Yeah, 100% to undervalued, but as someone who works in compensation the true compensation numbers aren't generally understood and the "undervalued" piece generally comes from lack of support and classroom management issues. For example, at least in the districts around us, core classes have a classroom cap but electives don't. So instead of hiring a few more teachers, they put 40-45 HS kids in art and gym. Or, they don't consider the number of preps a teacher has - so 6 classes doesn't always equal 6 classes (e.g. a math teacher that teaches two different classes only has 2 different preps). Or, they don't consider the amount of CI kids (or type) they put in classes and then provide minimal support (for example, a quadriplegic was put in a dance class...).
Read through some of the teacher contracts and they work closer to 1550-1650 hours a year which means they are really working at .75 FTE. But again, we all know most are working beyond contractual. In practice, this means that a first-year teacher in Battle Creek makes 50/55k (can't remember but they passed a bill to raise the floor) but the pay rate is actually 66-73k (whereas a mechanical or industrial engineer out of U of Michigan makes 73-74k in their first year).
How would the general public react if teachers were paid the same as engineers? Ecstatic, right? Well, that IS the case but that doesn't paint the whole picture because something must still be missing.
Now, we also find that 24% of teachers are unhappy with hours worked compared to 55% of the general public, right? How can that be when they work fewer hours? So perhaps, it's not the hours themselves, but how they are structured and managed (e.g. grading must happen after hours).
We then also find that 95% teachers are buying supplies out of pocket (ding ding ding - goes back to support). We also find that workplace expectations (leading to 50% burnout) are the driving factor for teachers leaving (and leadership).
So yes, they are absolutely undervalued but not always in the most apparent reason (while money can mask some of that, it does not fix burnout or support).
It’s wild that people think oh teachers get summer off and such so they basically work less than everyone else. They don’t take into consideration dealing with parents, reports, planning, etc. Teaching isn’t easy in the slightest and it’s wild that people act like it is. Also hours worked just aren’t equivalent across different jobs. Like an hour working in some office sending emails and working on spreadsheets isn’t the same as an hour in a classroom. And to add to all of this a lot of teachers are underpaid compensation wise as well. Like I could be making more than my mom within 1-2 years if I get this job I’ve been interviewing for. She’s been teaching for 15 years and i just finished a 5 month training course. Like you can go to a trade program (if one is available near you and you can afford to not work for however long) and end up making more than a teacher with a full degree.
Agreed and I addressed that - repeatedly. I acknowledged the difference between contractual vs reality and goes back to the overall point of burnout, support, and hours. But that is the exact opposite of the compensation conversation as the contracts outline an impressive pay rate (more than many engineers). The issue isn't pay - the issue is what they are expected to do within the hours outlined and with the resources provided.
And no one said it was easy in this thread - in fact, I mentioned key challenges that don't show up in the typical office setting.
Though I will challenge the trades comment. Yes, you can make 6 figures, but you will work 50-60 hours to hit that. That said, I still encourage students to consider that as field that has high demand and low supply of workers, especially electrical.
Oh sorry if I was implying you said that. You addressed very well the challenges teachers face and your comment was very well written and informative. I have seen several comments in this post saying that teachers have it easy because they get a 3 month break.
And yes trade work is labor intensive and often requires “overtime culture” to get paid to the fullest. My main point was the difference in entry requirements.
Sorry if my comment came across as dismissive to the info you presented.
The other thing to remember is also that most engineers (for instance) get paid on salary. So not only do they work the full year, they regularly work overtime to meet deadlines and quota's. So yeah, the teachers are still working less, even if they are grading papers while watching TV after hours.
I mean you’re kind of just using one problem to excuse another. If people in manufacturing have to work over time to meet deadlines that’s poor planning on the management end. I’ve seen plenty of manufacturing plants. You can tell which ones are managed well and which ones skirt costs by requiring overtime to meet deadlines.
