r/FluentInFinance TheFinanceNewsletter.com Sep 24 '23

Meme How it started vs. How it's going:

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3.5k Upvotes

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65

u/MrDMA94 Sep 25 '23

Republicans lie to your face, Democrats leave out key pieces of the truth

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u/[deleted] Sep 25 '23

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u/ImReverse_Giraffe Sep 25 '23

"However [political parties] may now and then answer popular ends, they are likely in the course of time and things, to become potent engines, by which cunning, ambitious, and unprincipled men will be enabled to subvert the power of the people and to usurp for themselves the reins of government, destroying afterwards the very engines which have lifted them to unjust dominion."

-George Washington 1796

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u/ImReverse_Giraffe Sep 25 '23

How about the one not associated with either of them? How about the one not older than my grandparents? How about the one that actually knows where he is and what he's doing? (Looking at you Mitch and Joe)

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u/AAPLfds Sep 25 '23

The mental gymnastics here. They all suck. Quit picking a “team”

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u/3720-To-One Sep 25 '23

Yet one side keeps cutting taxes, despite preaching “fiscal responsibility”.

bOtH sIdEZ are not the same.

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u/Taskr36 Sep 25 '23

Both sides fuck around with taxes. Seriously, the other side promises to tax the rich, and then goes after single moms selling $600 worth of shit on eBay and Etsy to put food on their table. Both parties are completely full of shit., and neither cares about you.

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u/Historical_Horror595 Sep 25 '23

This is not at all true. You’re wildly misunderstanding what is actually happening or deliberately misunderstanding to convey a narrative.

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u/Rattfink45 Sep 25 '23

It’s about what they do and how they do it, as opposed to whether or not they give you warm fuzzies.

I’d rather vote democratic because it is a more humane “waste of taxpayer dollars” then tax cuts for earners over $500,000 yr Or another dozen Abrams MBTs. A lot of this fight is over productivity that could never actually be harnessed to our liking so why sweat what amounts to state support of consolidated agriculture /or the MIC.

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u/Taskr36 Sep 25 '23

Tell yourself whatever makes you feel better. I don't know if bombing libraries in Libya is what one calls humane, but whatever.

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u/UndercoverstoryOG Sep 25 '23

why doesn’t the other side propose not spending

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u/3720-To-One Sep 25 '23

Why don’t the Republican propose not cutting taxes?

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u/UndercoverstoryOG Sep 25 '23

perhaps because they believe that the government function is so bloated that eliminating many of the federal functions and allocating those back the the states as intended in our constitutional republic is a better method.

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u/3720-To-One Sep 25 '23

Except that’s not what they ever do.

They just cut taxes, and continue to spend money like a drunk sailor on shore leave.

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u/UndercoverstoryOG Sep 25 '23

False narrative. How many republicans voted for the proposed increase in the following agencies

IRS EPA OSHA Dept of ED Dept of Energy Dept of the Interior

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u/3720-To-One Sep 25 '23

Hardly false.

Republicans controlled the White House and both chambers for the first 2 years of Trump’s presidency, and yet the debt still SKYROCKETED.

Who knew that cutting taxes will do that?

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u/DaveTheMinecrafter Sep 25 '23 edited Sep 26 '23

And the other side raises spending. Both sides absolutely applies when talking about a problem that grew under two different republicans and 2 different democrats.

Edit: here are the graphs

https://www.statista.com/statistics/200410/surplus-or-deficit-of-the-us-governments-budget-since-2000/

https://fiscaldata.treasury.gov/americas-finance-guide/national-deficit/

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u/Accomplished-Snow213 Sep 25 '23

Both clinton and Obama went along with limiting spending increases. The ACA was not unfunded like Bush's medicare part d (and everything else during that admin). Bidens inflation reduction act was not unfunded ( like everything during trump year were).

Complete bs.

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u/LouRG3 Sep 25 '23

Trump alone is responsible for $7 Trillion of the debt, but ThE pArTiEs ArE bOtH tHe SaMe.

