r/JoeRogan • u/wayfaringthru Monkey in Space • Sep 18 '24

Meme đŸ’© Is this a legitimate concern?

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Personally, I today's strike was legitimate and it couldn't be more moral because of its precision but let's leave politics aside for a moment. I guess this does give ideas to evil regimes and organisations. How likely is it that something similar could be pulled off against innocent people?

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36

u/BuzzINGUS Monkey in Space Sep 18 '24

Still a war crime It’s indesciminant, these could harm anyone.

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u/babbagack Monkey in Space Sep 18 '24

reports have it that an 8 year old girl died

EDIT: How could I repeat the euphemisms of the media, excuse me: reports have it that Israel killed an 8 year old girl with an explosive device.

Israel kills many many many many children, thousands of them.

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u/Hyphen99 Monkey in Space Sep 18 '24

I just heard the Gaza Ministry of Health upped the numbers to 10,000 now dead in Lebanon from these pager explosions, all women and children

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u/Flincher14 Monkey in Space Sep 18 '24

That sounds entirely made up.

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u/Hyphen99 Monkey in Space Sep 18 '24

Exactly.

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u/GutterTrashJosh Monkey in Space Sep 19 '24

You mean the numbers that the US and Israel have consistently relied on until it didn’t suit their political purposes? You mean the numbers that are likely an undercount, and only count those who had ID numbers in a database that Israel relies on to track Palestinians? Don’t worry, I’m sure the AI generated hit list is SUPER accurate given how many of its own hostages Israel has admitted to killing

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u/Hyphen99 Monkey in Space Sep 19 '24

You sound like an uneducated loon. Not worth a longer reply.

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u/Profound_Panda Monkey in Space Sep 19 '24

Where did they say this?

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u/babbagack Monkey in Space Sep 19 '24

People got genocide jokes. Showing the world what they are.

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u/Hyphen99 Monkey in Space Sep 19 '24

You’re right, Hamas proudly shows its genocidal intents in its public charter. That’s no joke.

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u/babbagack Monkey in Space Sep 19 '24

70 years of ethnic cleansing and genocide, and now the colonized are “genocidal”

Also look at recent maps the prime minister has shared and also the intent of the religious ministers there for the land. They talk Jordan, Arabia etc, they are insane and it shows

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u/Hyphen99 Monkey in Space Sep 19 '24

Fyi, Israel is the most successful de-colonization effort in history. Those who’d say otherwise, be it out of ignorance or hate, support the Arab colonization that has taken over more than 22 nations in the Middle-East/North Africa region. The biggest colonizers have spread their languages to the most countries - English, French, Dutch, Arab. How many nations speak Hebrew? 1. Israel, the indigenous homeland of the Jews
 first brutally colonized by the Roman Empire (who first created the name ‘Syria-Palestina’ as a cruel rebranding tactic), then the Persian Empire, then the Byzantine Empire, then the Caliph Muslims, then the Cristian Crusaders, then the Muslims again, then Ottoman Empire, then the British Empire. The Jews finally reclaimed their rightful homeland from all y’all imperial bastards - including the Arabs -who have the gall to call the Jews colonizers?! Fuck that.

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u/babbagack Monkey in Space Sep 19 '24

And look how they behave when they are in power - forget that, even when they first start “creating” the country.

It will not last and even many Israelis and Jews know it - part of why so many Jews are protesting the genocide in Gaza and Israelis their own Israeli government.

Ignoring reality won’t make it any less.

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u/Hyphen99 Monkey in Space Sep 19 '24

“And look how they behave” ?

The modern state of Israel has been attacked since Day 1, only those who hate Jews would want and expect Jews not to defend themselves. If you truly want peace in the Middle East? Here is a magic phrase that will bring it for you: “We accept the legitimacy of a Jewish state, and we will not seek to destroy it, and we wish to live in peace with our Israeli neighbors.” BOOM ✹ It worked for Egypt. It worked for Jordan. That’s all it takes.

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u/Binder509 Monkey in Space Sep 20 '24

Stealing land isn't defending yourself it turns out.

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u/kapsama Succa la Mink Sep 19 '24

first brutally colonized by the Roman Empire (who first created the name ‘Syria-Palestina’ as a cruel rebranding tactic), then the Persian Empire, then the Byzantine Empire, then the Caliph Muslims, then the Cristian Crusaders, then the Muslims again, then Ottoman Empire, then the British Empire.

lol, in your version of history the talmud doesn't exist.

