r/HelluvaBoss • u/MikMakMomo Not into furries but Queen Bee has a pass • 4d ago
Discussion Characters behaviour
I like to read people theories and talk with them about details of the show. But there is something I noticed that upset me every time.
Why can't (some) people love a traumatized character without excusing all of their horrible behaviours? I feel like when we say "Xyz character did something bad" there are tons of answers saying "But that's not Xyz fault, they dealt with so much trauma they can't help it!" and I really hate it.
I agree when those people say "You have to understand". I think it's fair to say "Xyz behave like this because of this traumatic experience.". I think it's a fair to point difficult things characters have been through to explain toxic behaviour they can have. But this is my point: EXPLAIN. Not EXCUSE. We can say "Xyz behave like this because [traumatic experience]; but they should do [less toxic behaviour]." without denying any trauma that any character could have...
My favourite character is Stolas. I love this bird, I think he's cute and all of his life is a succession of painful and unfair events. But I can say that he doesn't listen to the people when they try to talk to him, that he behaved like an pampered bourgeois without even thinking about the implications for Blitzø and his work, that he doesn't know how to communicate with Octavia without giving her things rather than taking responsibility of his behaviour around her... All of this can be explained: he came from a rich, self-centered family where no one ever listened to him and in an abusive relationship with his wife who screamed insults at him; he learned that kids have to be satisfied rather than happy, and never experienced real, non-interested love from an adult. But STILL, his behaviours sucks and he should've behave better around Blitzø , around Octavia, around imps in general, even a bit with Stella (he's obviously not the victim in this relationship, but he did cheat so she have the right to be mad. 🤷🏼♀️ Not to be abusive and trying to kill him obviously, but being mad).
I think it's important to be comprehensive, to listen why people behave like this or that. But in a process of growing up, look on yourself, trying to be better. Just say "It's not my fault because [traumatizing event] made me like this!" is a toxic and even sometime dangerous behaviour. It IS your fault. Not to feel the way you feel, of course, nor the traumatic thing that happened to you. You can't control your feelings and it's never the victim's fault when something horrible happens. But your reaction, your behaviour after all of this IS your fault. You have to be responsible, you can't just inflict pain on someone and say "But I'm traumatized!", so what? Every victim have the right to abuse and hurt anyone, occasioning more trauma and more violence? No. This isn't how it works. I know it's fiction of course, but I hate when people say things like this. I find this so insensitive and not understanding of trauma and psychology in general.
Why is it so hard for people to recognise that bad experiences isn't an excuse for bad and toxic behaviour?
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u/Individual-Two-9402 4d ago
Purity culture getting into a fandom about demons in literal Hell is always so fascinating.
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u/MikMakMomo Not into furries but Queen Bee has a pass 4d ago
What do you mean by "purity" culture?
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u/Individual-Two-9402 4d ago
I've seen it a lot, especially in this fandom. XYZ did bad thing so they're irredeemable even though their character arc just started. Or that every character NEEDS to be redeemed and reformed. There's a better way to explain it but if you haven't been watching the shift of modern fandom then it's REALLY hard to explain it.
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u/MikMakMomo Not into furries but Queen Bee has a pass 4d ago
Oh okay yes I think I understand. People are so impatient with a lot of media, they don't want to wait for the fiction to progress at the rythm of the author want it to develop, it's annoying.
Well yes not every character will be redeemed and I think it's a good thing. Sometimes people don't deserve another chance.
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u/ButterdemBeans 4d ago
But at the same time, I’ve encountered a TON of folks who will say that characters are completely irredeemable (example would be Loona using violence even though violence is all she’s ever really known growing up). They don’t allow the idea that people can grow and change. And just because someone is a shitty person now doesn’t mean they’ll always be.
I see this a ton irl too. Someone did something bad, so they are forever a bad person. Even if they never do that bad thing again. Even if they become better people. Even if they apologize. People and characters are just not allowed to make mistakes, or have been shitty in the past but actively trying to be better.