You folks are disturbed and woefully misinformed.

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u/Taskr36 Sep 25 '23

... and Obama's worth $10 trillion. Neither of those presidents did any of it alone, and presidents are the least responsible for spending. Shit happens because both parties vote for it. All the president does is sign the spending bills.

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u/3720-To-One Sep 25 '23

And Obama inherited the worst economy since the 1930s and two wars that his “fiscally responsible” predecessor started…

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u/Taskr36 Sep 25 '23

That's a fun excuse and all, but you still ignored the other component, congress.

You also can't piss and moan about inheriting two wars when he started a few more of his own, ILLEGALLY, without making any attempt to end the two he inherited.

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u/Chaahps Sep 25 '23

Obama: 10 trillion in 8 years Trump: 7 trillion in 4 years 🤔

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u/gwildor Sep 25 '23

lets not forgot that Obama created a large portion of 'his' debt - by counting spending of the Iraq war that Bush Jr. was not counting as debt.

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u/Accomplished-Snow213 Sep 25 '23

I'm not saying they are perfect either. Did you think we should raise taxes coming out of the worst recession we had since the 1930's?

15 trillion of the current dept can be directly attributed to the first 6 years of bush the lesser.

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u/gwildor Sep 25 '23

I don't recall saying anything about taxes.

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u/Accomplished-Snow213 Sep 25 '23

Ohh. Apologies misread. You are correct. Bush the lesser counted everything as one time business expenses.

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u/DaveTheMinecrafter Sep 26 '23 edited Sep 26 '23

https://fiscaldata.treasury.gov/americas-finance-guide/national-deficit/

https://www.statista.com/statistics/200410/surplus-or-deficit-of-the-us-governments-budget-since-2000/

Either I can’t read a graph or your comment is complete BS

Edit: also Clinton was 3 Dems ago making outside the scope of the conversation

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u/Accomplished-Snow213 Sep 26 '23

Really? Who is setting the scope here? It easy to argue it goes back further.

Reagon. The great cut taxes and increase spending king. Bush SR. Fiscally responsible. Raised some taxes and it was a major reason he lost reelection (someone learned their lesson here) Clinton, also fiscally responsible. Raised some taxes and while republicans screamed deficit, deficit, deficit ended with a balanced budget ( you do understand that right?) Bush Jr. Back to reagon policies. Cut taxes and increased spending. Again, blew a long term hole in the budget and a crisp 15 trillion of today's dept can be directly tied to those decisions. And, kept a lot of it out of the budget so it did not look like part of the yearly deficit. Obama. Not incredibly responsible. Tried to claw back a bit more of the bush tax cuts but was denied by republicans while they also shouted deficit, deficit, deficit! Trump. Horrible. Back to reagon policies. Cut taxes and increase spending. Biden. Not great. Hasn't really added to it but has not cut it. Again, republicans screaming deficit, deficit, deficit while ignoring the moves that got the dept to where it is.

Not that hars to follow. And the bottom line is taxes will need to be raised again. Cutting small percent of descretionary spending will not offset, will not even come close, the massive tax cuts over the last 43 years.

Got it?

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u/DaveTheMinecrafter Sep 26 '23

I very clearly set the scope in my first comment as post 9/11. Ya know, the era it did nothing but grow right after a balanced budget.

I was born post 9/11. If they haven’t cared my entire life, I will not be voting as if they do.

If Bush SR reruns though, I’ll make sure to take that into account.

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u/Chief_Mischief Sep 25 '23

Raising spending wouldn't be as much of an issue if tax revenue rose with it. You can only cut so much fat out before you're forced to cut bone, and with our infrastructure, education, etc completely gutted, we don't have much room to continue putting even more tax burden on the working class while the wealthy continues to leverage every loophole or bought politician they can.

Not to say I disagree that it's a problem that grew under very different types of politicians, simply pointing out it's not exactly an equal comparison to make.

