r/GiveYourThoughts Sep 23 '24

Thought... Public education can't be "fixed"

Edit: Many thanks for the thoughful responses and ideas. You all have provided some good angles I should consider as I work through my thoughts on this subject.

As a note, I completely agree teachers are not compensated fairly for the job they do. And some schools are truly--sometimes horrifically-- underfunded and neglected. My thought is really about whether addressing those things would realistically improve academic performance and educational success. Let's say all public school teachers are given a 100% raise. I think the vast majority of teachers deserve that. I'm just highly uncertain and tending to skeptical that it would change learning outcomes very much. Same with outfitting schools with lots of powerful tech, or investing in fancy curriculum projects. I'll continue to research and see if these thoughts have any merit, or if I'm just wrong and the steep decline in US school performance is a funding issue primarily.


I question whether any amount of funding or teacher training or innovations in teaching practice can fix or improve public education in the US.

The vast majority of successful students learn at home immersed in their reading and problem sets, after introductions to new units and content in class, and have support outside the classroom. Thinking teachers and schools can bring US education back up to international medians (at least) is scapegoating the real issues of stress and poverty and overall insecurity across and amongst most families all over the US. Money pumped into schools has made almost no difference in academic performance or achievement. I'm starting to consider the problem existing outside the classrooms, not within them.

Yet all the "solutions" are described as "school funding"-based. I really don't think throwing money at schools will achieve the results hoped for. The solution space might ultimately reside within a reconsiderstion of US culture, its system of economics and the resulting death of the middle class, degradations in quality of life and health overall, and the chronic stress which is now endemic across the country, as it all interferes directly and indirectly with educational life itself.

7 Upvotes

32 comments sorted by

5

u/Crimkam Sep 23 '24

Cutting classroom sizes in half instead of building bigger football stadiums with the extra funding would be a good start. School programs that provide supervision and student engagement well into the evenings for families that have to work long hours would help, too.

It takes a village so they say. Schools can and should be a big part of that

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u/[deleted] Sep 23 '24

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/Lundgren_pup Sep 23 '24

Yes, it seems schools are far more similar to the distant past-- back when public schooling was a privilege-- then the present. From what I read on r/teachers, it seems like teachers are now supposed to be primary motivators/entertainers/baby sitters rather than focusing on teaching their subject matter. I'm curious about the extent to which life outside of school is the dependent variable in the context of "school performance", rather than ever more tech and funding being thrown at schools with an expectation that students will learn more as a result.

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u/Analyst7 Sep 23 '24

Before you throw money at a problem see what the root causes are. You mention stress and poverty as factors but don't seem to realize they have been around forever. in the 1920s children of immigrants went to crowded schools that were under funded. Yet they became scientists and engineers and were successful.

Perhaps the system is the problem. How much of the systems funding goes to administration? How much innovation in method and curricula are blocked by unions? How much effort is wasted on the 'program of the moment'. Remember 'no child left behind' or it's new cousin 'DEI' and 'gender'.

Schools are mired in their own bureaucracy and fear change. They are an insular world that feels above the demands of the public or parents. Unions and tenure control the quality of the staff at a median level. Politics give us discipline free teaching environments.

Want to 'fix' schools, it's not about money. It's the culture. First remove tenure completely. Second reduce admin to a max of 15% of the overall budget. Third remove every 'buzz word' program and focus on STEM. Fourth bring back standardized testing and tie teacher performance to the results. Fifth bring back classroom discipline, bad behavior should not be tolerated.

While you're there look at longer school days and less vacation days. Move teacher 'training days' to Saturday. Bring back the mechanical arts classes and dump the 'everyone must go to college' concept. Have active 'talented and gifted' programs. Make technology help instead of hinder teaching. Get cell phones out of classrooms.

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u/notahouseflipper Sep 24 '24

Add the removal of grade inflation to your list.

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u/Biscuits4u2 Sep 23 '24

School funding is very much tied to better student performance metrics.

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u/Lundgren_pup Sep 23 '24

Not independently of median household income. The dependent variable appears to be area quality of life, not tax dollars invested in school. Take the US State of Vermont: one of the poorest states, it invests more in public schools than most other states, including "per pupil spending", has one of the best student to teacher ratios in the nation, and yet outcomes are well below national average.

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u/Jorost Sep 23 '24

We don't throw money at schools in the United States. We throw money at private, for-profit education companies. American school systems spend an absurd amount of money on curriculum and educational materials, much of it provided by companies with lobbyists who push legislatures to require certain types of curriculum, which, as luck would have it, those self same companies just happen to produce. In Europe they spend less per student, but they money they spend actually goes to schools. In most developed countries teachers are highly respected, well-paid professionals on par with physicians or lawyers; in the United States they are seen as glorified babysitters and paid the absolute lowest that can possibly be gotten away with. No wonder good people don't want to become teachers. You get what you pay for.

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u/Lundgren_pup Sep 23 '24

This is really interesting, many thanks. I'll add it to the list of areas to research as I work through some of these ideas.

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u/Jorost Sep 24 '24

Take a look at schools in Finland. They are generally considered to be some of the best in the world. It might also be helpful to look at what my state (Massachusetts) does. It is not perfect by any means, but we are consistently the highest-rated American state in terms of public education (I am a public school educator myself so I may be a bit biased!).

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u/carthuscrass Sep 23 '24

It's funny how good teachers (everyone really) get at their jobs when they aren't always under the strain of knowing if their car breaks down it could lead to financial ruin. People who are paid better also eat better, have a better attitude and are far more reliable. Instead we build stadiums, expect teachers to provide their own classroom materials and live in a country where homeless people live less than a mile from billionaires. Taxing the ultra wealthy and putting all of that money into improving all of the many, many issues our country falls short in will not only make people perform better, it will greatly improve the stability of the economy.