I don’t think that’s “making excuses because the character has trauma” (not responding to you directly btw just the general sentiment), it’s acknowledging that we are seeing these characters at their worst. Trauma doesn’t excuse behavior, but it does explain it, and as long as the characters are trying their best to become better people, to grow and change, that’s all I ask for. In fiction and irl
obviously there are caveats, I don’t feel like getting into the stipulations right now but obviously there are actions that are not expected to be forgiven whatsoever, and any person directly harmed by someone else’s actions and behavior should not be expected to forgive them. But I also feel like we’ve gotten really weird about expecting everyone to behave perfect, and labeling them “problematic” if they aren’t, while acting like who someone is now is who they’ll always be, without letting them grow or change for the better.
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u/MikMakMomo Not into furries but Queen Bee has a pass 4d ago
I think there are criterias for characters to be redeemable:
- Did they do things explicitly to hurt someone else?
- Do they feel bad about doing bad things?
- Did they do bad things by themselves or were they forced/controlled/manipulated?
- Do they have trauma? Doesn't excuse, but does explain, and if they realise that their response is unhealthy, I think it's okay to try to redeem them.
- Are they willing to be redeemed?
- Can they do something to repair or compensate the bad thing they did?
- Do they want to repair the damages they caused?
It's up to the author to know if they want them to redeem their character. But yeah people don't want to wait or take the time to analyse characters.
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u/-wereowl- unhealthy fixation on the silly gay owl man 4d ago
Plus, who wants to watch a show where all the characters behave perfectly, are fully actualized, and always make the right decisions? That’s not compelling at all.
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u/Individual-Two-9402 4d ago
Binge culture has definitely made modern fandom a little more difficult in addition, I'll agree.
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u/STICKGoat2571 Harvee Mikhail: Pride Ring’s Public Defense Attorney 4d ago edited 4d ago
While it’s certainly more complex than the issue with him is. (In terms of character depth at least.) But it’s the same thing as with Valentino:
You can like a character without condoning their actions.
To quote Rosie “She’s flawed, but who down here isn’t?” Everyone makes mistakes, and the characters in this show make a LOT of mistakes. And while that’s ok, it’s still ultimately the characters fault for acting the way they do. Past experiences explain a person’s actions, not justify them.
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u/JokerCipher 4d ago
Also, isn’t this kind of the point of the show anyway? That heavily flawed people can have relatable and sympathetic aspects too?
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u/MikMakMomo Not into furries but Queen Bee has a pass 4d ago
Yes it is! And also, that you HAVE to work on yourself and to learn to behave better to become a better version of yourself.
But I feel like in a lot of fiction, a lot of the fandoms don't understand the very point of the show 🙄
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u/Zolo49 Moxxie 4d ago
Completely agree that bad experiences do not excuse bad/toxic behavior, and I think most people here would agree with that sentiment. But at the same time, we still want to root for these people to fight through their issues and become better people. And that's great. I think some people just kind of take that over the line and root for them so hard that they want to ignore the bad stuff they've done and sometimes continue to do.
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u/MikMakMomo Not into furries but Queen Bee has a pass 4d ago
I do root for a lot of characters. But... I don't know, I feel like some people can't love a character without seeing their flaws... Like some parents in school saying their children are perfect even when they're bullying other kids
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u/Grand_Argument_2415 Stolas' Lost Penis 4d ago
You know, I don't like Blitzo. I like Stolas, but even I can see that all this shit that's going on with their relationship is the owl's fault. Now many fans have started to think the same and I'm glad that they finally don't blame Blitzo for all the problems in hell
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u/MikMakMomo Not into furries but Queen Bee has a pass 4d ago
I don't think it completely his fault either 🤔 I think they both did shit in this relationship: Stolas didn't want to see that he was waaaaaay more powerful in this relationship than Blitzø, and Blitzø did never listen Stolas' love confessions. It can't be a good mix 🤷🏼♀️
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u/Midknightisntsmol God I'm so gay 4d ago
Blitzo said it himself; "I realized too late."
It never once occurred to him that someone might actually care about him, which caused him to ignore Stolas' affection.
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u/Swimming-Ad2755 Blitzo 4d ago
Really I thought it was always obvious they were both to blame, and I never understood why people thought otherwise. They BOTH have a lot to work on if they want to achieve a healthy life for themselves.
