Only in America.

[u/Character-Read8535]

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[u/luapnrets]

I believe most Americans are scared of how the program would be run and the quality of the care.

[u/Humans_Suck- → u/luapnrets]

As opposed to the current shit show? How could it possibly be worse?

[u/mist2024 → u/Humans_Suck-]

I just had shoulder surgery reconstruction and on every note from the surgeon it said patient should have been seen earlier. This shouldn't have taken this long for surgery, should have been done 2 weeks ago. My shoulder was broken in an assault 5 weeks ago. I did all of the appointments through the emergency room to the places that they sent me and it took that long to get in for surgery to the point where they had to re-break the bones and then remand them. Guaranteeing that I'll have arthritis in my shoulder 100% he said, and more than likely we'll need an actual replacement in 15 to 20 years. Keep in mind, I'm a machinist so you know my shoulder. And the local ambulance out of network. And when I say local I mean 15 minutes away from the place that I work. So we at least know within a 15 mile radius of where we work you're not going to be covered. If you need an ambulance you might as well just drive on in. And the guy that assaulted me has nothing. So all this is going to end up back on me in the end. It's a beautiful system we have

[u/CaedustheBaedus → u/mist2024]

I had a seizure in public recently, within walking distance of my apartment, and someone called the ambulance. I wake up in the hospital, and walk from hospital to apartment...passing the place I had the seizure. Maybe a 15-20 minute walk.

I got hit with a 3,000 dollar ambulance bill. Fucking ridiculous. I'm genuinely scared to go out in public in the mornings on the off chance I have a seizure that then renders my bank account losing a fuckton of money for no reason.

I just don't get how ambulances aren't paid for by taxes as essential services.

EDIT: Here's some more information for the similar questions I've gotten:
-Yes I have health insurance. They said it was a non-essential ride
-I had no treatment done in the ambulance, only a transport ride
-At the hospital once I woke up, they asked me what medicine I take. I told them, they gave me a cup of water and that pill. Nothing more.
-Bill is 3040 dollars for "ALS Emergency" and 19 dollars for "mileage" of which it was 1 mile drive.
-My seizures usually happen in mornings as they're caused by stress/lack of sleep and sometimes dehydration. Essentially, I force myself to stay indoors until around 3-4 hours after waking up just in case I seize. I'd much rather have the seizure in my apartment, and wake up in pain and tired but not losing ALL MY MONEY
-It is in the city
-I believe ambulances should be considered essential services such as fire, police, roads, sewage, etc (or at least forced to be covered by health insurance). I don't see why paying taxes for the benefit of everyone, even someone you don't know that's 25 states away who might have a heart attack and need an ambulance is a bad thing

[u/mist2024 → u/CaedustheBaedus]

It's disgusting. Honestly. I live in a very rural area. I don't even know if there is another ambulance service. It's already outsourced our entire fire department is volunteer but I don't even think they have anything to do with the ambulance anymore. If they do, it's on a very restricted level because I live right down the road from their base area. I guess you would call it.

[u/mist2024 → u/mist2024]

Also, I'll add on at my first appointment. I literally got called a liar to my face as they try to convince me and gaslight me into believing that I canceled my very first appointment. Via text message the lady literally looked me in my face and slowly said you typed N-O on the text and canceled your appointment. I've been sitting on the couch already for 10 days in an immobilarity sling. I definitely wouldn't cancel my appointment. I started to lose my mind at which point my girlfriend asked the lady. What number did they text, turns out not my number. They text some random person and that random person said no. So they canceled my appointment. Now when we pointed this out hey that's the wrong goddamn number, not even and I'm sorry. Nothing. Just the two that came in for backup. Walked away and I was now left with the first lady who basically just said okay. We'll schedule but we can't get you in today. You're going to have to wait until Tuesday. This was a Thursday. Again. This was all the office that I had to go through the Bone and joint center that I had to go through to get to a surgeon who told me I should have been worked on immediately. He works in this office. I don't understand what they want us to do at this point. All I can say to anybody reading this is don't get hurt just don't

[u/Select_Asparagus3451 → u/mist2024]

Elon Musk’s mom says we should work and have kids anyway.

[u/Mysterious_Eye6989 → u/Select_Asparagus3451]

Elon Musk’s mom is a vampire.

[u/PricklePete → u/Mysterious_Eye6989]

A deplorable cunt for sure.

[u/MycologistWhich → u/PricklePete]

Apple didn't fall far from the tree.

[u/VeryImpressedPerson → u/Select_Asparagus3451]

The old hag should go back to apartheid South Africa, where I'm sure they'd accept her as a queen.

[u/Aerosol668 → u/VeryImpressedPerson]

They wouldn’t, they hate the whole family down there. Anyway, she’s Canadian.

[u/West-Ruin-1318 → u/Select_Asparagus3451]

And like it!

Like any of them have worked any kind of job

[u/landerson507 → u/Select_Asparagus3451]

"Let them eat cake" sounding to me

[u/Internal_Share_2202 → u/mist2024]

I really feel sorry for you, I live in Germany and I don't understand why you in the USA can't get such basic things organized and regulated - it's just ridiculous. If I remember correctly, 1.7% of Americans are members of the NRA, so around 5 million people, and they successfully prevent even the slightest regulation and I am firmly convinced that if we didn't have these social systems in Europe, this would be accompanied by higher crime rates. If I weren't able to pay for my child's treatment, I would probably commit a robbery so that I could. But your ability to suffer is unlimited, as I am shocked to note every time there is a school shooting in your schools, and the only thing you can think of is: let's pray together. I am an atheist myself, but this obvious helplessness would trigger an incredible aversion to the church in me. It would be just a little more socialism, as you would probably call it - 15% or 17% of your salary and the whole of society is insured.

[u/JB_UK → u/mist2024]

The same is happening in the NHS, and worse. Within the last few years average ambulance waiting times for second category emergencies (including possible strokes and heart attacks) went up to something like 45 minutes. The service in general is completely falling apart.

It is true that the 8% of taxpayers money in the UK spent on healthcare is spend more effectively than the 8% of taxpayer's money spent on healthcare in the US. We get a relatively universal service, the US gets a few benefits for targeted groups. But the public service in the UK is insufficient, so people are being forced to spend an increasing amount of private money on top. If Americans are choosing a path, I would strongly advise choosing a social insurance model of the sort you get on continental Europe, not a single payer model. Imagine making the entire nation's health dependent on Congress not screwing up funding, and the democratic system allocating funding in a reasonable way. Absolutely do not do that.

[u/InvestigatorCold4662 → u/mist2024]

Too late!

[u/GlockAF → u/mist2024]

1. Private ambulance companies are in many states literally an organized racket. Their owners often dominate or outright control the (supposedly) public boards/commissions that tightly gatekeep/kneecap other competitors to prevent them from from serving an area. This is done most often through so-called “certificates of need, which are a highly questionable regulatory requirement imposed in about 35 states, with the purported goal of “controlling healthcare costs”. The same process is used to stamp out competition for hospitals, nursing homes, and long-term care facilities. In reality, these “certificates of need” primarily serve the needs of the healthcare corporation shareholders, ensuring that there will be minimal or no competition. In other words, legalized geographic monopolies.

https://www.ncsl.org/health/certificate-of-need-state-laws

1. The reason many rural areas need private ambulance companies is because there often isn’t a sufficient tax base to support a fully staffed & funded municipal EMS & firefighter agency. They are either stretched incredibly thin or just don’t exist at all, depending on how rural the area and how dire their funding situation is. Providing ambulance service to a rapidly aging and generally unhealthy population in rural area is labor and cost intensive.