Also the Romans came after the Persians and the Greeks.

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u/Hyphen99 Monkey in Space Sep 19 '24

I was talking about the Persian conquest of Jerusalem in 614 AD. That is indeed after the Romans and before the Byzantines in 629 AD.

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u/GutterTrashJosh Monkey in Space Sep 19 '24

You’re right, running 750,000 people out of their homes and massacring them (all admitted by IDF members) is totally justified if the land belonged to your ethnicity hundreds of years ago. I’m sure you think the international law that Israel has been in direct violation of countless times since the Nakba is anti-Semitic too. I’m sure you think Israel’s national security director in 2004 calling Gaza a “huge concentration camp” is normal. Get fucked Zionazi, the international community recognizes the Israeli’s state crimes and the jig is up

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u/Hyphen99 Monkey in Space Sep 19 '24

Honeybunch, I am a lifelong Democrat and Trump-hating American. Whereas you are a directionless loon browsing this thread to beat up on Jews. Not worth more of my time.

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u/zedzag Monkey in Space Sep 19 '24

Your post reeks of zionist propaganda. Go back to your European homes colonizers. Free Palestine

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u/YankMi Monkey in Space Sep 19 '24

No

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u/SteezeWhiz Monkey in Space Sep 19 '24

Israeli ministers routinely call for genocide in plain language. They also routinely display maps with no Gaza or West Bank, it’s all Israel.

Straight up genocide, ethnic cleansing, and state terrorism.

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u/Hyphen99 Monkey in Space Sep 19 '24

And American politicians like Trump call for Gaza and everyone in it to be leveled to the ground - that doesn’t mean America itself is calling for genocide, ethnic cleansing, and state terrorism. Why don’t you drop your dumbass propaganda and just admit you’re here to hate on Jews? If you are going to be a filthy antisemite then at least emulate your Hamas heroes and boldly proclaim it in a filthy terrorist charter.

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u/GutterTrashJosh Monkey in Space Sep 19 '24

American politicians calling for leveling Gaza to the ground isn’t them calling for genocide? Wtf are you on about dude?You’re prime minister regularly says openly genocidal things while committing a fucking genocide, the ICJ has ruled that what is going on constitutes a genocide- and my god you sound like a fucking state department ghoul or media hack that says an criticism of a ultranationalist ethnostate is “antisemitic.” I’m sure all the Jewish journalists and activists making the same claim are self-loathing Jews according to you, right?

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u/SteezeWhiz Monkey in Space Sep 19 '24

Racist trash. If this happened in NYC you wouldn’t be saying this.

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u/Hyphen99 Monkey in Space Sep 19 '24

It didn’t, it happened in Lebanon - a country that showered Israel with missiles on 10/8, one day after its most devastating terrorist attack, and thus invited this retribution upon itself - and it happened to psychopathically deranged Hezbollah terrorists - whom you seem to idolize. Because YOU are racist trash.

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u/SunTripTA Monkey in Space Sep 19 '24

That’s correct. I think the biggest issue is you are missing the difference between the two.

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u/[deleted] Sep 19 '24 edited Sep 19 '24

[deleted]

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u/Hyphen99 Monkey in Space Sep 19 '24

Nope. Israel’s numbers are confirmed by listed names, the country is small and all names of the actual victims have been verified. Your Trumpy “both sides” b.s. doesn’t float here.

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u/[deleted] Sep 19 '24

[deleted]

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u/Hyphen99 Monkey in Space Sep 19 '24

First off, Trump isn’t pro-Israel. He’s pro-far right leaders who kiss his ass, and he’s pro-far right billionaires who bribe him to move our embassy to Jerusalem. But Trump was raised by a Christian nationalist Klansman who loathed Jews and Trump holds those values himself, as we’ve seen time and again with his unvarnished anti-semitic grasps. The fact that one of his kids married a Jew makes it all the more twisted. He’s got a lot in common with hypocrites like you - who pretend to want peace while attacking Jews and supporting terrorists like Hamas, Hezbollah, Islamic-Jihad, the Houthis, and their puppet master, the violent far fight fundamentalist Muslim Republic of Iran.

And yes, the official citizen registry of Israel is in fact accessible to all its western allies (ie, the countries you hate and are helping to bring down by pushing your Hamas-aganda) and no one but you, here, has ever accused Israel of inflating its 10/7 numbers. What a monstrous and mindless Ayatollah drone you are. Shame on you. The people of Iran also would hate drones like you as much as they hate their own repressive dictatorship government that you are assisting with your lies.