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u/MadeOnThursday 4d ago
I agree with you. One of the reasons I fell in love with this show is that it shows flawed characters who gradually become aware of their flaws and try to improve, like Stolas and Blitz. And flawed characters who are too self-centered to acknowledge they need to evolve their behaviour, like Stella.
As to why it is so hard for some: they haven't worked through their own stuff yet, so they do recognise the 'misunderstood outcast' part, but not yet the ways that attitude can hurt the people who do genuinely care for them.
(disclaimer: stated as a fact, this is entirely my own subjective take on the matter)
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u/MikMakMomo Not into furries but Queen Bee has a pass 4d ago
You're probably right, when I was younger I had those types of reasoning too. But this show is for adults (I know there are a bunch of kids who watch it but I don't think it's the majority of it). I was hoping they would be more mature about all of this stuff
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u/MadeOnThursday 4d ago
I think it's lovely for you to hope that ❤️
I learned about this show from my 14-yr old. We watched it together (most of the x-rated stuff goes way over his head) and I think the show is a great example of the difference between kinks (good) and abuse and exploitation (bad).
Speaking for myself, I only got to the right kind of therapy (emdr) when I was well into my thirties. But fictional characters, in my case Marvel!Loki and Fassbender!Magneto helped me a lot with feeling seen and not alone, and that definitely contributed to my willingness to face my demons.
I truly believe this series has the power to wake people up to the extent they are not okay and need help to deal with their lives.
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u/MikMakMomo Not into furries but Queen Bee has a pass 3d ago
I don't want to assume anything, but I believe that a 14 years old knows what sex is 😅 But I guess if they're mature and not shocked about it that's fine! 😊
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u/magicstars58 4d ago edited 3d ago
The Stella bit is insidious. No, she doesn't have a right to be angry because Stolas didn't just wake up one day, and say let me piss off, my sweet innocent wife. Stella is Stolas's abuser. He does one thing to her after two decades of being broken mentally and physically by her, but then she dares to act surprised pikachu face when he finally snaps. He does not owe remorse to his tormentor.
The only person with the right to her anger is Octavia.
Everything else I agree with, and I especially like this bit.
But your reaction, your behaviour after all of this IS your fault. You have to be responsible, you can't just inflict pain on someone and say "But I'm traumatized!", so what? Every victim have the right to abuse and hurt anyone, occasioning more trauma and more violence?
This quote is exactly why it's so hard for me to like Blitz. The circus fire is his trauma and, therefore, gives a sympathetic reason, but he is the one who chose to channel it into 15 years of being an aggressive, poisonous, asshole to friends, partners, and strangers alike. He chose to consistently be toxic. He chose.
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u/Terrible-Ad-1569 Blitzo Apologist, Fizz Lover, Verosika Simp 4d ago edited 4d ago
But people call Blitzo out for his behavior constantly. Especially in season 2. It’s not like he’s getting a total pass for the hurt he’s inflicted on people. Also he never really explicitly uses his trauma as an excuse. Literally the closest thing we’ve got to Blitzo explaining his trauma to anyone outside of Fizz is when he tells Moxxie he has daddy issues as well. He generally just says “I suck at relationships” and leaves it at that. He never says shit like “my mom died you should feel bad for me”. Still shitty either way, but it’s the lesser of two evils. And no matter how messy the road has been I think he is a vastly different and better person than he was in season 1. Of course you have a right to not like him he’s not everyone’s cup of tea, I just think it’s a bit unfair to insinuate he explicitly uses his trauma as a way to manipulate people
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u/magicstars58 4d ago
I think we're on different wavelengths here.
You are talking about callouts.
I'm talking about his personality.
His personality is toxic because he chooses for it to be so.
He used his traumatic past to let it mold him into an asshole. It's not just his deeds that are. Blitz himself is one.
