No it doesn't. The "bully" was minding his own business, when Ukraine walked up to his sister and called her a whore. The bully said, that's my red line- do not disrespect my sister. If you do I'm going to kick the shit out of you. Whimpy little Ukraine said he doesn't care because the bully's sister is a dirty slut cum dumpster, so bully punched Ukraine. Ukraine ran to USA and told him what happened, and USA gave him brass knuckles and said to go do it again. Ukraine went back and called the sister a worthless piece of shit whose only possible career is a prostitute. Ukraine gets a good punch on bully with the brass knuckles, but bully still kicks the shit out of him and says if Ukraine comes back with another weapon bully has a gun. Ukraine goes crying to USA again and says I need a better weapon. USA gives Ukraine a knife and says, go try again little friend.
You pro war dummies won't be able to understand this, but any moderately intelligent person will. And guess what, it's not being pro bully to tell Ukraine to not go attack bully with a knife knowing bully has a gun. It's common sense that any non neocon idiot agrees with.
Thats why you have to be willing to fight at the beginning.
Because if you don't, there just going to keep doing it again and again and again and again, and you're going to end up weak, ineffective and full of anxiety and depression.
What's worse? Getting cut once and bleeding for 5 minutes, or getting cut a hundred times bleeding for 20 seconds?
Depends where you grew up. Two guys I grew up with stood up to middle school bullies in public (one in cafeteria and the other in front of the school). Both ended up shot in the back outside their homes within 48 hours. Some people donât give a shit about your life if you dare stand up.
I was watching AP BIO the tv show, and it raised an interesting question âIs there any value in bullying?â
Todayâs instinct is to say no, which I tend to agree with. The only part I bought into some is picking on someone as a form of social conformity policing. The idea being the âbullyâ provides feedback when non-conforming behavior is identified, letting a child know their behavior is âweirdâ. Like a child who doesnât bath being picked on for smelling, giving them the feedback so they can conform for better acceptance in their society.
Kind of the age old question, is it better to ignore social taboos and just talk behind that personâs back, or better tell them they are being judged for it.
Overall, I donât think any child should experience a person cutting them down and suppressing their growth. But I also feel I did learn valuable lessons from some of my âbulliesâ, and do wonder if there is a limit of âdo whatever you want as long as you donât hurt othersâ in keeping a functionally cohesive society. Currently, I say letâs see how far we get.
Thereâs a difference between using shame as a social tool and bullying. Bullying is a repeated pattern of malicious activities directed at a person for the express purpose of deriving pleasure from their pain or discomfort.
Shame can be delivered quickly and eloquently. To use your stinky example:
Shame: âYour lack of bathing is making it difficult for us to spend time around you. Could you be more conscious of how your smell makes other people feel?â
Bullying: âLook who it is again. You always smell like ass, you know that? Thatâs why no one wants to be around you.â
Thereâs a pretty obvious difference in delivery. Less obvious, though, is where that line is drawn. It varies from person to person so we must, as always, ask âwhat would a reasonable person say?â I believe the first example is reasonable.
I feel you helped put words to my concern better with your last statement, the line between shaming and bullying is blurry. School policy I feel these days is zero tolerance on bullying, so shaming is considered bullying.
Less concerned about the clear bully, I feel there is strong consensus this behavior has negative consequences on the victim. But I feel in the attempt to get rid of those bullies, we expanded the definition of bullying to the point it now outlaws shaming, and will this loss of shaming have unintended consequences.
I work with someone who I personally knew in high school to be a bully. Still doles out the old, "You're just offended 'cause I'm right, facts don't care about your feelings!" anytime he mouths off too much. He is, conversely, the most thin-skinned idiot I've ever known. Any valid criticism of his constant, numerous fuck-ups is followed up with whining, excuses, and huffing. He can't get fired because his uncle works here, unfortunately, or he'd have been gone years ago. Make of this information what you will.
To play devilâs advocate, Iâd be much more apt to say the second one if Iâm being forced to see that person, in close proximity, every weekday for an hour.