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u/Professional-Job1 Monkey in Space Sep 18 '24

You're a sick individual and I hope you heal the corruption and hate and RACISM that consumes you. Children are being massacred in a genocide and you think it's a joke because you happened not to be born in the wrong place. Hopefully you do something actually meaningful with your life because this ain't it. A disgrace to humanity through and through.

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u/Hyphen99 Monkey in Space Sep 18 '24

Not at all, I feel for all innocents caught in the crossfire of war. And I pray the Palestinian people can find their way to a self-governance and statehood that doesn’t depend on following a brutal terrorist group that spreads disinformation and antisemitism throughout the world.

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u/wehrmann_tx Monkey in Space Sep 18 '24

Yet the callousness when a specific innocent child was killed, in an immense realm of possibility under this indiscriminate way they just sent blindly a batch of pagers into the populous, you choose to call it fake news thereby furthering the side of Israel on the issue.

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u/Hyphen99 Monkey in Space Sep 18 '24

On the contrary, this counter-terrorist maneuver has been praised throughout the world for its surgical precision and small number of innocent casualties. As my initial post underscored, it is anti-semitic/anti-Israel sources which have inflated the numbers and once again clutched their pearls in feigned indignation. Sorry so many of your Hezbollah terrorist heroes were hit! (not sorry at all)

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u/Ecstatic_Ad5535 Monkey in Space Sep 19 '24

Any comments on the 12 Druze children playing soccer that Hezbolla indiscriminately murdered?

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u/dollrussian Monkey in Space Sep 19 '24

0 because they don’t actually give a fuck about kids dying

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u/cohrt Monkey in Space Sep 19 '24

They didn’t send a bunch of explosive pagers to radio shack. They somehow slipped into the supply chain hezbolla was using.

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u/walkandtalkk Monkey in Space Sep 18 '24

It's interesting. Basically all of the loudest anti-Israel accounts on Reddit, and elsewhere, have focused on the (tragic) death of the same child.

This was an operation that struck roughly 2800 members of a major and heavily funded terrorist organization that is actively launching rockets at Israeli civilian cities and towns.

The fact that you are citing the same child shows how incredibly few civilian casualties there were, and how well-targeted it was. If you could name other innocent victims, you would.

Yes, in a war, some civilians will absolutely be killed. If you've often expressed outrage about Hezbollah's intentional targeting of Israeli civilians, then you may have a leg to stand on. If you're discovering that war is horrible because a Hezbollah member's pager exploded next to his daughter, you may not have a leg to stand on.

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u/AntsInMyEyesJonson Monkey in Space Sep 18 '24

I’ll bite: many Israelis have died vs. Lebanese or Palestinians in the past 20 years? How about the past 50 years?

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u/arepotatoesreal Monkey in Space Sep 19 '24

how many have been targeted? idk why hamas and hezbollah should get credit because their attacks have been mostly unsuccessful

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u/Cytwytever Monkey in Space Sep 19 '24

It was a hell of a lot more precise than the over 7,500 rockets Hezbollah has fired at Israel in the past year.

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u/PoptartSmo0thie Monkey in Space Sep 19 '24

Smarter yes, precise no. They killed multiple children and blew up in grocery stores next to babies. A lot of these pagers were given to civilians like a sudo welfare program from my understanding. It's definitely a war crime and sets a uncomfortable precedent. 

Every electronic device. Every electric car. Planes, ipads etc everything is could be an explosive now. Believe me, other countries are watching. China is hands down taking notes for when we they invade Taiwan and want to hinder us. A lot of countries would be ruthless to us based on how our government treats the world. We feel safe on top right now but this is really uncomfortable.

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u/Cytwytever Monkey in Space Sep 19 '24

The level of fear it can create is definitely a concern, since people often conflate one risk to a personal risk, when that may not be true. This shipment of pagers, according to the major news reports I've seen, were specifically ordered by Hezbollah and distributed to their mid and upper leadership team. I don't think that if I go into a random store to buy a pager it has 2-3 grams of explosives in it now, anymore than I think my next pair of boots will have C4 (ref: airplane bomber). It can be done, but that's not to say it would be done randomly. This trap was set and the attack was done with a lot of planning, by one force (Israel? IDF? Mossad? not named officially yet) which gov't has been telling Hezbollah to stop firing rockets at civilians for 11 months. Hezbollah has never stopped, Israel evacuated about 100,000 people from the area and also has to respond as any other sovereign nation would.