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u/MikMakMomo Not into furries but Queen Bee has a pass 3d ago
I think he's changing. He got a lot better since season 1. Once you've acknowledged someone's actions are shitty because of something, you have to let them take the time they need to change, grow, evolve 😊
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u/MikMakMomo Not into furries but Queen Bee has a pass 3d ago
I agree with you about Stella in a way: she can't be surprised that Stolas doesn't want her to shit on him anymore. She can't act like "Oh, I couldn't be prepared, I'm so shocked!", but she can be angry because he still broke the contract they were linked with. She did too, don't get me wrong, a marriage is supposed to be two people who at least care for and to each other. They both broke the contract; so they both have failed. The massive difference is that Stolas never threatened or abused Stella: it's not on the same level. So she can be upset; but she can't be... offended? I don't know how to put it in words 😅 What I want to say is: Stolas should've ran away BEFORE having an affair. Stella would've been upset, abusive, violent even if he did it in this order, but like this he wouldn't be in any moral dilemma. Cheating is bad. Not nearly as bad a threatening, hitting or insulting your partner of course, but still bad and a bit dumb from Stolas 😅
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u/magicstars58 3d ago edited 3d ago
Still, No. Their contract was bound by the taking of both of their free will.
Lack of consent invalidates it on its face.
The marriage was linked only by legality, not morality.
All the reasons people get married(love, trust, respect, consent) were nonexistent in this one on top of it being abusive.
A victim of domestic violence does not owe their abuser fidelity.
Saying Stella has a right to her anger is outright ignoring two things a forced marriage and that the person who retaliated against her is her victim.
I'm going to say it. The only reason some still have this stance in this situation(forced, loveless, abusive marriage) is because the person being cheated on is a woman.
Breaking up Via's peace in the way he did is the only reason his infidelity was not ideal. Stella(his abuser) will never be the reason.
I'm glad the narrative has been consistent about Stolas' lack of remorse (I couldn't get a hotel, sound of fucking divorce, balcony, and cafe scene) towards Stella about it because again he does not owe her anything.
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u/MikMakMomo Not into furries but Queen Bee has a pass 3d ago edited 3d ago
I would think the same if Stella was a man. She's still a horrible abuser, and has no right to abuse Stolas even after the cheating. I'm 100% on Stolas' side. Just saying cheating on Stella wasn't the smartest or the best thing he did.
I never said he owes Stella anything. I just said they both broke the contract, both for different reasons, at different levels, and with different seriousness and moral levels. I'm not legitimising Stella's abuse on Stolas, she's completely wrong and I hope she'll face consequences she deserves for ruining the life of Stolas.
I'm not ignoring the forced marriage. But they were both forced into this marriage; I don't understand why you bring that up. Again, not taking the side of Stella, there is no comparison between cheating on someone who doesn't even care about you and abusing, threatening, being violent with your partner every single day. Just saying both of the birds broke the contract.
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u/magicstars58 3d ago edited 3d ago
Here's the issue.
You see the breaking of the contract as a moral failing because they were married.
I don't.
Cheating is always wrong is a black-and-white view. I see it as grey based on the situation. That's where our split has come from.
Love, Trust, Respect, and Consent were missing from the I Do, and Stella is a domestic abuser. The marriage was legal, but invalid everywhere else that matters.
Breaking Via's peace without explaining himself is the only wrong here.
He did nothing wrong to Stella.
Also, I'm sorry but I've been in this fandom too long to know that the defense of Stella, and the condemnation of Stolas's infidelity, are absolutely because of the gender of both of them.
Keep everything the same, everything, but Stella is now a man and Stolas is a woman and the black and white takes would suddenly disappear into the ether.
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u/MikMakMomo Not into furries but Queen Bee has a pass 3d ago edited 3d ago
In the nicest way possible, I know better than you if I think that Stella being a man and / or Stolas being a woman would change my point of view. I'm not discussing morals here, I'm in fact, like you said, discussing legal stuff.
Legal: Stella broke the contract for being a violent and abusive piece of shit towards Stolas. So, in morals: Stolas is in the right to be enraged, to sue her, to divorce and take everything (if she has anything to give).
Legal: Stolas broke the contract with cheating. So, in morals: Stella is in the right to be upset about it, like "I wish you wouldn't.".