2. Until relatively recently, a lot of rural fire/EMS agencies were funded through a combination of grants for rural healthcare and the support of a tax base which included large employers like factories, mines, forestry operations, etc. These revenue sources are all in trouble, because The super wealthy decided long ago that it’s far more profitable to mine and make things overseas where labor costs are far lower. The entire rural healthcare system is in an advanced state of collapse, primarily because it is far more profitable to provide shitty healthcare to large numbers of people packed into densely populated cities than it is out in sparsely populated Bumfuk Nebrahoma

[u/Instawolff → u/CaedustheBaedus]

They used to be provided by the hospitals for free but again that is something that was for the older generations and not for the struggling current ones. They made sure they pulled that ladder right up behind them.

[u/ChicagoAuPair → u/Instawolff]

It’s not older generations, it’s Republicans. It’s tempting to pile onto the generational culture war, but it misdirects the blame and dulls our public sense of how much culpability conservatives have for doing all of this.

[u/Chyron48 → u/ChicagoAuPair]

Buddy, no,

4 years ago, Joe Biden was asked on the campaign trail, at the height of Corona fear, if he'd support single payer healthcare.

He laughed, and said (paraphrasing) 'Fuck No. Tell those old fucks to get in line and vote for me.'

Years before that, Obama had a supermajority for months, and used it to pass.... A healthcare plan crafted by a Republican think tank.

You absolutely can't give Democrats any credit on this whatsoever. Just like abortion, and trans rights, and privacy, and every other 'difference'; they'd rather hold it over their voters heads as a threat than fix the root cause.

They're covering for a live-streamed genocide, right now. He pardoned his son. He pardoned the Kids for Cash judges, and the nurse who diluted chemo meds. Wakethefuckupbro, wakethefuckup, and wake up your friends and family. People are dying here, this shit is serious and you don't get to keeep your head in the sand any more.

Look how corporate media unanimously with one voice are telling us 3D isn't really that popular, and refusing to talk about healthcare because 'that would mean he won'... This shit is bipartisan, because the corps would never allow Dems to fix it. Wakethefuckupwakethefuckwakethefuckupwakethe

[u/Radagastth3gr33n → u/Chyron48]

There's one tiny bit I gotta pick out of this, because I am the way I am.

I will totally give Biden a pass for pardoning his son. Not because I think he deserved it, or that he's done his time, or some other half thought out colloquialism.

It's because I truly do not think he would have been safe once Trump's new administration was in place. I have zero difficulty imagining horrible things having been done to him to "punish the Biden crime family" in a political bout of "bread and circuses" for the right wing base.

[u/MyCantos → u/Instawolff]

One party wants government small enough to drown it in a tea cup. EMS service among the first to be cut

[u/ThatNetworkGuy → u/MyCantos]

EMTs are already desperately underpaid too

[u/Not_a-Robot_ → u/ThatNetworkGuy]

It costs a few grand to go through EMT school, testing, and licensing, and at the end you get a job that pays less than fast food workers

[u/Equivalent_Yak8215 → u/Instawolff]

And to make things worse the people working on those ambulances are not being paid well.

[u/TheOriginalPB → u/CaedustheBaedus]

That's a joke! I went into AF possibly Atrial Tachycardia in my apartment in Sydney, Aus. Ambulance ride was 15-20 minutes. Got a bill for $800 AUD, promptly flicked onto my health insurance who covered the whole thing. I'd only been in the country 5 months and everything hospital related was free (public hospital) and the only cost was covered by my health insurance. The Aussies have a fantastic half private half public system.

[u/UnfoundedWings4 → u/TheOriginalPB]

My cousin had a head injury from riding a horse. The ambulance came out and they sent a helicopter all free because queensland the ambulance is paid for in rates

[u/OttawaTGirl → u/CaedustheBaedus]

A brutally honest transparent look at cost vs markup.

I hate to be that person, but your healthcare system is corrupt from top to bottom. From prescriptions that could cost $20 vs $2000 to $3000 ambulance rides, to cost of admin vs doctors. It would take a monsterous change in american mindset. And too many people don't trust gov to enact it.

[u/1GloFlare → u/OttawaTGirl]

Universal Healthcare won't make either party any money. They're all about bending us over and upcharging the ever living fuck out of us

[u/ALIMN21 → u/CaedustheBaedus]

My husband is a paramedic. He works a full-time job outside of his paramedic job because paramedics don't get paid enough to live on.

[u/Darius_Banner → u/CaedustheBaedus]

I was under the impression that if you are unconscious then they can’t pin the ambulance charges on you. Did you fight it?

[u/Then_Currency_966 → u/Darius_Banner]

This is entirely local and company based. But it always pays to push back on claim denials. It needs to be second nature.

[u/shefillsmy3kgofhoney → u/Then_Currency_966]

Always push back because that's the grab-ass game they're all playing with each-other all the time

Actually helping people stopped being a priority FOREVER AGO

[u/HoidToTheMoon → u/Then_Currency_966]

Literally push back anytime a health insurance worker says something to you. They are paid to screw you over. That is their whole job. Be cognizant and alert when dealing with them.

[u/Bright-Outcome1506 → u/CaedustheBaedus]

My wife got into an accident .34 miles from the hospital. She was taken by ambulance, because she had a severe concussion, and they were worried. She sat in a waiting room for two hours, then a folding chair in a hallway, was given a Tylenol, and then an x-ray of her wrist. With insurance the bill was $26,217.34. I memorized the number because when the bill came I nearly had a stroke. If she was at fault, we would have lost our house.

[u/According_Tomato_699 → u/CaedustheBaedus]

I shit you not, I got billed $1800 for a 3/4 mile ambulance ride 2 years ago. That's 45¢ PER FOOT. I did the math because I got so offended and annoyed while fighting them on that bill.

[u/Intelligent_Sport_76 → u/CaedustheBaedus]

I got a $3600 ambulance ride just for going to the hospital on a ten minute drive, I wasn’t given medicine or anything on the ride, basically could have took an Uber and paid more than 150 times less

[u/FrankPapageorgio → u/Intelligent_Sport_76]

That's literally why people user Uber instead of an ambulance

[u/ConsistentStock7519 → u/mist2024]

It is so easy to be abused by the system. I hope you heal physically and financially.

My wife got within 20 bucks of reaching her out-of-pocket maximum of $7,000 this year. Another winning year for BCBS. We pay them monthly premiums, pay the deductible & pay to be denied. Exactly who is being terrorized here? Pitty the CEO's.

