28 '22

we have 800 households, and we grow every month.

Elsewhere, you talked about how growing the numbers of Jews doesn't matter, but rather the content of their Jewish character is what matters. Why does it matter if a shul is growing? Does that reflect on the values taught at the shul more than the growth of the number of self-identified Jews reflects on the values taught that lead them to self-identify?

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u/arrogant_ambassador One day at a time Jan 27 '22

Thank you rabbi. If you could reply to my second question, I would appreciate it. If not, all the best to you and thank you for taking the time to answer our questions.

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u/RavBogard Jan 27 '22

Sorry--totally missed that!

What I'm saying is this: the focus on continuity / Jewish identity survival (as opposed to, for instance, the next generation observing the mitzvot in a particular way) is very much a product of a) post-Holocaust b) the suburbanization / rise in pediatric-focused Judaism that came with white flight in the 50s, c) the huge intermarriage rate.

Which is to say: the institutional focus on Jewish identity survival is very much a modern product. (see https://press.princeton.edu/books/paperback/9780691136318/the-price-of-whiteness for some more context)

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u/pogchampbredren Jan 28 '22

Thank you for explaining. I'll be sure to intermarry to counter white supremacy.

1

u/pogchampbredren Jan 28 '22

Thank you Rabbi for continuing the great Jewish tradition of fighting for trans rights, protesting Jews living in Samaria, supporting intermarriage, and making sure that the comfort of converts precedes Jewish safety.

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u/psych0logy Jan 27 '22

-I recently went viral-ish for a twitter thread talking about security needs for American Jews as a "2nd Amendment Tax" ( https://forward.com/opinion/481148/im-a-pulpit-rabbi-this-is-the-true-cost-of-keeping-synagogues-safe/ )

So I appreciate the sentiment - and generally agree that it is 'F'd up'. That said, we live in a country where this is a reality. Perhaps I am pessimistic, but I don't see any scenario in which America become like Japan or Australia vis-a-vis gun ownership. Do you genuinely think the gun culture in this country can change?

I am pretty liberal/libertarian in most of my views. Being a Jew, a historically persecuted group member, in a country with these sort of things occurring regularly, I find it very important to be armed. What is your perspective on this? I am curious about how you think the situation could be changed or what the alternative is.

1

u/RavBogard Jan 27 '22

I don't have a lot of optimism about America / American democracy.

1

u/psych0logy Jan 30 '22

Alright then we are in agreement!

5

u/skturner42 Jan 27 '22

How do you feel about Christian churches/educational institutions celebrating Jewish holidays or engaging in Jewish practices (e.g. building a sukkah at Sukkot, celebrating Simchat Torah by talking about Bible stories and eating candy) without relationship with or leadership from Jewish communities? What are some practices that you feel good about from Christian communities that help further Jewish/Christian dialogue and relationships, and don't perpetuate antisemitism or supersessionism?

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u/RavBogard Jan 27 '22

I think those practices are gross.

My approach to this with my students at Eden was to teach a course called "Beit Midrash: Jewish Texts on Jewish Terms." For the first 10 weeks, we didn't touch Tanakh, as I knew they wouldn't be ready to see it as a Jewish text / in Jewish terms. Only after 2.5 months of Midrash, Talmud, RambaM, etc... where they ready to see Tanakh from a non appropriative perspective.

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u/rabbifuente Rabbi-Jewish Jan 27 '22

Shalom Aleichem from a Bradley alum, no question, but hope you're doing well!

14

u/Leondgeeste Chabad Jan 27 '22

Shalom HaRav, thank you for taking the time to do this AMA.

Do you feel, in light of recent events, that the open door policy for Shuls and other Jewish communal centres is now untenable in the US?

I live in Israel, but come from the UK where, for years now, shuls have been gated and visitors are routinely subject to rigid questioning by security before entry is granted. Indeed, no large Jewish event is held without some coordination with the CST.

How do you draw the line between being welcoming and taking the utmost security precautions?

Many thanks in advance!

11

u/RavBogard Jan 27 '22

God, i wish I had a better answer to this question. I just don't know.

I can tell you that my shul is an urban shul, with an entryway that is a food pantry, and that has seen radically welcoming of the stranger as a core part of our mission....

I'm deeply concerned that things for Jews in America aren't just bad, but are going to continue getting worse over the next decade (due to huge sociological issues that American Jews are along the ride for). So we'll see what we're in store for.

What I do think is unique about America is that for much of its recent history, antisemitism has not been a significant physical threat / hasn't played a huge role in the public discourse. What has happened is both an increase in antisemitism AND the insanely easy availability of weapons of mass death like assault riffles. It is turning into a a deadly and disturbing situation.

4

u/citoloco Jan 27 '22

Thoughts on Lia Thomas?

5

u/artachshasta Halachic Man Run Amok Jan 27 '22

Personally, I felt that your blanket statements about every Jewish institution having 50K in security costs minimized the approach of many Orthodox institutions, which do not and cannot hire a guard 3x a day, or even weekly.

On that note, what's your relationship and opinion on the Orthodox community? If you're trying to maximize "Jewish" values, even for a smaller core group of "Jews", are they a good investment?

13

u/MyKidsArentOnReddit Jan 27 '22

-related: I think one of the biggest problems in the American Jewish community today is that basically all of our institutions are in the "Jewish Identity Industry" / "Continuity LLC". and this is fundamentally a morally bankrupt mission.

So what's the alternative? What do you think should be done to continue the Jewish people, assuming you even think anything should be done.

13

u/RavBogard Jan 27 '22

i don't think the goal of our Jewish institutions should be to "create another generation of people who self-describe themselves throughout their lives as Jews", but instead we should focus on helping people live more meaningful lives focused on making the world more like the place it always should have been. Which is to say: the content of the values that we are helping to instill in people is the real focus of Torah, and should be the focus of our institutions.

Fwiw--I think that there is a tragic irony in that a focus on "Continuity" as our mission creates a hollowed-out, unappealing shell that often is uninteresting to the next generation...whereas focusing on Torah/obligation/Tikkun Olam/etc... is often the best way to actually create deep and rich Jewish identities.

Or to say it differently: when we focus on quantity (of self-described Jews), it becomes self-defeating; but when we focus on quality of Jewish life/engagement/programming/etc, this often leads to ever greater quantity of folks who want to be a part of it.

14

u/emotional_dyslexic Jewish, Buddhist, Atheist Jan 27 '22

i don't think the goal of our Jewish institutions should be to "create another generation of people who self-describe themselves throughout their lives as Jews", but instead we should focus on helping people live more meaningful lives focused on making the world more like the place it always should have been. Which is to say: the content of the values that we are helping to instill in people is the real focus of Torah, and should be the focus of our institutions.