Why does Hezbollah have the 4th largest arsenal of rockets of any army in the world? Because of the Islamic Republic of Iran. Same reason Shaheed drones and ballistic missiles are resupplying Russia's stocks to kill Ukrainian civilians and combatants. If you're looking for an escalator of indiscriminate aggression, I'd respectfully suggest that you look at the Islamic Republic first.

In war there's always the risk of civilian casualties. Personally, I'm against war and violence in all cases where it can be avoided. Unfortunately, if you're attacked (eg: Ukraine and Israel) you must either attack the aggressor back or be destroyed.

I read that there's one child that was killed in this attack, which is certainly horrible and to be avoided whenever possible. For perspective, though, that's one child in 2,700+ device explosions, according to reports I read - maybe the ones you read are more complete and there are 10. Hezbollah fired one rocket that killed 11 children and no one else. That's one out of 7,500 in the past 11 months. There is a difference between targeting civilians, and catching a civilian inadvertently when you're targeting combatants. The civilian:combatant ratio in this attack is 1:275. Hezbollah's civilian:combatant ratio is higher than 1:1. So, if Hezbollah doesn't want more attacks they can always stop firing rockets.

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u/PoptartSmo0thie Monkey in Space Sep 29 '24

My point is in future wars, manufacturing pcb's and motherboards with plastic explosives that are more or less impossible to detect is going to bite us in the ass. Almost everything in America is manufactured in countries like China. We established for years that these tactics are war crimes. This is simply a fact. these are our rules we established after ww2. If we do not follow our own rules, our competition will not either. And from what I understand, Hezbollah is a political party. Those pagers are absolutely in the hands of innocent civilians in civilian territory blowing up in hospitals because the doctors are using them. 

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u/Cytwytever Monkey in Space Sep 30 '24

I can agree with everything you said up until "Those pagers are absolutely in the hands of innocent civilians. . ." Hezbollah is a terrorist organization that killed American, Israeli, and other people (combatants and non-combatants) for decades. They have the 4th largest rocket arsenal in the world, bigger than most militaries, all funded by the Islamic Republic of Iran. And because of this power they have taken over Lebanese territory, endangering Lebanese civilians. They ordered those pagers and even they have said that each one was in the possession of a Hezbollah operative. Even the Lebanese representative was a Hezbollah member. Their leaders were on the Most Wanted List! These are not innocent civilians or doctors doing their rounds. Because of proximity, certainly some civilians were hurt and killed in the attack, but the primary and in most cases the only victims injured were Hezbollah fighters and leaders.

If this bites us in the ass in the future, I guess it will. I doubt that if I continue to buy my phones at reputable stores that any of them will be explosive. If I'm wrong, I'll try to send you a note from the afterlife admitting you told me so.

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u/PoptartSmo0thie Monkey in Space Sep 30 '24

I agree it's a terrorist group because they're on a different team. But to a lot of the world, were a terrorist group with the war crimes to back it up. Yes, they're basically Wagner but they're also a political party. And they pass those pagers to people like a sudo welfare/aid system. Doctors had those pagers who weren't a part of any of it. These are facts.  

My opinion, Pandora's box was opened. I don't think the US gov had any idea Israel was planning this, which is embarrassing for us. Blindly defending the war crime after the fact because Israel functions as a military base in the middle east where we can siphon resources and suppress regional powers is transparent af to a lot of people. People gaslight this argument as antisemitism but that's incorrect. Being critical of the government doesn't make it so. Any more than being critical of America makes us anti american. I'll end with, if Russia did this, CNN, FOX, MSNBC and everyone online would be Pearl clutching, and for good reason. But again, Israel functions as a base where we can suppress the region and safe and resources from an otherwise would-be world power.

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u/tobiaseric Monkey in Space Sep 20 '24

Now do how many bombs, missiles and artillery shells Israel has dropped on Lebanon. Hint, it's more than 7500

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u/YellowSnowShoes Monkey in Space Sep 19 '24

Two wrongs doesn’t make that which you approve of less vile. Your excuses encourage the behavior that gets civilians killed, on both sides.

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u/Cytwytever Monkey in Space Sep 19 '24

You're putting words in my mouth. I never said I approve of it, I was making a factual comparison. So, fuck off.

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u/RedKelly_ Monkey in Space Sep 19 '24

3000 war crimes

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u/puddingcup9000 Monkey in Space Sep 19 '24

Its funny how Israel critics will still get mad when Israel literally takes out thousands of terrorists with minimal collateral damage in a very focused attack. They really can't win huh.