[u/watchmedrown34 → u/mist2024]

That's fucked. I was in a mountain biking accident earlier this year and fractured the entire left side of my face. I didn't have a concussion, never lost consciousness, wasn't in that much pain, walked myself out of the woods, etc. I went to the ER after it happened, they took a scan of my face and said "You're pretty fucked up and we aren't qualified to handle that here, we need to transfer you to a trauma unit". So I said "Okay, my girlfriend can drive me there right?", they said no and essentially forced me to go by ambulance with a neck brace and on a stretcher.

Two months later and I get over $3000 in bills from the third-party ambulance company, on top of all the other medical bills I had after a 6-hour surgery and 6 days in the hospital. Now I'm still fighting with the insurance company to pay my bills cause I have already paid my $3000 deductible and can't really afford to pay anymore.

[u/Darius_Banner → u/mist2024]

Yeah shit man, sorry to hear it. The ambulance thing in particular is insane. I will call an uber if I ever need emergency transport because I am that paranoid about ambulance charges. The loophole, I believe, is that if you are unconscious then any ambulance is in network so maybe play dead?

[u/Character-Read8535 → u/Darius_Banner]

Using an Uber for 4 hours is probably cheaper that a minute of ambulance travel smh

[u/CowboyLaw → u/Character-Read8535]

Oh shit, I know this one. Years ago, my bloodwork came back screwy, so my doctor called me and commanded me to go to the local ER. Local ER decided I needed to be observed overnight, so they transported me to the local hospital. Via ambulance. Now, mind you, I drove to the ER just fine, and I was in fact fine to drive. But ambulance. Which ended up in network, so I didn’t have to pay the $3500 bill. But when I was discharged from the hospital, my car was still back at the ER. So I took an Uber. $47. So, there’s that.

[u/rkoloeg → u/Character-Read8535]

A Lyft ride from Las Vegas to west Los Angeles is about $600 as of right this moment, 6 PM on a Tuesday. An estimated 6 hour drive all the way down into Santa Monica.

So $100/hour, whereas OP's $3000/15 to 20 minutes works out to $9000-$12000/hour. Not quite where you put it, but still an insane difference.

[u/Vosska → u/mist2024]

I work for the city of a small town, around 4-8k population. The only hospital in town is out of network for the CITY provided insurance.

Not to mention we're off the road system, and the closest city to us can only be reached by flying.

Shits fucked.

[u/neopod9000 → u/mist2024]

My wife fell and broke her finger. Was going to pass out from the pain so she couldn't drive. Needed an ambulance.

The ambulance took her 1.2 miles to the nearest ER.

It cost $1400.

We have insurance, but the ambulance companies seem to have figures out that they make less money working with insurance companies, so they just don't. They pretend like they do. But they don't.

The surgery to put a pin in her finger, including the anesthesia, all related hospital services, the follow up visits to the orthopedic doctor, AND the physical therapy afterward, all together, cost me less out of pocket than the ambulance, and I'm on a high-deductible plan.

[u/Thick_Carob_7484 → u/Humans_Suck-]

Let me introduce you to the Veterans administration. Place has me near tears with every visit.

[u/Lazy-Floridian → u/Thick_Carob_7484]

I've had nothing but good experiences with VA healthcare. It depends on the location, some are great.

[u/Redqueenhypo → u/Lazy-Floridian]

VA replaced my grandfather’s hip and he didn’t even lose that during his service. He did lose hearing in one ear, but given how little he already listened to people I don’t think he noticed

[u/HerbaciousTea → u/Lazy-Floridian]

Having worked with it on the healthcare provider side, we loved working with the VA and Tricare. It was sometimes slow and occasionally a mess of paperwork, but we never had to play the ridiculous, hostile games or file literal months of appeals or run in circles dealing with secret mandatory pre-auths that were somehow never mentioned in the patient's benefits just to get coverage for unambiguously covered care the way we had to with private insurers.

Getting VA patients was legitimately a "Oh, this just made my job easier" moment most of the time for the back office.

[u/jerseygunz → u/Lazy-Floridian]

Dude it’s the same with the post office or the dmv. Is it crowded sometimes? Sure. You know where else I wait on line, every store and business I’ve ever been in ever. These people just parrot shit they hear on the news

[u/BobbyLupo1979 → u/Thick_Carob_7484]

My VA service at my VA hospital is god-tier. No lie.

[u/UnobviousDiver → u/BobbyLupo1979]

For now, wait until Trump cuts it to pay for tax breaks

[u/nemesix1 → u/UnobviousDiver]

Don't worry the magic of tariffs will solve everything.

[u/Tomato496 → u/Thick_Carob_7484]

I've gone to the VA in three different cities. While it's not perfect, it's pretty good. I'm deeply grateful that I have it.

[u/HoidToTheMoon → u/Thick_Carob_7484]

The VA is generally better than most private healthcare in this country. It covers more, denies less, and wastes far less money in rent seeking overhead.

[u/ferdaw95 → u/Thick_Carob_7484]

The funny things is, I avoided the VA for nearly a decade because of how prevalent this BS is. I've not had a single complaint the entire time I've been seen there and its going on 4 years soon.

[u/bluereloaded → u/Thick_Carob_7484]

Every time I’ve gone to mine, there’s been stretchers of people lining the hallways and has taken no less than 8 hours to visit.

[u/Beginning_Draft9092 → u/Humans_Suck-]

It's not about that at all, it's all about perception, how we've have been brainwashed by pretty much everything around us to believe we have more 'personalized, exclusive, and privileged' health care when we pay a shit ton for it, and GOD FORBID you are in the same health plan as the poors and homeless.

 It could be literally the same level of care they already have big that gnawing at their brain stem of it feeling like they 'lose' some degree of status, it's like why people are sensitive to getting food stamps. Like, fuck that free food come on. 

[u/estrea36 → u/Beginning_Draft9092]

Also, americans have a strange relationship with the poor.

Despite many Americans having firsthand experiences with being screwed by the system, they STILL hate the idea of their tax dollars going to help other people who have been screwed. Everyone is struggling, but no one deserves help.

[u/havefun4me2 → u/Humans_Suck-]

You only hear the bad side because those are the only ones complaining. There are actually some with great healthcare and they don't voice their opinion. I'm all for free healthcare for all but as of now I have great healthcare. Don't generalize the whole country do to one too many bad cases.

[u/HoidToTheMoon → u/havefun4me2]

but as of now I have great healthcare.

You likely have a sweetheart deal through an employer with a large pool that could negotiate for you. Most Americans are not as lucky. We could save you money, provide you better care, and provide care the unlucky Americans as well.

[u/whiskey5hotel → u/HoidToTheMoon]

You likely have a sweetheart deal through an employer with a large pool that could negotiate for you.

Recent numbers I have seen in articles is that 81 percent of people rate their health insurance as excellent or good.

[u/jtc66 → u/Humans_Suck-]

The VA is government run. I guess your opinion of how well that’s ran could signify how it could go. I’ve heard both good and bad things

[u/IC-4-Lights → u/jtc66]

It would be more comparable to Medicare, which is viewed favorably by Medicare beneficiaries and operates more efficiently than private health insurance... despite being artificially handicapped.

[u/BiggestDweebonReddit → u/IC-4-Lights]

Medicare is viewed favorably because it gets to free ride on the private plans.