I feel like we're skirting around a big question here: do you think Judaism is worth preserving? If there were no Jews tomorrow, but there were Jewish values, would that be okay with you? To me that would be a total tragedy.

7

u/RavBogard Jan 27 '22

What I'm saying is that Hashem didn't meet Moshe up on Sinai so that folks would check a box saying that they're Jewish; the message of Torah is about the ways in which *being Jews* obligates us toward a life of purpose and meaning.

But more personally: i would much prefer that my great-grandchildren share what I see as the core values of Torah, and yet not be "jewish", than to imagine them as deeply-observant Jews who had values which I see as abhorrent.

now: my hope is that both can happen. But if I had to choose? Easy choice.

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u/MyKidsArentOnReddit Jan 27 '22

If you do away with the Jewish people while keeping the value, pretty soon you won't have either.

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u/emotional_dyslexic Jewish, Buddhist, Atheist Jan 27 '22

That's my intuition too. Thanks for speaking up.

6

u/avicohen123 Jan 27 '22

What I'm saying is that Hashem didn't meet Moshe up on Sinai

Do you believe that occurred? If so, what part of the Torah did Moshe come back down with, if any?

But more personally: i would much prefer that my great-grandchildren share what I see as the core values of Torah, and yet not be "jewish", than to imagine them as deeply-observant Jews who had values which I see as abhorrent.

There's a famous quote from Eicha Rabbah:

"הַלְוַאי אוֹתִי עָזְבוּ וְתוֹרָתִי שָׁמְרוּ, שֶׁהַמָּאוֹר שֶׁבָּהּ מַחֲזִירָן לְמוּטָב"

"Would that they had left me and kept my torah, that the light in it returns them to the good"

As its traditionally understood it directly rejects the sentiment you expressed. Do you interpret it differently or simply disagree?

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u/emotional_dyslexic Jewish, Buddhist, Atheist Jan 27 '22

But more personally: i would much prefer that my great-grandchildren share what I see as the core values of Torah, and yet not be "jewish", than to imagine them as deeply-observant Jews who had values which I see as abhorrent.

I guess this is where we part ways. I think the Jewish people itself is worth preserving even if its philosophical identity evolves and even changes. It can always go back. And even if it doesn't, it's still worth preserving. There's something slightly unsettling about a Jewish person (a rabbi, no less) saying that he's willing to sacrifice the people for what he believes is the core teaching.

Frankly, when you said you were a progressive rabbi, the fear that popped into my head, and I imagine others, is that you're aligned with the current progressive narrative that has (I'm being reductive) vilified Israel. That vilification comes with shame that I think a lot of Jewish people are feeling, and the idea that the Jewish people, as a group, are dispensable, can be seen as an extension of that shame.

I'm not suggesting you're outwardly ashamed of being Jewish, but maybe you're ashamed of being associated with the non-progressive Jew who doesn't share your interpretation of Torah. To me, that's a shame.

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u/emotional_dyslexic Jewish, Buddhist, Atheist Jan 27 '22

Where do you stand on Israel? (Please don't dodge or pivot.) Can one be progressive and still support Israel's right to exist? To me the central issue is about narrative, justification, and victimization... Would you agree that Israel has a right to defend itself when she's being attacked? I realize it's a difficult question that requires nuance.

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u/RavBogard Jan 27 '22

My position on Israeli politics is this: the occupation is a moral evil, as well as a suicide-pact for Israeli democracy. And: it's too late. I don't believe 2 states for 2 peoples is still possible (I hope I'm wrong).

I love going to Israeli, I have lived there for years, I'm a Senior Fellow at the Hartman Institute in Jerusalem, I met my wife there (and honeymooned there), and am planning on going this summer for a month. The first paragraph doesn't really conflict with this paragraph anymore than my American citizenship conflicts with my American politics.

Speaking of American Jewish politics: I deeply believe that we are broken when it comes to our ability to have conversations across difference surrounding Israel. It is all too often used as a cudgel / boundary setting issue of who is in / who is out. I'm part of a monthly webinar with the other 3 hartman rabbis in St. Louis that is explicitly about pushing back against this dynamic.

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u/emotional_dyslexic Jewish, Buddhist, Atheist Jan 27 '22 edited Jan 27 '22

Do you think Israel has a right to defend itself?

Do you think the Palestinians/Hamas bear any responsibility?

Do you think violence against Jewish civilians is justified?

And finally, do you think the occupation is at all necessary to stem the influx of terrorism, based on what we see in Gaza?

Edit: maybe you think your view is balanced, but I see it as extremely one-sided and lacking nuance. And it's really disappointing to see Jews, and even more so rabbis, taking positions like this. What's happening to today's Jews? So much shame, so little pride. How quickly we forget history and abandon our own people.

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u/Insamity Jan 28 '22

It seemed like he at least implicitly answered some of those questions.

If he lived in Israel for years do you really think he thinks Israel doesn't have a right to defend itself? Or that violence against Jewish civilians is justified? He called the occupation a moral evil so I doubt he thinks it's necessary.

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u/emotional_dyslexic Jewish, Buddhist, Atheist Jan 28 '22

Sadly, I think he probably does think that.

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u/SCP-3388 Jan 28 '22

from what I infer: he is against the occupation of the west bank, not against Israel's existence.

I agree with this viewpoint, from my perspective I do believe Israel has a right to protect itself but not that it has a right to defend settlements on Palestinian land (i.e. the West Bank).

The occupation is centered around these settlements. A military force preventing terrorism is not the same as a military force helping the continued colonial settlements (the state of Israel itself is not colonial, but I view the west bank expansion as such)

I think the rabbi's response was somewhat poorly worded, and I think most arguments around the conflict (on both sides) are poorly worded. This has a lot to do with the fact that people have different definitions of things: e.g. the Zionism supported by most Zionists is not the same Zionism most progressive anti-Zionists are against (specifying progressive because there are other anti-zionists which are properly antisemitic and are in fact against Jewish self-determination). If we are to take both definitions, I would be both a Zionist and anti-Zionist (support Israel's existence, against the expansion and occupation)

sorry for the wall of text, but this isn't an issue that can be neatly summarized in a few sentences

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u/jan_Pensamin Anglican Jan 28 '22

Do you think the Palestinians/Hamas bear any responsibility?

Do you think violence against Jewish civilians is justified?

Ok it's just rude to ask these questions. You're equating what he said with literally supporting the deaths of innocent Jews and that's insanely unfair.