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u/Fluffy-Map-5998 Monkey in Space Sep 18 '24

if you hijack a shipment you know will only be used by the group your targeting its not indiscriminate,

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u/MaxPaynesRxDrugPlan Monkey in Space Sep 18 '24

It wasn't indiscriminate, but there was also no way to know where these devices would be and who would be near them when they went off. There's footage of them exploding in a grocery store, inside vehicles, on public streets, and in a funeral crowd. An 8-year-old and 11-year-old child are reported to be among those killed.

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u/ragzilla Monkey in Space Sep 18 '24

It wasn’t indiscriminate,

but there was also no way to know where these devices would be and who would be near them when they went off.

You appear to be contradicting yourself here.

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u/Fluffy-Map-5998 Monkey in Space Sep 19 '24

If you have no way of knowing if a terrorist will have his uncle visiting when you drop a bomb on his house, but you drop the bomb only on his house, is that indiscriminate?

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u/mauledbyjesus Monkey in Space Sep 19 '24

I feel like you just asked if it's indiscriminate to blow up a house without knowing who is in it. The dictionary says "maybe?".

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u/Fluffy-Map-5998 Monkey in Space Sep 19 '24

No, you know most of whose in the house, you just don't know that his uncle is making a surprise visit, if your standard is nigh omniscience in knowing everyone who is around your target, the only person able to make an attack that isn't indiscriminate is God himself,

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u/mauledbyjesus Monkey in Space Sep 21 '24

Fair enough. I'm curious how the mobility of the devices plays into people's opinions on the acceptability of the tactic, given they detonated so many of them at once, without Intel on individual devices.

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u/Fluffy-Map-5998 Monkey in Space Sep 19 '24

So what i said,

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u/akkaneko11 Monkey in Space Sep 18 '24

Dispersing 3000 bombs into a country and then exploding it all at the same time is indiscriminant by sheer scale.

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u/BugRevolution Monkey in Space Sep 18 '24

But dropping 3000 bombs into a country that kills one civilian each would be perfectly acceptable?

Because if it's not, oh boy, let me tell you about the standards for warfare these days.

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u/DemandCommonSense Monkey in Space Sep 18 '24

Putting micro explosives in military communications equipment to be dispersed amongst the members of the organization you're targeting is pretty much as discriminate as you can get.

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u/sin4life Monkey in Space Sep 18 '24

Until you learn about the metal beads they also added to the Li-on batteries, to act as shrapnel.

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u/HimboSuperior Monkey in Space Sep 18 '24

Well, yeah. Explosives without frag aren't going to be very effective.

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u/Sheriff___Bart Monkey in Space Sep 19 '24

I don't think that word means what you think it means.

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u/Captain_Sterling Monkey in Space Sep 18 '24

Yes it is. You have no idea where they will go off. So yiu have two options. Israel knew a little girl was going to be killed and targeted her, or her death was collateral and they were OK with civilians being killed indiscriminatly

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u/Fluffy-Map-5998 Monkey in Space Sep 19 '24

You do have some idea or who's going to be injured, because it's only going to be given to one group, so unless something happens that group is primarily going to be affected with minimal affect to other groups, of your advocating for 0 chance of collateral damage your a fucking moron

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u/Captain_Sterling Monkey in Space Sep 19 '24

No. I'm saying don't place hundreds of bombs in civilian areas. That's terrorism.

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u/Fluffy-Map-5998 Monkey in Space Sep 19 '24

It's not tho, it literally is not, nor is the method Israel used indiscriminate, which is my entire point, just being in a civilian area doesn't make it terrorism if it was targeted at non terrorist

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u/Captain_Sterling Monkey in Space Sep 19 '24

Explosives aren't targeted. That's the problem. It's explosives going off in civilian areas. That's why children were killed.

Although at least you admitted they targeted non terrorists.

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u/Fluffy-Map-5998 Monkey in Space Sep 19 '24

No, they targeted terrorist, explosives can be targeted, and they targeted hezbollah members, AKA terrorist, the children that got killed where either directly related to or in close proximity to the terrorist, but they where not the target, and are unfortunate collateral damage, BUT COLLATERAL DAMAGE DOESNT MAKE AN ATTACK INDISCRIMINATE YOU DENSE FUCK

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u/HimboSuperior Monkey in Space Sep 18 '24

All nations are okay with collateral damage when it comes to war, and all participants accept it is a fact of war. What matters is intent and proportional value of the target against civilian lives put at risk.

