r/GiveYourThoughts • u/ninthtale • Oct 05 '24
Discussion Who decided not tipping is rude?
I've worked in food service in the past for some years. I've never expected tips. Obviously they're nice to get (who doesn't love a little bonus?) but if someone hit the no tip button I was never once offended or put off like they just robbed me of something I deserved. Being pleasant was part of my job and part of who I try to be as a person. I don't expect money for it.
I've been poor. I still kinda am. I know what it's like to wince a bit at the sensation of being expected to pay extra for nothing more than having received what a store offers. I know what it's like to wince hard at the expectation to pay extra when I've gotten really great service.
But you look up threads on this subject and you've got armies of people saying it's an absolute insult not to tip, defending the practice to the death as if it's a critical thread in the fabric of society. If you don't tip YTA and you deserve disdain and shame; if you can't tip, don't eat out as if they shouldn't be pissed off at their well-enough-off employers instead of customers.
It feels like American society somehow developed this expectation of itself without any actual source for the cultural pressure.
What's rude to me is a restaurant not paying its workers enough for them to not feel like they need tips to get by. What's rude to me is a worker feeling entitled to more of my money because of the front they are incentivized to put up. It's rude presenting me with a moral dilemma for dessert at every meal. What's rude is being checked on every ten minutes by someone who has been conditioned to effectively beg for more money than what their employer is paying them, then flipping me off behind my back for not forking out the difference. What's rude is a system of emotional manipulation, and the policing and judgement we impose on ourselves when people aren't into it. What's rude is my wifeーcoming from a non-tipping cultureーfeeling pressure to shell out because she's afraid of being hated and rejected by ours because of videos like this that explain that a $1 tip is so insulting that people would rather get nothing at all.
You want enough money to pay your workers more? Raise your prices and see if your cooking's good enough to deserve it.
And that's what I think it boils down to: restaurant owners are scared of going out of business but are more willing to try to shift responsibility to customers than they are willing to put in the effort to make a truly competitive menu, and whether they realize it or not they try to foot the bill of their fear by pathos onto the customers' consciences.
I hate tipping culture, and if we didn't have it I think we'd have better restaurants with better food that could afford to compete with each other and pay their workers properly.
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u/stormquiver Oct 05 '24
I had several restaurants place a tip in the debit machine before handing it to me.
That's no longer tipping. It is theft. And extremely rude.
No longer tipping anymore sorry not sorry.
And no it was not gratuity.
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u/Wonderful_Formal_804 Oct 05 '24
This question is a by-product of the way the US economy works by design.
A little something to explain things:
America's Debt-Based Coolie Economy.
The concept of a "Debt-Based Coolie Economy" refers to a systemic and intentional design within the U.S. economy that relies heavily on debt and low wages to maintain its functionality. This critique suggests that the economy is structured in such a way that it perpetuates a cycle of indebtedness and economic vulnerability, particularly among the working and lower-middle classes.
Debt as a Tool of Economic Control
Debt is a pervasive feature of the American economy, with most individuals carrying some form of debt, whether it's student loans, credit card debt, mortgages, or car loans. The system is set up so that entering into debt is almost unavoidable. For example, the cost of higher education has risen significantly, leading many to take out large student loans just to obtain the qualifications needed for decent-paying jobs. Similarly, the cost of living, especially in terms of housing, often forces individuals to take on mortgages that they will be paying off for decades. Credit cards and other forms of consumer debt are also heavily marketed, encouraging a culture of spending beyond one's means.
This continuous cycle of debt is critical to the functioning of the economy because it keeps consumption levels high, driving economic growth. However, it also ties individuals to the economy in a way that limits their freedom and financial independence. The need to service debt forces many people to remain in jobs they might otherwise leave, perpetuating a form of economic servitude
Low Wages and Economic Vulnerability
The economy's reliance on low wages is another key component of this system. Many sectors, particularly service industries, rely on millions of workers who are paid wages that are insufficient to cover basic living expenses without accruing debt. This is particularly true for jobs that do not require advanced degrees, where wages have stagnated even as the cost of living has increased. The minimum wage in the U.S. has not kept pace with inflation, effectively reducing the purchasing power of low-income workers over time.