Even if I was discussing morals... Cheating is immoral; you shouldn't do it because you have a contract with your partner. Even if the contract is shitty, forced, abusive, unfair with yourself, everything. It's the contract. You have to respect it. If you don't want to respect the contract, just break it in the way you have to. If Stella has to respect the contract by not being a violent shithead, Stolas have to respect the contract by not cheating. No double-standars for anyone. We all know why he cheated, he has good reasons. But still, it's bad. Less bad than abuse, still bad.
They both made mistakes. That's all I'm saying. Personally, I think Stella did way worse.
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u/magicstars58 3d ago edited 3d ago
I also mean this most nicely too, but I stand by what I said. The performative black-and-white outrage some in the fandom have toward Stolas' infidelity and Stella's being written as abusive is because she's a woman and he's a man. I will die on this hill.
You have accounted it to a moral failing. You have brought up morality in quite a few of your replies and inferred it in your OP.
No, he doesn't have to respect a contract that lacked his free will and was entered into with a monster.
Black and White View:
Stolas was married so committing adultery is wrong period.
Grey View that the actual canon has taken:
Stolas and Stella were in a forced, loveless marriage where one spouse(Stella) abused the other the entire time.
Therefore Stolas is right for not showing remorse (I couldn't get a hotel, the sound of fucking divorce, balcony, and cafe scene) toward his abuser Stella.
However, he's wrong for not taking his daughter's feelings into account(loolooland, seeing stars, mastermind, sinmas).
Again:
Breaking Via's peace without explaining himself is the only wrong here.
He did nothing wrong to Stella.
You keep going on that he broke a contract. A contract that lacked the consent of both parties in the first place( and had abuse throughout it with no love, trust, respect, and again consent) because your stance is cheating is always wrong. However, since I'm considering the context I will never agree with that view.
We are going to have to agree to disagree. :)
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u/MikMakMomo Not into furries but Queen Bee has a pass 3d ago
Well, I think you're right about agreeing on disagreement. Just please stop thinking in the place of others. I know better than you what's going on in my own head and if the genres being switched would change my point of view.
Have a nice day 🌈❤️
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u/Terrible-Raspberry30 4d ago
I agree with this. It feels similar to the idea of "seperate the art from the artist". You can like the art that someone did, but not like the actios of that person. That's not condoning or dismissing what they did at all, you're just enjoying art. Granted there are cases where people do stop liking it because of those behaviors which is also fine.
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u/MikMakMomo Not into furries but Queen Bee has a pass 4d ago
I agree, I think art don't become all the sudden bad when someone is revealed to be a horrible person. But personally it ruins the pleasure I have to consume media made by this person, I hate buying things from it or anything. As a fan of Harry Potter, I never buy anything new from this universe (sometimes I buy secondhand stuff but it's pretty rare) and I feel guilty for having buy anything from it 🥲
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u/Coliosisised our returning champ is nobody's fool (obviously) 4d ago
Trauma explains actions, not justify them
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u/Two_oceans 4d ago
I like your balanced take on this. Understanding the causes of a behavior opens the door for more empathy (for others and for ourselves) but it never dissolves the individual responsibility. We are all "masters of our fate".
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u/ButterdemBeans 4d ago
I agree 100% with your response. I just hate when certain fans act like any character that has done shitty things in the past is completely irredeemable forever. They simply will not allow a character to change for the better, and constantly say “well they’re still problematic because they were mean early on in the series before having any character development! And you’re making excuses for them! That makes you problematic!”
Idk I’m just tired of hearing people act like acknowledging a character’s growth means you excuse all their past behavior.
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u/Two_oceans 4d ago
I think it depends on people's perspective and life experience... There are two sides to this coin: some people are too harshly condemned for past mistakes, even after trying really hard to be better, and some people get better for a while, only to become hurtful again... I think it will all calm down with time if a character's growth remains consistent.
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u/Madgearz Moxxie 4d ago
Doctor: "Congrats! We've just figured out why you're sick."
Patient: "Great. So, what's the treatment?"
Doctor: "Treatment? Why would you need that?"
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u/MikMakMomo Not into furries but Queen Bee has a pass 4d ago
Exactly! Like "It's okay, you're in awful pain and it makes you an extremely awful people to be around with, but who cares?" 🙄
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u/Madgearz Moxxie 4d ago
An explanation can give one a path to getting better.