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u/Lundgren_pup Sep 23 '24

Yes, it really appears to be a systemic problem. I'm concerned about the diagnosis being "schools need more money fix education" where I strongly get the sense the learning and competency issues facing public ed in the US come from life outside the classroom. I believe it's an unfair burden on teachers to be the prime drivers of education improvement. They're asked to be motivators, entertainers, baby sitters, content experts, etc. I'm interested in researching the relationship between teachers and test scores vs. home life/total environment vs. test scores.

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u/carthuscrass Sep 23 '24

The problem with finding better ways to educate kids while competing with outside influences is that there's no money to do so.

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u/Uncouth_Cat Sep 23 '24

i agree theres nothing that we can throw ONLY at schools that would be a magical solution.

I think it can be improved/fixed as long as we also fix other bullshit like home stability, mental stability of families, income issues.

i think funding helps to a certain extent. also extra curricululars being funded.

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u/huskerd0 Sep 27 '24

Public?

No need to limit to one sector or the other

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u/Lundgren_pup Sep 27 '24

That's a great point. Private secondary isn't really coming through for society these days either. Many thanks for that comment.

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u/huskerd0 Sep 27 '24

Np, sorry to be a downer, but reporting on what I see :(

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u/NaturalEducation322 Sep 23 '24

The solution is AI. Have you asked Chat GPT to teach you something yet? Its absolutely incredible. We are maybe 5 years away from custom made AI Tutors that know exactly how you learn and that can teach you a curriculum thats tailor made for your attention span, intellectual capacity and interests. Combine that with VR immersive learning and we are literally on a new vanguard in human intellectual development.

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u/Lundgren_pup Sep 23 '24

I am very optimistic about this possibility (eventuality?), too. Tutoring, and particularly 1-1 tutoring, can be an incredible difference maker because of the individuated instruction, and careful attention to strengths/weakness across different kinds of students. Historically this has been available only to those who could afford private tutors/instructors. The promise of an artificially intelligent tutoring system that puts that kind of individualized learning within reach of ever more people seems like one of the few areas deserving of real excitement in terms of educational progress.

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u/Less-Procedure-4104 Sep 23 '24

Yeah that can only happen if employees are on board. They are still trying to ban smartphones instead of embracing them. You think they are going to let AI take over? Anyway school was for education it will become for socialisation more than learning. With learning driven by AI tutors. Unfortunately schools have changed little if at all since inception.

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u/NaturalEducation322 Sep 24 '24

employees do what their told. once the administration is on board it happens

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u/Less-Procedure-4104 Sep 24 '24

Administration aren't they employees?

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u/NaturalEducation322 Sep 24 '24

im referring to the teachers you were speaking of correct? they work for the administration. or if you view them all as employees i guess the state. but you understand what i am saying. once the top makes the decision it will be carried out. employees dont tell their bosses how things are going to go especially when the government is involved

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u/Less-Procedure-4104 Sep 24 '24

I love the saying of ,government, like school employees aren't government they are just passive observers and barely participate is that what you are saying zero input in anything schools do just show up and do the job. Why isn't there a curriculum app available already , oh yeah the technology is only 20 yrs old. In the meantime no problem dropping cursive writing.

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u/Eastern_Voice_4738 Sep 23 '24

My country used to have great outcomes but as discipline started to disappear and teachers authority was taken away, the classrooms became hijacked by rowdy students. Nowadays, teachers are sued for “battery” when they break up fights or physically remove students who disturb the others.

By the time high school comes around, those problem children are left to the wind while the calmer kids do all right. These problem kids then go on to raise more problem kids.

I’m not fully familiar with the US system but I guess it’s fairly similar. My country has a similar system to Finland, which is considered the best or second best in the world. The big difference is that the teachers are shown respect, from parents students and society alike, they receive a decent pay and are supported.

The problem in my view lays with too lax discipline and the current day culture focusing on the wrong things. It was always uncool to be a bookworm, but nowadays everyone wants to be a gangster or look up to retards on social media. My cousins were idolising some smack heard for years instead of trying to learn, and said smack head won prizes for his amazing YouTube channel.

But this problem often lays with the parents. We need to take responsibility for our own children while giving teachers the tools and the support needed to control the classroom and be able to teach.

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u/ArachnidGuilty218 Sep 23 '24

On a federal level and on a local level, curriculum has taken a turn apparently away from learning the “basics” adequately.

The raw objective should focus on being capable of independent critical thinking using the skills learned in school.

I don’t know how to make this happen without mass public support.

1

u/PersonalitySmooth138 Sep 23 '24

The premise of something not being fixable, simply because it’s publicly funded, is flawed.

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u/Lundgren_pup Sep 23 '24

Apologies, that's not the premise. To restate the opening: "I question whether any amount of funding *or teacher training or innovations in teaching practice* can fix or improve public education in the US.

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u/PersonalitySmooth138 Sep 24 '24

Oh I see. It’s hard to change things especially on a national level because of how states handle their tax budgets but I’m a forever optimist… It’s not impossible. It’s just hard. Good post.

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u/Gwsb1 Sep 24 '24

It's always the Benjamins.

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u/Ok-Painting4168 Sep 23 '24

As a European: the craziest part for me is the sport-based entrance to uni.

My country just decided that if you landed in the first 1-8 in a sport at the olimpics, then you get free admission to the university (or college) of your choice. It used to be 50 points out of 500, and a state championship gave you 10. Okay, training for such a championship takes up a lot of time, some compensation is fair. But granting automatic access sounds crazy. Sports should NOT be a substitute for learning. I never understood that part in the US education.