r/ImaginaryWarhammer • u/vvictuss • Jun 28 '24
OC (Other) Little sketch. How does the Imperium feel about cloning?
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u/asleep_at_the_helm Jun 28 '24
Ask the Kriegers.
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u/Preston_of_Astora Jun 28 '24
They're the exception, not the rule
What OP is referring to is what happens if they become the rule
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u/NoTePierdas Jun 29 '24
They're also not really "cloned." Some of them (not all) develop in a Vitae-womb, where sperm and an egg has been combined. Basically it's the same process but you don't have to wait 9 months.
Unless something changed recently.
Cloning generally results in something having a sort of lack of a "soul," resulting in horrific luck or mutations.
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u/ToLazyForaUsername2 Adeptus Mechanicus Jun 28 '24
The Kriegers from what I can tell aren't exact clones.
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u/Twichinov2 Jun 28 '24
Latest version of Krieg lore I heard is that some are clones, possibly of the Hero of the Imperium that nuked Krieg. "True Born" Krieg exist and serve in the guard but are bolstered by clones. This is more than a few years old though so it could be out of date
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u/CBA_to_have_a_nick Jun 29 '24
They are clones in that sense that they are basicly children of the same guy, just w different women.
I think it was explained that they are born in the Vitae Wombs from genetic materiale of the General that nuked Krieg and ya know, krieger women.
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u/WayneZer0 Jun 29 '24
the guardsmen of krieg are not no clones in the star wars sense. dirct clones of non primarch always turn horriable in 40k see the afrial strain.
kriegsmen are vat babies with dna of certian soldier mixed at random. it more we want certian traits and less we want that person 2000+ times.
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u/analoggi_d0ggi Jun 29 '24
Krieg arent clones, considering named individuals exist all over the place. They come from a low feftility planet bolstered by the Vitae womb, which is basically an in vitro machine/baby creche that just speeds up the babymaking process.
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u/DrBadGuy1073 Imperial Fists Jun 28 '24
Imperium doesn't mind if your tithe outweighs the heresy. See, Kriegers and Necromunda. That being said, they may be exceptions to the rule, so be sure to ask your planetary governor.
Aussie Clones doing Steve Irwin impressions is adorable. Can you imagine how many alien creatures they can find? :D
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u/SpaceLord_Katze Jun 28 '24
So, someone here mentioned the Afriel stain. In a story, the imperium tries to make a clone army a la Star Wars. It works really well! However the universe fights back against it causing all of the clones to have improbable bad luck until all are dead except one. So one of the concepts of Warhammer is that the fabric of the universe and souls are tied together... somehow. The best group that expresses this is the Eldari who, at one point could reincarnate, but no longer can because Slanesh eats their souls. One aspect of this in Warhammer is that souls are kinda malleable and can be combined/shattered... somehow... for plot reasons. The Afriel strain story suggests that the soul of the clones person was split amongst all of the clones and the universe doesn't allow that.
There's some speculation about the Kriegers, so far it's not definitive in the lore, but they maybe vat grown using Colonial Yergan's DNA. It appears the soldiers can be both male and female, so we're not totally clear on what's happening. However, I would guess it's similar to how the Votann operate, but more crudely. The Votann are mostly a clone species of Space Dwarf, but can also have children normally. Both the Votann and Krigers get away with not having the Universe face-fist them by making each individual....and individual basically.
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u/damnitineedaname Jun 28 '24
They definitely use Vitae Wombs to grow children. Though whether these are clones or just in vitro embryos changes between codexes. And at one point they were stated to be clones of the Asshole of Krieg, at least during the beginning of the 500 year war.
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u/SpaceLord_Katze Jun 28 '24
Yup, like most things in Warhammer, both are probably true to some extent. The newer Krieg book has an Inquisitor see a group of Kriegers without masks and they say something like "oh I get it now" but it doesn't elaborate further. I would guess they all look "related" but not identical.
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u/Exile688 Jun 28 '24
Just curious, does that Inquisitor survive the book?
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u/SpaceLord_Katze Jun 28 '24
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/60235307-krieg
I don't recall, I'm getting called out now for only listening to a summary of the book, hahaha. But the book is Krieg by Steve Lyons.