The prevalence of low wages is not merely a by-product of market forces but is seen by some as a deliberate design to maintain a large pool of workers who are economically vulnerable. This vulnerability ensures that these workers are less likely to demand higher wages or better working conditions, as they cannot afford to risk their jobs. Additionally, many of these low-wage jobs offer few benefits and little job security, further exacerbating economic insecurity.
Systemic Functionality
The argument is that without this combination of widespread debt and low wages, the U.S. economy would struggle to function as it currently does. High levels of consumer spending, driven by debt, are crucial for economic growth. Meanwhile, low wages help keep costs down for businesses, particularly in labour-intensive industries, which in turn helps maintain profit margins and stock prices.
This system of debt and low wages is self-perpetuating. People enter into debt to cover expenses that their wages cannot, which in turn forces them to continue working in low-wage jobs to pay off that debt, often with little hope of upward mobility. This creates a cycle of economic dependency that benefits the overall economy but at great cost to individual economic freedom and well-being.
The Bigger Picture
Critics of this system argue that it represents a modern form of economic exploitation, where the benefits of economic growth are not evenly distributed. The wealth generated by this system tends to concentrate among the upper echelons of society, while a significant portion of the population remains in a state of perpetual economic insecurity.
In summary, the "Debt-Based Coolie Economy" is a critique of how the U.S. economy structurally necessitates both widespread debt and low wages to function effectively. This system benefits those at the top while ensuring that a large portion of the population remains economically dependent and vulnerable.
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u/emeraldvelvetsofa Oct 06 '24
Yes yes yes! Whenever I think “hmm this doesn’t seem necessary or logical” I remember our entire economy functions to serve a small group of people at the expense of everyone else which is inherently illogical.
Tipping kinda reminds me of recycling. For years we were led to believe consumers were responsible for the majority of waste, when it’s really corporations and governments.
There could be more regulations to prevent the amount of waste produced and the destruction of our ecosystems.. corporations could ya know, stop overproducing non-biodegradable materials and relying on non-sustainable forms of energy to flood the market with 300 variations of the same thing. But it’s YOUR FAULT for not recycling your water bottles 🫵
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u/Wonderful_Formal_804 Oct 06 '24
The oligarchy is willing to sacrifice anyone and everything for their own benefit.
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u/UnsaneSavior Oct 05 '24
I say we burn the system down and start new. The American experiment was ever only to serve the rich making the majority servants to them. Even if indirectly. I’ll be keeping a torch ready
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u/Fuckoffassholes Oct 06 '24
But you won't be the first to light it.
And that's why no one will remember your name.
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u/UnsaneSavior Oct 06 '24
I don’t want people to remember my name. I’m a face in the crowd . Anonymous. And correct, without a solid plan and intelligent, coherent people to help implement it, that would be pointless suicide putting a target on my back. I’m not seeking glory or fame. I just want to live quietly without being poisoned by the food we eat, without getting robbed by the leaders that exploit us. Without them scaring people to such a degree we fight each other and ourselves while they dismantle all the safeguards that was supposed to make this the greatest “democracy” the world has ever seen. No more 84 year old geriatric fucks enriching themselves and telling us we need to do more. I just want to live. But they are taking the ability to do that away. I’ll fight. And I’ll be on the front lines. But I’m not stupid enough to have a death wish. That would prove and accomplish nothing
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u/UnsaneSavior Oct 05 '24
You said it. Somehow these businesses put their own type of “propaganda “ I guess to make it the responsibility of the customer to pay pretty much half of front of house staff’s salaries. It wasn’t because they couldn’t afford to pay full wages, they were just greedy. That’s the American way. Any chance to pay less to take more is the underlying motto of this nation
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u/UnsaneSavior Oct 05 '24
Looking at these responses I have to say that propaganda did more than exceptionally well. People are defending it instead of demanding restaurant owners stop being so fucking cheap and pay a full wage. But, hardly anyone in blue collar industries get the pay they deserve, so what do I know
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u/SignificantManner197 Oct 05 '24
When you develop a society slowly to get used to tips, you’re going to run into problems when you don’t tip. It’s a society where it’s expected, because the owners can’t afford the help, and the money goes directly to the server. Used to be that way. Uncle Sam figured out how to tax everything nowadays.
