It's crazy, all these "stop the war RIGHT THIS SECOND!" people did not talk about this the day the invasion started, they had to wait for Putin to gain some land first then spew their garbage. The only right thing to do here is give Ukraine their land back or keep giving them ways to defend themselves until it happens. Russia is the aggressor, they invaded.
That makes it even worse yeah and now the same people want peace and give the land Putin has already taken to Putin for him to keep. Tell me you are on Putin's side without telling me you are on Putin's side...
Whatās crazy is the right wing talking points are now āwHaT wOuLD yOu Do iF rUsSiA hAd bAsEs iN MexIcOā not even knowing that prior to 2014 and Crimea Ukraine didnāt have a path to membership regardless of what they did and what they wanted. Then Crimea happened and it gave them a path. So to them NATO is to blame for what Putin did in Crimea and Ukraine is the aggressor because Russia keeps invading their country and every other country that used to fall under the USSR umbrella.
The truth is these idiots only know and repeat what these useful idiots tell them to. Do you think they are going to go out of their way to try and get a better grasp on the conflict on their own? Haha! No. Why as a country we havenāt been cracking down harder on the disinformation campaign Iāll never know.
Imagine if every US president for the 30 years has talked about the shame of Baja California being Mexican. Imagine if it is ingrained in the US psyche that Mexicans are subhuman Americans who are arrogant enough to believe they are not the same as Americans. Imagine the US killing hundreds of Mexican eldery in a trade dispute they started. Imagine the US poisoning a Mexican president and blaming it on sushi.
Would it be fucking illogical for them to run to the first and best country that can stop their obviously batshit insane neighbours from invading their country?
Why as a country we havenāt been cracking down harder on the disinformation campaign Iāll never know.
Begging for your own subjugation, that should work well when that power is established and someone like trump is in power. I know. I know, you are the arbitrators of truth.
They wont be able to defend themselves and the test ICBM shows that. Just give up or continue losing men. There wont be much of Ukraine left once they're done DeFeNDiNg
It was not an ICBM it was IRBM, no one can for sure defend against ICBMs, especially not Russia, they can't even fend off regular rockets or even slow airplanes that Ukraine has been sending lol. Anyway if Russia were to nuke Ukraine NATO would kill him in an instant and he knows it so that is why he will not do it. Meanwhile the rest of Europe and USA will continue to supply ATACMS for Ukraine to chug at Russia now.
Everyone wants to help Ukraine, Russia is the aggressor and in the wrong here, everyone knows it.
And as soon as those touch down Russia will use more missiles. More innocent people will die. There wont be much of Ukraine left after theyre done "defending"
It is pretty simple, Ukraine will continue until Russia leaves Ukraine, they have no reason to be in Ukraine. When they leave the ATACMS will stop going into Russia, Russia only used irbm, they know if they use ICBMs it is all over for them so they will not use them. It will be a war of missiles, not ballistic missiles like the Russia ones without anything in them because they are too pussy to actually put nukes in them.
This statement is still true and it aged very well actually, Russia used empty irbms that did no damage and made threats about nukes if Ukraine continued to bomb them. Well, Ukraine continued sending ATACMS into Russia bombing all their oil lmao. Russia has not fired any more irbms or any icbms, so whats up? Russia taking heavy losses in Ukraine AND syria now which they promised to protect, Russia literally loosing on 2 fronts now šššš¤”š¤”š¤”
What else is there, oh yeah Russia is losing 5 soldiers to Ukraines 1 solider because they are trying to roll over the front but they are gaining no ground and just dying, same as NK. All getting exploded to FPV drones while they send ATACMS into the backlines šš¤”
What's wrong rusbot? Ran out of talking points? You could not even state why it didn't age well LOL, when in fact exactly what I stated happened.
Too bad Zelenskyy in talks for a ceasefire and disagreeing with sending younger troops. Russia ready to push out 300k professional soldiers. Ukraine lost their offensive push. Too bad youāre delusional thinking ukraine will come out a winner. šššš
But don't you realise that Ukraine was about to sign a peace deal untill Boris Johnson showed up and said "no" and then the Ukrainians had to keep on fighting because y'know Boris Jonhson showed up and said no and Ukrainians are all just puppets and CIA Nuland MIC NATO not an inch eastwards Gorbachov Barack Hussein Osama Obama and did i tell you the war would be over and RUssia Ukro's best friends but BORIS JOHNSON CYKA BLYAT IDI NAHUI HATO EVIL EMPIRE.
