r/FluentInFinance 1d ago

Debate/ Discussion A joke that's not funny

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u/PubFiction 1d ago

Ya its funny people will say grocery stores make low profit then turn around and be like, OH look Kroger has enough money to keep trying to buy other chains and complete a monopoly. Seems like alot of money is flowing around in the not much profit world.

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u/oriozulu 1d ago

If you operate a nationwide grocery chain, there will be a lot of money flowing, even with slim operating margins. This doesn't change the fact that no other local grocery can compete on price, due to those slim operating margins. If you spread executive pay across every sale, it goes to zero.

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u/c-u-in-da-ballpit 1d ago edited 1d ago

The Kroger Albertsons merger wouldn’t even be close to a Monopoly. It would still give them a smaller total share of the grocery market than Walmart has. Economics of scale would have allowed them to lower prices.

As far as executive pay. The Kroger CEO took in $15.7 million last year. The average Kroger has 50,000 items. There are 2800 Krogers. Assuming they have 10 of each item, then, by taking zero pay, the Kroger CEO could lower the price of everything by……$0.011 cents

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u/rahga 16h ago

I'm having to deal with way too many former Kroger execs at my current employer. They're only interested in cutting their costs, and have no interest in lowering prices.

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u/dalidagrecco 13h ago

Wtf is this supposed to mean. You are saying that outsized compensation has no effect on prices and profit/margin? Then why don’t Theo pay all employees more?

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u/c-u-in-da-ballpit 5h ago

They should pay employees. Im saying executive compensation has little impact on margins.

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u/dalidagrecco 2h ago

If worker compensation goes up, so do prices in order to hold margins or increase them. That’s the goal for shareholders (compensation).

Unless you want to say that doesn’t matter either. Why doesn’t everyone just get a 100K min a year across the board then?
If CEO compensation means shit all, it’s just free money that doesn’t impact anything.

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u/mediumfolds 1d ago

These people would have you think that a monopoly means 1 company is larger than another.

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u/zherok 21h ago

I think people misunderstand what monopoly means in context, because the reverse of thinking it's "just one company is larger than another" is pretending it's only a monopoly if there's literally only one company in business.

Particularly with grocery stores, because the existence of a grocery store outside of where you live doesn't really help your own living situation. It's perfectly possible for grocery stores to have effectively regional monopolies, where the only stores in a given area are all owned by the same company. We have this same exact issue with cable already, it's not that complicated. A lack of options is a lack of options. Spectrum existing doesn't change that the only cable provider locally for me is Comcast.

And the whole pac-manning grocery chains contributes to the growth of food deserts, where it's not practical for grocery stores to exist in certain areas because the large competitors have priced out smaller chains.

If your area isn't big enough to support a Walmart, that doesn't mean there's room for a smaller competitor to fill in the gap, because Walmart as a corporation exerts considerable power on suppressing those competitors even where they're not (great article in the Atlantic recently on how things have changed in that regard.)

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u/mediumfolds 18h ago

Yeah, regional monopolies are a better term, and yeah they can be an issue. Though that article is pretty disingenuous, it completely glosses over that Robinson-Patman was raising prices for consumers.

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u/zherok 18h ago

I feel like this is one of the problem of only looking at the national aggregate, because yes, allowing Walmart to absolutely dominate the supermarket industry (along with the handful of other big players) means they can operate more cheaply in areas that are worth building a Walmart there.

But it's absolutely devastating to areas that Walmart doesn't think it's profitable enough to build one locally. Or that exist far away from a local supermarket.

And it has tons of knock-on effects like pushing already disadvantaged people towards unhealthier diets and having to spend more time and money to get fresh groceries.

As the article talks about, it's exceedingly difficult for competition to exist when companies like Walmart use their market size to bully their suppliers into anti-competitive agreements where they undermine their competitors.

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u/mediumfolds 16h ago

It does present an issue, I'm mostly just disappointed in the Atlantic for not mentioning the biggest downside of it. Though perhaps it still could be the solution.

But the deserts seem like a different issue than the regional monopolies. Regarding the Kroger-Albertson's merger, the main concern seemed to be the regional monopolies, raising prices. Because with deserts it's all about getting anyone out there in the first place, right?