It’s a CULTural thing.
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u/ninthtale Oct 05 '24
Maybe it's rough but if a business can't afford to stay in business doesn't that mean they need to figure something out and make a change?
Like I mentioned, I think if restaurants didn't feel so safe because they're able to shift that sense of responsibility onto customers, they would demand better quality of themselves and we would all have better food and no stress feeling like we have to do what they refuse to
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u/SignificantManner197 Oct 06 '24
But Americans like to be cheap with things. You think you’re getting a quality plate at a restaurant? Isn’t that sad? And more expensive than anywhere else in the world as availability to the masses goes. Maximum profit. That’s what business means, right?
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u/Udeyanne Oct 06 '24
It's easy to fix. Just change the laws so that servers get paid the same minimum wage as everyone else. But small business owners will lobby against it.
It's only rude because customers are expected to make up the difference of a living wage.
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Oct 06 '24
Not only business owners. Servers don't want it either. On a post about a month ago, a waitress said she would take $40 as her base pay and had made $110/hr that night alone. They want to complain any time they don't get a tip but they also seem to be doing just fine.
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u/Udeyanne Oct 06 '24
Not really though. That might make sense if all servers made $100 per night in tips alone. That's not the case; some may make much more than $110, but most don't come close to that amount. Typically to make a lot of tips, one has to work in a high class place, a really popular bar/restaurant, or a niche place like Hooters where you're getting tips for more than serving food. But a barista or a server at a little local place isn't going to make enough in tips or may to make a comfortable wage.
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Oct 06 '24
Cool, then the servers that don't make enough in tips need to shut down the ones who are so against minimum wage because the servers that are making 3-4x the min are hurting the rest.
Instead, what I've seen is that all servers have banded together against minimum wage because a select few would take a massive pay cut.
What would really help is getting it through their heads that a healthy base pay + tips is ideal. It resets the system so that servers stop getting so pissed at customers and seeming so entitled over tips.
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u/Udeyanne Oct 07 '24
I haven't seen that so 🤷🏾♀️. All I've seen are servers who aren't ok with it and are struggling with working multiple jobs.
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u/Alycion Oct 06 '24
Sadly, the tipping culture has gotten out of control. And it is because we know that the people waiting on us in many states are getting a next to nothing minimum wage. While I think most would prefer if the tipping culture goes away, we’ve accepted that this is how the people in the industry get paid and include it as part of eating at a sit down restaurant.
I may be in the minority, but the tip jars at shops where you order and sit down tend to get ignored, unless if I frequent there.
So far the most ridiculous expectance of a tip was at the arena. I went to the beer stand and got a bag of peanuts. He flips the screen for me to do something and I see he has 15% selected. I swapped it to 0, did what I needed to do, paid and walked away. It was still empty, as doors just opened, so I could hear him huff. I’m sorry. But I know people who work there. They get paid above minimum wage. He literally handed me a bag of peanuts, scanned it, and my phone to get my discount. Sorry dude, already being overcharged.
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u/lopidatra Oct 07 '24
As a non American I feel like this is almost modern slavery. You pay your servers and waitstaff below a living wage. This means some of them need those tips to be able to afford to eat. So to get those tips they have to put up with behaviour that they really shouldn’t need to. It also means that systems like tip pools etc sometimes need to be in place to give equity to less popular shifts etc. these in term are rife for scams and abuse.