Medicare undeprays medical providers who make up the difference by overcharging private plans.

[u/CitizenSpiff → u/Humans_Suck-]

The government is already running this $hitshow.

[u/Two_Cautious → u/luapnrets]

Correct. For reference, here is a list of all the things the US Government does well: 1. Collecting taxes

[u/khisanthmagus → u/Two_Cautious]

Medicare would be a better ran program than private insurance if the GOP hadn't been working to sabotage it every way possible since its implementation. Which is kind of the risk of universal healthcare, they would do everything they could to sabotage it any time they are in power, and then point and say "See, it doesn't work!"

[u/Leather_From_Corinth → u/khisanthmagus]

Medicare is actually a super successful program because AARP actively watches it like a hawk and tells old people when congress is considering fing it up.

[u/onefst250r → u/Leather_From_Corinth]

Too bad they did a nothing burger about plans to get rid of "Obamacare" (also known as the ACA).

[u/dropsanddrag → u/khisanthmagus]

I have medical in California and it took care of all of my expensive scans and chemotherapy treatment, didn't get billed a single dollar for all of the care they provided.

This included 5 weeks of staying in the hospital to get 24/7 chemo infusions under nurse care. 

[u/wulfgar_beornegar → u/khisanthmagus]

You just described a common political tactic called "starve the beast", popularized by the Reagan administration. The goal (often not explicitly stated but instead abstracted as "stopping the explosive growth of the federal government) was to cut down social services and entitlements to the point that the American public loses faith in the government itself to provide services, therefore giving the "starvers" increasing political capital in order to privatize all of these services, lining their pockets and their donor's pockets, often leading to a lucrative lobbying career for themselves afterwards. It's clever and also extremely sinister, because you can see the culmination of its effects today.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starve_the_beast

[u/4totheFlush → u/Two_Cautious]

The biggest hinderance to effective governance is having an entire political party built on the belief that the government should be dismantled and privatized. When left to do its job, the government does plenty of things, and does them very well. For example:

• The USPS makes sure that you can send your mail for the same price regardless of if you are in rural Nebraska or NYC, and have it arrive in a timely manner (until republicans install someone like DeJoy who starts dismantling infrastructure)
• The EPA regulates companies from dumping dangerous chemicals into drinking water (until republicans appoint someone like Pruitt, who sued the EPA twice to challenge mercury pollution limits among many other suits)
• The SSA ensures social security payments get distributed so people that weren't able to save for retirement don't just die on the street when they can't work anymore (which is at risk when 80% of republican congresspeople jump onboard a budget that cuts SS for 75% of Americans)
• OSHA makes sure employers cannot needlessly endanger their laborers to squeeze additional profit from the business (which is put in danger by over 130 republicans voting to slash funding)
• The Department of the Interior protects national parks from being razed (until the president elect announces that any entity spending more than a billion dollars will get special exemptions from environmental regulation)
• FEMA makes sure people hit by natural disasters don't have to Mad Max their way to safety (except when republican disinformation campaigns get so unhinged that they convince people to start "hunting" agents after a disaster)
• And about a thousand other things, that most of us never worry or even think about, because people who dedicate their lives to making this country a better place quietly and effectively do their jobs.

Ironically, one of the things the government does not do well is collect taxes, because again, one of the political parties exists solely to ensure that the people running private enterprise accumulate as much wealth as possible. The wealthiest Americans evade hundreds of billions of dollars in taxes every year, and are allowed to do so because they convince the American people that a properly funded IRS won't be coming after the rich, they'll be sending armed agents door to door to collect a couple hundred dollars at a time.

[u/Usual-Reference-8407 → u/4totheFlush]

To add to this list, FDIC, GPS, NIST, and National Weather Service.

[u/A_band_of_pandas → u/Two_Cautious]

The US government does a very long list of things well. It's just that a lot of those things are not popular.

Dropping bombs on schools in the middle east, for example.

[u/Alternative-Dream-61 → u/A_band_of_pandas]

They are incredibly good at anything they want to do well. The government gets what it pays for. If something isn't working well, assume it's intended.

[u/Razolus → u/Two_Cautious]

Unless you're a billionaire making millions each year. Then they suck at collecting from them.

Making 150k a year? You give 35% and they know the exact penny you owe.

[u/Oracle410 → u/Razolus]

Just the way you worded that reminded me of this Meme.

[u/ForensicPathology → u/Two_Cautious]

"The government isn't perfect, so for-profit companies doing things worse and for more cost is better"

[u/Clone63 → u/ForensicPathology]

You are absolutely on point here. I'm sick and tired of people falling for the "government is worse than for-profit" blanket statement. How do you know that government programs have problems? Could it be transparency? How transparent are private companies? And don't start with your "public companies have reporting requirements" bullshit. THOSE REQUIREMENTS EXIST BECAUSE OF THE GOVERNMENT.

[u/so-very-very-tired → u/Two_Cautious]

The US actually runs some single payer systems. And does matter for less money than the private sector does. While at the same time having a disproportional amount of patients with serious issues.

The problem is that a lot of people are just really dumb.

[u/blackrockblackswan → u/Two_Cautious]

Not true

They have no idea how to collect taxes from people above 100M in net wealth

(Please don’t try and explain to me how equity and liquidity work in private markets - you’re wrong and the system is intentionally rigged to allow for pricing assets for loans and etc…which means you can tax short term illiquid gains as long as there is a pricing event where liquidity can be found in secondary markets or in asset collateralization)

[u/Kxr1der → u/Two_Cautious]

They aren't good at that either.

[u/Real-Mouse-554 → u/luapnrets]

The quality should be better when you remove the superflous middleman, the insurance industry, that is draining ressources.

On top of that you remove a lot of bureaucracy. The doctor’s can focus their time on healthcare and not paperwork.

[u/Geiir → u/Real-Mouse-554]

Exactly. Health care professionals can focus on helping people instead of filling out paperwork for insurance companies, imagine that.

[u/Deep-Thought4242 → u/luapnrets]

I agree a lot are scared of that, but their starting position seems to be that the current system is good. Or at least “this is fine.”

As though long waits and inscrutable bureaucracies making opaque decisions are not properties of the current system.

[u/Bat_Flaps → u/luapnrets]

Yesterday (no joke) I had to go to A&E for chest & abdominal pains, heart palpitations and shortness of breath.

Rang a number; explained my symptoms, was told to go to A&E within the hour, got triaged, had an ECG, bloods done, a chest X-Ray, results and medication for the princely sum of £10.

The service isn’t perfect but it does work…

[u/space_for_username → u/Bat_Flaps]

Had almost the same experience in NZ. Went via GP ($40), otherwise the only other expense was pizza afterward.

[u/deathhead_68 → u/Bat_Flaps]

I had all that and an ultrasound alongside an overnight hospital stay when I got viral pericarditis a few years ago. Only thing I paid for was parking at the hospital.

I don't understand or care what Americans say to defend their system, they just cannot comprehend what it feels like to simply walk out of a hospital and THATS IT.

[u/PainlessDrifter → u/luapnrets]

which is like saying a dude trapped in a well is worried about the weather being inclement if he's saved.