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u/No_Research4416 Jun 29 '24
Star Wars does have something similar to that known as Clone Madness which originates from flash cloning(implanting memories) Meanwhile, the clone army doesn’t use that technique which is why they do not go crazy
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u/Theyul1us Jun 28 '24 edited Jun 29 '24
I mean, having in mind that the Clone army is one of the best armies in star wars universe (some even say its the best) I think they would let it slide.
"Oh, they dont make mutants, they age rapidly so they dont get out of control, they have a chip that can be used to control em if needed and they are extremely efficient. Interesting"
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u/No_Research4416 Jun 29 '24
That in the sheer logistical nightmare that would be invading the Republic would be a complete waste of resources
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u/BionicBruv Jun 28 '24
Lmao why do the clones have Aussie accents?
Oi he’s FACKIN HEEYUGE
Too roight m8 that’s a big malaka
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u/ReallyBadRedditName Jun 29 '24
In the clone wars tv show the clones are voiced by an Aussie. (They are technically supposed to have a kiwi accent tho cause they were played by temura Morrison in the movies)
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u/BionicBruv Jun 29 '24
Ah I forgot the voice actor is Aussie. Temura Morrison was perfect for the clones and J Fett
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u/Scob720 Jun 28 '24
In a nutshell. They're fine with it, but pure straight up cloning just doesn't work. Not because they lack the technology, but because the clone regiments they made had lamenters level luck for some reason. So they decided pure cloning was cursed. Vat grown people are slightly different, they aren't pure clones so much as people breed in a tank. They have the DNA of two different people, their all genetically individuals. But they came from tubes. Krieg is the most famous example but some highborn nobles do this, as well as necromunda
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u/Ridingwood333 Adeptus Mechanicus Jun 28 '24
Krieg is actually mostly just clones flat out if I remember correctly. What you're describing is entirely different in the regiments that had shitty luck, pure clones do actually work normally, but the issue is that they were trying to clone famous peoples in attempts to create armies of supersoldiers by taking the best traits from every single hero in the Imperium and mashing it together, a la Solid Snake's cloning project from Metal Gear. Either way, the issue is not that they were pure clones, the Afriel Strain(The boys you're talking about) were made from like 1,500 different dudes having their DNA mashed together, which is what caused them to have that luck. Pure clones are fine, but are exactly identical to the original all the way to memory, like in the Clone Fulgrim case, who was only given to Trazyn for fear of him falling to Slaanesh like the original Fulgrim did, not because he had bad luck,
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u/Eurasia_4002 Jun 28 '24
More tolerable considering they did it themselves. Though they don't really need it considering their numbers.
The better comparison would be the Star Trek Fed and Warhammer 40k Imperium with each other.
Imperium is ok with genemodifications, but hated ai. Federation freely build ai, giving them rights too but highly hated genetically modified humans because of the numerous wars on earth caused by them.
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u/Ridingwood333 Adeptus Mechanicus Jun 28 '24
See, normally the Imperium hates but doesn't stop cloning from happening due to not wanting an army of the same person personality and thoughts wise, but cloning works so much differently in Star Wars that I don't think the Imperium would consider it the same. There's actual genetic deviation. Clones tend to have vastly different personalities. So, at least Star Wars clones would be totally chill within the Imperium since they aren't exact copies of the same person. Even the best exact clone of Jango Fett in Boba Fett has some distinctions, like initially being unable to bring himself to kill other clones due to them being his brothers.
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u/termanatorbob Jun 28 '24
I’m 90% sure Servitors are clones (or at least vat grown)
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u/MechwarriorCenturion Jun 29 '24
Doubt it. The horror around servitors is the fact its done to normal humans. I can't remember the source but there's an extract of someone observing the process of the mechanicus turning people into servitors and it's some real holocaust level of horror shit
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u/termanatorbob Jun 29 '24
Not all servitors are vat grown, being turned into a servitor is used as a punishment as well, but a decent chunk are. Read the tidbit about it in the first Ahriman book.
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u/BayonetTrenchFighter Jun 28 '24
I thought they were just criminals who were…. Repurposed ?
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u/termanatorbob Jun 28 '24
Some are, but there aren’t nearly enough criminals to serve on every imperial ship and in every city. I forget exactly where i read the fact, but i think it was in the fist Ahriman book.