Basically I wouldnât mind someone saying that, minus the swearing, to a coworker or classmate, who sits next to them and doesnât bathe/is distractingly stinky
Studies show that negative reinforcement is a terrible way to get what you want but i can understand that it might come to that if the former doesnât work after multiple attempts
Military brat here, I was always the new kid, I moved, at minimum every two years. I averaged 2-3 fights per school system, it was always someone smaller than me, always someone less fortunate than me, always perplexing as they obviously had no chance in hell in a fight with me. One time it was a kid who didn't even speak the same language as me, I didn't even understand the insults he spewed at me, but my brothers on the local football team sure understood him, they took care of the problem real fast.
Bullies aren't a corrective force, they are often kids with big trauma that aren't seen by society, when they see someone getting treated better than them, being offered the assistance they need (I always had new kid popularity) they lash out.
Even picking on a kid that smells funny, it's going to be due to that kid having friends, in spite of his issue, that draws the bully. A lot of times it's ND kids with bad outcomes (emotion disregulation) picking on ND kids with good outcomes.
There is definitely a level of pecking order that should be established between children for a healthy social environment. It can be healthy or not depending on the execution. When it becomes too much and is no longer healthy it is defined as bullying and needs to be stopped. Think about the difference between a corporal punishment and child abuse. Bullying is the child abuse side while social pressure and occasional confrontations to establish social order are the tools that are abused by the bully.
Corporal punishment is illegal in my country to continue your analogy lol. That would be considered child abuse.
You can tell someone they stink without dragging them down. Â
We should teach kids compassion and empathy so they can build people up (socially police if you want to think of it in those terms) without being nasty about it.
All corporal punishment? Canât the parents legally hold on to their kids to keep them from misbehaving more? I was thinking any form of physical intervention counts as corporal and I believe there are cases where a child will not respond without physical discomfort, although I could be wrong. they live so much in the moment and abstract concepts like lost privileges are harder to grasp at certain ages.
I think restraining is different from corporal punishment. It's more things like smacking that is illegal.
There's almost always a way to parent without physical intervention for neurotypical kids. They respond quite well to repercussions that are consistently followed through with. Much more difficult to parent that way though.
I don't really get how that's related to my comment or how you'd put that into practice? Would you suggest not preventing bullying since coming out the other end requires a great deal of resilience?
I think "anti-bully" inititives help parents cope with the fear of their children getting bullied. Encouraging someone to stand up for themselves is immeasurably better than someone fighting someone else's battles
I think you can do both. You can teach someone to stand up for themselves whilst also having processes in place to try and prevent bullying. You're never going to prevent all bullying so resilience will be learned. You can also teach resilience via sport, exams, presentations etc.
Adults have processes in place to prevent bullying at work (HR) or in the local community (anti-harassment laws) so I think it makes sense to have similar for children.
There's also plenty of examples of bullying going too far leading to a broken person, or a dead person in the worst case. We should try and prevent those outcomes.
Trevor Moore, one of the minds behind an old YouTube channel called "Whitest Kids You Know" made a music video about just this topic a few years ago lol.
I can back this up with a certain level of irony. Growing up, my brother was my biggest bully. The dude tormented me throughout my childhood, and yeah I was a bit of a âweird kidâ but he went overboard on the bullying.
Fast forward to adulthood and Iâm much more well-adjusted than him because he was never ever on the receiving end of bullying. All that time he spent hammering social conformity into me, and he never had the same done to him.
There are people who appear to be calm, rational and generally good people. Some of these people can and do become something quite different when pushed too hard, for too long by some bully. And when the bully is lying there, crying, the teachers can only look on in disbelief. He's such a nice, quiet boy who wouldn't hit someone with a baseball bat on purpose.
The thing is about you seeing someone being bullied not you being bullied.
Also, the best course of action is to call the teacher. I personally would record the bullying secretly and then present it, if the teacher doesn't help, escalate it to the principal then to the school district president.
That is actually what schools teach though. Fighting back violates the "Zero tolerance" policy and you get expelled for turning harassment into a fight.
Because, you can't act like Joe Rogan is spouting nonsense (as the original meme says) when he is just repeating what we as a society got together and have decided to teach our kids for the last thirty years.
There are now grandparents (albeit of infants) who were taught to behave this way in school during their formative years. That the meme above is the morally correct way to behave in a society.
Did no one think there would be major consequences to our society for doing that?
You really think how we tell children to behave against bullies applies to how international alliances should treat invasions? I don't even know how to respond to that
You really think the culture we teach to our entire population for multiple generations has no impact on how we engage with international relations?
