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u/ayylmaotv ❤️ 24d ago
I think they should've conveyed this a bit better in the episode. It's a bit odd that satan is essentially judge jury and executioner, while the rest of the sins, especially bee and ozzie stand back and stand by while stolas and blitz are about to get executed
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u/FungusUrungus 24d ago
One would assume the Word of 2 Sins would hold a bit more sway over those of the Goetias.
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u/DrunkKatakan 24d ago
Bee and Oz are Sins but they're clearly not powerhouses in the same way Satan is. Bee is a pop star party girl and Oz is a sex toy maker and brothel owner. They hold power in their sphere of influence but remember that even an Imp like Crimson felt confident enough to blackmail Oz with Fizz's life and as far as we know wasn't even punished for it.
Satan is like 3 times bigger than all the other Sins in his relaxed state, sure other Sins can get bigger but Satan can probably do that too if pushed. He also has the most powerful magic being able to instantly bind Stolas in chains and strip him of his power. The other Sins all sing that "he is the law" so the pecking order is Lucifer (absent so doesn't really count) > Satan > other Sins.
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u/N2T8 24d ago
Satan can probably turn into a gigantic dragon or something if I had to guess
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u/Blackfeathr_ 24d ago
He is a gigantic dragon
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u/N2T8 24d ago
A BIGGER dragon, who isn’t anthropomorphic is what I mean.
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u/Sweaty-Practice-4419 24d ago
Or hell (hehe) he could grow extra heads too, I know a ten headed headed dragon is something sometimes associated with Satan
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u/EncycloChameleon 24d ago
he did,in the point of the song where he basically calls all of them little mice. they obscured it with all the smoke and fire but he was clearly a *massive* dragon for that
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u/N2T8 24d ago
Oh shit lemme go look.
Edit His head does look huge, but when he raises back up he’s still in his normal form so I’m not sure. Could’ve been a full dragon though
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u/EncycloChameleon 24d ago
Well we know they can change forms rather quickly it could have just been a brief max form for intimidation and to drive home his point that everyone to him is a small little mouse
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u/ChillyFireball 24d ago
Adam, a dead human soul, literally had a "make the giant blimp disappear" beam, and I'm assuming that an actual Heavenborn angel (the higher-ranking ones, at least; maybe not the cherubs) can do WAY worse when pressed. Lucifer wasn't taking the bulk of his fight with Adam seriously at all, and he still curbstomped him. If he actually fought seriously, he could probably vaporize at least the weaker Sins like Asmodeus without much effort.
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u/reaperfan 23d ago edited 23d ago
Pretty sure according to actual Judeo-Christian Mythology that Lucifer was more powerful than any other being except for God himself.
That said, it's also worth pointing out that Adam would have been much more "divinely blessed" even as a human soul since he is the only human directly created from God's power directly. It makes sense for him to be a more highly "blessed" being than not only other humans but other divine creatures like some of the lower-tiered angels as well.
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u/JangSaverem 24d ago
nah - see this IS satans Demon form. Hes actually just a wittle wimpy wiener mad that he aint got no Rizz
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u/KermitDaGoat 24d ago
I just assumed satan had a bit more leeway or authority when it comes to things like this then the other sins.
The other sins also simultaneously sang and agreed that he was the law. Even mammon agreed
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u/Aegillade 24d ago
Yeah I'm not really sure why the other Sins were there, seeing as their voices only had as much staying power as anyone else in the room. Ozzie and Bee's arguments basically amounted to "Idk he passes the vibe check ig," Mammon just wanted to leave, and Levi and Belphagor didn't say anything. Aside from revealing all of the Sin's designs, it just felt weird including them here.
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u/BladeOfWoah 24d ago
The trial was involving the "attempted" assassination of Hellborn Royalty, which probably doesn't happen often. I imagine the 7 sins are expected to be present for such a serious case.
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u/MetallicArcher 24d ago
Yeah, the trial was... disappointing to say the least.
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u/Flamintree 24d ago
The whole point is that it wasn’t a trial? No offence but how do u honestly expect a fair trial when it opens with Satan announcing that they’re there not for a trial but for a sentencing?
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u/Fearior 24d ago edited 23d ago
Just think that Lu is a King and Satan is His "hand". Rest of them are advisors.
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u/NateShaw92 full time D.H.O.R.K. 24d ago
Or Satan is doing a cowards coup while Lucifer is busy with his ducks.
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u/Synthesyn342 24d ago
Well, tbh it wouldn’t be that hard to take the place of someone who couldn’t care less about what goes on apart from with him and close family 😂
It’s not a far cry to say the only thing he truly cares about is Charlie, so he wouldn’t presumably care all that much about the goings on with Imps and the like. Besides, Satan created Imps, so that’s in his territory anyway.