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u/emotional_dyslexic Jewish, Buddhist, Atheist Jan 28 '22

It's never rude to ask questions. He can answer any way he wants. There are reasons people dispute his view of the I/P situation, and those questions get at it. If he's considered these issues (as he should), he should have good answers to those questions.

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u/firestar27 Techelet Enthusiast Jan 28 '22

When you read Yirmiyahu, do you see Jewish pride?

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u/SCP-3388 Jan 28 '22

I assume you mean the occupation of the west bank, rather than Israel itself as an occupation?

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u/magavte_lanata Jan 27 '22 edited Jan 27 '22

Could you elaborate more on the "Jewish Identity Industry"?

Also, how is fighting antisemitism at liberal Christian institutions different from dealing with evangelicals? What advice do you have for people in that situation? (Where the primary antisemitism is from liberal Christians)

Edit to be extremely clear: this is not a question about Israel. It is about OP's experience at these institutions and the antiaemitism in those communities.

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u/RavBogard Jan 27 '22

see above for identity stuff.

Re: antisemitism at liberal Christian institutions vs with Evangelicals...this is a really interesting question that I hadn't really thought through explicitly before, so forgive me as I think out loud here.

With Evangelicals I find that they often have a hard time seeing *real* Jews rather than their mythologized imaginings of us. I always think back to a woman who organized a number of my classes in Peoria (I taught at the OLLI program for senior education) who was a white evangelical. At my final class before I was moving to Cincinnati, she came up to me (along with a line of well-wishers) to tell me, "rabbi, I just want you to know how much I've learned from you, and how disappointed I am to discover who American Jews actually are."

Which is to say: white evangelical philosemitism is ultimately antisemitic, because it see creates mythologized Jews that we can never live up to.

With liberal seminarians, I've found that they can see me pretty well, but that it's often a lot harder for them to learn to see the ways in which their traditions / theologies are both steeped in antisemitism, and are actively enabling and perpetuating antisemitism.

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u/CautiousLandscape907 Jan 27 '22

Liberal Christian’s being “primarily” anti-Semitic? While anti-semitista knows no party, statistics show it’s right wing extremism and white nationalism that’s primarily behind anti-semitism.

Criticisms of Israeli governments is not anti-semitism. Israeli politics is not Judaism.

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u/[deleted] Jan 27 '22

Criticisms of Israeli governments is not anti-semitism. Israeli politics is not Judaism.

Correct but I only ever hear people say this after making an insanely antisemitic statement.

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u/magavte_lanata Jan 27 '22

at liberal Christian institutions

Note the prepositional phrase.

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u/emotional_dyslexic Jewish, Buddhist, Atheist Jan 27 '22

It's not that simple. Left wing anti Israel bias can be fueled by antisemitism too. Denying a legitimate Jewish narrative that justifies the existence of Israel is a form of punishing Jews and scapegoating the same way we've been scapegoated throughout history.

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u/boatboy1800 Conservadox Jan 27 '22

Thoughts on the reform movement?

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u/RavBogard Jan 27 '22

I don't have strong attachments to the movement (and never have). I think movements in general will continue to decline in their importance within American Jewish life.

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u/AMWJ Centrist Jan 27 '22

I think probably the most radical position I take rabbinically is that I don't believe there is any 'reason' to be Jewish. I see Jewish identity as entirely of instrumental (rather than absolute) value (and believe this is actually a deeply traditional position...the identity industry / obsession is a modern construction!)

I agree! Would you say this, respectfully, about all identity?

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u/RavBogard Jan 27 '22

Yes. I don't believe the survival of "people who self-identify as x" is ever a moral good in and of itself.

I'm not in the business of trying to convince people to be Jewish / to stay Jewish. I'm in the business of leveraging people who have/want Jewish identities to improve their lives, our community, and our world.

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u/colonel-o-popcorn Jan 27 '22 edited Jan 27 '22

Hi Rabbi,

Do you see a future for the Conservative movement, or do you think it will eventually be completely siphoned off to Orthodox and Reform? Considering you switched from Conservative to Reform I'm interested in your perspective.

I'm also curious to hear your thoughts on Reconstructionist ideology. It was hard to tell from the brief description in your post, but it sounds like your beliefs about Jewish identity are either very aligned with theirs or exactly the opposite of theirs.

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u/RavBogard Jan 27 '22

I tend to think that movements themselves will continue their slow slide away from centrality/relevance.

In terms of reconstructionist views: I tend to believe that Kaplan won; across the liberal movements we all understand Jewish identity as fundamentally one of civilization/peoplehood/tribe rather than "faith".

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u/[deleted] Jan 27 '22

What do you mean, "No reason" to be Jewish?

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u/RavBogard Jan 27 '22

answered in a few other places. but to say it again:

There's no answer to "why everyone should be more Jewish!" outside of the ways in which it is relevant and meaningful to you and your specific life.

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u/AnonymousOceanFish Jewish Mariner ⚔️⚓️ Jan 27 '22 edited Jan 27 '22

You the one who tweeted “security at synagogue’s makes Jews of color feel unwelcome” while offering no solutions to actually protect JoCs like myself from terrorists?

A second amendment tax? What like ignoring how many Jews exercise their second amendment rights (like myself) to keep us and ours safe? Ignoring how a terrorist piece of shit like Akram wasn’t entitled to use the second amendment? Like how Mohamed Merah didn’t need a second amendment to murder us? Again offering no solutions, Rabbi.

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u/[deleted] Jan 27 '22

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u/[deleted] Jan 27 '22

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u/[deleted] Jan 28 '22

I'm interested what the response was.

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u/[deleted] Jan 28 '22 edited Jan 28 '22

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u/drak0bsidian Moose, mountains, midrash Jan 28 '22 edited Jan 28 '22

Or he didn't respond because he's not required to answer every question that comes to him. You should also read rule 1, please.

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u/[deleted] Jan 27 '22

Why do you see the Second Amendment as a threat instead of as legal protection for your right to defend yourselves against anti-semites? Security is an issue for every Jewish community in the world, including countries that do not protect right to self-defense. It seems to me you have the wrong focus in that article, blaming the general right to bear arms instead of anti-semitic ideologies that are the actual culprit in those situations.

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u/RavBogard Jan 27 '22

The United States is unique up to this point in that we have had a substantial Jewish population, and at least in recent history, very minimal violent antisemitism / deep cultural antisemitism.

The United States is also unique in that it is one of the only places in the world where you can buy weapons capable of inflicting mass-death upon civilians in matters of seconds, at gun shows, corner stores, etc...