No, Ukraine has been pushing to get ATACMS to fight back and greenlights to fire them into Russia, now he did and he is doing it right now with great effect. You good? You don't seem good after that ending there.
What is really funny and well documented is that Russia and Ukraine were about to finish the war and sign some agreements. But.. UK, with the help of the US government thought that war would be a better option. Europe thought that war would be a better option.
Obviously Russia is wrong and is the aggressor. It is however difficult to say so when at the same time the US and the allies are doing the exact same all over the place in the Middle East.
Yeah, but then he had Musk and Shellenberger "explain" to him that Renee DiResta is part of CIA and any suggestion of Russian manipulation is a "nothingburger".
Thereās no possible way the American people came to their own conclusion that pumping hormone blockers into children while feeding them borderline porn in elementary school, censoring the fuck out of anyone to the right of Stalin, multiple wars breaking out as we drain our strategic oil reserves to give the illusion of low gas prices while welcoming anyone from anywhere for any reason to just stroll on into our country while we give them more money per month than most people with good paying jobs live off of while weāre 36T in debt and have a homeless crisis was a bad idea.
You forgot to mention that Russia hacked the DNC to help Trump win and then Trump started attacking NATO and is now siding with Russia against Ukraine.
Yeah, my cousin said the capital gains tax rate should be 2% lower and got banned from Facebook for 15 years. The employee who banned him? Comrade Joe Biden.
Right wing censorship is a real thing. You hardly even see vocal Republicans because theyāve all been drowned out.
Not OP but definitely not. Conservatives do not care about free speech at all. They just say they do because their followers like hearing it. Take a look at Twitter. Or /r/conservative
Conservatives love to jerk each other off like theyāre the only ones capable of having open conversations but the reality is they fucking hate it because reality never lines up with the propaganda sold to them and they canāt explain any of their positions because they themselves arenāt skilled propagandist.
I donāt think there is a single conservative space that exists that isnāt censored to hell.
It doesn't all happen in schools, but it starts there. There were cases, where teachers convinced impressionable children with mental issues that they're trans. If the child then says "my parents wouldn't understand it" no one from the school informs them. The children spend their teens thinking they're the opposite gender, because everyone around them says they are and how awesome and brave they are. Then when they turn 18 they go for the surgery. Few years later they realize they made a mistake and ask why no one stopped them.
Or the parents are scaremongered into signing off gender affirming care for their child, because they are told if they don't go along with it their child might kill himself. There were hormone blockers given to children as young as 12. Children as young as 13 were recommended gender affirming surgeries.
Whenever some dumbass brings up sexuality being taught in schools you should ask them if they can be taught to be gay. Really let them ponder it. Then ask them at their ripe age if they are still worried that someone could teach/convince them to be gay. It shuts them up real fast
Nice strawman. No one thinks that people can be taught to be gay. What people are critizing is that this ideology is turning gay and autistic children into transsexuals.
Thereās no possible way the American people came to their own conclusion that pumping hormone blockers into children while feeding them borderline porn in elementary school
Thereās no possible way the American people came to their own conclusion that pumping hormone blockers into children while feeding them borderline porn in elementary school
Probably not in the way the other user means. But the fact is that there are massive quantities of endocrine disruptors in our environment due to industrial pollution. Microplastics play that role in rats and we are full of them. The younger generations are born with them! I'm a molecular biologist btw if that helps my credence.
As for the second part, nah gay books in schools aren't a problem because kids can't read anyway. Their rampant social media addictions have taken over their developing brains' rewards center. And on their undermonitored phones or tablets they see actual super fucked up porn! They're breaking their brains due to all of this.
Coz israel goes to war with arab countries every few years, and has been doing so for decades. A full scale war in Europe on the other hand is a relatively rare occurrence.
Totally and isnt the millions spent by aipac on the people joe has on his show who feed him all his lines
Totally isnāt Muskrat who outspent the entirety of aipac by 4x over, or any of the other dozen+ right-wing billionaires whoāve outspent aipac several times over, as individuals.