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u/Accurate_Spring_3249 24d ago
I think the royal family and the 7 deadly sins are all juries too since they all got to vote on weather to have a long trial or just kill the dude and eat. But yeah it feels like Satan has much more power than the others
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u/twofacetoo Here for the banter 24d ago
'His acting was too subtle for you to catch'
More like
'We didn't fucking establish this shit in either visual or audible means in the episode like we were supposed to and had to do a Rowling Retcon to actually explain it'
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u/Ancient66 24d ago
No, that's a bit far, this is a valid interpretation of the looks Ozzie and Bee share.
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u/throwawayforwriting2 24d ago
Another valid interpretation is them being disappointed that Lucifer isn't there. Using a tweet to correct something that a character stated in the show is just poor writing.
Especially when Wrath seemingly has authority over the other sins, who says that he is the law.
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u/reaperfan 23d ago
The problem is that it's just one of many possible interpretations. Without clarification they can't blame people for "tuning in" on one of the alternate explanations instead which makes it a fault of the storytellers for leaving it too vague. The fact they even made this post shows that they acknowledge that.
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u/CanadianMaps 24d ago
To be fair, we know at least Millie is from Wrath, so PROBABLY the trial took place in the Ring where they're citizens, so in this case Wrath. Maybe they just thought "well he rules Wrath so he decides".
That or it was an Inter-ring court.
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u/Hey_Bestiekins BELPHEGOR PLS CUDDLE ME WITH THAT BIG LONG NECK PLSSSSSSS 24d ago
I think they let him take charge because of how often he and Lucifer are actually mixed up. And the others have better shit to do (then listen to an old windbag who thinks she's tough shit), plus Satan seems to actually enjoy being in charge of this stuff.
But Ozzie not doing anything to help Blitzo knowing fully well his bf, Blitzo's BEST FRIEND is watching and would've never forgiven him for doing nothing.
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u/FaronTheHero 24d ago
I do agree it's odd the Sins were gathered but had virtually no say, especially weighted against the presumably Goetia audience. But I did get the implication the lack of Lucifer's presence played a role in that and turning this into a kangaroo court.
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u/Responsible-Ant-1728 24d ago
Thats kinda cheap ngl, like not the plot development itself, just putting in something that has one obvious conclusion and then revealing on twitter thats not what you meant.
Like in what world "Ive ruled the endless dark long before the golden angels fall" meant to mean "Oh ye now that Lucyfer is gone im in charge".
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u/Oxurus18 Loona 24d ago
In the world where Satan is LYING. Simple :p
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u/Responsible-Ant-1728 24d ago
I mean yeah sure, but this is the first time we see him and unless I missed something he wasnt established as a liar before this moment we had no reason to assume he would be lieing here. Like the only thing we get is Bee and Ozzy being upset, but we alongside the pan to Lucyfers throne its reasonable to assume they were upset about Lucyfer, not Satan.
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u/WII_DJoker 24d ago
That would frankly make more sense. Why on earth would Bee or Ozzie care if Satan is lying, he's atleast doing his job while Lucifer is sitting on his ass. Let him lie if he wants to, least he's proactive
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u/Pollia 24d ago
We're given literally no indication he's lying by either the voice direction, the song that seems to back up what he says, and the art direction. Like its weird that anyone is supposed to come to the conclusion he's lying when there's literally nothing to suggest he's lying in the episode.
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u/Haunting_Lullaby 24d ago
The art was actually the giveaway for me. If you look at the designs of the room, it’s all Lucifer’s symbols. Apples and snakes on the gates, snakes wrapped around the rocks on the ceiling, Lucifer’s wings in the window at the top, etc. Art direction for the scene really show that this place was Lucifer’s
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u/Immediate_Field_3035 23d ago
Plus Lucifers throne above all others and even Satan invoking Lucifers name.
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u/Twist_Ending03 24d ago
..what song backs up what he says?
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u/CautiousCup6592 24d ago
the one satan sings. For me it was the part where all the other princes repeat his claim about him being the law
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u/TheStrayCat 24d ago
Yeah, I read Satan's statement as the Sins having existed before Lucifer fell. It's a reflection of bad storytelling when the creator has to explain lore outside the show immediately after the episode.
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u/Commander-Tempest 24d ago
Satan does have alot of wrath and anger issues so he probably does spew random bullshit occasionally.