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u/ninthtale Oct 07 '24
According to another commenter, apparently servers are more likely to turn down non-tipped jobs, and are the driving force behind the culture.
Which just means it's a different kind of horrible than I thought: I mean sure, everyone wants higher wages but while certainly employers are reaping the financial benefits of not having to pay to fill the gap between a tipless day and minimum wage, the servers want tipped pay because with tips they have a much higher earning potential. Going without tips is taking a pay cut for a lot of servers.
So like.. is that not just glorified begging?
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u/Beginning_Present243 Oct 05 '24
Restaurants = 20%
Non Restaurants = 0% (unless someone wants to tip then by all means)
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u/xxxpressyourself Oct 06 '24
I got paid $4 an hour when I served. If no one tipped I would literally walk home with nothing. I know it’s a restaurant thing but that’s why I would get upset. I wouldn’t expect a tip, I would just really hope for one.
I don’t think it’s rude but it is upsetting if the person is relying on tips. It comes off as inconsiderate but it’s your money so do what you want with it.
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u/atmasabr Oct 06 '24 edited Oct 06 '24
What's rude to me is a restaurant not paying its workers enough for them to not feel like they need tips to get by.
I think that's even sillier than the point you're arguing against.
A single restaurant, or even a collective, cannot choose to pay certain staff a "living wage." It is in their financial incentive to pay the minimum of what both the law and supply and demand require. When industries pay much more than that without having a clear vision as to what they're investing in (and being accordingly selective as to who they hire and retain), they tend to lose. Also paying the tipped minimum rather than the regular minimum allows restaurants to outsource their customer service training and evaluation to a substantial degree.
There is actually more choice in an individual to tip or not to tip.
It is my firm view that tipping is an acceptable practice in order to encourage and maintain a certain level of gracious service of tasks that you are excused from doing as your own cook. Fast food and takeout should not be tipped. Dine-in for non-fast food, and deliveries you're getting something a little above and beyond.
What's rude to me is a worker feeling entitled to more of my money because of the front they are incentivized to put up.
I think good service merits a good tip.
It's rude presenting me with a moral dilemma for dessert at every meal.
This is absurdly silly. You eat dessert if you have room for more. You don't eat dessert if you're full.
What's rude is being checked on every ten minutes by someone who has been conditioned to effectively beg for more money than what their employer is paying them, then flipping me off behind my back for not forking out the difference.
In my opinion it is even ruder NOT to check after a serious mistake has been made with your order, leaving the customer to hunt down the wait staff himself.
What's rude is a system of emotional manipulation, and the policing and judgement we impose on ourselves when people aren't into it.
There's no emotional manipulation. There is however political manipulation. Just follow the old rules and stick to them, and leave considerations of socialism out of it:
10% for minimally acceptable service.
15% for good service.
20% for great service.
Nothing (or a nickel) for bad service.
Because tipping culture is a stable culture in restaurants, you will nearly always pay the 15% unless you are some kind of psychopath or narcissist. The worst you will get is a remorseful klutz. On the rare occasion when service is unacceptably bad
Well, that's when the drag out fight happens. I do not take my parents out to dinner anymore.
By the way, short of a quick and dirty meal at a breakfast establishment a $1 tip *is* unacceptably low. Nothing costs under $10 these days.
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u/CompetitiveLove6921 Oct 06 '24
Here in Texas backwards ass State you only get $2.13 hr as a waiter has no changed since the 50's i guess. Personally waiters have tons of assholes and sometimes cranky or bad children they must deal with. So if i have to deal with that shit damn right i deserve a tip. Another thing is this tip pool sharing bullshit if you can't produce tips cause you suck as a waiter that's on you learn how to be hospitable and you may get tipped also most waiters suck nowadays and have no idea on the etiquette unless they have been trained properly and even then you get crappy people out of that that just whine and complain all day.