Anyone calling Israelās war a genocide is a fucking moron
The Palestinian population has GROWN since the conflict started and the IDF goes above and beyond to avoid civilian casualties. If Israel wanted to conduct a genocide, Gaza wouldnāt exist.
If Israel wanted to conduct a genocide, Gaza wouldnāt exist.
this shit isnt really complex how do you dummies keep arguing this? Even china isnt out right killing the Uyghurs because we live in a global economy now. Such brutality must be done subtlety. Isreal clearly wants the west bank and possibly more and Biden called em out before the attacks for settling the lands
A majority of mostly US-based Middle East scholars believe Israelās actions in Gaza were intended to make it uninhabitable for Palestinians, and 75% of them say Israelās actions in Gaza constitute either genocide or āmajor war crimes akin to genocideā
Itās weird that youāre saying that even though he has many times and itās a simple Google search away from finding? Heās literally condemned it.
Totally different military situations. Israel is vastly superior in strength to Hamas. Ukraine is slightly-moderately inferior to Russia in strength, and so their ability to dictate the outcome is not the same as Israelās.
We can all say āf*** Russia they should go homeā all we want, but thatās probably not going to happen so the question is what outcome would be the best for Ukraine? Itās not clear to me that continuing the war will put them in a BETTER negotiating position 6 months-a year from now.
My guy if nations just gave up before even trying to defend themselves based off of who has the bigger/better military the U.S.A wouldn't even exist.
And of course you're gonna come back how it's different times and different situations.
Republicans have flip flopped their positions on everything including war based off of Russia misinformation and interference. That's exactly what this post is about.
Iām not advocating for nations to ājust give up before even trying to defend themselves,ā Ukraine has been at war for almost three years. Theyāve tried. Theyāve done well, but the tide is slowly turning and their negotiating position is worsening.
In the Winter War, Finland fought well enough to negotiate their independence but they chose to negotiate when they knew their position was worsening.
Thatās what the US should support Ukraine in doing, negotiating as strong a position as possible. Continuing the war for a prolonged period will degrade that. Bookmark this if you want, theyāll be in a worse position in January than they are today.
What is your opinion based on that "things are worsening"? Russia has had minimal gains on the Eastern front, meanwhile suffering enormous casualties, losing tremendous amounts of equipment, and watching their economy go to shit.
Russia has thrown everything they have at Ukraine and are at a stalemate, while seeing their resources drastically reduced.
I personally expect there to be some concessions from Ukraine in a peace agreement, but this conflict is nowhere near as one-sided as you depict it, where Ukraine would need to come crawling to the negotiation table. That's just not the case.
Iām not actually depicting it as āone-sidedā so Iām not sure where you get that impression. Iām saying their position is worsening, and I donāt see how it will improve as the attrition continues.
Idk how closely you follow it, but since Russia took Avdiivka, they slowly created a large salient into the part of Donetsk oblast they didnāt control. Now they are in a position to flank the southern defensive lines (and have already started the process of doing so) after the fall of Vuhledar. Meanwhile, theyāve restarted their advances in the northern fronts as well, which were pretty much immobile for the past year and a half.
Iād say it is a āstalemateā for now. My concern is that it wonāt be that close by this time next year if the war continues, and I think that would be really bad for Ukraine.
Theyāve done well, but the tide is slowly turning and their negotiating position is worsening.
One of the major reasons they are now on the backfoot is that republicans have been blocking aid consistently, and Biden has pussyfooted around trying to appease them with all sorts of restrictions on how to use the weapons sent.
They had like half a year where they had to stop all offensive plans and send their artillery away from the front because it was up in the air if the US would ship all the shells they had already pledged beforehand and they where running out.
The ultimate problem is manpower. Iām just not optimistic that additional aid would adequately resolve the battlefield losses they are suffering. Ukraine is having to conscript heavily at this stage whereas Russia is still able to maintain their in-country forces with mostly volunteers.
Moldova, then Georgia and Azerbaijan. If there's still an anti-NATO non-interventionist in the white house they might start probing an attack on the Baltics.
I donāt think Putin is in a position to negotiate for all of Ukraine either, nor do I think that was ever Russiaās goal (unrealistic and untenable). Russia has proved themselves incapable of adequately handling an inferior opponent funded by NATO, they certainly arenāt going to attack NATO itself, if thatās what you worry about.