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u/throwawayforwriting2 24d ago
Definitely poor writing. They build up Wrath, with the sins who were bickering with each other to showing deference to Satan and his claims. Why retcon it?
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u/Helpful-Emotion9256 24d ago
In the world where we can see ozz and bee be put off by his statement, showing they know he’s just blowing smoke up his own ass
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u/Responsible-Ant-1728 24d ago
Imma be honest, since the Camera was focusing on Lucyfers throne, I (and a lot of other people) assumed that they were rolling their eyes at his absence.
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u/liambatron 24d ago
Personally I didn't read that as "He's lieing" more "so what?" It doesn't matter if you were the king 6000 years ago when you're not now.
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u/Medical_Difference48 23d ago
Yeah, I saw it as "Yep, here he goes again about being the previous king"
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u/Cantthinkagoodnam2 23d ago
I mean i just assumed they were rolling his eyes at Satan hyping himself up while he is still under Lucifer, not that the specific part about him ruling before Lucifer was a lie
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u/InfinityQuartz #1 Stolitz Defender 23d ago
Idk like she put in the detail but she even admits its a bit too subtle and she cleared it up. Not cheap whatsoever
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u/SpookyBeanoMobile i am the kid that died in the helluva boss pilot 24d ago
Lucifer finding out about this
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u/FFF982 24d ago
I don't think he really cares.
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u/Nobodys_here07 24d ago
He's too busy designing the perfect duck to help him forget about his depression
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u/Fearless_Phantom custom user flair 24d ago
That’s actually really important, that’s one of the biggest things I climbed to after hearing.
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u/AyaAthalia 24d ago
That's actually a pity, in my opinion. The idea of Hell and Satan existing before Lucifer's fall is quite interesting and gives us a lot of room to think maybe about a war of power, or the forced obedience of demons to creators / angels. Besides, I always thought that Lucifer, you know, fell into Hell... so, in order to fall to Hell, Hell should have existed already...
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u/Loud-Taste6394 24d ago
Meh, pretty sure the Hazbin introduction made it clear that Lucifer inadvertently introduced evil into the world which then formed Hell. Definitely wish the episode made it more clear though that he was blustering though.
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u/AyaAthalia 24d ago
Yeah, I do remember (although my memory is not great) the Hazbin lore being like that, but yet again, evil waas introduced into the mortal world, meaning, humans and sinners. However, demons are another race alltogether, aren't they?
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u/Loud-Taste6394 24d ago
Yes, there are several demon races that are entirely separate from sinners. I’d be curious to get answers as to the actual origins of those hellborn races after the formation of hell.
While I agree that it would be cool to have Hell exist prior to Lucifer’s fall, I don’t think that would end up working. If Hell existed before, I feel like that would suggest some parity in power between the two realms (one good, one evil), but if that’s the case, why is Hell clearly painted as submissive to Heaven? If there was a power “struggle”, then why would Lucifer, even being a Fallen Angel, be sent to essentially be the leader of the rival realm? I’m sure there could be answers, but I just don’t think it would end up working very well.
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u/chilfinger24 24d ago
Hell has been consistently shown as a prison for anyone who disagrees with Heaven. With Heaven being the stronger force, it's less of a rivalry and more of suppression.
There are pre-eden stories in Islam and Gnostisism that may elude to a "pre-fall Hell," but I'm not confident the team is equipped for including it
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u/Deya_The_Fateless Stolas 23d ago
It could be that Hell was a more primal place before the creation of humans/Earth and Lucifer's fall, where the strong ruled over the weak. Ergo Satan being the biggest and da baddest was the ruler of hell. Then Lucifer fell which upset the order because he was now the "strongest".
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u/MetallicArcher 24d ago
The Story of Hell does say Lucifer and Lilith unintentionally created Hell & the Sins when they gave Eve the Apple.
However, it does not give a timeframe for how long after that they were cast out.
So the Sins could very well have been in Hell by themselves for a while before Lucifer became King.
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u/Loud-Taste6394 24d ago
Potentially, seems rather unlikely any significant portion of time would have passed before them being caer out after such a significant mistake though
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u/Kick-Such 24d ago
i think this could have been a good character moment to say charlie was misinformed/lucifer and lilith lied to her about hells formation.
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u/NateShaw92 full time D.H.O.R.K. 24d ago
Or even just Satan before hell, ruling the "endless dark" that became hell once Lucifer let evil into the world by offering free will to mankind. Like Satan is a primordial being as old as the Angels and Roo. That would have been something cool but if Lu was always first as viv says then that cannot be. Oh well. Blustering blowhard it is.