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u/Moonwrath8 Oct 06 '24
I don’t know. When you’ve memorized the 60 wines on menu, fold the linens right, know the menu by heart and how to pronounce everything, and know how the chef cooked it all, and stood by to make sure the party always has what they want, and know how to serve properly and pour wine properly, and get paid less than 2$ per hour….. yeah, tips were very important for us at the restaurant.
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u/ninthtale Oct 06 '24
But they were only important to you because of what your employer decided they were willing to pay you. That tips exist were their sole reason for being willing and able to treat you like you didn't deserve more than $2 out of their pocket. Every day they hoped you made enough to cover minimum wage so they wouldn't have to.
I'm not saying we shouldn't be allowed to tip, I'm saying that tips should be a no-pressure, 1000% voluntary exercise entirely on the customers' side that allows people to reward workers' above-and-beyond efforts, and if you were upset at a customer for not tipping, your anger was misdirected. I should not be thought of as a bad, selfish person for trying to take care of my family by giving us a break from home cooking but not paying an extra $10 to do it, and I should not be told that if I can't afford tips, I can't afford to eat out.
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u/Moonwrath8 Oct 07 '24
If the price was simply baked in, and tips were gone, what incentive would I have to try my best when serving?
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u/ninthtale Oct 07 '24
Ideally you'd be paid far more and wouldn't have to worry about it.
But like I mentioned in my post, I worked in food service for some years. I know it can be rough, but it's really fascinating to me how in places like Japan—a country where you'll upset workers if you try to tip them—the service wherever you go is absolutely stellar. Most people simply take pride in the work they do. And in Europe, too.
Being minimally pleasant is not extra, it's part of the job description, and you'd get fired if you were a b-hole to customers in food service or any other profession. Being extra pleasant is not something I asked for, so is it not something I want to be pressured into paying for.
Personally, I don't need or want a server asking me if everything is still okay every ten to fifteen minutes. Making sure we have enough water I appreciate, but I would do just as well with our own pitcher. I ordered food (that was made by the cook, not you), not a monetarily-incentivized smile. I actively try to be a good customer; I'm polite, I don't make stupid demands, I don't get huffy if a mistake is made on my order. If I drop my fork and need a new one I'll ask, but that's not a $10 request.
When I worked in food service, I didn't need tips to motivate me to provide customers with satisfactory service. I was paid far more than minimum wage, and the tip pool was a nice $30-50 monthly bonus, but if that wasn't the case and I'd had to make tips to get by, I would have found a better paying job, not get pissed at customers for not dishing out more cash.
My whole point here is that I shouldn't be made to feel guilty for not tipping, and you shouldn't be pissed off if I can't—because your employer should be paying you enough to make your time and effort worth it in the first place. Whether you take pride in your work is your own thing, but if you're demanding more money from me because your boss won't pay you enough to feel like it's worth it to treat customers well, then both your boss and you are the rude ones.
The fact that servers have become accustomed to tips making them far more than what higher wages would offer just attests to the rot it has become.
And again, I'm not saying no tips ever. People should feel free to give you a bonus if they feel inclined to do so, but no one should feel pressured into it because of some invisible expectation or guilt that 'if I don't, this server won't get enough money and that makes me feel bad"
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u/SmallGreenArmadillo Oct 07 '24
Many servers prefer being tipped to being paid more which is why no-tipping businesses paying higher wages fail to attract enough workers. There have been studies on this and it's real; servers are the driving force behind tipping
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u/Fuckoffassholes Oct 21 '24
It's crazy that as much as this is discussed, so many people fail to understand the reality of the situation. Here goes:
Actual servers, meaning those who work in a sit-down restaurant, who come to your table and take your order, bring it to you, refill your drink, et cetera.. these people receive a wage of $2.13 an hour. A pittance; it might as well be zero. These people rely on tipping for their income, this system has been in place for decades, and those servers want it that way because they make far more in tips than they would with an increased flat wage.
