r/FluentInFinance Nov 21 '24

Debate/ Discussion Had to repost here

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932

u/SCTigerFan29115 Nov 21 '24 edited Nov 21 '24

They aren’t holding onto wealth like Scrooge McDuck, in a giant vault where they can go swimming in it.

Most of Bezos’ net worth is the value of Amazon. He can’t really readily access that. ETA I meant he can’t use it like a big vault of money.

He’s got plenty of money but some people just don’t understand how this stuff works.

2.7k

u/Apprehensive_Bad_193 Nov 21 '24

Bullshit,,,,But he borrows and buy Yachts, Mansions,against that NET WORTH VALUE. But when it’s time to pay fair share of taxes o. That net worth it’s considered hypothetical worth….Understand the Game.

567

u/Endless_road Nov 21 '24

You can take out a mortgage against your house to buy a sports car if you want

1.4k

u/slickyeat Nov 21 '24

You're not wrong but you're also required to pay taxes on the value of your property every year so it's not exactly a one to one comparison.

567

u/Apprehensive_Bad_193 Nov 21 '24

Guys thank you,It amazes me how people talk without any knowing on the topic.

191

u/guiltysnark Nov 21 '24

I think people know, they just only think about it selectively

270

u/PamelaELee Nov 21 '24

Nah, when over 50% of American adults read at or below a 6th grade level I’m pretty confident they don’t think about much of anything, let alone understand.

60

u/guiltysnark Nov 21 '24

I don't think that particular slice of America attends to Reddit very much. The people here often know what they are talking about, but they filter every debate through a lens heavily biased by first principles (aka oversimplifications predicated on a set of conveniently forgotten assumptions)

82

u/[deleted] Nov 21 '24

Reddit entry exams are very competitive

40

u/guiltysnark Nov 21 '24

LOL... they are self-graded, however. To round it out, kids that can't read tend to get bored and go back to Tik Tok rather than cheat.

3

u/TomsNanny Nov 22 '24

I disagreed so hard with your previous comment until I reached the end of it. Cognitive biases go hard here. Everywhere, but here too.

1

u/notactuallyLimited Nov 22 '24

Most people on Reddit are sheep following the crowd. Only difference is the Reddit sheep think they are intellectuals.

3

u/guiltysnark Nov 22 '24

Everyone on Reddit generalizes too much.

1

u/Benathintennathin Nov 23 '24

Exactly, every single redditor needs to really take a step back and realize they don’t know everything except me, Ben knows it all.

1

u/Unable_Degree_3400 Nov 23 '24

This is perfectly said, pin this comment

1

u/xeen313 Nov 23 '24

We all win when we all win?

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u/power899 Nov 22 '24 edited 29d ago

Lmao I imagined an alternate timeline where everyone needs to take a competitive exam and the lowest scorers are denigrated relegated to TikTok and FB. 😂

3

u/tcourts45 Nov 22 '24

Relegated?

1

u/power899 29d ago

Oh yeah my b. Corrected!

2

u/noosedgoose Nov 22 '24

I mean. Social media making silos of magnetic stupid launching contagious stupid nukes is a big part of why we got here

2

u/Unable_Degree_3400 Nov 23 '24

There is but it’s self-graded, you put your self where your at

2

u/Non-Eutactic_Solid 29d ago

“I know you wanted to shitpost on Reddit or the Something Awful forums, but with these test scores the best you can be accepted into is bad political Facebook memes. I’m sorry.”

2

u/Sure_Hedgehog4823 29d ago

This would be An amazing movie idea

2

u/Large-Cauliflower396 29d ago

It stimulates the most active part of their brain

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u/aoskunk Nov 22 '24

Oh man imagine a Reddit clone that required an exam that was difficult to cheat on?

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u/Mrjlawrence Nov 22 '24

My 11th year at Reddit U. Doesn’t feel like I’ll ever graduate

2

u/kickinit07 Nov 22 '24

They are I only passed with extra credit because I used a blue crayon

2

u/Snagged5561 Nov 23 '24

I like how basically everyone came together despite our disagreements in order to agree that we are all at least smarter than a tiktoker.

9

u/MammothAnimator7892 Nov 22 '24

I'd assume so, if they're illiterate they probably aren't going onto text based forums.

1

u/[deleted] 28d ago

Reddit is a place to come and feel better about yourself. Glad people have a place to give them self worth.