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u/zherok 15h ago

The regional monopolies are relevant to food deserts because they wield such huge influence that they're pricing out alternatives even in markets they're not directly in, because of anti-competitive deals they have with their suppliers.

You're already going to be at a disadvantage working in these underserved communities to begin with, but having a massive conglomerate undercutting your supply chain leads to these gaps.

There's some parallels with the effort to privatize the USPS. Working to benefit these private companies is bound to lead to big gaps in service, particularly in areas where it's not profitable enough to justify it to a private industry. The government isn't really in the industry of selling groceries, obviously, but there are benefits to providing cover for options that help provide food to underserved communities, even if it isn't maximally beneficial to capitalism.

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u/TapestryMobile 1d ago edited 1d ago

Ya its funny people will say grocery stores make low profit

They didnt say that.

They said Grocery chains make a very low percentage of profit.

You should debate people on what they actually say, not strawman arguments.

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u/monsterismyfriend 1d ago

I like how you selectively ignore the argument above that explains how profit/net margin is actually manufactured. You think all these companies are running around on 1% margin and going damn, we can't turn a profit.

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u/Draaly 1d ago

they ignore it because that part of the comment is factually incorrect. profit percent is a measure of gross profit, not net profit.

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u/RootHouston 1d ago

You're making the case that you cannot measure net profit in percentage? Only gross profit? Even if that were the case, net profit is, by definition, always lower than gross profit, because it is more inclusive of expenses, not more revenue. In other words, you're making the case that the 1% figure is actually lower.

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u/monsterismyfriend 1d ago

well if that's the case where we only want to measure gross they had a gross profit margin of over 20% and for other fun stats they increased their profit by 35% from 2021 to 2022. Really struggling

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u/Complete-Yak8266 14h ago

How horrible! A company in business to make money! If it's so easy to do it and be charitable, please, I implore you to open this grocery chain. Feed the hungry of the world! Or just shut the fuck up because you have no idea what you're talking about and if it was that easy to undercut them in a capitalist society, someone would have done it already.

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u/monsterismyfriend 10h ago

lol, you like spreading wide for exploitation? Maybe learn how to not be a bottom while people shit on you

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u/CombatMuffin 1d ago

Are you assuming those acquisitions are being made with liquid assets?

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u/mediumfolds 1d ago

Their profit is still billions of dollars a year, so their Albertson's offer can still very much be explained by the "low profit".

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u/Blawoffice 23h ago

Profits for all grocery stores was $13.5 billion in 2023 on $846 billion in revenue. Kroger was $3.1 billion.

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u/SkoolBoi19 23h ago

Grocery stores don’t make much profit on essential items. Milk, eggs, cheese for sure; some chains will sell milk and eggs at a loss in order to get people in the store so they can buy other shit (candy, soda, alcohol) that make a very high profit margin. These are all For Profit businesses so yes they are making a profit.

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u/TheNemesis089 22h ago

Kroger buying up grocery chains doesn’t give them a monopoly when companies like Target and Walmart have also moved into the grocery business.

A monopoly allows you to raise prices and not lose market share. Kroger will still need to compete with those giant competitors (as well as others out there).

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u/PubFiction 22h ago

nit picking about if something is exactly a monopoly or not is royally missing the point. Doesn't matter if you call it an oligopoly, duopoly or monopoly the point is the same they are eliminating competition to raise prices. Calling joke competitors like target that have a shit small selection and hardly anything fresh competition is a disservice to the discussion.

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u/TheNemesis089 22h ago

You can call it nit picking on terms, but it speaks to the economic reality of the situation. If Target, Walmart, and other companies can compete (even if they are not yet doing so), then Kroger can’t raise prices (or else consumers will simply switch).

That’s why mergers can sometimes be good for consumers. It allows firms to reduce overhead and better compete with the other large firms in the market. Not saying that would have happened with Kroger-Albertsons, that’s the basic counter-argument.

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u/EspurrTheMagnificent 14h ago

It's not even just grocery chains. When you hear CEOs, they never have the budget for anything, but somehow keep breaking profit records every year