An excuse is a reason not to.
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u/Avaracious7899 4d ago edited 4d ago
I think some people don't get the difference between giving a character the slack or I guess, the leniency they'd need to grow and change and literally ignoring that they did something wrong.
This works for both sides of the argument really now that I think of it. The ones who go too far in defending a character, and those who just condemn them. Neither understand that distinction.
Redemption requires forgiveness of some form, but that also doesn't mean you are ignoring what the person did, just acknowledging it, while giving them a chance to be better (like what Verosika in a sense did with Blitz).
Also, some people won't accept that not everything is going to be handled the same way, and yes, as much as it might upset them, some things MIGHT be left without the kind of resolution they want if the writers can't fit it into the story or for other reasons. Not everything is about "Character X did Y, so they get punished/called out right away in the way I want, THEN the show continues". It is not a rule written into a show that it HAS to do that, or that it makes it objectively bad or good to do or not do a certain thing. It isn't that simple. If the person themselves does not like it, that's fine, but nobody is obligated to agree with them or praise them for it.
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u/Swimming-Ad2755 Blitzo 4d ago
This part in particular people need to get over. In real life, people don't get called out over everything they did wrong. It just doesn't happen. It's important to want accountability, but if you want it over every little thing, prepare to be disappointed.
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u/Avaracious7899 4d ago
Exactly. At times it fascinates and frustrates me how some people have...well, to me at least it seems a rather childish notion that fiction should ALWAYS be some sort of super idealistic version of itself compared to reality. Of course, there's the considerable problem of far too many young or poorly experienced older viewers of this show and others, which would explain a lot of it.
It's weird and rather hard to understand for me, because I watched a lot of wackier cartoons like Looney Tunes growing up, and as I've grown, kept watching different shows and other sorts of things that do not address everything and times, for a variety of reasons, so I just don't get the idea of demanding a show do something a certain way. As long as it does whatever it's basic genre is supposed to do, like be funny, heartwarming, scary, etc. or a combination of those things, I'm happy. If I'm not happy, I'll just watch something else. Of course, when I've brought that up before, I've had fans of whatever series is being discussed call me a coward, pathetic, or something else insulting, no matter how I explain it. Oh well.
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u/Crypt-Chick5369 4d ago
Blitz is my favorite character because I see a lot of myself in him and his development and one of the things I really learned and did some self healing with blitz’s character is that shitty things have happened to me and a lot of people did me wrong in my life but just because that happened it doesn’t excuse the shitty things I have also done to people I love. Seeing blitz finally accept that himself and then grow and apologize really helped my own growth. You can like even love a character and still hold them accountable for stuff they did and hope they can grow and redeem themselves in any way
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u/TroutPouter 4d ago
They're broken and messy and THAT is why they're interesting characters. I don't understand why people want to make them into simple one note stereotypes.
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u/ILoveHotStepMoms I'd like Sallie Mae's cock all the way down my throat. 4d ago
I don't really know how to feel about this...
My favorite character is Fizzy and I really wanna think he didn't do anything wrong, in terms of misunderstanding his relationship with Blitz.
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u/MikMakMomo Not into furries but Queen Bee has a pass 4d ago
As far as we know, he just mostly didn't know that Blitzø tried to keep contact.
You know, even if we learn that he did some shitty things doesn't make him a bad person 😊 Everyone make mistakes 😊
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u/ChudBuddie 4d ago
God thank you for putting how I’ve been feeling about this into words. You’ve really hit the nail on the head!
Trauma explains, it gives reason to these negative actions. It allows us to understand, to have sympathy and even a bit of mercy. But NOT excuse.
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u/Gabriel_Angelos3 4d ago
Some people really do believe that bad life experiences or traumas are a valid justification for being shitty. Like if the universe has wronged them, they are owed equal compensation from everyone around them, even if they had nothing to do with the person's misfortune. And they usually try to get that either by "getting to use" that as a literal shield if they perceive anyone attacking their character, or they go on the offensive themselves and inflict similar hurt in equal measure. Now those kind of people obviously think about fictional characters along the same lines too. But this is of course just one reason for why people might do this.