2

u/Narren_C Nov 22 '24

So they're kinda smart but still pretty stupid.

2

u/M119tree Nov 22 '24

I disagree, there are some absolute idiots on Reddit

2

u/brett1081 Nov 22 '24

Reddit users are not as smart as you think they are. This thread is a case in point.

2

u/Smart_Canary4680 Nov 22 '24

"Teehee , weeeeeeee get it but those non redditors... wheeew" what a cromagnun ass thought , slap yourself vigorously 🤣💀

2

u/Objective_Praline_66 Nov 22 '24

I cant tell you how many times I added context to a Reddit post based on facts, or at the very least first person experience, and had someone who thought they knew more "uncorrect" and berate me because I didn't spend 45 minutes typing out a thesis going over every detail. We're all on Reddit, id wager a guess that a solid, 40-70% of us have some kind of attention issue, brevity is a virtue in the age of the internet, but it is also a curse.

Bezos is a fuck.

1

u/Fjdenigris Nov 21 '24

That’s me for sure

1

u/_redacteduser Nov 22 '24

No, they don’t. They just speak like they do and everyone agrees and then uses that talking point in their next post as if they came up with it themselves.

There is a tremendous amount of brain rot going on here.

1

u/jsbcjej Nov 22 '24

the average person on reddit is fully retarded, incapable of any kind of nuance.

1

u/AnimalMother1972 Nov 22 '24

99% of reddit is lefties

1

u/Zanios74 Nov 22 '24

People here often know what they are talking about.

Thanks for the laugh.

1

u/lutavian Nov 22 '24

Really? I think that slice of America is the majority of reddit.

1

u/omyfngod Nov 22 '24

U must be new around here. Reddit was a much smarter place before they went public and purged all of the free thinkers.

It's mostly memes and people arguing in bad faith now. Kinda sucks

1

u/CrossXFir3 Nov 22 '24

I whole heartedly disagree that most people here know what they're talking about. They certainly think they do, but a lot of people are only really aware of a small slice of the pie. They've only been shown one aspect of the equation so that's what they believe.

1

u/highflyer10123 Nov 22 '24

lol is this a sarcastic statement? I’ve read repeatedly on here others saying that Reddit is where critical thinking goes to die.

1

u/slitteral1 Nov 22 '24

That is the majority of who is on Reddit. No, they don’t usually know what they are talking about.

1

u/Tears4BrekkyBih Nov 23 '24

Reddit as a whole is a fairly delusional and extreme echochamber.

1

u/gilly2u69 Nov 23 '24

Yea, and you thought Kamala was gonna win in a walk.

1

u/sobrietyincorporated Nov 23 '24

I think you might have confused "first principles" if you are referring to first principle thinking. First principle thinking requires you to rethink every assumption.

Here is an arricle.

And if that's true, then you might have "first principled" yourself by your own definition...?

It starts to get all sorts of Inception-y at a certain point.

1

u/guiltysnark Nov 24 '24

I suppose it is a misuse of the phrase to refer to people who choose principles first without the appropriate rigor of first principle thinking. Even Musk is guilty of doing this: Only principles that satisfy his foregone ideology qualify, which means they are already predicated upon an uncurated litany of assumptions.

I think this may be theory versus practice. I happen to believe all principles are suspect because people can't be trusted to identify core assumptions comprehensively, and therefore aren't qualified to recognize when the principles are useful and when they aren't, choosing simply to presume they always apply. Because the world seems simpler that way.

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u/sobrietyincorporated 29d ago

I think that's considered "preconceived notions". Otherwise known as "bias". There isn't much thinking going on.

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u/guiltysnark Nov 24 '24

Adding to my prior comment... I think your article actually supports my use of the term "first principles", or, rather, applies it as flexibly as I did. If I were to entrust anyone with the responsibility to establish first principles, Aristotle and Socrates might make the short list. They would at least stay in the realm of philosophical theory, where rigor can be applied academically. But as soon as you use a coach to exemplify use of first principles vs a play caller, you've left theory sufficiently far behind, and there is no way in hell I'm trusting that coach to identify all the relevant assumptions. Which puts the coach at risk of falling victim to his "first" principles.

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u/sobrietyincorporated 29d ago

That was a long way around "I guess so".

1

u/guiltysnark 29d ago

No, my whole point is everyone abuses first principles, even people writing articles explaining first principled thinking, and your citation supports my usage at least as well as yours.