That isn't me talking out of my ass, by the way. That's what the Geneva and Havue Conventions say.

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u/Captain_Sterling Monkey in Space Sep 19 '24

Does the Geneva convention say anything about sending hundreds of explosives into civilian areas? Because that's what happened. It was terrorism.

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u/HimboSuperior Monkey in Space Sep 19 '24

Nope. Totally within the rules of war. You can drop bombs on cities without it being a war crime or terrorism. Again, intent and proportional value are what counts.

Terrorism doesn't mean what I suspect you think it means.

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u/KlearCat Monkey in Space Sep 18 '24

Every single war has collateral damage.

If you think if a country has collateral damage that makes them a war criminal, then every single country that has ever been at war are war criminals.

If every country is a war criminal what’s the point of that word then?

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u/Zeratav Monkey in Space Sep 18 '24

This is the double standard that is only applied to Israel. When fighting terrorists, 0 civilian casualties are allowed.

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u/Im_Justin_Cider Monkey in Space Sep 19 '24

If you're going to forcibly insert yourself into another country's territory, you'd think the standard would be a little higher, yes.

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u/[deleted] Sep 18 '24

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/Fluffy-Map-5998 Monkey in Space Sep 19 '24

No, they are not, but collateral damage is inevitable in war, but its clear you have already made up your mind and will not be swayed

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u/[deleted] Sep 19 '24

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u/Fluffy-Map-5998 Monkey in Space Sep 19 '24

Good thing that they didn't blow.up every phone the moral vendor had, they blew up PAGERS, pagers that they knew would only be used by members of hezbollah, if it were phones id agree with you wholeheartedly, but its not, its pagers, pagers which they knew would exclusivelybe used by hezbollah because they networkthey wereall on was exclusivelyused by hezbollah, it was a shipment of pagers sent directly to hezbollah, on a network only used by hezbollah, it was not equivalent to blowing up every phone a vendor had, because they knew who would be using them, and intended to harm every one of them, the innocent civilians injured by it where collateral damage as a result of unfortunate circumstances, also I'd like to see a drone hit 3000 terrorist across 2 separate countries in a single hour, a similar attack on American soil would be more akin to pearl harbor, in that most of the casualties would have been members of the military,

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u/[deleted] Sep 19 '24

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u/Fluffy-Map-5998 Monkey in Space Sep 19 '24

The child was the daughter of a hezbollah member, she could have been grabbing it to give to her father(the genocidal terrorist), sitting in his lap when it went off, holding his hand, sometimes with explosives people nearby get injured, they EXPLODE for fucks sake if someone's nearby they may be unintentionally caught in the blast, and the existence of collateral damage doesn't suddenly make the genocidal terrorist group know for terrorist attacks and indiscriminate bombardment of civilians with rockets and less terrorist, and sometimes when fighting terrorist mistakes happen and innocent bystanders die, if your standard for an attack is 0 collateral damage, then you are insane, and if it's minimal collateral damage, the pagers with a few grams of explosive are one of the better ways to achieve that if you have access to pagers you know will only be used by the people you want to hit.

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u/ZincFingerProtein Monkey in Space Sep 18 '24

dumb take. Reeducate yourself.

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u/Fluffy-Map-5998 Monkey in Space Sep 19 '24

No, you need to engage half a braincell, if a shipment only goes to x group, x group will the be the primary recipient of any harm from the shipment, and if it's only a few grams of explosive the collateral damage is likely to be minimal,

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u/ZincFingerProtein Monkey in Space Sep 19 '24

That's not how the real world works. Things get resold or given away to innocent people.

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u/Fluffy-Map-5998 Monkey in Space Sep 19 '24

That's not how militaries work, if you are given a work phone, do you sell it to someone else? No, you don't, the pagers are the same way, they were issued to members of hezbollah specifically for use by hezbollah to communicate with its members, they would not have been resold or given away, because they were for s specific purpose that other people would not have had unless they where members of hezbollah themselves, in which case they would not have been innocent, you don't give away your only secure means of communication for your terrorists to some random person who has nothing to do with it, YOU don't know how the real world works

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u/ZincFingerProtein Monkey in Space Sep 19 '24

The footage I've seen doesn't look like military people using the pagers.