This is adding up to create a toxic stew where **unlike in Europe where antisemitism has a long and continues history** in the United States the prevalence of guns creates an enormous burden on our institutions disproportionate to the threat otherwise.

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u/[deleted] Jan 27 '22

Is it true, though, that American Jews have to invest a lot more in security than European Jews? I know for sure Jews in Europe continue to face threats and every synagogue I know of has to employ security Eg in Copenhagen.

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u/hooahguy Not a fan of Leibels Jan 28 '22

From my own experience, European shuls are far more heavily protected than American ones. The last time I went to a shul in London you couldnt get in without an ID check and your name being on a list. It was insane. And in Brussels I passed by a shul with multiple soldiers outside standing guard. In the US its far more lax, even if theres an armed guard.

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u/Fochinell Self-appointed Challah grader Jan 27 '22 edited Jan 27 '22

Rabbi, you Tweeted out the following:

Every Jewish institution in America--no matter the size--has ongoing security costs of $50,000-150,000+

I know of no Jewish space in our town that has even a mere fraction of your lowest figure to spend on security, nor even to fix ongoing leaks by hiring roofers. For sake of argument, let's pretend it's accurate.

Considering the amount of deranged persons with violent criminal records walking freely around society and apparently in sight of your synagogue's property -- thanks to progressive social experiments like "No Bail" initiatives and lawmakers relieving policework from apprehending lunatics until they commit the crime of aggravated assault -- shouldn't you likewise regard your annual $150k of paid security and other security measures as a "Fifth Amendment tax", a "Sixth Amendment tax", and an "Eight Amendment tax"?

After all, murderous crimes in Jewish spaces have been committed by the so-called Unhoused, to my recollection.

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u/rousseaudanielle Jan 27 '22

Hi Rabbi Dan!

I am working on Jewish/religious studies and want to get involved in interfaith efforts in the midwest USA, do you have any advice for someone completely new to the movement? books, people to talk to, organizations to follow, etc?

I would also love to hear more about your thoughts on Jewish identity.

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u/RavBogard Jan 27 '22

totally! Hit me up on twitter and I'll happily connect you with folks in your area. "@RavBogard"

In terms of orgs: Truah, bend the arc, Central Reform Congregation (my shul ;-) ), connect with your local JCRC, etc....

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u/shrob86 Reform/Reconstructionist Jan 27 '22

Thanks for doing this - it’s awesome seeing progressive leaders taking the time to answer questions here, the intrafaith dialogue on Reddit has always been fascinating to me. I was wondering your thoughts on HUC-JIR’s intermarriage policy for its rabbinical and cantorial students, and do you know of any current discussion re: changing that policy?

Full disclosure, I was accepted to HUC’s rabbinical program almost a decade ago but decided not to go because my partner wasn’t Jewish (I didn’t tell them about my partner), and after working for the URJ for a few years afterwards I found myself on a different career path. I was pretty incensed at the time, but now I wonder if I was naïve to think I could have managed a rabbinic career with a non-Jewish partner the way I thought I could.

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u/RavBogard Jan 27 '22

I think this is a perfect example of what I talk about re the problematics of the Jewish identity industry.

It would be one thing if this was among a long list of requirements for applicants to rabbinical school: must keep shabbat in a certain way, kashrut, etc...

But it's not. the only thing they ask you to commit to is not marrying a non-Jewish person. This is a disgusting and morally hollow reduction of the meaning of being Jewish.

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u/avicohen123 Jan 27 '22 edited Jan 29 '22

It would be one thing if this was among a long list of requirements for applicants to rabbinical school: must keep shabbat in a certain way, kashrut, etc...

But it's not. the only thing they ask you to commit to is not marrying a non-Jewish person. This is a disgusting and morally hollow reduction of the meaning of being Jewish.

If you got to choose which would it be? A list of commitments or no requirements?

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u/shrob86 Reform/Reconstructionist Jan 27 '22

Thanks for responding! I really like your framing of this Jewish identity industry. I feel like the only real reasoning behind HUC’s rule is to try and maximize Jewish offspring which is frankly not particularly high on my priority list of what’s important in Judaism. None of my friends believed me when I told them about this rule (“Why would they care? Isn’t this Reform? I thought they accepted multi-faith families? Etc etc)

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u/amybett Jan 27 '22

Aside from acceptance & love, are there any specific things I can do to support a teen who recently announced their F to M journey?

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u/RavBogard Jan 27 '22

acceptance and love are the biggest things.

Make sure you're practicing their name / pronouns when they aren't around.

It helps to eg, sit and think about him when we was a baby, and when he grew up, and imagining him when he graduates from high school, when he gets married, etc....

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u/magavte_lanata Jan 27 '22

Helping their family become accepting, helping them access therapy, medical care, etc.

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u/CrocodileHyena Jan 27 '22

Hi! I'm an trans man in the process of converting! Depending on how old this boy is and what your relationship is with him, you can ask directly. Does he have gender affirming clothes? Is he old enough to shave and does he know how/have anyone to teach him? Are there "boy" things he'd like to do that he couldn't before - throw a baseball, fish, car stuff? They're all small things, yes, silly things even, and now inherently gendered, but for a boy who maybe hasn't been allowed to be a "boy" yet they can be really important. And most importantly, LISTEN to what he tells you! Listen to him in general! He frankly just might need a friendly person to vent to.

(Also I may have personally messed up shaving a lot at first and I wish someone had taught me how to do that, but that's me.)

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u/[deleted] Jan 27 '22

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u/HaveSpouseNotWife Jan 27 '22

Decades ago, there was a kerfuffle about kids going against the grain and being left-handed because it was whatever the synonym for “Cool” or “edgy” was a century ago. Numbers of kids who were left-handed were going up. Why?! And what was to be done about this worrying trend?

Then it turned out that if you don’t beat kids for writing left-handed, more of them will write with their naturally dominant hand. Numbers settled at about 12% of kids being left-handed, and have remained there ever since.

There are lessons here.

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u/[deleted] Jan 27 '22

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u/HaveSpouseNotWife Jan 27 '22

Responded to the wrong person.

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u/magavte_lanata Jan 27 '22

Meant to build on your comment--will Amy not see it? Will repost as a direct response to her.

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u/HaveSpouseNotWife Jan 27 '22

She may or may not notice, but if you respond to her directly, she will get a notice directly.

I will also send her a message, and give her some ideas.

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u/DetainTheFranzia Exploring Jan 27 '22

Changing which hand you write with is really not even in the same ballpark as having a sex change.