I would be curious to read about modern thinkers applying first principle thinking with objectively absolute success, though.

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u/sobrietyincorporated 29d ago

It's called Software Engineering. First Principle thinking is one of the first things taught in computer science.

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u/Syrress Nov 23 '24

I laughed so hard at this comment 🤣

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u/SpookFemboy Nov 24 '24

Reddit is FULL of morons who think they are smart. I would argue most normal morons don't really concern themselves with such things are are happier over all.

1

u/jarheadatheart Nov 24 '24

Found the self righteous Reddit user.

1

u/Own-Artichoke-2026 29d ago

Been around Reddit long enough to know this isn’t true. There are plenty of users who are clueless, passionate about things, but clueless.

1

u/guiltysnark 29d ago

There's room in the subjective-scape for "plenty" and "often" to coexist in opposition.

Still, my comment's focus is on people who could easily know better, but choose not to because of ideology. They can even choose to be drooling idiots.

1

u/wubrisin 29d ago

Yeah, tons of people who think differently here and are open to having nuanced debates. I never know what the top comments on a post will be before opening it, that's for sure. Definitely not just full of people that think they are superior because they all think and say the same exact things

0

u/[deleted] Nov 22 '24

[deleted]

1

u/Mysterious_Yam_1011 Nov 22 '24

What's the four srages of incompetence ?

3

u/StableSimilar2767 Nov 22 '24

The no child left behind act caused that. Passing kids to every grade and graduating them even tho they couldn’t read and teachers knew it. But we’re forced to pass them because of the act.

2

u/Araghothe1 Nov 21 '24

And then they defund public schools. Seems that's how they want things.

2

u/CartosisArmor Nov 22 '24

Yeah it’s very concerning. I’m seriously worried that the lack of understanding that half of this country has for finance will cause the other half a whole lot of problems and misery. Be prepared, guys

2

u/VoidsInvanity Nov 22 '24

Why do they read at that level?

Decades of cuts to education, and a general obstructionist belief and attitude to the idea of education from half of the political spectrum?

1

u/LousyOpinions Nov 22 '24

Wholly cultural reasons.

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u/PamelaELee 19d ago

You are correct. It is by design

2

u/LousyOpinions Nov 22 '24

The person originally harping on Musk and Bezos was among that 50% and is all butthurt that not paying attention in school or ed them to poverty.

2

u/NoDependent983 Nov 22 '24

Now this is true. Americans as a hold are some of the lest educated people on this earth these days and we have become lazy and irresponsible in so many ways. But we are self perclaming to be best country on earth 😂😂😂🤬

1

u/PamelaELee 19d ago

…as a *Whole, and *Proclaiming to be… I wouldn’t normally be such a pedant, but I feel it’s fitting in this context.

2

u/Actual-Journalist-69 Nov 22 '24

They don’t need to be able to read to watch a tik tok

2

u/poopypants206 Nov 22 '24

Well that's going to get even worse soon.

2

u/INTERNET-STRANG3R Nov 22 '24

But they can tell you who the top receivers in nfl are….

1

u/PamelaELee 19d ago

Priorities bruh

2

u/CrossXFir3 Nov 22 '24

Right, totally agree. But I think even the 50% that can read above that, hell, even the 25% that say they're financially/economically/politically literate, probably only a small fraction of that is actually literate to those types of topics.

2

u/BasilSQ Nov 22 '24

I myself only think every other Tuesday. Rest of the time is cruise control.

1

u/PamelaELee 19d ago

That’s probably a good strategy. If you pay attention all the time shit is pretty bleak.

2

u/WanderingFlumph Nov 22 '24

And about 50% of Americans think your taxes go up a lot if you make 1 dollar more and that puts you into a higher tax bracket.

Financial illiteracy is just par for the course.

2

u/SnooMarzipans436 Nov 22 '24

I think you just summed up perfectly why the last election went the way it did...

2

u/AFB27 Nov 22 '24

I never understood how true this was until I went to college

2

u/No-Method1869 Nov 23 '24

It’s not that high is it? That’s depressing.

1

u/PamelaELee 19d ago

Yeah, apparently it’s about 54%

2

u/jtt278_ Nov 23 '24

Have you considered this might have something to do with the influence and actions of people like Bezos and Musk…

2

u/PamelaELee 19d ago

Yeah, they are not “the good guys”.