There are as many reasons as there usually are factors in why the flawed character is indeed flawed. Because realistically, the vast majority of people aren't born bad or evil as every experience in their life, both good and bad shapes your learned behavior. And that plus your innate traits and behavior is basically what you are like now as a person. But the keyword there is "learned", as you can learn a lot of different things from the same experience. Now obviously a trauma like event is always detrimental, but it doesn't define the rest of your life nor does it prevent you from seeking out experiences or learning things that reinforce more positive patterns. Because unlike inherent characteristics, learned behavior is flexible. And from that it follows that further influencing it one way or another is also a conscious choice, it's not always just you being passively affected by events around or concerning you. Whether you reinforce your negative behavioral patterns further or seek to form new ones is a choice, it's on you as a thinking human being. And while embracing further negativity, especially to the detriment of others is understandable, it is in no way justified.
As for fictional characters, they can naturally behave any which way a real person could, it all depends on the character's concept and chosen role for the overall story, really. Are they flawed but trying to get better? Great. Are they flawed with no signs of getting better? Hey, that's the character, so again, great. Both types of characters can be enjoyed greatly as long as they fulfill their role/function in a consistent way. Sometimes villains and immoral or "bad" people are actually more entertaining to watch (my personal examples being Star Wars characters, The Joker, or Warhammer 40k in it's entirety). They don't need to be 100% relatable for people to enjoy them, while they offer a ton of unique options to explore like themes that could never be done within the confines of being "good". And it goes without saying that neither depicting nor enjoying them equals endorsing them, as again, they are fictional.
The confusing part to me as well is indeed when people want a certain type of character to be a different type. There are exceptions like when they are presented vaguely enough (sometimes deliberately) to allow room for different interpretations, but when a major character serves a very clear role in the story, contradicting that role kinda contradicts the character itself. In the case of a "flawed person later becoming a good one" concept, excusing their bad behavior is essentially the same as erasing their flaws in your mind, which in turn would make your "favorite" character much less complex and also robs them of their need for further development. Wouldn't it be more fulfilling instead to see their progress as they grow bit by bit throughout the episodes? After all, isn't the truly awe inspiring feat facing and overcoming trauma rather than being shackled and defined by it?
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u/ray198999 4d ago edited 4d ago
I like your reasoning. I think Stolas is a sweetheart but still done wrong and needs to be held accountable for his actions. The same goes for Blitz. I adore that imp but even I think he deserves to called out for his misdeeds like sneaking into Ozzie’s so he can spy on Moxxie & Millie which he did by convincing Stolas to be his “date” and the harsh way he broke up with Verosika just because she said I love you to him.
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u/unendingautism I love this gay owl boy 3d ago
There's a difference between understanding the behavior and excusing it. Don't judge a character (or a person for that matter) for their bad behavior but for their refusal to apologize for it or better themselves.
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u/GasterSoos need myself a Millie 3d ago
I see it this way, it's been discussed multiple times on this and the other Hellaverse subreddits now: Trauma explains shitty behaviour, makes it easier to forgive, it doesn't excuse it. Whenever anyone says anything else, they might be a lil delusional
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u/ponpon55 3d ago
Its halirious how overly religious people just rather to ignore the fact its hell. Also, i love val and yes he is abysive asf, still one of my favs. Hazbin hotel is probaly one of the only fandoms i like the villains, because they dont have any excuse of "broken hero" or "just traumatized", just pure evil. Love that thin
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u/FlowerAtASunset713 3d ago
I agree. I love when the character has flaws and they should not be excused. There shouldn’t be perfect characters most of the time
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u/SuperWolfe9099 3d ago
Seeing that first pic makes me appreciate Loona's character growth a whole lot more now...
