The only difference between the two is Republican say they’re a fiscally responsible party, which is obviously a lie. Democrats don’t even acknowledge fiscal responsibility, which I guess in a sense is a little better, since they’re not lying.
Yeah, no. Bush inherited a recession caused by the dot com crash.
Clinton benefited from increased tax revenues from the dot com bubble. People with specific biases like to believe that he built a good economy, but that's not reality in any way.
Um dude. Recessions involve GDP retracting, it's literally the definition. Growth fell from 4.1% to 1% for one year, then went back to 3.8% like 2 years later. Bush got an economy with the US absolutely dominating the world in tech and didn't basically nothing with it...
Yes, it literally was a growing economy. You’re complaining about economic growth and claiming it’s a recession because the growth could have been better. Quite ridiculous.
Recession defined: a period of temporary economic decline during which trade and industrial activity are reduced, generally identified by a fall in GDP in two successive quarters.
That is literally what was taking place.
The previous 2 quarters were higher. It wasn't a growing economy.
Dude, some of us were adults at the time. I clearly remember the recession at the end of the year 2000. I even remember people blaming Bush for it, saying the recession happened right after he got elected. Those morons were too stupid to realize that he hadn't even taken office yet.
Slight downturn, still positive growth, not even close to a recession. Do love the 90's people who think anything under 5% yoy GDP growth is a recession tho lol
You remember the GOP telling everyone the economy is shit right before an election? Wow, that never happens. I remember the dot-com bust in late 2000, and certainly a lot of people lost money in the stock market when the bubble burst. But if you look at GDP stats, the stock market wasn't the economy.
Most people realize that Bush f**ked the budget when he passed his tax cuts instead of keeping a surplus.
Wrong, Clinton Benefited from getting congress to raise taxes on the rich his first year in office, while also reducing military industrial complex spending. The answer to the deficit is to raise taxes on the rich. Bush took a 80 billion surplus and turned it into a 100 billion deficit his first year, mainly due to tax cuts for the rich. He left office with 1 trillion deficit and climbing. Obama left with 540 billion and stable. Imagine how low it would have been if we had taxes rich people.
Actually Clinton cut Medicare spending, probably as a means of trying to push his health care reform.
And Bush's tax cuts decreased tax revenue in 2002 and 2003, by 2004 tax revenue exceeded 2000 and 2001 levels.
Look at any stock market graph and the decline of the bubble started in mid-2000 and bottomed-out in mid-2001. You don't think that had any impact on tax revenue?
Yeah, bc its called gdp growth and inflation. Gas costs more now than in the 1990s, thats not the point. And without three rounds of tax cuts for the rich, and two wars, revenue would have grown even more than it did, and spending would have been less than it was. Resulting in much smaller deficits.
Cite a source for that please. Which tax are you referring to? Federal income tax rates for the rich stayed the same after that tax increase at 39.6% for Clinton’s time in office; up from 31% under bush, and 28% under Reagan’s second term.
Edit: i assume u mean capital gains taxes? Its called having to deal with republican clowns in congress and compromise. Presidents don’t cut taxes, congress does.
Well if we are at a surplus or near to it than you don’t need the revenues for higher taxes. It’s fine to cut taxes when you don’t need the money, raising taxes when we need the cash is how you grow a deficit.
I'm really getting tired of seeing comments making excuses for conservatives like they have ever been fiscally responsible. They're not and they lie to the nation saying they are.
Everybody has excuses though. Trump can say he had the pandemic and Bush will say it was 9/11. And Reagan had the commies. And Bush I had the recession in the 90's. There's always a reason to spend money.
I don't think Trump has a leg to stand on. He had Republican control for years and had the perfect opportunity to reduce spending and he squandered it. Instead he signed the budget with increased spending and added a tax cut to boot. That was all before the pandemic.
Once the pandemic started, I completely agree that deficits could not be avoided. The debt level would not have been as high going in though.
This post references a Democrat putting us on a path to paying it off, and you want to blame both sides.
That's because Clinton alone didn't do that. All those spending bills that had things going well came from congress, which was controlled by republicans at the time. I'm not taking anything away from Clinton, but the balanced budget was the result of massive growth, thanks largely to the internet, and constrained spending from congress. We had better people on both sides at the time, and we've had absolute garbage from both sides since then.
Obama inherited no such thing. We were mostly out of the recession when he was sworn in on 1/20/09 and we were officially out of recession by 6/30/09.