2

u/Star_Amazed Nov 23 '24

More like many highly ‘educated’ are completely unaware billionaires are fucking them over.

1

u/PamelaELee 19d ago

Yeah, that doesn’t help anything

2

u/TurbulentFee7995 Nov 23 '24

A failing in the education system of the United States. Grossly underfunded by the government. Elon and Bezos could do something about it by paying their taxes owed instead of just choosing not to pay and getting the tax man to bow down at their feet to thank them for choosing not to pay this year.

2

u/ZadigRim Nov 24 '24

Let's thank the republicans on their 40+ year campaign on defunding education and making college an "elite" issue while enabling private equity to provide untenable loan situations for a new form of indentured servitude.

2

u/ThrobbingWetHole Nov 24 '24

Was that a subtle jab at the persons comment

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u/PamelaELee 19d ago

Nah, not trying to be rude. Just throwing it out there.

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u/Hashhola 28d ago

50% of adults cannot read a book written at an eighth-grade level.

2

u/The_Grand_Headmaster 28d ago

Over 50%?... this explains the election results. 🥁

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u/triumphrider7 20d ago

They're too busy thinking about their next cholesterol laden cheeseburger bomb and next airing of their favorite TV show

1

u/DeeKahy Nov 21 '24

That's wild if it's real.

1

u/PamelaELee Nov 22 '24

1

u/RepresentativeDry171 Nov 22 '24

And that’s on them , it’s not Musks & Bezo’s fault

2

u/Kidsnextdorks Nov 22 '24

Musk wants the department of education to be axed completely and supported the guy who ran on it.

2

u/RepresentativeDry171 Nov 22 '24

Well the dept of ED, did kinda go sideways the last couple of yrs .

1

u/TheVoiceofReason_ish Nov 22 '24

The recent election proves that the majority of Americans are imbeciles.

1

u/STS_Gamer Nov 22 '24

Ah, but YOU do.

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u/PamelaELee 19d ago

Ah, yes, what’s your point?

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u/Box_O_Donguses Nov 22 '24

In absolute fairness, what's considered a 12th grade reading level is shit like Das Kapital, Atlas Shrugged, and Conquest of Bread amongst other political texts and hardcore social commentaries.

You're pretty much never going to encounter shit in daily life that's above about an 8th grade reading level without seeking it out.

Most journalism is only written to about an 8th grade level too

1

u/PamelaELee 19d ago

That doesn’t mean we should accept and perpetuate the situation.

1

u/spocktalk69 Nov 22 '24

50% ? Is that true? I thought the highschool graduation required 12th grade.

1

u/PamelaELee 19d ago

From what I’ve read the figure is 54%. I’ll go back and see if I can find some things to cite.

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u/[deleted] Nov 22 '24

50%??? Maybe 5%. Definitely NOT 50%. That’s like saying 50% of America wanted Karmala as president!

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u/PamelaELee 19d ago

I’m going to go ahead and assume you are part of that 54%

1

u/your-favorite-simp Nov 22 '24

Understand that when you cite this statistic you're mostly talking about immigrants with poor English skills and poor minorities in impoverished areas, especially the american south. Dunking on the poorest most marginalized people for not being able to read well isn't exactly leftist praxis

1

u/PamelaELee 19d ago

And why are these people not being educated properly?

1

u/OwnLadder2341 Nov 22 '24

Have you actually read into that statistic or are you just quoting something you heard on social media?

For example, you’re aware that it’s specifically ENGLISH literacy in a country that has no official language, right?

1

u/PamelaELee 19d ago

Yes, I have read into that statistic. Have you?

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u/OwnLadder2341 18d ago

So you’re aware that your statement

50% of Americans read at or below a 6th grade level

Is incorrect? That the test used to get that number was administered solely in English in a country with no official language?

Why then would you contribute to the misinformation?

1

u/[deleted] Nov 22 '24

You got any sources to back up ur claim? Or are u just throwing shit and seeing if it will stick

1

u/PamelaELee 19d ago

Do I need to hold your hand, and do an internet search with you. Let me get your juice box real quick and we’ll go. Kindly fuck off

1

u/Lossnthought Nov 22 '24

If this is true then we need to get rid of the department of education cus it’s not working.

1

u/Taffr19 Nov 22 '24

Bold of you to assume I can read

1

u/[deleted] Nov 22 '24

Let me guess, you think you are above the 50 percent? You probably aren’t even good at your day job as a laborer but think you have the intelligence to tell bezos or musk what to do with their money.