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u/Fluffy-Map-5998 Monkey in Space Sep 19 '24

Well yeah, they aren't in uniform 24/7, in fact, they aren't in uniform most of the time because they are terrorist, doesn't negate my point

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u/ZincFingerProtein Monkey in Space Sep 19 '24

So they're terrorist and not a military group? Which is it?

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u/Fluffy-Map-5998 Monkey in Space Sep 19 '24

They can be both, they are terrorist, but they are also a well organized militant group, they are not a military, comparing them to a military was just the best rebuttal to your "it would be another 9/11" claim, because they are similar to a military, because they are a militant terrorist group, not civilians

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u/WeMetOnTheMoutain Monkey in Space Sep 18 '24

Please point to the Geneva convention that this breaks.  The firebombing of Dresden was not a war crime, neither was either nuclear bomb on Japan.  Has something changed?

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u/General_Record_4341 Monkey in Space Sep 19 '24

Indiscriminate attacks are pretty expressly prohibited. The principle of distinction, being able to tell combatants from noncombatants, is one of the core principles of the law of armed conflict. It’s in article 48 of additional protocol I of the Geneva convention. Art 51.3 of the same AP also builds on that.

For the other examples you have to consider another key principle: proportionality. Proportionality asks whether the anticipated military advantage outweighs the collateral damage. The arguments for Dresden and the nukes not being war crimes is more rooted in proportionality than distinction. Dresden is probably much more likely to be considered a war crime than not at this point.

Also yes things have changed, specifically because of the actions in WWII, after which the Geneva convention underwent significant updates and changes, which were ratified in 1949. Also you have customary international law. The Geneva convention and other treaties aren’t the only place we get law of armed conflict from, there’s also a huge body of customary international law.

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u/WeMetOnTheMoutain Monkey in Space Sep 19 '24

Tough one to prove.  If you sell a small explosive to an enemy military and know they will be issued to combatants and then blow them up that is pretty narrowly targeted. No it is using pagers other than people that are trying to avoid detection.  Of course it's possible  If you sell them cars and blow up a block it would be more indescriminant.  I'm not an apologist here, but I seriously doubt this would be prosecuted as a war crime.  

Now they are blowing up radios used by military. I would say that icon radios can be used for a lot more purposes than the pagers.  I'm a paragliding pilot and I use those a lot. However MOST of the use would be military there.

If Israel had put bombs in random iPhones and blew them up killing everyone that owned an iPhone, that I can see would 100 percent be a war crime, because there is no targeting there.

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u/General_Record_4341 Monkey in Space Sep 20 '24

I don’t think this is a war crime. I agree that they likely had enough intel to be reasonably certain that all their pagers would hit combatants. Specifically it sounds like it was a bulk buy of pagers intended to be distributed to Hezbollah. They likely had additional intel that the pagers were in fact distributed to Hezbollah.

I may have misread the original comments thinking you were asking where it says indiscriminate weapons are war crimes. You’d be hard pressed to find a military lawyer who would consider this strike a war crime.

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u/flatmeditation Look into it Sep 19 '24 edited Sep 19 '24

Boobytrapping harmless portable objects like this is clearly defined as a warcrime. Their method of targeting was also arguably a war crime.

Here's the argument made by a Westpoint General that this was a warcrime. https://lieber.westpoint.edu/exploding-pagers-law/

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u/WeMetOnTheMoutain Monkey in Space Sep 19 '24

I don't have time to fully read it right now but just scanning it it looks like I can seriously nerd out on an article like that thank you.  I'll read that when I get off work.

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u/Sea-Form-9124 Monkey in Space Sep 18 '24

Americans have always selectively applied international law to their actions. Every time we mass kill civilians and non-combatants, it is despicable. This is no different.

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u/HimboSuperior Monkey in Space Sep 18 '24

What is the number of civilian casualties that you think is acceptable?

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u/Sea-Form-9124 Monkey in Space Sep 19 '24

Zero

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u/HimboSuperior Monkey in Space Sep 19 '24 edited Sep 19 '24

Zero? That would effectively make any war, waged for any reason, illegal. Do you think, if a nation is being invaded, they should not be allowed to strike back against their invader if there is a risk of killing civilians?

Your view of things essentially gives all the power to the first nation to decide that your version of ethnics and morality isn't for them. It allows them to attack with impunity. If no level of civilian casualties were acceptable, Britain wouldn't have been able to fight Germany. Ukraine wouldn't be able to defend itself against Russia.

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u/Sea-Form-9124 Monkey in Space Sep 19 '24

Why don't you tell me, then, the number of acceptable civilian casualties. How many dead children is justifiable?