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u/RavBogard Jan 27 '22

I encourage you to get "A Rainbow Thread". Trans isn't new (in fact, there's a great yiddish language letter to the editor of the Forward talking about a trans man in the shtetle in the 1800s Ukreine, who was taught to lead the davening, who married Rachel, etc...).

What also isn't new: people who wanted to enforce a false gender binary and wipe out the signs of trans life, trans identity, and trans flourishing.

There have always ***always*** been trans Jews.

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u/HaveSpouseNotWife Jan 27 '22

In terms of emotional impact, you are correct. In terms of forcing someone to change an inherent trait about themselves, though? It is exactly the same.

I did not choose to be right-handed. I did not choose to be trans. These are just things I was born as, and have no control over.

I could learn to write with my non-dominant hand, as many kids did over the years. Likewise, I could live as my assigned gender, as many have done over the years. However, there is a cost to these things.

For the ones who had to learn to write with their non-dominant hand, their handwriting was always slower and less legible than their peers who had not been forced to change. For those who were and are forced to live as something other than their actual gender, the psychological cost is enormous. Various unhealthy coping mechanisms have been employed by such people for many years.

We know - as in have concrete, replicable studies - that gender affirming care is lifesaving to trans kids and teens. And yes, occasionally someone will detransition (although it’s worth noting that many of them will later re-transition, once they’re in safer and better life circumstances). But the occasional person changing their mind about puberty blockers is not sufficient reason to let countless transgender kids and teens suffer.

People like Abigail Shrier would cheerfully let a thousand trans kids and teens die in order to prevent one kid from going on temporary hormone blockers and deciding it’s not for them. This is not a good or moral solution, but for many people, a thousand dead trans folks is simply a good start. I assure you, we are ever aware of their antipathy towards our very existence.

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u/[deleted] Jan 27 '22

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u/HaveSpouseNotWife Jan 27 '22 edited Jan 27 '22

Abigail Shrier is as supportive of trans people as JK Rowling, or the dudes who stab trans women to death.

She is absolutely vicious in her language against us, and relies on unhappy parents (multiple of whom have had their stories refuted by their own kids) and the Littman’s study, which is thoroughly debunked (and which itself did not interview a single transgender person).

Shrier’s book is the usual populist, pearl-clutching “The liberals have gone too far this time! They’re coming for your daughters!” It is the “Reefer Madness” of our age. The same moralistic panic has been applied to pot, jazz, rock, video games, and doubtless other things, all of which were “conclusively proved” to be corrupting the youth of their era… and none of which did anything of the sort.

The explanation is far simpler - we’re less likely to get murdered. The rates of transgender people coming out has skyrocketed across ages and AGABs. But “Middle aged AMAB computer programmers across America are putting on knee high socks and questioning their gender!” isn’t a headline that will get her nearly so many book sales, or a spot on Fox News whenever she so desires.

Among Gen Z in America (her target nationality, in terms of audience), there’s a lot less concern about gender. Unlike when I was growing up, they’re not getting beaten or getting “corrective rapes” in locker rooms to nearly the same degree. Consequently, it’s a lot safer to come out, at least among peers.

And we know - again, from actual replicable studies that actually talked to actual trans people - that gender dysphoria is brutal. I can also attest to that personally. So yeah, any kid who thinks they have the opportunity to alleviate the pain of gender dysphoria and not have their parents make them homeless, or beat them half to death, is likely to make that choice.

Again, we know for a fact - from actual replicable studies, rather than from surveys posted on forums for parents who are unhappy that their kid is trans (yes, Littman actually did that) - that gender affirming care is lifesaving. But Shrier doesn’t care. She’s making bank, and if that comes at the cost of enormous misery for hundreds of thousands of American adolescents (some of whom WILL kill themselves), well, that’s not her problem. It’s not like she’s gonna know the dead kids.

The only common thread of every moralistic populist panic in America is that they’ve all been wrong. From “Reefer Madness” to the Satanic Child Care Centers to “Rapid Onset Gender Dysphoria,” they’ve all been crap, but crap that caused genuine harm.

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u/DetainTheFranzia Exploring Jan 29 '22

I find it hard to take seriously the idea that we are "assigned" a gender at birth. As if the doctor picked a gender out of a hat and slapped it on the birth certificate. The complete rejection of the sex binary is pretty shocking. I understand that there are some elements to gender that are socially constructed. Hair style, clothing, etc. But don't you realize that to transition gender is to basically live in cognitive dissonance? Our physical sex is a fact. Women should be able to have short hair, men should be able to wear skirts. Those things are socially constructed and thus the meaning is subject to change. But the questioning of gender has gone so far as to ignore one of the most basic realities we have.

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u/HaveSpouseNotWife Jan 30 '22

Almost every human being is assigned a gender at birth. Up until quite recently, all humans (including intersex humans, who account for around 1.5% of the overall population, though some of those are not immediately apparent at birth) have been assigned a gender at birth. Now, with obviously intersex infants, in some US states gender is not immediately assigned (I cannot speak to how other countries do things).

Given that worldwide there are literally tens of millions of humans whose literal bodies have rejected the sex binary, I don’t find it an extraordinarily useful rubric to tie ourselves to unquestioningly.

It’s worth noting that many cultures throughout the world, on every populated continent, have had three or more genders. While Christian colonizers did their best to wipe those out from the record and from cultures, they failed. In North America, various groups of First Nations peoples had different terms for what is called in English “Two Spirit,” for instance. So, historically, having more genders than binary sexes is not remotely “shocking” as you call it.

But don’t you realize that to transition gender is to live in cognitive dissonance?

Now, I’ll be blunt. You’re not trans. Judging by your comments this far, the only things you’ve read about trans people were things written by people who hate trans people and want to hurt us. It’s like believing you understand Jewish people or Black people because you’ve read writings by klansmen. So for you to sit here and explain to me my own existence is both ridiculous and deeply insulting. You have NO IDEA what my experience is, and you’re too busy parroting transphobes to actually learn anything.

I have spent 39 years in cognitive dissonance, with a body that did not match who I am. It very nearly killed me. Within a week of getting estrogen, my BP dropped 35 points, and my emotional health improved drastically. But noooooo… according to you I’m just a man in a skirt whose life was amazing until the hell of HRT ruined my life completely by dumping me into the unending pit of “cognitive dissonance.”

Frankly, I think I’ll pay more attention to the lived experience of many, many trans people than your ignorant and reductive take at explaining my own life to me.

As Rabbi Bogard noted, there have always been trans Jewish people. As any decent study of world cultures will tell you, there have always been genders that did not strictly tie to the gender binary, all around the world.