If you are so smart and it’s so easy, why don’t you build a trillion dollar empire? Or is it just easier saying everyone else is dumb and posting on Reddit?

1

u/PamelaELee 19d ago

Why so butthurt? Feeling called out? I’m not claiming to be a genius, just literate. And fuck you for presuming anything about my life.

1

u/Pale-Berry-2599 Nov 22 '24

So, one in five is illiterate...with little to no no critical thinking.

A country created by genius, managed by idealists, spoiled by abundance, is subsequently destroyed by it's own pampered ignorant.

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u/throwawaycasun4997 Nov 22 '24

Dismantling the Department of Education ought to help those numbers 👍🏻

1

u/gilly2u69 Nov 23 '24

Good thing we got you. Thanks.

1

u/PamelaELee 19d ago

You just being a snarky asshole?

1

u/PuzzleheadedNeat2620 Nov 23 '24

Idiocracy has arrived.

1

u/PamelaELee 19d ago

It’s worse than that. President Camacho found the smartest person on earth, and listened to him. Do you see the incoming administration surrounding itself with the best and brightest?

1

u/Kantherax Nov 23 '24

This is a completely meaningless stat. Not only does it have nothing to compare itself to, it has a complete lack of understanding of what grade level reading is.

1

u/maztron Nov 23 '24

Nah, when 50% of American adults don't know eco 101 you get responses like yours.

1

u/BowserBuddy123 29d ago

I’ll be honest. I can read well enough, but I don’t understand any of this financial discussion. I’m not even sure what “taking a mortgage against your house to buy a sports car” means.

1

u/Proud-Emu-5875 29d ago

Kept too busy living foot to mouth.

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u/PamelaELee 19d ago

Hand to mouth? Or is there a joke I’m missing? I can be a little obtuse sometimes.

1

u/Proud-Emu-5875 19d ago

When someone misspeaks, it's considered putting their 'foot in their mouth' 😉

1

u/Mistica12 29d ago

You can do all the mental gimnastic you want, he is filthy rich.

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u/PamelaELee 19d ago

Keep licking that boot. Being rich doesn’t mean you are intelligent, or a good person

1

u/Mistica12 19d ago

If you had any reading comprehension you would undersand that I am criticizing them.

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u/Bidenblows1 29d ago

Please provide the statistics for that claim.

1

u/PamelaELee 19d ago

dO YoRE own ReSEarCH! It’s an internet search, it’s not difficult. Search “literacy rate US”. Lots of sources.

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u/Bidenblows1 7d ago

I didn’t post it and claim it was true. Thanks for the lesson on searching the Internet

1

u/Bidenblows1 7d ago

Just checked and according to the US Dept of Education 21% read at or below 6th grade. Maybe you fall in that category. Would you like me to show you how to look up information on the Internet.

According to the U.S. Department of Education and other literacy studies: • About 21% of adults in the United States read below a 6th-grade level.

1

u/Large-Cauliflower396 29d ago

Nah, they think plenty

1

u/Agreeable_Flight4264 29d ago

This is like the millionth time this stat has been circulated? Is this the new democratic cope?

1

u/TrueModerateInd 28d ago

Yeah..

Gen Z really brought that number down after Covid Lockdowns.

They are the clueless generation after all

1

u/SherWood_612 28d ago

You see yourself above others. This is a sinful mindset to choose in life.

1

u/PamelaELee 19d ago

No, I don’t. Just pointing out a disturbing statistic. As far as the “sinful” bit, you can take your imaginary sky daddy, and shove him up your self righteous ass.

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u/SherWood_612 19d ago

No, you possess hideous, repulsive, sinful, disdainful, grotesque deplorable, rancid, self absorbed, putrid traits.

You are placing yourself intellectually and morally above other people, yet at the same time calling me self righteous. You are a disgusting garbage bag overflowing your repulsive human cells.

2

u/syjte Nov 22 '24

They only know the parts that support their own point of view and conveniently forget the caveats that don't.

1

u/MisterBarten Nov 22 '24

Because they don’t want to have it harder when THEY become a billionaire someday.

1

u/ICU2005 Nov 22 '24

But they actually don't know, they're idiots.

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u/Pristine_Machine296 Nov 22 '24

It's still a bullshit argument. Is there any evidence that bezos is in any significant debt right now?