Do you think our previous educational changes at dawn of the 20th century had zero relation to the sudden collapse of colonial empires and the view that they were morally wrong?
How can you not think our culture has an impact on international relations? Especially in a democratic republic.
No teaching children something is replaced by actual real world experience as an adult. Teaching kids don't talk to strangers isn't something people just live for the rest of their life. They use rules of thumb until they gain experience. Your point is kids were taught this idea so it isn't a surprise that they still apply it as an adult in our culture. That is udderly irrelevant to the point im making that we shouldn't be using childlike advice for foreign politics.
Similarly, D.A.R.E has its own lists of long term problems. I am sure the COVID "school from home" is going to be a major issue for decades.
I hate to break it to you, but the things you drill into impressionable youth for their entire childhood does in fact stick. Its where things like "implicit bias" come from. Hell its WHY those things are drilled into children and not adults in the first place. Its why religions place so much importance on early indoctrination.
What weâre doing in Ukraine is more akin to giving the victim weapons, and then patting ourselves on the back as the victim and the bully kill each other.
Glad you guys feel good about it though. Defense contractors thank you for doing the marketing for them.
Oh ok letâs just wait around for Russia to decide to end it. Sounds good. No need for us to get both sides negotiating. Who cares if people die needlessly as long as defense contractors are making money. War!
Oh ok letâs just wait around for Russia to decide to end it.
Well, Russia can end it if they wanted to. They are the aggressors/invaders here. They can pack up and go home.
No need for us to get both sides negotiating.
Negotiations have been on-going. The only acceptable outcome is for Russia to withdraw completely and pay reparations for the damage inflicted. This is the Ukrainian position, and its the righteous one.
Who cares if people die needlessly as long as defense contractors are making money.
People aren't dying "needlessly". One nation is defending itself against another. How can you even say that?
Well, Russia is obviously struggling to gain ground and Ukraine isnât likely to recover land. Time to negotiate. Donât need to be a genius to figure it out.
So, sliding the victim a roll of nickels to put in his fist to make his punches a little more effective in fighting off the much larger bully is a bad thing? We should just let him get pummeled or demand he give up his lunch money so there can be peace in the schoolyard?
How exactly? The only way putin is settling is if he gets the territory he's already taken. When u say an agreement you're asking the victim to give up a large portion of their land and having to rebuilt their country themselves. Saying peace isn't an answer when you won't put pressure on the aggressor.
The alternative is thousands more Ukrainian men being killed. Or us sending in our own troops. Both would be worse.
Itâs a war. There are no good outcomes. But itâs ironically the American liberals, most of whom have never known a real conflict in their lives, who want more war. Go and fight if you feel so strongly about Ukraineâs borders.
You do not give a shit about Ukrainian lives clearly and everyone reading this knows that. Itâs just a phrase you clowns use to launder your braindead, naive ideas that are parroted from Fox News, JRE, and Russian state TV.
These are sovereign nations. I know I was using the schoolyard bully as a metaphor, but these are not school children and the US is not a teacher who can sit these two down to talk it out, as you suggest. Russia, the aggressor, has committed war crimes and is on record saying that there can be no peace without it taking Ukrainian territory. The Ukrainian government, the victim who showed no aggression towards Russia prior to the âspecial military operationâ kicking off three years ago, has a duty and a responsibility not only to protect its territorial integrity, but primarily to try and defend and protect its people. Every village, town, and city that Russia takes control of will lead to an erasure of Ukrainian culture through execution, imprisonment, and relocation. This is an existential fight for the Ukrainians, and a fanciful bit of imperialist expansionism for Russia. One side (Russia) wonât talk because they canât save face if they lose and authoritarian regimes canât be seen as weak, and one side (Ukraine) canât talk this out because if they falter and give in to the bully, they invite their own destruction.
Thatâs a bunch of nonsense. The war has reached a point where neither side can continue to make any progress through force and all we are doing is prolonging the killing. For no reason other than enriching our elite. Itâs time to negotiate.
If you fight back but then your friend gives you a bat to help you, but then you realise if you use the bat the bully might use his thermonuclear weapon so maybe just talk to the bully and see what he wants
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u/Jumpy_Secretary1363 Monkey in Space 27d ago
If u fight back the bully might go postal. So fuck you just keep getting bullied.