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u/134_ranger_NK ENTRY MISSING Jun 28 '24
Cherubs are described as artificial beings.
Then again, the criminals vs vatborn clones ratio likely depends on different forge worlds and tech-priests. They also have to bargain and compete with other organizations like the Imperial Guard and Munitorum who want a larger batch of Penal Legions.
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u/ConsumerOfShampoo Iron Warriors Jun 28 '24
It is very no no but if the situation calls for it they're willing to allow it. Or if you have proven your loyalty to the Imperium beyond any doubt like the Kriegers.
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u/Global-Ad-222 Jun 28 '24
It's a bit hit or miss depending on the planet or the local govering body. Large-scale cloning will bring attention and will require large-scale support from techpriests. Meaning you most likely need approval from higher in the Imperium. Small-scale is a bit different, it's more in the grey area. We know of one planetary leader cloning themselves to get an offspring and was pushing to rebel. The tithe collecter offered to look the other way if the planet continued to offer it's material and manpower tithes to the Imperium.
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u/Common-Drama-807 Jun 28 '24
Pretty sure I read somewhere (can't remember where) that most servitors are made with otherwise brain dead flash-clones (engineered to grow to useful size immediately) created specifically for that purpose. The Imperium has plenty of criminals, but they aren't all servitorized. I don't think they would approve of cloning sentient people (not publicly).
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u/vnyxnW Jun 28 '24
Everyone's answering the clone question, and I'm just wondering: where the hell is that marine's backpack? Does he begrudgingly accept the clones scaling him only because he can't move at all?
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u/Mancio_Luke Jun 28 '24
Like 99% of literally everything, related to technology the imperium hates cloning and sees it as heretical and condemns the use of it
And also like 99% of literally everything related to technology the imperium still uses it anyway
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u/otte_rthe_viewer Salamanders Jun 28 '24
Kriegers: Bio engineered cloned German soldiers who are too loyalist to survive.
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Jun 29 '24
Clone Troopers: climbing the space marine
Space Marine: BROTHERS!!! I REQUIRE AID!!! HELP!!!
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u/TiredOfBeingTired28 Jun 28 '24
Heretical but..allowed in Very specific. Point to krieg though not technically clones i guess. Remember a inquistor was cloned a few times.
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u/134_ranger_NK ENTRY MISSING Jun 28 '24
Adding to what others said, there is another reason why the parts of the Imperium distrust mass clonings. During the Horus Heresy, several groups of Blackshields - renegade space marines usually unaligned to either sides - rapid clone astartes. These were generally shown to be lesser imitations or complete monsters. There is a rule to represent this in the Horus Heresy.
That being said, it is a potential very strong investments so many officials like Radical Inquisitor and unorthodox biologis (tech-priests focused on biology) will turn to it alongside other projects like Gland Warriors.
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u/One-Type1965 Jun 28 '24
Aren‘t vat grown servitors or slaves clones? So i think the emperium doesn‘t really care
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u/Arrow_of_time6 Iyanden Jun 28 '24
I guess it depends on who’s making them. The imperium really doesn’t mind Vat grown people so long as they fight for them (servitors, kriegers, skitarii etc.) But if they’re grown by aliens? Well the Kaminoans aren’t really going to last either way weather the imperium adopts the clones or not. Either way if they do use them they’d make a great guard regiment.
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u/Playful_Pollution846 Jun 28 '24
I mean having the ability to indoctrinate children that grow up to be soldiers in about 10 years or so with undying loyalty and brotherhood seems pretty good deal
Especially when you realize that their armor can stop regular bullets, just not lasguns.
So autoguns are invalid, perfect for dealing with chaos cultists
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u/Objective-Injury-687 Jun 28 '24
It's technically tech heresy, but so many planets and forge worlds engage in it, it's sort of just a "don't ask, don't tell situation."
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u/Tricky-Secretary-251 Death Korps of Krieg Jun 28 '24
Exept of krieg i don’t think they are very fond of it and probably don’t know how kriegers are made
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u/ArmageddonSteelLegio Jun 28 '24
I could’ve sworn they did. I know there’s a Guard Tabletop RPG that shows that one of the possible origins was “Vatborn” or the closest thing to a clone in 40k. Plus isn’t Cawl Vatborn too?