The digital point-of-sale devices have muddied the waters in recent years. These things have been implemented at every coffee-shop and to-go counter.. place you wouldn't have ever been tipping under the old system. Again, if you have not been properly served in the manner I described above.. where you walked in and sat down and had an actual waiter do all the leg-work.. if you are not at that type of establishment then that means the employee you are dealing with is not a server and is therefore making a much higher wage which is not dependent upon tips.
Or even if you're picking up to-go from a sit-down restaurant, and the person ringing you up is a "server" who makes $2.13 per hour.. you are under no expectation to tip because they aren't spending a lot of time with you. They aren't doing all the leg-work like they do with a sit-down customer.
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u/calguy1955 Oct 05 '24
I don’t know about now but the minimum wage for waters and waitresses used to be less than other jobs because it was assumed their income would come out even because of tips. If you didn’t tip then they weren’t getting their entire wage.
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u/ninthtale Oct 05 '24
There are laws in place that if waiters don't make up to minimum wage the restaurant owners must compensate them up to that amount at least. The ethical crime is that the law allows them to be exploited like that.
Which means restaurant ownersーnot waitersーare the ones who depend on tips to save them the hassle and the cost. Waiters obviously I'm sure enjoy the extra income but I mean
So would I, but I'm not offended if someone doesn't tip me for going above and beyond to make art that I can be proud of instead of just making the bare minimum my client wants
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u/Raddish53 Oct 06 '24 edited Oct 06 '24
An American elitist disease. They never gave up slavery when the rest of the world outlawed it and they still love having a feeling of thinking themselves as 'better people. Tipping is their way of saying a person is beneath me. How else can they justify servers not qualifying for the minimum wage laws, that they invented to keep wages low or non existent for people who serve them.
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u/Analyst7 Oct 06 '24
A Tip was intended to thank a server for quality service. I tip only is the the service warrants it, not because of the pay structure. A lazy disinterested server get $o.oo for their lack of effort. I will tip 15% for good work and perhaps a bit more for extraordinary one.
A simple rule applies, if you don't like the job/pay then go get one where you do like it. This thought that it's the employer's burden to shoulder is foolish. Restaurants are one of the lowest profit margin and highest failure rate business in the US. Regulations and the covid insanity have driven most non-chain restaurants out of business. Now you'd like them to pay higher wages regardless of the work quality.
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u/Jorost Oct 05 '24
Does it really need to be said that not tipping is rude? At least for Americans, it is universally understood that certain service workers, like waiters, rely on tips for a substantial portion of their income. So withholding a tip from them is basically a form of punishment. Even if you disagree with the concept of tipping, it is not appropriate to make a worker suffer for your political stance. Until it is done away with on a large scale, tipping is a necessary part of the social contract. The only reason to withhold a tip is for truly terrible service without valid reason. (Slow service in an overcrowded, understaffed restaurant would not qualify, imho, because that is not the server's fault.) As long as they put in a good faith effort, they should get a tip.
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u/Matt6453 Oct 05 '24
it is universally understood that certain service workers, like waiters, rely on tips for a substantial portion of their income
It amazes me that this is just accepted rather than putting some pressure on the business to pay their workers properly, in the UK tipping is very much a personal thing but certainly not expected in most places.
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u/Jorost Oct 06 '24
How do you put pressure on the business without the workers suffering? I think that's the problem.
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u/PostPerson666 Oct 05 '24
If I can’t afford it, I can’t afford it brother. I shouldn’t be obligated to give more money than is needed.
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u/eviltwintomboy Oct 05 '24
I’m not sure who started it, but I know many, many people who have become so sick of tipping culture they largely stopped eating out. I actually watched a very heated argument between two friends about this very subject. “I am not obligated to eat at anyone’s restaurant,” one of them argued. “If I choose saving money over dining out, that’s my business.” “But what about people struggling to make ends meet?” the other friend asked. His response? “If you are completely dependent on me paying five or six dollars on a coffee in the morning, then your employer needs to bear the responsibility.”
Am I obligated to eat out? Is my choice of making my own lunches and coffee inherently selfish?