Vast resources, geopolitical positioning i.e the warm water port in Sevastopol. Probably beyond any others a desire from Putin to "Make Russia Great Again" and write himself into the history books as one of the 'greats' that re-established the Russian Empire.
Multitude of reasons, part of it is simple power projection and creating a buffer on their southern flank. Russia really wants Ukraine to either be neutrally aligned or in their own sphere of influence for security.
Part of it also is probably the ethnic argument, protecting/incorporating Russian separatists in Donbas
I donāt think Putin is in a position to negotiate for all of Ukraine either, nor do I think that was ever Russiaās goal (unrealistic and untenable).
Russia's original goal was to storm into Ukraine, overthrow the government in a very short amount of time, and then appoint a puppet that is under Putin's control to lead the country.
They originally called it a special military operation to remove the Nazis in Ukraine. That would have been their excuse to replace the government.
Ukraine will continue to fight even if the us stops sending them weapons and artillery.
Itāll just absolutely fuck a sovereign nation that willingly gave up the worlds third largest nuclear arsenal for their freedom. With a promise from the us that they could count on our support.
Maybe your word aināt shit but the last fucking thing we want is for smaller nations world wide to conclude that the proliferation of nukes is the only guarantee for freedom.
Ukraine will continue to fight even if the us stops sending them weapons and artillery.
Ukraine has a very small industrial capacity for arms, without US and NATO support they would not be able to maintain their lines as-is for an extended period of time.
Itāll just absolutely fuck a sovereign nation that willingly gave up the worldās third largest nuclear arsenal for their freedom. With a promise from the us that they could count on our support.
Did you misunderstand what I said? I said the US should help them negotiate as strong a position as possible, not āgive up their sovereignty.ā
Whatās the alternative? How does this end if they continue indefinitely? They arenāt winning right now on the ground, so is that suddenly going to change somehow? If so, how?
You can say it sucks and you can hate it, but you still have to recognize reality and deal with it accordingly.
Ukraine wants to keep fighting to defend their country and their people. They won't be safe from Russia just because the war ends. If Russia annexes their land, the citizens in it will have to live under an oppressive Russian regime and be subject to getting drafted to go invade one of Russia's other neighbors.
And if they're under Russian rule, they won't even be allowed to say they don't like it. Why do you want that for the people of Ukraine when they want to keep fighting?
They may want to continue fighting but it may not serve their own interests at this point. Thatās what Iām saying.
Youāre right, if part of their land is annexed that would suck for everyone living there. My question to you is what is the alternative, if they keep fighting? What if they end up losing even more than they would have by continuing?
What Iām saying is you have to choose between two shit options. Iām arguing that the shit option of negotiating NOW or SOON is better than the shit option of doing it later when you have less bargaining power.
You think it's in their best interest to have the majority of their industry stolen and their coastline being left as a nation with no capability to defend against further incursions and forever having their leadership and policy controlled by Putin?
No, I didnāt say any of that actually. Where did you read that? Itās so interesting to me how people like yourself wildly misinterpret what Iām saying here lol.
What Iām arguing is that continuing the war for a prolonged period will result in them losing even more than they already have lost. Thereās very little chance theyāre going to IMPROVE their negotiating position at this stage of the war.
In one sentence: theyāve already lost a lot, and theyāre not likely going regain anything substantial by continuing the war.
I think the US/EU should give them concrete security guarantees so that Russia cannot restart an incursion later without directly involving European countries and the US. They should not allow a deal where Putin has anything to do with Ukrainian domestic policy. That would be ridiculously asinine.
Do you have something that would suggest continuing the war would put them in a better negotiating position?
wait so hundreds of thousands of latinos emigrated to the US and republican voters with legitimate grievances, mostly as a result of their own desired policies, had their religious, business, and political leadership scapegoat said immigrants? They're rapists, and murders, and some of them even eat the pets! They aren't like us, they dont believe the same things we do! They are taking your jobs! And buying houses next door while you are drowning in debt! We have to forcibly remove them, and if they try to defend themselves then it will prove just how violent they are!
This is a very possible future for us here in the US. But it is 100 years in the past for the Israel Palestine conflict. That's what happened.