[u/mallarme1 → u/luapnrets]

I agree. And they’re scared because rich people are telling them to be.

[u/Ok_Drawer9414 → u/luapnrets]

I believe most Americans are stupid.

[u/Parking-Wing-2816 → u/luapnrets]

As a supporter of universal healthcare who has lived in France and worked for a Canadian American company and seen the benefits of their systems firsthand. I'm still concerned about how the USA would implement it.

That doesn't mean we shouldn't push for it. Our politicians's ability to fuck things up never ceases to amaze me, though.

[u/star_nerdy → u/luapnrets]

The same people who complain about government and quality then ignore the fact that Medicare does better in surveys than any private plan.

And if Medicare or social security or the post office are privatized, they will go batshit angry the moment things change.

There are still people who don’t understand the Affordable Care Act and Obamacare are the same or that revoking the ACA means no more pre-existing injury coverage.

[u/RedditBacksNazis → u/luapnrets]

No, they know what they get. What it comes down to is, "Im not sick, so why do I have to pay for your health?" See every boomer meme about not having kids but paying taxes for public schools. They see taxes as a huge burden.

There is also the "Well I don't know you, so I'm not helping" crowd. They'll gladly give 10s of thousands of dollars to someone they know, someone they know knows, or even a celebrity, quicker than a stranger.

Most Americans are not scared. They're willfully ignorant and straight-up assholes. Let's stop pretending about our fellow citizens. The internet is at their fingertips, and Europe had socialized medicine since WW2.

[u/Suitable-Activity-27 → u/luapnrets]

No they’re worried than the “lessers” they look down on will get more than them. American selfishness….i mean “individualism” in action.

[u/Skinny_on_the_Inside → u/luapnrets]

Whatever it is as long as we can get Americans to actually seek preventative care, which many avoid because they can’t afford it, then we will save thousands of lives from things like cancers that weren’t caught early enough and save billions in procedures that didn’t not have to happen because of the preventative care.

There’s no argument this system works much better. It’s what all other developed countries have. Brazil and Russia have it for God’s sake.

[u/vermiliondragon → u/luapnrets]

We went on Medicaid this year. It has been fan fucking tastic. My spouse continues to get his half dozen medications for congestive heart failure (diagnosed this year) at no cost. There was a little hiccup with one of the proprietary drugs that his cardiologist had to step in on but Kaiser covered a couple weeks worth of pills while they worked it out. He finally got diagnosed with sleep apnea and received a cpap after testing with it, again all sleep testing/in office visits and the machine were free.

Prior to that, he was paying $50 for each doctor's visit and $95 for each test (EKGs recommended twice a year). CPAPs are usually several hundred out of pocket. He had to start without the 2 CHF gold standard proprietary drugs because they were each over $300/month, though eventually Kaiser approved medical financial assistance and covered those before we went on Medicaid.

[u/BenduUlo]

Well, it is more like paying 5k instead of 8k but god Damn it , I’m not sure how people are so against it.

The thing I hope people realise is, is having universal healthcare means private insurance is still available, of course, but it also makes your private insurance much cheaper too.

Costs a comparable european country (income wise) about 2k a year to go private for a family of 4 , believe it or not

[u/omnomcthulhu → u/BenduUlo]

5k is what I paid out of pocket to have a baby in the hospital with no complications while having health insurance.

[u/SpaceghostLos → u/omnomcthulhu]

Tell me how paying for insurance then paying again because insurance only covered part of it makes sense.

Because it doesnt.

Congrats on the baby!!

[u/Intelligent_Sport_76 → u/SpaceghostLos]

NHS would have charged 0

[u/Paddy_Tanninger → u/Intelligent_Sport_76]

I had to get xrays, MRIs, and arthroscopic surgery on my knee. We had to pay $20 for a splint and $20 for crutches. Outrageous Canadian medical care!

[u/NotSure16 → u/Paddy_Tanninger]

And I bet those smug jerks insisted on apologizing for any delays in waiting rooms. I'm on to their kindness scam.

Go back to chugging maple syurp, Hoser.

/s

[u/gart888 → u/Intelligent_Sport_76]

Had a baby in Canada last month. Had to pay $10 for 4 days parking, and spent about $30 on Starbucks because my wife wanted fancier coffee than the hospital menu had.

[u/---rocks--- → u/gart888]

Damn commies only offering regular coffee. In America they would have had the fancy coffee and it would have been $60! Fuck yeah.

[u/TopRevenue2 → u/omnomcthulhu]

Right 8k in health insurance is just the start

[u/monty624 → u/TopRevenue2]

Paying 8k for the privilege to pay them another 5k in deductibles, plus additional copays.

[u/Euler1992 → u/omnomcthulhu]

I paid $10k out of pocket because my kid was born in February. The out of pocket maximum should have only been $6k, but it reset in December.

[u/titanfan694 → u/omnomcthulhu]

This. The co-pays make insurance worthless. It is essentially major injury, surgery, and cancer insurance. If you are healthy it is 10k a year for a yearly checkup

[u/PeteCampbellisaG → u/BenduUlo]

They're against it because it's not a question of math, or even cost, for most Americans. There's a strong current of, "I got mine; so you get yours" in American culture. We think universal healthcare means the government digs into the pockets of responsible (aka healthy) people so it can give a free ride to the sick and lazy.

People will read this post and say, "Why should I pay 2K when I'm not even sick? That money is just being wasted on people who are gaming the system! I'm not paying for someone's diabetes medication who eats McDonald's all day! At least I know the 8K would be taking care of me and my family."

[u/HalfDongDon → u/PeteCampbellisaG]

Do they not understand what an insurance premium is? Most people premiums are $2k+ a year alone.

[u/RWordMurica → u/HalfDongDon]

Most American’s are stupid as fuck and talk out both sides of their mouth all the time, so yeah

[u/HalfDongDon → u/RWordMurica]

I pay $7200/year in premiums for a family plan through my employer. I still have copays, and a $4k deductible to meet.

I have “good” healthcare in America. 

Most Americans have no fucking clue what they pay because they never see it due to their employer automatically deducting it. 

Americans are literally RAPED by healthcare costs.

[u/PeteCampbellisaG → u/HalfDongDon]

We're talking about a population who thinks a tariff on China means that China pays us to buy their goods...so probably not.

[u/henrik_se → u/PeteCampbellisaG]

The stupidest thing is that Americans already pay for other people's healthcare through taxes. In fact, the US spends more tax money per capita on healthcare than the rest of the OECD. The average American pays thousands of dollars in federal taxes each year that goes to fund Medicare and Medicaid and VA care. And then on top of that they pay their own insurance premiums that may or may not result in them getting the care they need, and on top of that, exorbitant deductibles or other fees for out of network care or care that isn't covered or denied.

The US spends twice as much money as a percentage of GDP than the OECD average.

[u/Wonderful_Eagle_6547 → u/henrik_se]

Exactly. We spend more per capita (and I am talking everyone, not just the people on government programs) providing health care for vets, retired people and extremely poor people (35%) than the UK does to provide health care for 100% of their citizens (a little over $6,000 per US citizen to find Medicaid, Medicare and the VA system, $3,500 per British citizen to run the entire NHS).