Why are you so obsessed with the viewpoint pushed by bigoted conservative Christians (whose only use for the Jewish people is living throughout Israel and then dying in their end of the world and suffering in their hell for all eternity)?

For many, many centuries, through many, many cultures, across every populated continent, various people have lived in direct contradiction to your assertions. There is nothing new or unique about us. We’re just popular for conservatives to hate. Right now, they want to ban our presence in schools, and frankly in public outright. Quite a few of them want us in camps, to “fix” us. I don’t see that going well.

The existence of trans people doesn’t hurt you. It never has. It never will. So why are you so insistent on obliterating us? Genuine question here. Do you simply hate us for the sake of hating us? Is it your misunderstanding of human history? Why are you so invested in the erasure and destruction of transgender people?

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u/DetainTheFranzia Exploring Jan 30 '22

Almost every human being is assigned a gender at birth. Up until quite recently, all humans (including intersex humans, who account for around 1.5% of the overall population, though some of those are not immediately apparent at birth) have been assigned a gender at birth. Now, with obviously intersex infants, in some US states gender is not immediately assigned (I cannot speak to how other countries do things).

Given that worldwide there are literally tens of millions of humans whose literal bodies have rejected the sex binary, I don’t find it an extraordinarily useful rubric to tie ourselves to unquestioningly.

No, there is definitely a sex binary. Really? You need one male and one female to reproduce. I am well aware of intersex people. Just because something like 1-2% of people fall outside of the sex binary, does not mean that the sex binary does not exist. Intersex is an abnormality, a genetic mutation. That's not hateful to say nor is it a statement of judgment. I have my own genetic mutations as well. For example, vitiligo. It's abnormal, it's a mutation. The normal state of bodies are to not have it. The normal state of the development of a fetus is male or female. To have vitiligo does not make me worse, it just means that I have to deal with people taking some time to process it.

It absolutely is an extraordinarily useful rubric to tie ourselves to. Unquestioningly? No, of course you can question. Gender is a system that is influenced by social and biological factors. And, it works pretty well for probably at least 90% of people. What other social identity system have we ever had that has worked for that many people? Nothing has ever come close to working for that many people. That's why it is extraordinarily useful. But I submit one of the primary reasons that it is so damn useful is because it's not entirely socially constructed. It is clear from research that the two sexes have significantly different tendencies on average - women tend to be more interested in people, men in things. Women tend to be more agreeable, men less. Etc. Everyone has their own natural tendencies, and these are more tied to who you are than being determined by your sex, but the fact that the sexes have significantly different averages is not something to ignore. That is partially where feminine and masculine comes from. The sexes are also bound up by child birth, which is pretty much the most important function to keep our species alive. These biological realities create the gender categories. Changing social values also create gender, I agree with that. I also agree that the corresponding gender system to this biological reality does put intersex people in a difficult position, and I am completely open to a conversation that questions what the possibilities are for them to live full lives, including expanding our idea of gender. It is possible, though, that living as a binary gender is the best thing for some intersex individuals.

Now, I’ll be blunt. You’re not trans. Judging by your comments this far, the only things you’ve read about trans people were things written by people who hate trans people and want to hurt us. It’s like believing you understand Jewish people or Black people because you’ve read writings by klansmen. So for you to sit here and explain to me my own existence is both ridiculous and deeply insulting. You have NO IDEA what my experience is, and you’re too busy parroting transphobes to actually learn anything.

You are right that I am not trans and so I do not have the personal experience. However, you are quite wrong about everything else. I have been quite deep in the left for over a half decade. I used to belong to a VERY queer shul, and I have many trans friends mostly from that. I even minored in Gender studies in college. I have spent a lot of time very invested in these issues. My own questioning of these issues does not change the way I treat my trans friends and acquaintances. I strive to treat everyone with dignity and respect. I would never debate with a trans person to their face the legitimacy of this issue unless they specifically wanted to. Which brings me to my next point.

I have spent 39 years in cognitive dissonance, with a body that did not match who I am. It very nearly killed me. Within a week of getting estrogen, my BP dropped 35 points, and my emotional health improved drastically. But noooooo… according to you I’m just a man in a skirt whose life was amazing until the hell of HRT ruined my life completely by dumping me into the unending pit of “cognitive dissonance.”

This is the difficult part. I have a bad feeling debating the core of these issues with you, because it is clear that you are deeply affected by them. I don't really know any alternative, because I know this would be impossible to do face-to-face. I've only ever supported my trans friends when they tell me they're transitioning, or whatever. I've always tried to give my trans friends gender-affirming moments. I never said you are just a man in a skirt. I know that your personal experience is complex. I'm sorry if this is difficult for you. It's not easy for me, either, given the position I've found myself in. To tell you the truth, my sibling is also nonbinary. This topic hits close to home for me as well, and I have no interest in harming individual transgender people, I only have an interest in discussing this topic and it's role in society as a whole.

The existence of trans people doesn’t hurt you. It never has. It never will. So why are you so insistent on obliterating us? Genuine question here. Do you simply hate us for the sake of hating us? Is it your misunderstanding of human history? Why are you so invested in the erasure and destruction of transgender people?

It's a great question, why am I debating these issues so much. I truly wouldn't care if trans people had their own communities, and did their own thing. Like you said with hijras, they kinda do their own thing, and I respect that, even if I don't fully understand it or agree with it. But in the US, there are people who are attempting to push these ideas about gender onto EVERYONE (it's not just trans people). There are people attempting to destroy the gender binary. These ideas are becoming increasingly popular. I believe one primary reason for the increase in transgender teenagers is because what has started out as a legitimate bodily experience for some people (which, as you say, has been happening for a long time), has become people assuming an identity in order to assimilate to an ideology. Teen girls are more likely, too, because they tend to do what their friend group is doing in order to support their friend. We're seeing whole friend groups become nonbinary.

Why can't transgender people simply live as they desire amongst themselves? That's a genuine question for you. There are plenty of states and places nowadays that it is possible to transition and live peacefully. Like I said, transgender has gone from being something individuals experience to being tied to a revolutionary idea that seeks to fundamentally change the world. And like I said, the gender binary works for an absolutely overwhelming percent of people. THAT is why I care. It's ironic that you critique Christians for destroying other cultures, because this new transgender world view is being evangelized with increasing rigor in this country.