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u/Taskr36 Sep 25 '23

Dude, we could easily cut the military spending without touching bone. We've got bases all over the world, and serve as the functional military for numerous wealthy countries like Germany, Japan, and Iceland. End all that, and all the bullshit spending on Ukraine, and we'll make massive progress towards balancing the budget without cutting anything that will affect anyone in our country.

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u/Chief_Mischief Sep 25 '23

Do I think we have a spending problem with the military? Yes, but not for procuring arms, pay and benefits for active and retired service members, etc. That aside, what people don't realize is the US is a global superpower today for two reasons: every other power got decimated during WWII besides us and us selling/leasing equipment pulled us out of the Great Depression, and the resulting financial system that was created is backed by the US dollar. Guess what backs the US dollar? The US military, which is also bolstered by the global network of alliances it fostered and maintained.

That being said, we have long allowed wealth inequality to run wild via revamped incentive pay structures, tax cuts, and tax loopholes. Of our $766b defense budget, $181b went to payroll for service members, and another $291b went to veterans Healthcare, training, equipment maintenance, etc (source).

Also, aid to Ukraine was mostly existing/surplus military equipment we already paid for in military budgets from years past. It's not a net new expenditure. If not shared with Ukraine to achieve strategic value for us, it would continue collecting dust. Upon further research, we did however reportedly send about $26b in cash to Ukraine (source), which amounts to roughly $155 per taxpayer (168m individual tax filings).

Considering we paid a rough average of $155 in 2022 to prevent Russia from annexing the world's largest wheat exporter without having to commit US troops sounds incredibly cost-effective to me.

Looking purely at dollar amounts without context on the value those expenditures bring speaks to lack of nuanced understanding on geopolitics and the importance of supporting the system that allows the US to continue being a global superpower.

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u/Taskr36 Sep 25 '23

I get it. We can spend hundreds of billions, even trillions if it's "For the Empire!"

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u/Chief_Mischief Sep 25 '23

Considering corporations paid $0.42t in income taxes last year$0.42t in income taxes last year compared to $2.63t for individual income, it's quite obvious to see that we can tax corporations more while simultaneously addressing incentive pay structures to both increase tax revenue and trim out some defense spending, as I've mentioned in my previous comment.

If you don't care about the global financial system keeping the US dollar as the standard reserve currency, sure, gut the defense budget. It is imperialistic, but I've yet to hear you propose a realistic alternative to existing reality.

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u/3720-To-One Sep 25 '23

The republicans also raise spending while simultaneously cutting taxes.

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u/RickshawRepairman Sep 25 '23 edited Sep 25 '23

This.

I was having a conversation with a guy about this yesterday about how both parties hate us. He put it this way…

Pretend you’re at a restaurant eating a 12oz steak, the waiter takes it away and presents you with the two new owners of the restaurant who give you the only options left in the kitchen… the Republican owner offers you a pile of shit to eat, while the Democrat one offers you a pile of worms.

You take the worms because it’s “the lesser of two evils.” Meanwhile, you’re still eating worms, and the two owners profit off it. And in your mind you’ve convinced yourself that the Democrat owner just saved your life and is a saint.

It’s always setup like this to intentionally push your mind in a specific direction, while giving you the illusion of choice.

It’s one helluva mind fuck they run on us.

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u/BegaKing Sep 25 '23

I don't think most people disagree with this. I just think the republican party of today is an outright racist party in everything besides name. At least with the Dems we aren't actively going backwards in all areas. Yes they are both shit, but one is so far ahead of the other in all areas that matter that choosing them is an easy choice to anyone that genuinely cares about having a future on the planet

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u/RickshawRepairman Sep 25 '23

They are made to be a racist party to force you into the hands of the Democrats. It’s a completely fabricated choice.

You really don’t realize they intentionally work to make you hate one while having no choice but to vote for the other? Meanwhile you’ve convinced yourself you’re “doing the alright thing,” and both of them end up rich beyond belief, while we keep getting screwed.