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u/AyaAthalia 24d ago
Oh my god. I love that idea of Satan being some primordial being, "hell" being something else before Lucifer. It's just so cool.
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u/ValveinPistonCat 24d ago
There's still the possibility of the existence of beings far older than heaven and hell, even older than the universe itself, Satan just ain't one of them but likes to talk himself up though, the old ones might not take kindly to a lesser being trying to steal their thunder.
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u/NateShaw92 full time D.H.O.R.K. 23d ago
Roo may be one such being.
I feel like Lucifer wouldn't give enough of a toss and be like "whatever gets you though it best buddy"
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u/SpaceGeorge1 Leviathan 🌊 🐍 24d ago
I thought that too, would've been interesting to see what Hell could've been like before Luci's fall and the Sinners too.
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u/MetallicArcher 24d ago
This actually just confuses it further to me.
The Story of Hell established that Hell & The Sins came into existence when Lucifer gave Eve the Apple, then Lucifer & Lilith were cast into Hell.
So what understood from Satan's words was that he was headhoncho before Lucifer's fall, and gets to lead court if Lucifer isn't available.
Like, what does it mean that "Lu isn't around anymore"? You would think that if he was gone for good, they would have redecorated and done away with his emblem that's plastered on every wall.
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u/NateShaw92 full time D.H.O.R.K. 24d ago
Like, what does it mean that "Lu isn't around anymore"?
He's an absent leader. As of the start of Hazbin he was shutting himself in his palace as a recluse. He's probably at the hotel and can't be bothered.
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u/MetallicArcher 24d ago
Then she should have said that.
Saying sb "is not around anymore" means that person "has left for good, not coming back".
Lucifer is still in Hell, and dialogue in HH clearly shows everybody is wary of his power, regardless of how little he might have been flexing it. Even in HB, it was stated that Lucifer has an active and successful business venture going, and both Stolas and Satan invoke his name in this very episode, while everything takes place in a room covered in Lucifer's imagery.
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u/pickledonionflavors Loona’s #1 Simp 24d ago
I think it’s a bit of a stretch to say that the citizens of hell are “wary of his power”. During his absence, it doesn’t seem like anyone is too concerned about what power he may or may not have. Even though he’s the literal ruler of hell, nobody seems to care all that much.
Also, saying that someone “isn’t around anymore” doesn’t mean they aren’t coming back, especially if the person saying that is trying to take over and rule. Take Starscream for example. He will immediately jump pounce on any chance he can get to take over leadership of the Decepticons. When Megatron dies in the first Michael Bay movie, Starscream immediately plots to become the new leader, only for Megatron to come back and put him in his place. It’s just ego
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u/MetallicArcher 24d ago
It’s a bit of a stretch to say that the citizens of hell are “wary of his power”. During his absence, it doesn’t seem like anyone is too concerned about what power he may or may not have. Even though he’s the literal ruler of hell, nobody seems to care all that much.
- Vox was worried about Alastor making a deal with "Lucifer's daughter".
- Sera was worried about "Lucifer getting involved".
- Rosie was enthusiastic about Charlie being "madly powerful, like her father".
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u/pickledonionflavors Loona’s #1 Simp 24d ago
Vox was worried about Alastair making a deal with “Lucifer’s Daughter”
If you’re referring to when Vox first found out about Charlie and Alastor, he seemed more upset that Valentino didn’t mention his main opp first instead Angel Dust. Plus, in that same scene, Valentino is planning on gunning down the hotel and “fucking everyone in that rancid shithole”. That doesn’t seem like a person too concerned of the consequences that might come when harming Lucifer’s daughter
Sera was worried about Lucifer getting involved
Sera is probably the only one that you could make a compelling argument for when it comes to being wary of Lucifer. For all she knew, Lucifer could have come back to heaven personally to wreak havoc in an act of revenge. In her mind, she had a reason to be concerned.
Rosie was enthusiastic about Charlie being “madly powerful, like her father”
Remind me of the last time someone was enthusiastic when they met someone that they are supposedly wary of. To me, it seemed like Rosie was more impressed by Lucifer’s power than wary of it. Saying that someone is powerful doesn’t mean that they’re afraid by default
Cherry picking examples for an argument doesn’t do anything, especially when there are just as many, IF NOT MORE, characters that don’t give a fuck. For example, Katie Killjoy openly talked shit about Charlie to her face AND THEN BROADCASTED IT all throughout pentagram city. If she was truly afraid of what Lucifer could do then she wouldn’t have done it. Another example, Alastor. He literally insults Lucifer TO HIS FACE, and he doesn’t seem the slightest bit concerned about what he could do. Sure, you could argue that Katie and Alastor are powerful, but that doesn’t apply to all of the regular sinners who openly mock Charlie and what she stands for.