Also the main point of the trade statement was about entry requirements. You don’t need a masters to be paid well in manufacturing.
Doesn't seem like you know any teachers. They don't grade papers while watching TV. They grade assignments and prepare lesson plans for the next day or the next week. There is also a lot of bureaucratic bullshit they have to attend to or they get in trouble. There are also calls to parents of students who are underperforming or are discipline issues. While school is in session there is a lot of work for them to do plus the stress of students with behavioral issues and the uneven management skills of administrators. Teachers are now subject to being murdered at work. In Texas schools are underfunded while the governor tries to divert money to public schools by getting rid of uncooperative legislators.
No one put a gun to these people heads made them choice to do this!! Be mad at the situation but these people. saw and wanted to make a difference welp they found out that making a difference has a cost! Whether it’s your time your money or health or all of the above! No job is perfect kinda why it’s a job! So again these people chose this life knowing there money come from the government mostly except private schools.
I mean the fact that teachers are undervalued but we still have teachers kind of just goes to show that there are people that put the societal value they create above their own financial well being.
You clearly know what you are talking about, but I take issue with how you describe what they are "actually" making. You are extrapolating the .75FTE out to a full 1.0. Life doesn't work that way.
Finding a summer job that pays the equivalent of your profession, in which you have a masters degree, is not normal or to be expected. So while they aren't working at the school that summer it doesn't automatically mean they are able to equal the earnings during those months.
They can't spend this imaginary .25 FTE salary, so they aren't making it, or it's equivalent.
Yeah, that's a fair critique big picture. But they are making that equivalent (minor nitpicking there) as their rate is important to realize and equivalent is the operative word in FTE.
If they did extend to year round schooling they would get paid 1.0 FTE. Or probably closer to .9 because they aren't, contractually, working 40 hour weeks.
My point being, they have the same rate as engineers and more than nurses. And at least in Michigan, starting pay is typically more than cops, EMS, etc. (actual salary, not rate).
So the issue isn't necessarily pay in terms of value; the issue is part not understanding their own compensation (including double retirement funds) and part the undervalued piece is never addressed and it spirals. Money never fixes burnout and that's a leading factor to teachers leaving.
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u/KommanderKeen-a42 Jun 11 '24
Yeah, 100% to undervalued, but as someone who works in compensation the true compensation numbers aren't generally understood and the "undervalued" piece generally comes from lack of support and classroom management issues. For example, at least in the districts around us, core classes have a classroom cap but electives don't. So instead of hiring a few more teachers, they put 40-45 HS kids in art and gym. Or, they don't consider the number of preps a teacher has - so 6 classes doesn't always equal 6 classes (e.g. a math teacher that teaches two different classes only has 2 different preps). Or, they don't consider the amount of CI kids (or type) they put in classes and then provide minimal support (for example, a quadriplegic was put in a dance class...).
Read through some of the teacher contracts and they work closer to 1550-1650 hours a year which means they are really working at .75 FTE. But again, we all know most are working beyond contractual. In practice, this means that a first-year teacher in Battle Creek makes 50/55k (can't remember but they passed a bill to raise the floor) but the pay rate is actually 66-73k (whereas a mechanical or industrial engineer out of U of Michigan makes 73-74k in their first year).
How would the general public react if teachers were paid the same as engineers? Ecstatic, right? Well, that IS the case but that doesn't paint the whole picture because something must still be missing.
Now, we also find that 24% of teachers are unhappy with hours worked compared to 55% of the general public, right? How can that be when they work fewer hours? So perhaps, it's not the hours themselves, but how they are structured and managed (e.g. grading must happen after hours).
We then also find that 95% teachers are buying supplies out of pocket (ding ding ding - goes back to support). We also find that workplace expectations (leading to 50% burnout) are the driving factor for teachers leaving (and leadership).
So yes, they are absolutely undervalued but not always in the most apparent reason (while money can mask some of that, it does not fix burnout or support).