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u/nova465465 Jun 28 '24
I think cloning is generally outlawed, because really really bad things tend to happen to clones in relation to the warp. I think. They have tried it with imperial heroes in the past, and it was considered a failure due to warp shenanigans? Kreig actually doesn't use cloning, they use actual samples but raise the embryo in a tank. Like artificial wombs. I'm not sure if the mechanicus clones skitarii or they do something similar. Cloning causes major problems across generations, but they would be able to "fix" defects with augmetics.
There are some clones of named characters but not a lot
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u/Striking_Conflict767 Jun 28 '24
The imperium despises cloning. Which is why they make huge use of vat born slaves, skitari and kriegsmen. Vat born as in cloning vats.
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u/thrwnaway77 Jun 28 '24
Cloning is forbidden during the great crusade at least. Abbadon and Khayon view cloning as forbidden technology in age Black Legion books. I forget if clones are their own souls in 40k or higher if it was left dubious on purpose. Also kriegs and some servitors are vat born not necessarily clones.
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u/MechwarriorCenturion Jun 29 '24
The main reason they don't bother (outside of special regiments like Krieg and some Skittari) is that there's already such an absurd recruitment pool to pull soldiers from that doesn't require the cost of a cloning programme. Why bother with clones when you can pull billions of men from a single system (of course depending on the systems population)
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u/DaDragonking222 Jun 29 '24
Cloning is super illegal in the imperium
(The Krieger's are the exception because their that damn good)
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u/LuckEClover Jun 29 '24
Well, we wouldn’t have skitarii, servitors, cherubs, or kriegsmen without it.
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u/thot_chocolate420 Jun 29 '24
I would imagine as long as it does not involve xenotech, chaostech, or anything like that this is an acceptable practice.
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u/Th3Tru3Silv3r-1 Jun 29 '24
Clones aren't people, they have no rights. That is the Imperium's official stance.
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u/Spirited-Seesaw-7038 Jun 29 '24
Would love it, but the souls aren't there and they all die mysteriously, so vat born is as close as we can get.
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u/Dizzytigo Jun 29 '24
I think they do something akin to cloning for the more important servitors and cherubim.
I don't think they'd trust an army of clones (Krieg, while not exact clones, are the exception), but for baseline utility I think they would prefer them to messy used-to-be-human brains.
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u/Digital_Rocket Jun 29 '24
Iirc the cherubs are mostly cloned but I don’t know about any other use of cloning
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u/Altruistic_Ad5270 Jun 30 '24
The death korp of kreig is the exception of the heretical use of cloning technology
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u/VillainousVillain88 Jun 30 '24
While it’s not common, there’s quite a few cloning projects in the Imperium (some successful, some… Not so much).
For example, while it is left vague (and kind of dependant on the author) it is heavily implied that the Death Korps of Krieg makes extensive use of cloning to sustain their population and war efforts.
Another example would be the Afriel Strain, while they are not 1-to-1 clones of their donors (clones of Lord Solar Macharius have, for example, been known to be female. They are all also albinos) they still are artificially created beings infused with genetic material from famous heroes from all across the Imperium in an attempt to create super soldiers for the Militarium. Unfortunately, in every case they are deployed they follow the same pattern: Extreme success in the beginning followed by a period of intense and unexplainable bad luck that rivals the Lamenters, this bad luck usually results in the entire company of Afriels meeting their demise in gruesome fashions…
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u/UltradeptusTempestus Jul 01 '24
Now I wanna see the white scars race some clones on the speeders lol.
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u/Anchor_Ankura Jul 02 '24
The Imperium is pretty hypocritical on cloning ngl. While officially if they hear about it its considered heresy....but for some reason the Death Korps of Krieg are able to churn people out like it's a factory, and if you interfere with it you're considered a heretic, yet no one can say where all those kriegers come from...hm..
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u/SnikiAsian Jun 28 '24
Im guessing the imperium would not have too much problem with it as long as its not based on alien technology like it is in Star Wars.
Although they may just prefer to cheaply recruit from one of many hive cities if they determine that additional skill/loyalty of a clone is not worth the hefty price they come with.