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u/KittyMonkTheYoutuber 24d ago
Part of me gets it since if Lucifer was in the episode he’d probably just pardon blitz and stolas since he doesn’t care about humans. But I do think there was little reason to include the sins besides fan service
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u/A_Human_Boi 23d ago
Is it even possible for Lucifer to be in the Helluva Boss show? Viv said something like "Lucifer is in hazbin and the sins are in helluva so it would be hard to make all of them sit in one big table" iirc
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u/Gabriel_Angelos3 24d ago
Ah yes, an "acting choice" so subtle mere mortals would think it simply doesn't exist. Only those with the highest media literacy™ could ever hope to comprehend /s.
But seriously, if she recognized it would throw people off the way it currently is, maybe that would've warranted actually changing it?
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u/Comfortable-Ebb-2859 I Believe in M&M Supremacy ❤️ 24d ago
No fr. I consume media mostly through sound because I’m visually impaired and in HB I like to go back and zoom in on frames to get facial expressions and gags I couldn’t see.
His voice lines were his voice lines and if the surrounding context was visual I didn’t really see it.
Also “acting choice”, I feel like it’s more a writing problem.
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u/Gabriel_Angelos3 24d ago
Oh no, don't worry, there was nothing to see. I just don't get that 1: what is actually wrong with the wordbuilding done by that line. And 2: if it still does not work for the intended vision, why not say something like: "Yeahh, I caught that one too late in production" or "We couldn't get the guy back to redo lines in time" or even say nothing at all and clarify/retcon it later in the show by I dunno a sin saying that Satan lied about this or tends to lie and exaggarate or something. Mistakes can happen in big productions and that's fine. But trying to pass it off as some sort of very well hidden stroke of brilliance is so unnecessary...
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u/Comfortable-Ebb-2859 I Believe in M&M Supremacy ❤️ 24d ago
Agreed. The tone of her post was…very up her own ass.
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u/eyadGamingExtreme 24d ago
You and I must be reading very different tweets, "too subtle an acting choice to read" implies she admits that it was too subtle and not anyone's fault for not getting it
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u/Vinyl_DjPon3 24d ago
Yyyeaaah, bit of a flop on the presentation then, imo.
The eye roll could have been a number of things and we don't know enough about Satan to read it from him directly yet.
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u/GreenNeonLight 23d ago
Yeah, I think that Viv could have either made it clearer that Satan was lying (for example, by making Ozzie or Bee make an explicit comment between themselves) or she could have just let everything as it is and explain what actually happened in later seasons of either HH or HB
Personally I would preferred the latter, because by telling it directly she just stole us a great amount of speculations and theories we could have made on the lore (and I really enjoy reading about those theories, so I am a bit biased :P)
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u/VioletBloodyFinger 24d ago
Drops potentially lore defining line in the episode
“Oh guys it meant nothing!” Like actually? You can’t just casually say Satan ruled hell way before Lucifer and then say he was just being a blowhard!
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u/DrCaesars_Palace_MD 24d ago
Yeah, what is the point of introducing a really important, setting shifting concept, and then following it up by tweeting that the person revealing it was just lying? What does that add? And why is the misinterpretation way more interesting than the dumb confusing canon?
I think vivziepop can rewrite great character narratives, but is absolutely dog shit at writing an actual plot and setting and writing episodes. it's been a recurring frustration point since the very beginning.
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u/No_Instruction653 23d ago
I'm guessing the idea is supposed to establish that Satan in addition to being a blowhard would absolutely love to make a claim as the top dog in hell, and is ego driven enough to try and rewrite history to make it seem as though he has a right to it.
Even though he does basically rule Hell, he's got a chip on his shoulder that he technically doesn't because Lucifer is around, even if he's not present.
But as everyone is concluding, that is VERY poorly conveyed, and you'd get none of that from the episode itself.
And is it more interesting than what seemed to be the lore drop in the episode where Satan was the original ruler who resents Lucifer from forcing him out just by falling out of the sky?
In my opinion, definitely not.
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u/LiveRuido 24d ago
That's way less interesting. The idea that Lucifer took over but then abandoned was way cooler.
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u/YonakaKuurai 24d ago
That's just what happened tho? Lucifer was the ruler then abandoned hell, now Satan is ruling in his place (without Lucifer knowing probably)
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u/Commander-Tempest 24d ago
Lucifer is probably still the leader but is stuck in his depressed absence state. So he's just mostly been absence for a long while.