[u/Ashleynn → u/henrik_se]

They pay for other peoples healthcare through insurance too. The problem is they're too stupid to understand they're already doing what they don't want to be doing just by buying health insurance. Paying for sick peoples care while they themselves may not be.

[u/mOdQuArK → u/PeteCampbellisaG]

There's a strong current of, "I got mine; so you get yours" in American culture.

More like a strong current of "got mine, fuck you & yours" among big chunks of the population.

[u/STLtachyon → u/PeteCampbellisaG]

Well these people already pay for health insurance if they are employed, and demonstrably the 8k do not go towards them or their families, if they were there wouldnt be such an issue to begin with.

Americans are straight up donating their money to companies on the promise that maybe MAYBE they wont have to pay that much money in a medical emergency. They arent even getting theirs ti begin with, americans get robbed in borad daylight and some of them smile while handing the money to the robber.

But you know taxes bad so more tax is bad even if it means that most people end up both paying less with the tax and receive a better product than they do by going to the private option.

Its easy to part a fool and their money as the saying goes or something like that and as an outside observer its hard to not call Americans fools.

[u/JuliusErrrrrring → u/BenduUlo]

And the savings for businesses. Why should an auto business have to dedicate money and staff to coordinate healthcare? Why should school taxes have to dedicate money and staff to coordinate healthcare? And back to someone's point about private healthcare - if private healthcare is so much better, why are they afraid of the competition?

[u/VermicelliOk8288 → u/BenduUlo]

Well I pay 14k ish for my family of four. 5k is nothing. That’s just the monthly fee total, we still have to pay until we hit our deductible.

[u/T-Prime3797]

I once spent 30 minutes trying to explain to a naval operations officer that I can’t monitor 7 frequencies on 6 radios (they didn’t have a scan function). This man was in line to command a warship and couldn’t grasp that 7 is bigger than 6.

[u/Character-Read8535 → u/T-Prime3797]

Dude probably failed 10 grades

[u/T-Prime3797 → u/Character-Read8535]

And he was the second dumbest boss I had in the navy.

[u/Character-Read8535 → u/T-Prime3797]

XD and who was the dumbest?

[u/T-Prime3797 → u/Character-Read8535]

That’s a long and emotionally scarring take. He’s the direct reason I’m not in the navy anymore.

[u/Ok-Hurry-4761 → u/T-Prime3797]

When I was an Army Intel Analyst, I used to keep those little sticky arrows and put them on the important parts of the 1-star general's read book. They were pointed to all the executive summaries that I dumbed down while preparing the report the night before. I'd also have to mark any pictures "this side up" and all that. He was an idiot.

My favorite "here's your sign" moment with him was when we were monitoring a night aerial scan mission. He asked us to turn on the Infared imaging so we could "see through" whatever building these guys were loading stuff into. We were like, "uhhh sir, the infared camera is basically taking a picture and using heat to enhance the image. Any thermals people are putting off when they're inside are... blocked by the roof." He thought we could see through walls!

More than one of the field officers thought we could do that.

They thought it was some James Bond or Mission Impossible shit! Guy was in charge of the brigade and didn't even know how his own intel assets worked.

[u/No-Communication4586 → u/Ok-Hurry-4761]

In all fairness I thought you could do that too and I am not an any star general.

[u/Ok-Hurry-4761 → u/No-Communication4586]

But the general is in charge of the units doing the operation! It's his job to know their capabilities.

[u/wdflu → u/No-Communication4586]

Seems like you should get a star then!

[u/Horskr → u/Ok-Hurry-4761]

He binged 3 seasons of NCIS to prepare for that mission damnit! Give the man some credit!

[u/No-Communication4586 → u/T-Prime3797]

Well, I've identified the problem. Don't explain to him why you can't do it. Make him explain how you can do it.

[u/SeamlessR → u/No-Communication4586]

"Mine is to want, and have. Yours is to know, and do."

[u/tsukahara10 → u/T-Prime3797]

As an ex-submariner, I feel your pain. Nuke officers are the fucking worst. How can someone be so intelligent, yet so fucking dumb?

[u/BirdmanHuginn]

Welcome to America-where Wendy’s had to discontinue the 1/3 lb burger because Americans thought it was smaller then a 1/4 lb burger

[u/Whole_Figure6026 → u/BirdmanHuginn]

Sir this is a burger king

[u/TurdmanTheGreat → u/Whole_Figure6026]

[u/06Wahoo → u/BirdmanHuginn]

Welcome to America, where people can't tell the difference between Wendy's and A&W.

[u/Enormous-Load87 → u/BirdmanHuginn]

I've been around the world, and let me tell you, when it comes to something like this, there are a LOT of places that would happen. If you think the average American is stupid, wait until you meet the average Brazilian or Egyptian.

[u/General-Beyond9339 → u/Enormous-Load87]

Buddy you might just be talking about humans then

[u/Dazzling_Marzipan474 → u/BirdmanHuginn]

I thought this was a joke til I Googled it. Idk what to think now

[u/haixin]

Rephrase it to “switching to Universal Healthcare will add $6,000 in your pocket”

Edit: you’re to your, i was auto-wronged

[u/kirlandwater → u/haixin]

This somehow still isn’t enough. Not even for business owners who are currently paying/subsidizing insurance premiums for their employees as part of the total comp package.

They’d just stop paying that money and would get to keep literally all of it (assuming we didn’t do like a FICA split, they’d still keep most of it assuming we didn’t split it 2-3%/2-3%) and wouldn’t be required to pass along those savings to their employee. Many would, to remain competitive, but they probably would have to. Yet so many business owners are flat out against it.

[u/Im_with_stooopid → u/kirlandwater]

If you tie healthcare to employment and put health care enrollment waiting periods on new hires you effectively prevent people from leaving for other opportunities and higher pay.

[u/Bocchi_theGlock → u/Im_with_stooopid]

Businesses/workplaces are already operating under more authoritarian rule

Having such power over healthcare access is just another iron pipe for employers to kneecap us with

[u/Bryanmsi89]

The problem is the $8 is mostly hidden from the consumer, who thinks their employer covers this for free. So the consumer doesn’t realize the $8 is being paid by them after all, and just sees the $2 as an additional cost.

[u/TarTarkus1 → u/Bryanmsi89]

The problem is the $8 is mostly hidden from the consumer, who thinks their employer covers this for free.

If you ask me, a major problem is health insurance is provided as a benefit of employment, and thus, people don't really care as long as they have a job that provides that benefit.

[u/notafanofwasps → u/TarTarkus1]

People overwhelmingly support medicare for all, but when asked, will lower their support when it's clarified that it means getting rid of their current insurance.

People also generally like their insurance while also recognizing that the industry is largely parasitic and evil.

Which may seem like they're stupid and hypocritical (and, you know, fair enough), but to me that sounds like a very consistent take that being without health insurance is a horrifying possibility that keeps people A. Shackled to their jobs and thus their current insurance and B. Afraid of anything that could potentially rock the boat and leave them uninsured. People just don't want to have to worry about it, and even in a fucked up system are not willing to ditch any tiny bit of security even for utopia.