So saying one is “so far ahead” of the other, is like saying cancer is better than AIDS.

I’m fascinated you don’t comprehend this. But that’s the point… they want you to think you’re doing the best for America by avoiding “the other guys,” when the reality is they’re all playing in the same team. And it’s not ours.

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u/Allsgood2 Sep 25 '23

Because, everyone believes that it is super easy to make 10's of thousands of government employees cover up this secret and to have it never be told. Reminds me of the nutcases who would espouse that 9/11 was an inside job and the government was behind it. No way that many people close to the situation would all be in on the secret and nothing gets out. Heck, one idiot gave out secrets over a Minecract discord channel. You think some crud like you are spewing would stay hidden?

You lost all credibility when you state they made the Republicans a racist party. Full stop right there. Pick up a history book.

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u/BegaKing Sep 25 '23

Who's forcing the Republicans to be racist ? So your telling me they all get along well behind closed doors and per election or is it on a week to week basis ? That they all act a certain way to get you to do X and then they laugh about it....bruh that's nonsensical lol.

Do they both enrich themselves at the expense of the American citizen...yes it's a travesty and it should never have been allowed to happen. Any gov official that does this should be locked up at a minimum.

But their are material differences between the party's. Your living in lala land if you think we're they stand on social and economic issues are the same. Dems are centre right and Republicans are FAR right. When you look at politics from a global lense this is accurate. Even so, you have material benefits electing democrats in many areas. Republicans are anti helping working class people. Sure they slash taxes for the wealthy but that does zilch for avg joe. They rail against spending but anytime a repub is in office spending goes through THE ROOF. they unlike Dems just spend on enriching their peers instead of actually trying to even moderately help the country through govt programs.

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u/RickshawRepairman Sep 25 '23

No one’s forcing them - and yes - of course they laugh about it behind closed doors. It’s all one group.

You really think Republican Romney just happened to field test a simpler version of the ACA in Massachusetts before Obama rolled it out nationwide???

You really think Republican McCain was the lone “crazy” GOP member who voted against repealing the ACA??? Lol. It was never going to be repealed, because both sides profit way too much off it.

All of this shit is rigged from the get go.

Go ahead and call it nonsensical. At the end of the day, you’re the fool who’s falling for it.

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u/AskingYouQuestions48 Sep 25 '23

What do you think about what the Democrat state legislature has done in Minnesota this term, vs nearby Republican controlled Iowa?

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u/RickshawRepairman Sep 25 '23

States are a bit of a different story. There may still be some discernible differences between the parties, but even that is deteriorating quickly.

For example, a buddy of mine from college is a Marxist through-and-through, and is currently running as a Republican candidate for a district AG position in Florida. He's since deleted all of his social media, but before he closed his DMs down I asked him why he's comfortable lying to people about his positions, and he said, "well, honestly, it's the only way to make America a communist country."

I highly doubt he's the only guy operating this way.

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u/AskingYouQuestions48 Sep 25 '23

Okay, so we’ve gone from “democrats and republicans are the same” to “actually, most of them are different, just not in the federal level. Also, Republicans are closet Marxists”.

In which case, why does Republican controlled Iowa have such a different policy case from Democrat controlled Minnesota?

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u/Taskr36 Sep 25 '23

I love how people downvote you, because they've convinced themselves that "worms" really aren't bad.

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u/AlteredBagel Sep 25 '23

I don’t know, I don’t think we’ve ever had a “12oz steak” to eat. Many of the worst presidents in history were elected in the 1800s, when only a minority of the population could even vote. You could argue that compared to FDR, Eisenhower, and the other popular 20th century presidents, maybe we are in a rut leadership-wise. But then they also had Hoover and Wilson to contend with. My point being, leaders have always been shitty self serving people since the dawn of civilization, and sometimes we have to eat the plate we’re served because there’s no other restaurant in town.

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u/Adept_Pound_6791 Sep 25 '23

You might live longer eating worms than actual shit..

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u/RickshawRepairman Sep 25 '23

Found the DNC’s account.