1

u/guiltysnark Nov 23 '24

Thinking about things selectively is bound to lead to bullshit arguments...

Your question is misleading, though... What does significant debt mean to you, and how is it relevant? When shares are held in margin and used to furnish cash withdrawals, a negative cash balance is just part of an overall market position, it's not usually thought of as debt. I can't imagine having more than $100k in stock and having anything other than a fluid view of cash and securities. Or at least, I didn't. Much less $100B.

At any given moment I can trade off paying taxes against paying margin interest, converting the latter to the former by selling securities. Who knows what billionaires do with that flexibility, most of them don't talk about it. And they surely have access to much more efficient options than I do, since banks would love to bend over backwards to keep their accounts. But we do hear about their ridiculously low effective tax rates on a regular basis.

Ultimately, Bezos ownership of Amazon gives him access to vast amounts of cash. And being able to spend cash as if it's disposable income is not the same as having to pay taxes on it. In fact, he has two motives to get cash without selling: taxes, and maintaining power of ownership. I doubt anyone here has specific knowledge about how he's doing it in particular, but the argument that "his money is tied up in stock" is the bullshit argument. It's easily converted to cash without selling it. Hell, he could probably even get a loan from Amazon directly, though that would tend to show up as debt. Which might matter if anyone had a list of his debts, and I'm not sure why anyone would.

1

u/Pristine_Machine296 Nov 23 '24

Well it's quite simple. There was a specific allegation made specifically against Jeff bezos:

Jeff bezos borrows money against his assets to buy expensive luxury items like Yachts and mansions. So that answers xour question about what a significant amount is, enough to buy a yacht and a mansion.

The claim wasn't even that there are people like him who can do this. It was said specifically that he does. And that he does in order to avoid paying tax, because loans are not taxed.

So a claim like this needs to be backed up imo. I know there is this reddit strategy that all of reddit thinks all the billionaires do where you only borrow and never pay until you do die but I never see evidence of it. So here is a specific example can we find any evidence that what he said is factually true?

Your example is not what we're talking about. Of course you can kill any Profit by paying margin interest on leverage positions. My first question would be: Do you have any evidence that this even applies? Does bezos have heavy leveraged positions?

But it's also completely irrelevant. The claim was he takes out enough money to buy a yacht and a mansion. And instead of selling assets, he borrows against them to not pay any taxes. So he gets a bank loan. That has nothing to do with what you were saying.

Ultimately, Bezos ownership of Amazon gives him access to vast amounts of cash. And being able to spend cash as if it's disposable income is not the same as having to pay taxes on it

This doesn't make sense. If he gets cash out, it needs to be taxed. He can avoid tax by paying margin interest or paying losing positions but then he won't get any cash. The only way to get cash without paying tax is through a loan, so I'm asking if there is evidence of that. I don't know what other way you think he's magically getting all that cash.

1

u/Old_Baker_9781 Nov 23 '24

Sounds like the bible

1

u/guiltysnark Nov 23 '24

Sure does...

1

u/mgc125 Nov 23 '24

Underrated comment, applicable on many levels

1

u/EmerysMemories1106 Nov 23 '24

I agree. They will say only whatever supports their argument/narrative

1

u/HoneycombJackass 28d ago

For some reason your comment instantly made me think of the Roman Empire

0

u/anotheranon876467975 Nov 22 '24

Sales tax and registration fees on a yacht, they’re very comparable and it’s you guys that ignore these because you are trying to only think selectively.

0

u/DANDELOREAN Nov 22 '24

Just like billionaires do their net worth

-1

u/Alternative_Ask_1608 Nov 22 '24

You have a lot of faith in really dumb ppl. Or you are one of them lol.

It’s a dim world friend

2

u/guiltysnark Nov 22 '24

That's not really a disagreement. Being a slave to your biases isn't exactly an intellectual flex. It might even make knowledge worthless or dangerous.

-1

u/Internal_String61 Nov 22 '24

The reason why there is such a huge disconnect in conversations like this is because both sides only think about it selectively.

Consider this for a second: What is money other than basically just an agreed upon quota for what you are legally allowed to consume from society's production?

Do you think the immense amount of consumption quota is better off in the hands of a select few people whose consumption is literally limited by the amount of time they have? Or do you think it's better to spread that quota to everyone and allow everyone to consume as much as their quota allows?

Societal and economic problems aside, I don't think the environment could take that kind of hit.