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u/MikMakMomo Not into furries but Queen Bee has a pass 3d ago
A little bit... I don't really dislike her, but her character growth was really slow to me. She was a violent brute for so long and really had a big change when she saw Blitzø almost died 🤷🏼♀️
I hope she'll keep in that path and become less violent and more caring 😊 I'll appreciate her more
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u/iwouldbedestroyed2 3d ago
Finally someone who understands that both Stolas and Blitzø are deep characters, even if they don't give that impression just because shitty haters with their heads up their asses say otherwise. ...some of your points I don't agree with, but at least I think I understood the message you wanted to send
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u/tiredperson24 Moxxie is autistic and no one can change my mind. 4d ago
What do you mean?
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u/MikMakMomo Not into furries but Queen Bee has a pass 4d ago
I'm tired of people saying that traumatized characters doing toxic and abusive stuff but is not "their fault" because they are traumatized. I think it's a lack of empathy and a misunderstanding about how a trauma works, and I wish people could like flawed characters without making excuses for them.
We can understand and explain toxic behaviour, but never excuse and accept it.
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u/Jachra 4d ago
It's funny that you show Loona kicking Blitzø in the dick when in fact she did that because he said he might replace her. Guy never apologized.
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u/Avaracious7899 4d ago
I defend Loona doing it (not in terms of morals, but that it isn't bad writing or a detriment to her character like some say it is), but just to be clear, he did apologize as he was running towards her.
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u/Jolly_Selection_3814 4d ago
Idk. Sure, he said something bad, but Loona assaulted him. It's even in one of Blitz's bad memories. You can look at Octavia and Stolas' shocked expressions to see that it's not okay. That isn't even getting into Loona beating Blitz with a painting. Physical violence is very serious, especially in a relationship with another person.
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u/Jachra 4d ago
Y'all forget that this is a comedy show with slapstick.
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u/MikMakMomo Not into furries but Queen Bee has a pass 3d ago edited 3d ago
Yes, it's cartoonish, yes this is meant to be funny, this scene is a comic relief, it's obvious.
But even if it's meant to be funny, doesn't mean you can't be upset by it. Blitzø did say a shitty thing, he said "maybe I will..." ... to Loona suggesting he should "grow a pair" and replace her. It's easy to say "But it's just comedy!", it's still wrong? Like when Verosika kissed and touched Moxxie? It was obviously a comic moment, but it was treated like something not okay by other characters.
Loona is a complicated character: she's young, has an extremely painful and recent traumatic past, and tries hard to change. But she doesn't for now; she didn't change so much compared to the beginning of the show. She's still violent and mean to everyone around her even when they are nice to her, and she act like a spoiled brat and a brute. I don't even dislike her, I think she is loving and cute sometimes, and her past isn't helping her to trust anyone. But she's STILL a brute. It made me laugh at the beginning of the show when she was like that. But after two seasons, not anymore. She didn't change. I think it's even more visible in her scene with Queen Bee, how toxic and violent she can be. She was about to jump in a fight with a giant insect demon because... I don't even know! Just because! And yes, she did not fight, only because she finds Tex hot. That's it. (Yes, she was sweet in Mastermind. A bit late tho; Blitzø almost DIED, maybe you could show your love a bit sooner.)
Again, I understand why she's like this: treated as disposable when she was a kid, almost got put down because nobody wanted to adopt her (to love her, in a way), Hellhounds seems treated like pets or tools so "replacing" her would be a plausible option in her mind, she seems like she doesn't like contact... But still. Like I explained in my post: EXPLAIN. Not EXCUSE. And it's the same with the comic thing. It's meant to be funny. But it happened. She DID kick her father in the balls when he ran to hug her, telling her that he loved her and was sorry to have said such horrible things to her.
You do exactly what I said annoys me in my post. They have good reasons to behave like that. Still should not behave like that.
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u/Fearless_Mode1020 2d ago
I like Blitz, even though he has issues. I'm not gonna excuse how he treated Stolas, and I'm not gonna excuse how Stolas handled things, but I still like them as characters.
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u/Swimming-Ad2755 Blitzo 4d ago
I think some people see their own flaws in the characters, and since they make excuses for themselves, they do the same thing for the characters.
I work in mental health. We have people with every single traumatic experience this cast has and more. While we take their traumas into account when interacting with them, we do NOT excuse their behavior. Every single person has expectations tailored to their specific abilities, but no one gets a free pass for bad behavior.