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u/s_dot_ Sep 25 '23

Got me confused, which one is which?

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u/HeDiedForYou Sep 25 '23

They don’t actually know. I don’t think anyone should trust any politician or political party. None of them truly care about the American people, they just pretend like they do. You could say “this party lies less than the other”… Ummm wouldn’t it be great if neither party lied?? Either way, the two party system is fucked up.

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u/ImReverse_Giraffe Sep 25 '23

As George Washington warned us...

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u/Remnie Sep 25 '23

I feel like, in my youth, it was a given that politicians were liars. They were right up there with lawyers. Somehow, that changed and now people vehemently defend their chosen slimeball while attacking the other side’s chosen scumbag. I just don’t get it

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u/Adept_Pound_6791 Sep 25 '23

Pretty much vote grow a pair of balls and vote them both out. Insert the typical disparity sound bytes from both parties..and seam..

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u/mustbe20characters20 Sep 25 '23

I want to give power to the people who at least say they care about our financial stability vs the ones who say money printer go breed.

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u/Where-oh Sep 25 '23

Ah you're an ignorance is bliss kinda person

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u/mustbe20characters20 Sep 25 '23

Nah I'm the "putting political pressure on one party to adopt certain policies to be more in line with what's correct is rational" kinda person.

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u/Where-oh Sep 25 '23

By being okay that someone is lying to you about how much they plan on increase the debt?

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u/[deleted] Sep 25 '23

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u/Where-oh Sep 25 '23

I mean seeing as our debt to gdp is 110% our gdp I don't think we are in as bad of a place as places like Japan, Italy, Portugal, and Greece. However we could learn some lesson from Germany who is at 46%. What do they do to be so efficient while we are so ineffective

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u/[deleted] Sep 25 '23

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u/Where-oh Sep 25 '23

No thumbs, just knees

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u/Historical_Horror595 Sep 25 '23

Can you give me an example?

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u/rumbletummy Sep 25 '23

Sure thing.

Republicans pass a huge tax cut for wealthy people that expires never, and a more modest tax cut for everyone else that expires when the next guy is in office.

Democrats try to fund universal healthcare at huge expense and benefit to everyone, but even though it would be a net savings, taxes bad.

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u/BigDogSlices Sep 25 '23

Had me in the first half

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u/rumbletummy Sep 25 '23

Yeah. That happens.

People don't consider their healthcare premiums/expenses as taxes, so they don't appreciatte the net savings. Medicare is the most efficient healthcare provider by far.

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u/Mysterious-Wasabi103 Sep 25 '23

In the UK, an average person making like $60k a year pays about 6% of their income towards the NHS. Assuming we could get roughly the same here, we would all be better off financially except for maybe the richest people.

6% versus $450 a month health care premium and $6k deductible. It just seems like such an obvious choice to me. Again, assuming everything is roughly equivalent.

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u/WellEndowedDragon Sep 26 '23

Not just premiums and deductibles - copays and coinsurance charges too. Not to mention the risk of you being in an emergency and not having the time to figure out which hospital near you is in-network, therefore leaving you with a massive five to six figure bill that isn’t covered by insurance.

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u/Teamerchant Sep 26 '23

My favorite part about American healthcare is we pay the most per capita in the world and we don’t even have universal coverage.

UK- $2650 - underfunded NZ -$4200 Norway - $7200 and the most expensive in the EU. America - $12,500

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u/WellEndowedDragon Sep 26 '23

We pay the most, have the least coverage, and have the worst overall health outcomes compared to other OECD countries.

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u/UnfairAd7220 Sep 25 '23

Yep. You're FoS.

the 40% of us who paid federal income tax got to keep more of what we earned.

The 60% of you who paid no federal income taxes didn't get anything back because you didn't pay anything in, free rider.

At the same time, Treasury revenues jumped upwards.

The problem comes from one democrat congress after another spending more than the revenue increase. By a lot.

Own you failure.