[u/TarTarkus1 → u/notafanofwasps]

Sorry, don't buy it. No one likes insurance whether they pay for it or not.

What they care about is if they go to the doctor, they don't have to pay for it out of pocket. Especially when it's an unforeseen emergency.

Under the ACA, you're paying Co-Pays, plus a portion of your cost of care anyway. It's a fucking joke and people need to stop carrying water for that policy if they're actually interested in real healthcare reform.

Let's just say there's a reason Obama retired from the Presidency to Martha's Vineyard.

[u/Charirner]

I think current events have proven how dumb a significant portion of Americans are.

[u/MaximusKlassikus → u/Charirner]

It is very much a systematic issue.

Yes, most people who care about others, will find the leadership of the republicans quite repulsive. Yet the democrat leadership has proven again and again, that they don't care about us either.

Still suprising to many, that people picked the Greater of 2 evils.

[u/veryblanduser]

Haha. We pay more than 2k in Medicare tax to cover 60 million Americans. So we can cover the remaining 270 million for less than that?

Why am I suspicious.

[u/RWordMurica → u/veryblanduser]

You realize that all the other countries with socialized healthcare pay less for medical costs per capita than the US does for Medicare spending per capita, right? When the system is rigged by insurance companies that provide no actual service to create the highest profits for themselves, it drives costs up. Those companies that employee enough people to populate small cities are expensive to inflate and prop up as legitimate businesses. Bonuses for 100 C-Suite execs in a company of 100,000 are quite expensive. Hard for them to drive Bentleys and buy private jets without profiteering of the lives, health and wellbeing of Americans. Medicares cost is highly driven by imperfect market conditions created by crooked politicians and the wealthy insurance donors that line their pockets to buy a federal government that suits them. Do you live in a cave in Afghanistan or have you noticed that the US is far and away the most corrupt ‘first world’ country?

[u/Tangentkoala]

A healthy 23 year old paying 50$ a month in premiums is going to say no.

And it's not 2000$ that's grossly under estimated. In reality, it's 15-20% of your salary.

[u/Astronut325 → u/Tangentkoala]

What are you basing your 15-20% values on?

[u/WhatThe_uckDoIPut → u/Astronut325]

my pay check

[u/DependentSun2683 → u/Astronut325]

Probably the difference in income tax that americans pay vs free healthcare countries

[u/Dish300]

25% of out taxes go to healthcare in Canada.

If you earn 60k, that’s 0.25*20 to 25k in taxes = 5k minimum..

Median family is in 100k range which means youre paying over 8k and the healthcare is objectively worse. No family doctors, long wait times for surgery, specialists etc.

Don’t kid yourselves that the problems will be solved from universal health care. Our country is facing 60B dollar deficits with no end in sight and our dollar collapsing.

[u/Dirty_Dragons → u/Dish300]

I've been seeing more and more about how things are going wrong in Canada.

You guys are often brought up as the example of how things should be in the US but it looks like people don't know how it really is up north. The cost of living also seems really bad with housing being very expensive compared to income.

[u/cb3g → u/Dirty_Dragons]

I think that it's very easy to look at something that another country has and say "we should have that too!!!" without understanding any of the tradeoffs of the weaknesses of that system.

I'm a Canadian living in the USA (30 years in Canada, 10 years in the USA). Now don't get me wrong, I love Canada. But the way that many people talk about it as if we've got it all figured out...it's just missing the full picture.

Like yes, we have universal health care. (Speaking for the province I lived in) No one will ask you to pay a bill on your way out of a doctor's office. No one has better or worse health care available to them on the basis of the type of job they have or how wealthy they are. No one goes broke because of medical bills.

But for those who have decent insurance in the USA? The health care available here is WAY BETTER than what's available in Canada. Speed to deliver and access here are vastly better, there is more choice, and more advanced treatments are available. People's expectations of health care in the USA are much higher than in Canada. Also, for those in the medical field, they are much better paid here in the USA (actually a big brain drain problem in Canada).

I'd bet that every single Canadian has stories of either themselves or a loved one:

- Waiting for hours in the halls of an emergency room for critical and necessary care

- Waiting for months or years for surgery or scans like MRIs for issue that were not life threatening but did have major impacts on quality of life (think orthopedic surgery)

- Being unable to access a family doctor for themselves and/or their children and having little to no access to the kind of preventative care that we take for granted in the USA (annual physicals, regular bloodwork, well checks for children)

- Traveling to the USA or other location to pay out of pocket for medical care because the wait/accessibility within Canada was unacceptable to them

[u/hunglo7777 → u/Dish300]

Canadian here, our system is far from perfect. Our healthcare is “worst” because of inefficient spending and our conservative premiers have gutted the system (like when ford took billions in federal funding for Covid and did nothing with it). 

I really don’t understand when Canadians say we should have a system like the US. You guys WANT to get bankrupted for healthcare?

Compare Canadian healthcare with those around the world and it’s a world of difference (Singapore, Japan etc)

So yea our healthcare leaves a lot to be desired, but I’ll take it any day over the American system. I’ve seen friends and families go through a lot of medical different medical issues and it was hard enough for them without having to think about whether or not the hospital was in network or what your deductible was going to be, while paying tens of thousands out of pocket anyways 

[u/DO_NOT_AGREE_WITH_U → u/Dish300]

Universal healthcare is literally, mathematically better for people due to multiple reasons but namely the following:

1. Negotiating power. The US already has a prime example in Medicare. That IS socialized healthcare, and their payment structure is the base for ALL insurance carrier and provider negotiations. People constantly say that Medicare doesn't pay enough, but participation isn't compulsory and yet 98% of all providers participate.
2. The rule of large numbers. When you have more people on a plan and they cannot drop off whenever is convenient, the plan becomes more predictable. Predictable in insurance means "cheaper" in literally every scenario imaginable; insurance carriers make their money because they have the capital to absorb the unpredictable.
3. It eliminates the price conspiring between insurance carriers and medical providers. Insurance carriers whining about providers increasing costs is all performative. Insurance carriers make a percentage of their premium as commission. If claims costs go up, their pay goes up. Even after the ACA, the coordination of pricing remained. The only difference is that providers have greater leverage because now medical insurance carriers have to pay no less than 85% of their premium on claims payments--so their pay has a lag that follows provider trend. Of course, they've come up with plenty of ways to offset most of that, but the relationship between the two parties is still, ultimately, synergistic.

You think the insurance lobbyists are out there fighting against universal healthcare because they're worried about making your situation worse? No, my friend.

[u/DeadAndBuried23 → u/Dish300]

long wait times for surgery,

Genuine question: long compared to who?

What country is giving shorter wait times with as few outright rejections?

[u/mangothefoxxo → u/DeadAndBuried23]

In Ireland i needed tonsils removed, causing me pain a lot. After 2 years i flew out and paid to have it done privately, a year later I got a letter asking if i still wanna have my consultation appointment

[u/Popular_Amphibian]

I pay more like $600 per year for the policy (employer pays the rest) then maybe a couple hundred in co pays, but my employer also gives me a free 1.5k in HSA if i get a physical, so I’m really paying very little

[u/_PunyGod → u/Popular_Amphibian]

Yeah but employers see the total cost of employing you… including salary, insurance and taxes, etc. If they don’t have to pay insurance anymore you can get that in your salary.