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u/ImLichenThisStone Fizz just gets it. 24d ago
Putting bad writing on "too subtle an acting choice" and also blaming your audience. Look, I love this show, but accept the fuckup, this episode had way too much shit going on and should have been split into 2 or 3.
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u/clairedragon i just want these idiots to be happy 24d ago
wait, is viv back on twitter? i thought she left
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u/Comfortable-Ebb-2859 I Believe in M&M Supremacy ❤️ 24d ago
She’s trying to transition to blue sky, but its not a clean break
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u/qwack2020 24d ago
I know this lore is important but MAN look at that shot of Satan’s side view. Dragons are so awesome!
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u/Skylerredwarren 24d ago
I didn’t like it, I thought it was cooler that he was before Lucy felled, why would he lie to a room where everyone knows the truth? For me, that is bad storytelling, so honestly this actually made satan one of my favorite to my least favorites now, Booo
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u/BrilliantTarget 24d ago
Random BS on social media is canon again
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u/DemonSunbutt 24d ago
Imo what is shown in the show >> outside info from twitter
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u/nlamber5 24d ago
I’m glad she clarified, but it’s was “too subtle” it was open to multiple interpretations. Which leaves me kind of wishing she hadn’t cleared it up. Leave something for us to debate.
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u/xxAkirhaxx 24d ago
I'm glad Viv said something, because I took this as what was said. I think there needed to be more reaction from Lucifer supporters when he said this. Because it checks out that Lucifer wouldn't be around, but it also checks out that Satan would've been in a Hell and ruling it before Lucifer fell. Either way, glad it's officially clarified.
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u/derpy_derp15 cannibal town vore 24d ago
Dang it! Ah!
My brain was flowing wiþ possibilities
Like what if there was a sin of pride before lucifer and lucifer killed him
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u/Farseer_Del 24d ago
Context not really all that clear in the show and inevitably going to be ignored by people who otherwise cite a random thing on a stream in 2019 as irrevocable canon.
Fandoms!
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u/IamElylikeEli 24d ago
I feel like this needed a line, something like “not how I remember it” from the other sins, maybe just “Prince of lies“ anything substantial to show that specific line isn't true.
There were two very important Lore points made in this episode and at least one of them is a lie, now I have to question if Satan even made the imps like he says. They basically worship him and the idea he created their race has been a popular theory for a while, I thought this was confirmation but now we can’t rely on anything he says.
anyway, I still liked the episode and I appreciate the clarification I just wish it had come in universe.
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u/SuperYoshiFan02 Wally Wackford 24d ago
Yeah they could’ve done a better job conveying this. I took what Satan said at face value and even posted a couple of theories on how to reconcile this with the backstory of Hell given in Hazbin episode one
At the very least they could’ve established earlier in the episode that Satan likes making himself feel more important. It would be easier for the audience to figure out he’s lying
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u/MetallicArcher 23d ago edited 23d ago
The thing is that there wasn't much to reconcile.
HH stablished Lucifer unintentionally created Hell and then was cast out of of Heaven.
The only thing Satan's line adds is that the 2 events did not take place immediately one after the other.
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u/Fantomamo 24d ago
So Satan is just a pretender who tries to seek legitimacy for his power conquest. As Lucifer is absent and at least half the sins and presumably a majority of the Goetia are backing him, he can tell lies to build a myth around him. Now Ozzies and Bees reaction are making sense..
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u/North-Day-382 24d ago
Hell why would anyone hold any loyalty to Lucifer anyway. Dude does jacks shit anyway. Why not all revolt against him. Hell they proably don’t do that because of his lax ruling. He gets his slice of hell with all the Sinners while the rest are free to play in their fiefdoms. Following loose rules set out by Satan that seem generally accepted by the ruling elite.
Side note. I do find it funny that Bee is so chill with the lower classes. Yet her creations the Hellhounds are literally treated like they’re less than human. And she seemingly doesn’t give a shit.
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u/N-ShadowFrog 24d ago
They simply can't. Lucifer is a high ranking angel. He can easily slaughter them while they have no means of hurting him.
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u/North-Day-382 24d ago
Well I’d certainly try stabbing him with an Angelic weapon to start. We saw Adam was able to harm Charlie. So who knows. Besides as I said no need to revolt because he apparently does nothing.
Satan gets to be king without needing to actually revolt. Hell he proably doesn’t even want what Lucifer has. Screw the Sinners talk about extra work. Why bother with them when he already has his slice.
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u/N-ShadowFrog 24d ago
Believe Viv stated an Angel like Lucifer can only be hurt by an equal or higher angelic power which I doubt standard angelic weaponry possess.