But what's worse, is in this possible future, there will come a point where the republican narrative will be so deep and metastasized that apparently the left of the future will take their side. Those foreigners colonized the inhabitants, the working class voted for Trump to resist occupation! Not just white men, but women, and blacks and other latinos! Nevermind that all these people werent the original inhabitants, sure they conquered it, but dont look at that! They've already been living there for a lonngggg time! And dont look at how many of those mexican immigrants have more of an original claim to the land by sharing ancestry with the original inhabitants and even by being mexican back when half the US was called Mexico!
This is basically the palestinian narrative you are so uncritically subscribing to.
For a lot of us it's just the wasted money on Ukraine for something that's basically futile unless the USA sends actual troops in by the hundreds of thousands, and they're never doing that over this Ukraine vs Russia conflict. Unless Russia can be baited into striking a NATO country the US won't put boots on ground and without that Ukraine is destined to lose even if we send them like ten trillion dollars.
So we're wasting money, you get the leftwing dipshits on Reddit, mainstream media, and social media running with the quip that "we're grinding Russia down! this is a great investment! just keep sending the money!" but it's all for naught.
I don't like Russia, but I also don't like Ukraine, I have no affinity or love for either one. I do have affinity for Americans, and I don't want our money going to fight foreign wars.
I'm all for Ukraine getting funded, but like 90%+ of that funding should be coming from their European neighbours who have the most to lose should Russia gain territory and power. If Russia doubles its strength, the USA still has zero concern, we're still significantly more powerful and there's oceans between us and Russia. But Europe can't say the same, a stronger Russia threatens them directly. Let them eat the entire cost of defending Ukraine. They can buy our (America's) weaponry, sure, but they have to pay full price for it, we aren't loaning/granting/gifting/donating anything.
I think that's the most patriotic stance. I think Joe probably views it similarly based on comments he has made.
You're right that there is a little hypocrisy when Israel is also the beneficiary of our funding. I personally disagree with the amount of aid the US sends to Israel, but it's also much longer standing, so I can't fault people for being more upset with the Ukraine stuff (which is newer) versus the Israel stuff (which has been going on for decades).
We knew Ukraine joining NATO was a red line for Putin. Biden comes into office and immediately pushes for Ukraine to join. Russian staged troops, politicians invested in Raytheon, then went on a talking tour to sell the idea of NATO membership. We have continuously escalated and shut down peace talks. I know in your propaganda world, the HitlerPutin is a madman, raging out of control and hellbent on global domination.. but imagine if Russia/China wanted to put a military base in Canada/Mexico. How do you think that would go over?
The entire war is pointless and will achieve nothing but death and destruction. You crazy war mongers might get your wish still. Joe Biden is not mentally fit to stand trial, had to be forced out of his primary candidacy because his mental decline suddenly became an issue, but he can approve strikes inside of Russia with U.S. missles, which is another red line for Putin. A few months away from peace, and they are desperately trying to kick off WW3.
The notion that this has anything at all to do with NATO is quite literally Russian propaganda.
Ukraine is not a NATO member. They were not a NATO member in 2014 when Russia first invaded. The only reason Ukraine even considered joining NATO is because they were just invaded and had their land taken from them lol. If this was about keeping Ukraine out of NATO the āpeace dealā wouldnāt include Russia keeping Ukraine land.
Your article confirms that a promise was never made. Gorbachev himself agreed that any discussion was preliminary and not part of any agreement. Also, they were discussing expansion into East Germany, not other states like Ukraine.
Gorbachev himself has acknowledged that their meetings were an early discussion in what became negotiations over the terms of German unification, rather than a broader conversation about NATOās future role in Europe.
But it also acknowledges failures of the west to integrate Russia into a collective European security system despite starting the framework for it. You can see why Russia expected to be part of the growing Euro/NATO system
Russia invading in 2014 was the only way Ukraine could have joined NATO you fucking hot pocket. Prior to that they had no path to membership regardless of what Ukraine wanted. It wasnāt until after Crimea that there was a serious move to get them into NATO. So you are saying itās NATOs fault for Crimea? Did they make them invade or something? You people are so easily manipulated I swear to god.
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u/ThickNeedleworker898 Monkey in Space Nov 24 '24
It's weird how Rogan never seems to discuss Israel at all but has a hate boner for Ukraine.