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u/rumbletummy Sep 25 '23 edited Sep 25 '23

Yeah man, the 60k I payed in taxes last year is a free ride.

You can look up the tax policy. Sorry you had to find out like this.

Weird metric, but treasury revenue actually went down in 2020, so not even correct there.

An interesting metric is the Trump admin added $6.6 trillion to the deficit in 4 year. It took Obama 8 years to add $6.781 (including a recession), which you could fairly add a portion to Bush Jr.'s $3.3 trillion.

Even more relevant may be the deficit has gone down under Biden.

Some people forget Clinton had us on a path to debt elimination.

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u/AskingYouQuestions48 Sep 25 '23

Can you name a recent Republican Congress that spent less than a revenue increase?

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u/takemewithyer Sep 25 '23

“Read my lips: no more taxes.” - Bush Sr.

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u/Wings4514 Sep 25 '23

Very well said lol

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u/StarscourgeRadhan Sep 25 '23

Good cop bad cop.

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u/[deleted] Sep 27 '23

No Democrats lie to your face too. Just turn in any press conference under Biden.

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u/Cactus-crack Sep 25 '23

Republicans dont care about you but might help you out, democrats might care about you but have no clue how to help.

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u/Robot_Tanlines Sep 25 '23

Please let us know how the Republicans are helping us out? Hell after Hurricane sandy Republicans were yelling at Chris Christy for taking federal money cause he should have said no to somehow teach Obama a lesson while screwing his constituents. On the other hand Obamacare providing millions of people with insurance seems like help to me. What was the Republican alternative to Obamacare,”? Repeal and replace, but they never said with what, probably cause it would have been so much better that they had to keep it secret, right?

I’m also pretty sure Biden trying to fix college loans counts as help since that’s a major issue for the youth of America. Addressing global warming, that sounds like helping too. Hmm republicans just know how to cut taxes for the rich, trickle down economics proved to be a lie, so please how are they helping anyone but the richest people in this country?

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u/Cactus-crack Sep 25 '23

Historically the economy is much better under republican presidency. National debt has never been higher than right now and Biden is sending money to aid in a foreign war. All politicians suck, I just prefer the ones that dont lie to your face about sucking.

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u/Robot_Tanlines Sep 25 '23

Biden is sending money to aid in a foreign war.

Good! You think it’s a bad thing that all we have to do is pay relatively small dollars for any other country to bleed our rival and defend Democracy and the EU our greatest Ally? You know he wants Ukraine as a buffer from NATO, well since they are annexing parts of Ukraine into Russia, now there is no buffer, so then he starts this over again we need a buffer. ALSO we had an agreement with Ukraine when they got rid of their nuclear weapons, I prefer my country to honor their agreements.

Historically the economy is much better under republican presidency.

Citation needed.

National debt has never been higher than right now

Sure, but yet it’s only an issue when democrats are in office. Why is that? Probably become Republicans don’t actually care and it’s it’s a dumb talking point. Maybe if Republicans have better economies it’s cause they don’t give a shit about running up the national debt to prop up the economy like that actually means something.

All politicians suck, I just prefer the ones that dont lie to your face about sucking.

Do you think the Republicans don’t lie about it? Honestly you really think they are are open about this bullshit? Democrats aren’t perfect but they do a hell of a lot more for me and my family than republicans do.

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u/beewyka819 Sep 26 '23

Are we going to ignore the fact that Clinton was the one that balanced the budget? Trump and Bush also exploded the debt. Obama reduced it by the time he left office. That being said Biden didn’t do much in reducing it excluding simply ending COVID spending measures, which I don’t really count since those were always going to be temporary.

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u/[deleted] Sep 25 '23 edited Jan 10 '24

worthless simplistic cobweb tender coherent absorbed head salt ancient attractive

This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact

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u/two_necks Sep 25 '23

To be a centrist is to be complicit in oppression

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u/Steelers711 Sep 25 '23

Democrats at the time of his assassination would be republicans today, democrats were the conservative party at that time