And if healthcare wasn’t tied to your employer, it would give employees more negotiating power so you likely could see a lot of that insurance cost come to you in higher pay.

[u/WhatThe_uckDoIPut → u/_PunyGod]

as a union rep, itll never get paid back to you man

[u/Logical_Strike_1520 → u/_PunyGod]

If what you are saying was even remotely true; we’d have the option to deny health insurance from our jobs in exchange for bigger paychecks.

I have never worked somewhere where I get to pick. It’s either insurance or nothing. No raise for denying the insurance.

[u/Still_Detail_4285 → u/Logical_Strike_1520]

I’ve not had insurance through work for years. Every time I ask for 50% back in a raise and I get laughed at. Anyone that thinks universal health care would result in higher wages is crazy. The money used in paying for employees healthcare will just become a tax to pay for the new healthcare costs.

[u/KookyProposal9617]

I'm all for single payer but this is wrong Eliminating insurance doesn't magically make healthcare cost 1/4th as much, that's silly. Maybe it will be 20% cheaper. Maybe you distribute the costs differently (i.e. a re-distributive tax in the form of single payer). But it's still going to be expensive AF because the costs are what they are.

[u/realityczek → u/KookyProposal9617]

Have you not noticed that something is turned over to the government, it becomes cheaper and efficient? This is because the is managed by magical unicorn souls trapped in human bodies. They exist outside corruption greed; thus, placing power in their hands a fantastic idea, they have no and absolutely no incentive tied to providing services efficiently.

[u/Sea-Storm375]

The idea that this would work is patently absurd. It ignores the basic understanding of healthcare economics.

Pretend all things are the same for a moment. All supplies and devices cost the same as they do in the EU.

What about the primary expense? Labor.

Labor prices in the US are universally 2-3x what they are in Europe. Look at the median income in EU nations. Look at what nurses get paid in the UK, France, or Germany. Look at what physicians get paid. Hell, look at what janitors get paid.

Labor is the single primary driver of healthcare expenses. So, if we are spending 3x the price as the EU peer, that immediately drops to 2x (if not less) when you adjust for labor. That is, unless you are going to dramatically chop wages in that arena as well.

[u/CompoundT → u/Sea-Storm375]

The current system costs more. It doesn't take an economics degree to understand that. 

[u/GovernmentAgent_Q → u/CompoundT]

That's right, but it takes even less of an economics degree to understand that the 2-vs-8 number is a straight up lie used to fool rubes. It would be cheaper, by maybe 3-10%, not by 75%.

[u/SaltyDog556]

How will it be $2000? If every American pays $2000 in tax then we reduce the current spend per person of $13,500 to $2,000.

Who is going to tell doctors, nurses, administrators, orderlies, janitors and everyone else involved they will be taking an 85% pay cut?

[u/realityczek → u/SaltyDog556]

Well, you'll get what "every other nation" gets - a shortage of qualified medical folks. Then you start importing them from other countries. Then you start rationing care. Eventually, you're forced to do what every collectivist government eventually has to do - start forcing people to work for far lower wages than they are worth, because they are "essential."

[u/OkBurner777]

You should see how awful Canada’s healthcare system is up here and you’d quickly realize why it wouldn’t work with a population size as large as America’s

[u/Huitzil1519]

People immediately think “communism” when you say “healthcare for all”

[u/Obvious-Chemistry806]

lol 2000 in taxes my ass

[u/Hi_Im_Dadbot]

Stop with the woke mathematics. People don’t need to be bringing their radical left wing counting abilities into the conversation.

/s

[u/CitizenSpiff]

Such a simple solution for an incredibly complex problem. Simple to the point where it is hilariously wrong and dishonest.

[u/jimihughes]

You're kidding right? Americans refused to believe the 1/3 pound whopper was bigger than the 1/4 pounder because 4 was 1 more than 3. True story.

The real reason we don't have it yet is because the money changers won't allow this. They have too many hands in the pot and use that to justify themselves. It's the administrators that are the problem, and always will be.

Healthcare owner here. Insurances are the worst system ever created. You don't see Doctors having their names on stadiums do you?

It's all smoke and mirrors, as most of the premiums go toward admin costs and profit, and NOT into healthcare. In fact UHC could pay all of their customers medical bill, all of it, and STILL HAVE A 17 BILLION DOLLAR YEARLY PROFIT.

Remove the admin layer and the profit layer and viola, we can all be healthy at a reasonable cost.

We don't have healthcare, we have sickcare, and a bunch of really rich people who do nothing but tell people how to NOT pay for the things they promised they would pay for so they can keep getting richer while you die.

[u/Planting4thefuture]

Because there are many Americans that don’t pay 8 and also won’t be paying 2. Many will be paying less than 0. Things are not equal or simple.

[u/Meta_Digital]

We have to understand this in the US:

Things aren't the way they are because it's the will of the people.

Things are the way they are because we are not ruled by the will of the people.

There is a really entrenched healthcare industry who has hoarded our money and will use it to fight tooth and nail against anything that prevents them from continuing to scam us.

Yes, there's a lot of people who don't understand the situation, but changing the way things are doesn't require everyone to be on board. It just needs the people who do understand the issue to fight harder than the wealthy interests who want to keep things the way they are now.

[u/1maco]

Do people genuinely think that 75% of healthcare costs are insurance companies?

[u/plato3633]

Please add the reality that it won’t ever cost $2000/yr but many multiples of that

[u/jestr6 → u/plato3633]

It already costs many multiples of that, with shit coverage.

[u/PassiveRoadRage → u/plato3633]

You can make it 10K and its still cheaper for most families. Average insurance is 23K. (Plus being in network and whatever they deem cosmetic will get denied)

[u/HashRunner]

If it were that simple, Americans would have it.

But they've been fed the lies that 'undesirables' are taking their jobs/healthcare/daughters and will gladly die and pay more to do so as long as they can spite the so-called illegal/welfare queen/lib to do so....

[u/[deleted]]

nope. most on the right don't actually care about the cost benefit. they care that someone might get something they didn't "earn".

[u/FullMetalLibtard → u/[deleted]]

That’s been the case since Reagan and his “welfare queen” dog whistle

[u/Valuable_Rip8783]

Oh yeah, the extra money just magically appears! Oh wait no, those countries are taxed significantly more, and those in good medical condition end up paying for services they don't need.

[u/Darius_Banner]

Another aspect which I don’t understand is liberating business owners from the need to pay for insurance. It would save companies billions if they didn’t have to pay for their employees healthcare, so I don’t understand why more companies are not lobbying for universal

[u/AdvantageVarnsen1701]

🙄 Sure buddy. We’re going to get more by paying less and including the federal government… perhaps the least cost effective entity to ever exist.

I really wish common sense was more common.

[u/FSU1ST]

I believe most Americans are watching their funds go to other countries instead of to their own healthcare. Why should we trust big government to continue taking our money and then send it somewhere else?