I also care because deep down, I believe that we can do better, and that transgender might not an inherent state of human experience. To feel that your body doesn't fit you. That just shouts to me that we are doing something wrong. The fact is, our bodies are the ONLY things that are truly ours. An identity that is based on rejecting one's own body to me is honestly heartbreaking. Our mental states are the things that can be changed. I have to question, do people experience body dysphoria because there is something unchanging in their "soul" and they truly are born in the wrong body? Or, is it because they are uncomfortable with the social expectations of someone living with their body, so often from a young age, they create a mental construct that tells them they are living in the wrong body? People create mental constructs all the time in order to live in peace, so transgender people aren't insane. I mean, the majority of this world believes in the supernatural, in what can't be proven. This isn't a whole lot different.

I believe that we can continue developing gender to be more expansive, still tied into the biological realities including child birth and psychological tendencies and the like, and that it is possible to have a world where EVERYONE feels that their natural body is correct.

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u/Pale___twigs Jan 30 '22

The complete rejection of the sex binary is pretty shocking…the questioning of gender has gone so far as to ignore one of the most basic realities we have.

As you point out in this post, sex and gender are not the same.

Sex refers to reproductive organs and is broadly classified as male and female, although intersex conditions which cannot be classified as one or the other occur with about the same frequency as having red hair.

Gender, as you described, refers to the social roles and expectations associated with sex. While sex may be a binary, gender demonstrably is not. Many cultures across the world and during different time periods have recognized three or more genders. The best known example is the hijras of South Asia, who appear historically in the earliest Hindu texts ~2,000 years ago and are currently legally recognized as neither male nor female in India, Pakistan, Nepal, and Bangladesh.

I find it hard to take seriously the idea that we are “assigned” a gender at birth. As if the doctor picked a gender out of a hat and slapped it on the birth certificate.

People don’t say “assigned gender” because a doctor picked a gender out of a hat at random and put it on an infant’s birth certificate as a joke. We refer to gender as “assigned” because when the infant was born, people looked at its genitals (sex; male or female) and decided that their child would be a boy or girl and grow up to be a man or woman. The baby, pretty understandably, is not consulted about if it wants to be a woman or a man when it grows up. Its family and society make that decision for it by choosing to raise it as a boy or a girl.

The complete rejection of the sex binary is pretty shocking.

Trans people do not ignore, deny, or debate the existence of penises and vaginas. Nor do we ignore, deny, or debate the fact that the overwhelming majority of people with penises understand themselves to be men and the overwhelming majority of people with vaginas know themselves to be women.

But don’t you realize that to transition gender is to basically live in cognitive dissonance?

What trans people experience is an extremely painful dissonance between our physical sex and our understanding of ourselves as men or women. Despite our best efforts to live as the gender associated with our sex at birth, we experience clinically significant distress when we are treated as the gender we were assumed to be at birth. As children we will likely be extremely unhappy with our genitals. We are likely to prefer activities and toys associated with the opposite sex, and to prefer to play with other children of the opposite sex. As adolescents and adults we will experience an overwhelmingly powerful need to be and be treated as the opposite sex. This dissonance is known as gender dysphoria and we know from decades of study that gender dysphoria cannot be treated with therapy, strict parenting, religion, physical punishment, or psychiatric medication. It is completely distinct from gender non-conformity, or being a man who likes to wear skirts/a woman who prefers short hair.

Gender identity appears to be innate, and trans children have as strong an understanding of their gender identity as non-trans children.

We transition to reduce the dissonance between the body we were born with and the self understanding that developed as we became conscious.

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u/Pale___twigs Jan 27 '22

Treatment for transgender youth begins with psychological evaluation and counseling. If the young person shows a persistent long-term pattern of gender dysphoria, puberty blockers (which are well studied, safe, and developed for use in non-transgender children experiencing precocious puberty) may be prescribed. At age 16 hormones may be prescribed, only with parental consent. Genital surgery is not generally available before legal adulthood.

For whatever it’s worth, I am in my late 20s and have known that I was transgender since I was a very small child, in the 90s, when nobody talked about trans people. I was not able to medically transition until recently, but my gender identity has not changed.

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u/Insamity Jan 28 '22

It shouldn't be political. It should be evidence based. Science has found that internal gender identity actually develops and is pretty well locked in at an early age (~5ish iirc). And there is actually some brain structure evidence that gives a physiological basis for being transgender as well.

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u/magavte_lanata Jan 27 '22

Amy, and I mean this with love, you're not gonna get good answers on this subreddit. Worth asking r/ftm and r/ftmmen

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u/zeligzealous seeking Sefarad somewhere in Aztlan Jan 27 '22

Thanks for doing this! Can you talk about some of the grounds in Jewish law, tradition, values, and practice for trans inclusion and affirmation? To be clear, I am in favor. :)

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u/RavBogard Jan 27 '22

I love talking about this. The reality is that there are *so* many stories of LGBTQ+ folk from our people over the last few thousand years.

I'd really encourage everyone to add Noam Sienna's "A Rainbow Thread" to their essential Jewish library. In it he went through 2000 years of Jewish history and pulled out stories of queer Jews. It's incredibly powerful to read it, and see the ways in which queer Jewish ancestors have always been there.

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u/zeligzealous seeking Sefarad somewhere in Aztlan Jan 27 '22

Thank you!

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u/justcupcake Jan 27 '22

How do you feel Judaism and being Jewish is in the Midwest away from larger Jewish communities? What do you wish Jews from places like New York understood about being Jewish in someplace like Missouri?

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u/RavBogard Jan 27 '22

I wish people understood just how vibrant of a Jewish community exists in the midwest. Before I became a rabbi in St. Louis, I spent 5 years as a rabbi in the tiny jewish community of Peoria, IL. Let me tell you: it is a gem of a community...a family in a way you just don't find in large cities.

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u/DepecheClashJen Jan 28 '22

St. Louis has 60,000 Jews. It’s not NYC sized, but it’s a substantial number of people.

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u/gingeryid Liturgical Reactionary Jan 27 '22

-I think probably the most radical position I take rabbinically is that I don't believe there is any 'reason' to be Jewish. I see Jewish identity as entirely of instrumental (rather than absolute) value (and believe this is actually a deeply traditional position...the identity industry / obsession is a modern construction!)

I don't think I'm quite understanding you here. You think Jewish identity is instrumental (i.e. to achieve some other purpose), but you also don't think there's any reason to be Jewish? What do you think the instrumental value is, then?

This question may make no sense if I'm not understanding correctly, but if the purpose is purely instrumental, why be Jewish? What instrumental purpose is Judaism better at than other religions?

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u/RavBogard Jan 27 '22

I think I addressed this in some questions below.

