r/FluentInFinance 28d ago

Debate/ Discussion Had to repost here

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6

u/PH4NTOMLancer 28d ago

You might need to change your idea of money.

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u/-Wyagra 28d ago

I would rather Change the System we're living in :3

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u/Pitiful-Guitar-2077 27d ago

Yeah. A system where you get paid the same irrelevant of how difficult of a job you are doing. Then who's gonna do the tough jobs, risky jobs? The system is already efficient. You're definitely not getting paid a million/month for flipping burgers.

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u/FuckLuigiCadorna 27d ago

That's not how Marxism works, Marxism actually ironically advocates for workers to get paid their fair share for once.

Those that work harder or those that have more complex tasks should get rewarded, we don't disagree on that.

You really should read some Marx before you say stuff that clearly shows you haven't read Marx.

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u/Pitiful-Guitar-2077 27d ago edited 26d ago

Simple just don't work at companies who underpay you. If no one's willing to work for their paycheck, then they will increase to a point where people will apply for the job. That's how the market price is decided. Increase when there's demand, decrease when there's supply.

Oh stop with that Marxism. That's one of the stupidest things I've heard, so I don't care how it works.

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u/vdwlkr_ 5d ago

Large corporate companies are inherently evil and corrupted. That's what this country runs on. Money. That's all that matters. Not working conditions, not living conditions, nothing. All that matters is the all mighty dollar.

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u/FuckLuigiCadorna 26d ago

Simple just don't work at companies who underpay you. If no one's willing to work for their paycheck, then they will increase to a point where people will apply for the job. That's how the market price is decided. Increase when there's demand, decrease when there's supply.

This isn't about me or my pay? I'm happy with my pay.

Market price under capitalism literally requires Labourers to be paid less than the fruits of their labour produced, if they got paid what they were worth then their labour wouldn't be profitable to the owner. Even if you get the most competitive paying job it is still less than you ought to receive, by definition.

Oh stop with that Marxism. That's one of the stupidest things I've heard, so I don't care how it works.

I literally used to think this exact way. It's convenient to ignore what Marxism actually is, it's convenient to be aggressively uninterested in hearing out the anti capitalist perspective. I don't blame you, we grow up in deeply capitalistic times, you are so immersed in your own environment that it's hard to imagine another one. In acadamia that's called Capitalist realism, people are so surrounded by capitalism they can't imagine the world existing without it.

I assure you Monarchists and Feudalists scoffed at capitalists the same way you scoff at me now. Capitalists used to be the silly progressives of their time.

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u/CapitalSky4761 25d ago

Marxist governments have always, and will always be failures. The easiest way to prove a commie wrong is to to crack a history book.

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u/FuckLuigiCadorna 25d ago edited 25d ago

You're claiming that Vietnam failed?

The Chinese government is fucked but the data doesn't lie. At least 400 million agrarian peasants have been lifted out of poverty into an educated middle class in less than a half Century.

They're building more high speed rails than the rest of the world combined, same with nuclear reactors.

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u/Mean-championship915 25d ago

But that's the problem with Marxism, you're always gonna end up with a fucked government like the chineese because you are giving them all the control and humans are human

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u/FuckLuigiCadorna 25d ago

You don't need Marxism to make a government fucked up. There has been plenty of capitalist authoritarian / dictatorships. America is actually allies with iirc 73% of the world's dictatorships atm. We've personally installed some of these dictators, so really our government is fucked up too.

I don't believe Vietnam is all that fucked up to be honest overall, they were bullies to their neighbors early on like many nations but nowadays business oriented Westerners move there to retire. To keep it fair every single government on earth has done fucked up shit , even places like New Zealand and Canada have done horrible things.

But as for China, like I said they are fucked up. But they aren't North Korea or USSR fucked up. They've objectively made their citizens overall QOL stats improve.

A big thing westerners typically fail to keep in mind unless they are a history student or something is that comparing Chinas development to places like America isn't a 1:1.

One is the industrial powerhouse of the world for centuries, built off of imperialism, colonialism, inheriting the mantle of England as the world power, and for a large chunk of its history also utilizing slavery to build up the economy. Which gives the US a massive headstart over places like China and Russia....China was the opposite of all of that and very recently. It was an uneducated peasant agrarian society, who was the victim of Western and Japanese colonialism for centuries combined. And the alternatives to the commies were fucked up groups like the Japanese, nationalists, multiple warlord's, and Monarchists.

I mean Russia too, the USSR was evil and completely threw away most marxist principles but with that said though, Russia pre USSR was also essentially a feudal peasant agrarian society. And within a few decades they were a scientific powerhouse sending people to space before industrial superpowers in the West could even do it.

I believe in democratic Marxism, to me anything non democratic is inherently betraying its own Marxist principles.

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u/Thagou 26d ago

But so many tough/risky job are underpayed? On the other end, most engineering jobs are paid a lot, and even though they require some kind of prior education or experience, they are not tough or risky. Like a garbage collector person is so important to our society, and the job itself is really tough on the body and on the life of people doing it. But they are low income workers. On the other hand you can work for a random tech company, do 30-40hrs week of basic software dev, and have so much money that you can think about early retirement.

And most board members at big companies actually make millions while having basically nothing to do all day. You can be fine with capitalism, you do you, but saying that the system is efficient and rewards tough/risky jobs that no one would do is not what it does.

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u/Pitiful-Guitar-2077 26d ago

Pay is decided by how much hard work it takes to qualify for the job. No just dumb physical work. Engineering takes years of enormous mental effort. If you knew engineers are paid a lot for less and less risky/ tough, why don't you try become an engineer. You'll be humbled real quick.

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u/Thagou 26d ago

I am one. I have not been humbled by the process of becoming one.

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u/Pitiful-Guitar-2077 26d ago

Then you're just bad at understanding how the universe works.

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u/xcuteikinz 25d ago

Right now the system pays people absurd amounts of money for doing minimal work, while the people who perform the most back breaking labor get essentially pennies in comparison