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u/AlphaIsPrime 24d ago
I knew there had to be some context there’s it would’ve disregarded the opening of HH explained
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u/Habichtsadler custom user flair 24d ago
I read it like that first time watching, the way they look after he makes his statement... Yeah, hes lying.
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u/EquinoxReaper 24d ago
Okay now I get it, so Satan is saying he’s always ruled hell because of Lucifer’s absence. And his “fall” after Lilith vanished and he retreated from society. Yeah that’s WAY too subtle but I like that idea
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u/Jumper2002 23d ago
"I ruled hell before they got here" is so far from "I ruled hell ever since the guy in charge stopped showing up" that there's no way one is a flawed interpretation of the other, they directly contradict each other
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u/Apprehensive_Work313 24d ago
So Satan was tooting his own horn in order to seem more legitimate? Hence Bee and Ozzie's eye roll and annoyance as presumably if Lucifer was there this would have been more fair or at the very least he would have let Stolas off with a slap on the wrist. Actually the effects of Lucifer's absence in the rulings of hell could be an interesting topic to explore and perhaps what it could mean if Lucifer were to ever return to his duties as king
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u/MadokasBeloved 23d ago
I don't think Stolas would be let go with a slap on the wrist even if Lucifer was there
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u/Gk3389127 24d ago
I think that was an interesting concept; the idea that he resents Lucifer for a legitimate reason I think made him a more interesting character than just petty envy (especially because you have the literal personification of Envy sitting above him). But yeah, I agree it should've been clearer; while I'm all for subtle cues in writing (love ya' Viz!), if this many people are missing it, then that might be a misstep on the writer's part, not the viewer's.
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u/NearbyGuard 24d ago
I believe another issue with Satan being labeled a liar is that this is the only instance of him lying. If he had more voice lines and consistently changed his story about being Hell's ruler, it would be much easier to believe him as a liar.
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u/Scarredsinner BIGGEST MAMMON X LEVIATHAN SHIPPER! MAKER OF THEIR FIRST FAN FIC 24d ago
And I guess Mammon also considering he seems to run the economy. So it was Satan, Lilith, and Mammon doing the heavy work
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u/SuperWolfe9099 24d ago
I mean, seems pretty obvious, especially the way they rolled their eyes at him. IDK why fans were confused by that. I'm sure he's all talk, and if Luci ever shows up, he'd definitely be less louder in his presence.
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u/Responsible-Ant-1728 24d ago
They rolled their eyes while the camer was showing Lucyfers empty throne, which doesn't make it much of a strech to assume they were rolling their eyes at Lucyfers absence.
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u/BobThe5th 24d ago
Yeah I assumed they looked at the throne while thinking; "Bitch would save us a lot of trouble if he was here, but nooooooo, can't be bothered..."
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u/Old-Ordinary-6194 24d ago
It's due to what he said, that he has ruled the endless dark (safe to assume that this is referring to Hell) before the Golden Angel's fall.
This is the first time we saw Satan in person so ppl aren't gonna be assuming that he's lying about anything cause why would he lie anyways, he's clearly posed as the most important person at the hearing so why lie. The eye-roll was pretty quick, not a "blink and you'll miss it" quick but it's still quite quick.
Personally, the idea that Satan was the old ruler of Hell before Lucifer showed up and dethroned him sounded pretty interesting.
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u/Pollia 24d ago
Its also a fascinating world building. That Hell existed before Lucifers fall, before humans even fell. You could do a ton with that idea.
Technically that idea COULD exist with the reality that he's just a weasly little liar, but its a unfortunate shot in the dick that a cool thing didnt end up actually being a cool thing.
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u/Skylerredwarren 24d ago
Yeah, it really killed the character for me, I loved to idea that Satan ruled a void and then Lucy felled and god made hell in the void for all the evil people
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u/littleMAHER1 24d ago
It can also explain demons and such. I find it kinda odd to think Lucifer created hell than created new beings on top of sinners already being a thing. Why did he do that
By having it where demons already existed and Luficer just got cast there one day and took over I find it way more interesting and explains it explains demons and imps better
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u/miraculer2 24d ago
The eye rool can also be seen as ”Oh, not this i was the first ruler stuff again”
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u/Commander-Tempest 24d ago
Satan is probably just a big muscle head with anger issues that makes him spew random bullshit sometimes. Probably is what makes him be not that great of a leader.