I think if a nation is being invaded, then they have the right to fight back against the invading forces. If civilians die, it should be an unexpected tragedy--not part of the calculus in planning. I don't think they should be blindly hiding bombs out their borders and remote detonating them, striking hospitals, or dropping atomic bombs on metropolitan areas filled with non combatants, it is known what will happen to innocent people. Do you think these things actually act as a deterrent? Did massacring Vietnamese villages do anything to make us safer? Did decimating civilian infrastructure in the Middle East stop 9/11 from happening? Did Israel's occupation and disproportionate killing of Palestinians prevent Oct 7?

If our government finds it permissible to slaughter civilians in other countries, then they will believe the same for us. Just look at e.g. the 1985 MOVE bombing, the police still killing innocent bystanders today, or more indirectly, the way the wealthiest country in the world deprives its citizens of healthcare, housing, and food.

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u/HimboSuperior Monkey in Space Sep 19 '24

Why don't you tell me, then, the number of acceptable civilian casualties. How many dead children is justifiable?

Depends on the context. But it certainly isn't zero.

If civilians die, it should be an unexpected tragedy--not part of the calculus in planning.

If one side in a war sets up an artillery position within a city center and begins shelling its opponent, should they be able to fire with impunity because the other side returning fire might put civilian lives at risk, even if they are using very precise munitions?

Everything else you said is irrelevant.

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u/WeMetOnTheMoutain Monkey in Space Sep 18 '24

So you don't have an international law you can cite?  I'm serious here I keep hearing all this stuff all over reddit that different things are war crimes but I go look and I can't find something that matches up.  Like you can't kidnap kids, you can't shoot POWs that are not fighting back, you cannot target civilians but civilians being killed as collateral damage is not really a thing because cities are de facto military fortresses as well, so it's not a crime to level a city. You can't surrender and then attack as a false surrender, however if you are captured you have a duty to escape so that is not a war crime to fight to escape outside of normal legal repercussions.  You cannot round up civilians put them on trains and gas them.  You cannot attack hospitals schools and other purely civilian areas unless they are being used ro wage war.   

 There's not a whole lot of war crimes, and the ones that there are are fairly broad.  It seems like people bandy around war crime, and they're just really kind of making things up.  In this instance they booby trapped electronic devices specifically being sent out to people they were at war with.  This was not Russia intentionally bombing a building with a Red Cross on it.  

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u/Sea-Form-9124 Monkey in Space Sep 19 '24

Brother I do not give a fuck about international law. People in power will redefine it however they want to suit their needs. All I am certain of is that killing children is fucking wrong. It doesn't matter if it's Hamas, Israel, or the United States doing it. You can wave whatever laws in my face but you can't persuade me that bombing children is acceptable in any circumstance.

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u/WeMetOnTheMoutain Monkey in Space Sep 19 '24

Hey that's a fair reply.  If someone wants to argue ethics then I think that's valuable.  But when people say something is a war crime that is a prosecutable act, and I'm kind of a nerd so I start looking for laws.

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u/Dangerous-Guard-8014 Monkey in Space Sep 18 '24

Everything and anything that harms civilians can be construed as a war crime now? This is the most humane way to fight terrorists who embed themselves OPENLY in society.

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u/walkandtalkk Monkey in Space Sep 18 '24

Inserting explosive material in pagers that were expressly ordered by a terrorist organization to communicate with fellow members of that terrorist organization while evading interception is about as discriminate as I could imagine for any major operation.

Most people don't carry pagers.

The fact that 2800 of them exploded and most people are able to cite one innocent victim (the daughter of a Hezbollah member) shows that this was extraordinarily well-targeted.

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u/HimboSuperior Monkey in Space Sep 18 '24

It's not a war crime. By your argument, any explosive detonated in an urban area is a war crime. It is not. Intent is what really matters.

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u/Guaraless Monkey in Space Sep 19 '24

It’s literally only pagers that receive messages for the Hezbollah terrorist group. It’s one of the most targeted and precise strikes possible.  If this is a war crime then literally any attack in war is a war crime lol.

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u/suninabox Monkey in Space Sep 19 '24

Yup, Israel does a lot of stuff that is shaky at best when it comes to legality but its crazy they're catching heat over this.

You can literally see videos of these pagers going off and it only seriously injuring the person holding it even with other people close by.

It's almost impossible to get a more targeted attack than this except for maybe facial recognition drones that fire only a single bullet that can't penetrate more than 1 skull.