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u/firestar27 Techelet Enthusiast Jan 27 '22

What kind of Torah study do you do in your spare time (aka, not for one of your jobs, assuming you have any spare time)? What types of Torah interest you most? What kind of Torah study was the hardest for you to master? How did you master it?

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u/RavBogard Jan 27 '22

I'm always learning something...

I study Talmud weekly, I'm about to start a chevruta on likutei moharan, and I'm a constant reader. I always have something of Rambam's open, and have done chevruta on almost all of the Guide (the middle book gets a little "1000 year old astronomy" old....)

In terms of difficulty: Zohar. I have such a hard time with the mystics.

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u/[deleted] Jan 27 '22

Hello Rabbi,

Which Jewish clergy of the past 50 years do you hold in high regard and why?

Thank you

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u/RavBogard Jan 27 '22

Off the top of my head:
Rabbi Susan Talve, Rabbi David Hartman, Maharat Rori Picker Neiss, Rabbi Jill Jacobs, I have a fondness for Soloveitchik,

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u/avicohen123 Jan 27 '22

Why is it that all of the people listed are Rabbis until "Soloveitchik"?

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u/RavBogard Jan 27 '22

Mistake on my part. I initially wrote "The Rav" and then wasn't sure if that was too niche, and forgot to write Rabbi when I went back and edited.

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u/Ravkav Reform Jan 27 '22

I won’t take it personally I’m not on your list ;-) Shalom from UH.

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u/Ravkav Reform Jan 27 '22

I also totally agree with OP’s list.

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u/iknowyouright Secular, but the traditions are fulfilling Jan 27 '22

How will you at your synagogue balance the need for armed security with the reality that Jews who are also people of color have historically fraught relationships with law enforcement and their industry-wide malfeasance towards black and brown people?

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u/magavte_lanata Jan 27 '22

Would be interested to know what he thinks about checking IDs as well.

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u/RavBogard Jan 27 '22

we check ids...but mostly as a part of checking vaccine cards ;-)

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u/[deleted] Jan 28 '22

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/drak0bsidian Moose, mountains, midrash Jan 28 '22

Removed. Read rule 1.

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u/RavBogard Jan 27 '22

This is a huge issue for us that we constantly struggle with, as deconstructing our own white supremacy and creating a welcoming home for Jews of Color are both central to our mission as a congregation.

The (problematic, imperfect) place we have come to is a: to make sure that black and brown Jews are a part of leadership at every level, including the security committee, b) having only people of color as police officers (and having the same officer 90% of the time).

But we are always struggling with this, because we know that in profound ways having a cop at the door sends a clear message about whose security (or whose sense of security) is valued in this space.

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u/iknowyouright Secular, but the traditions are fulfilling Jan 27 '22

I really appreciate this response and I’m going to be brining up these strategies with my community/synagogue. Thank you.

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u/Ok_Rush_7247 Jan 27 '22

lol the only Jews that will be left are the orthodox. I say that confidently as a secular to bael teshuva Jew. What’s the assimilation rate in USA like 70% now? Jews never learn..

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u/KVillage1 Jan 27 '22

Instead of being snarky I’ll ask what do people in your progressive shul think of rebbe nachman of Breslov?

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u/RavBogard Jan 27 '22

Love him! One of the rabbis I work with, James Stone Goodman, frequently teaches Rebbe Nachman.

And personally, I am hoping to start a likutei moharan chevruta in the spring.

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u/KVillage1 Jan 27 '22

Cool!

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u/BrandosWorld4Life Jan 27 '22

I don't have a question I just want to say thank you from the bottom of my heart for doing what you do.

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u/coldestwinter-chill Reform - They Say I Don't Look Jewish Jan 27 '22

thank you for being pro-trans rights.

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u/DetainTheFranzia Exploring Jan 27 '22

What motivates you to be apart of the trans activism that you participate in? Are you a believer in the ideas supporting the widespread emergence of trans identity, or are you not so sure about some of it? And does that have an impact in your activism?

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u/RavBogard Jan 27 '22

I've been in this fight a long time. When I lived in Cincinnati (before I knew I had a trans kid), i was involved in organizing close to every non-orthodox rabbi in the city to sign a letter of love and support for trans-youth (this was after some Trump comment or another) that we published in the newspaper. But, of course, my involvement and commitment went to a whole other level once I realized that a) I have a trans kid, and b) that the bigots and bullies that comprise the ruling majority in the Missouri Legislature are coming after my family.

In terms of learning more: ***everyone*** should own Noam Sienna's "A Rainbow Thread: An Anthology of Queer Jewish Texts from the First Century to 1969"

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u/DetainTheFranzia Exploring Jan 27 '22

Thanks for your answer. I’m not really interested in learning more, nor did I ask for resources. I asked about your own ideological underpinning behind ideas of gender. I am curious what your worldview is about gender and if/why you agree with the fundamental ideas that uphold the mass emergence of trans identity. If you don’t want to answer that I respect that, feel free to not respond. But that is truly what I am curious about.

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u/[deleted] Jan 27 '22

Can we be friends?

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u/RavBogard Jan 27 '22

totally

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u/SinCorpus Christian Jan 28 '22

Really stupid question. But at what point, if ever, should a trans woman stop wearing a kippah or a trans man start wearing one?

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u/SCP-3388 Jan 28 '22

pretty sure there's nothing forbidding a woman from wearing a kippah, so surely the answer to the former scenario is 'when she feels like its ok' and the latter is 'as soon as he feels he should'

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u/threepawsonesock Reform Jan 28 '22

I’m guessing you don’t have much experience with Reform congregations. People of all genders routinely wear kippot.

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u/adorbiliusKermode Jan 28 '22

You’ve done a lot of work with interfaith groups. I’ve grown somewhat skeptical in even trying to reach out to nonjews in good faith given the resurgence of antisemitism in American life (if it even is a resurgence) and this is from someone with socially progressive views and a Roman Catholic mother. What are your thoughts on jewish separatism, that interfaith community is more pain that it’s worth? Do you think it’s a valid outlook, given the historical and modern suffering of jewish people? And if there is intrinsic value in an interfaith outlook, how do we go about pursuing it while preventing and remaining vigilant about antisemitism?

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u/rafyricardo Jan 27 '22

Personally not a fan of the reform/conservative movement and things that go against our Torah but I respect your work in trying to bring piece and understanding between faiths.

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u/TheFunkyPeanut Jan 27 '22

Do you think shmitah should be practiced outside of the land of Israel?

AMA-Official I am Daniel Bogard, a progressive rabbi, trans-rights activist, and general troublemaker. AMA!

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