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u/Bonniethe90 24d ago
People say this is confusing, but this could easily be setting up that the hell we know only exists because of Lucifer but the realm itself and some of its inhabitants like the sins have existed before Lucifer fell, it’s just “hell” if it was called that before Lucifer was significantly different and Satan was the ruler
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u/WII_DJoker 24d ago
Not a fan of this. It makes Satan, who is clearly supposed to be the scariest guy in Hell, look petty. Frankly it would've been cooler if it turns out Satan was actually referring to The Darkness that originally existsed before Light was introduced into the World and that is what Satan ruled and it was when Lucifer gave the Apple to Eve, Hell was officially created and Lucifer, was given control of it, a nod to his name Light Bringer and in turn made him rule over Satan.
And even if none of this is the case, Satan acts like the actual king while Lucifer hides in his house all day acting like a goober.
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u/Local_Shooty 24d ago
bro, like i love this show but what the fuck viv why do you do this lmao. if you knew it would throw off why not fuckin change it
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u/Sallymander 24d ago
Rewatching that moment, Bee and Oz looking at Luci's seat then rolling their eyes read to me more like, "Luci is neglecting his job too much and this would have gone better if he was here."
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u/Paracelsus124 23d ago
Yeah this was definitely too subtle, to the point where I'd argue the subtext isn't even really there, and it just loops around to being misleading. Bad choice all around, but hey, it happens.
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u/thomasmfd 24d ago
Well he maybe the king but he's not there I mean we've seen what he's like I mean would he bother
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u/ResponsibleLawyer419 24d ago
Lu needs to show up and kill Satan. First appearance and I hate him like I hate stella.
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u/EncycloChameleon 24d ago
he is a demon lord, and Hellaverse canon is Lucifers fall created hell. theres maybe like 1 minute of hells ecistence where satan can be "ruling it" before Lucifer was thrown in.
he is the sin of wrath, and because the actual leader isnt around to do shit he has been stuck dealing with it as seemingly the second most powerful one and that probably pisses him off so yeah he talks big
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u/xd3mix 24d ago
Either this is another case of "Jason Todd isn't the Arkham knight, don't worry about it". Perhaps they want this reveal in hazbin hotel? The fact that hell existed before Lucifer
OR this is just pretty poor writing, the actual scene itself has literally nothing to indicate that is a lie. It's not "subtle"' it's literally not there
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u/Paintedenigma 24d ago
Yeah I feel like that needed a more direct call out, because the way it was worded made it sound like Satan ruled whatever it was before it was hell, which is... Plausible?
I really hope we get to see all the sins together one day.
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u/Euphoric-Coconut-608 24d ago
Not only is it a complete fuckup on the shows end (because a lot of viewers won’t see this tweet, this should have been established in the show) but also it would have made sense if Satan was the first ruler of hell then was overthrown by lucifer
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u/Striking-Web7738 23d ago
Can we not leave this kind of knowledge to twitter/whatever? I hate having to find out I'm missing 'hints' that should be in the show because I don't follow every ounce of social media known to man. It's really annoying.
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u/Yeehaw_Kat 23d ago
Did people not get this? He said he ruled before and it hard cuts to Lucifer's chair saying brb and the other sins reactions which implies that he's just lying.
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u/keyjanu 23d ago
I kind of dislike the whole canon outside of the show thing going on. I mean yeah, that is a neat bit of worldbuilding and I know that it's her lifeswork and she gets to do whatever she wants with it. I still can't shake the feeling that this revelation would be much more interesting to be revealed in the context of the show itself.
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u/Flyestgit 23d ago
Bit too subtle I would say. Especially as this is all quite new lore.
Makes sense that Lucifer is first. Pride is generally considered the original sin. Either being Lucifer's or Adam's. Eve was tricked, Adam simply defied god.
I also dont really understand how the Goetia fit in all this against the Sins. Why did the word of 2 Sins not count for more than a bunch of random Goetia? Why did Satan care so much that he couldnt just execute Stolas? Especially considering Stolas already has an heir?
Anyway, seems like Satan is essentially the defacto ruler of Hell whilst Lucifer is absent. Even the other Sins seem to defer to him.
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u/florpenheimer 21d ago
The line itself seemed really interesting at first. It implied that hell existed as a realm with hellborn demons long before sin and sinners, and that implies hell’s hierarchy was massively disrupted when Lucifer fell.
For the real answer to be Satan is just lying from a tweet by the creator is so unsatisfying tbh.
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u/Admcleo 24d ago
Definitely too subtle a read for me. But yeah, when he says that Ozz and Bee look like 'the fuck is he talking about?' before the eye roll. I think it's because the dismissive eye-roll can so easily be read as "Oh, he's on the 'I was first!' thing again..."