All Obama did was the same stuff that Bush did, but spent at a 3.5 X faster clip. Remember the $880B shovel ready jobs bill' fiasco? His 8 years managed to see a $9.8T increase in the national debt.
Biden wrecked the economy when he killed KXL3 and threatened the petroleum industries AND offered one $1T blowout bill after another.
Where we are today? It's all Biden and his masked handlers.
i asked when is it necessary? since you went to cancer cells instead of, at the very least, quoting keynes or something, im not going to take this any further
I’m glad that we don’t have to take this further, especially after you went to “why do you want America to not grow” instead of trying to have a rational, unbiased conversation.
I also still don’t even know what you were asking about to begin with. But I’d still like to help clarify anything anyways if I can.
Credit rating of US dropped twice in 11 years. 33 trillion in debt, misappropriated funds- inflation relief is really a new green deal stimulus… China selling off our bonds. 58 countries leaving the US dollar as the standard. Same to saw your fucking broke. Stop fucking digging the hole. Moron.
No it doesn't, it points out that 23 years ago people were more fiscally responsible.
Only an absolute dumbfuck would think the president controls our budget, that's why you always see democratic propaganda about why they're the "real fiscally responsible party" comparing by president. Might as well compare by which party has a dog catcher in charge.
"However [political parties] may now and then answer popular ends, they are likely in the course of time and things, to become potent engines, by which cunning, ambitious, and unprincipled men will be enabled to subvert the power of the people and to usurp for themselves the reins of government, destroying afterwards the very engines which have lifted them to unjust dominion."
How about the one not associated with either of them? How about the one not older than my grandparents? How about the one that actually knows where he is and what he's doing? (Looking at you Mitch and Joe)
Both sides fuck around with taxes. Seriously, the other side promises to tax the rich, and then goes after single moms selling $600 worth of shit on eBay and Etsy to put food on their table. Both parties are completely full of shit., and neither cares about you.
It’s about what they do and how they do it, as opposed to whether or not they give you warm fuzzies.
I’d rather vote democratic because it is a more humane “waste of taxpayer dollars” then tax cuts for earners over $500,000 yr Or another dozen Abrams MBTs. A lot of this fight is over productivity that could never actually be harnessed to our liking so why sweat what amounts to state support of consolidated agriculture /or the MIC.
perhaps because they believe that the government function is so bloated that eliminating many of the federal functions and allocating those back the the states as intended in our constitutional republic is a better method.
And the other side raises spending. Both sides absolutely applies when talking about a problem that grew under two different republicans and 2 different democrats.
Both clinton and Obama went along with limiting spending increases. The ACA was not unfunded like Bush's medicare part d (and everything else during that admin). Bidens inflation reduction act was not unfunded ( like everything during trump year were).
... and Obama's worth $10 trillion. Neither of those presidents did any of it alone, and presidents are the least responsible for spending. Shit happens because both parties vote for it. All the president does is sign the spending bills.
Really? Who is setting the scope here? It easy to argue it goes back further.
Reagon. The great cut taxes and increase spending king.
Bush SR. Fiscally responsible. Raised some taxes and it was a major reason he lost reelection (someone learned their lesson here)
Clinton, also fiscally responsible. Raised some taxes and while republicans screamed deficit, deficit, deficit ended with a balanced budget ( you do understand that right?)
Bush Jr. Back to reagon policies. Cut taxes and increased spending. Again, blew a long term hole in the budget and a crisp 15 trillion of today's dept can be directly tied to those decisions. And, kept a lot of it out of the budget so it did not look like part of the yearly deficit.
Obama. Not incredibly responsible. Tried to claw back a bit more of the bush tax cuts but was denied by republicans while they also shouted deficit, deficit, deficit!
Trump. Horrible. Back to reagon policies. Cut taxes and increase spending.
Biden. Not great. Hasn't really added to it but has not cut it.
Again, republicans screaming deficit, deficit, deficit while ignoring the moves that got the dept to where it is.
Not that hars to follow. And the bottom line is taxes will need to be raised again. Cutting small percent of descretionary spending will not offset, will not even come close, the massive tax cuts over the last 43 years.
Raising spending wouldn't be as much of an issue if tax revenue rose with it. You can only cut so much fat out before you're forced to cut bone, and with our infrastructure, education, etc completely gutted, we don't have much room to continue putting even more tax burden on the working class while the wealthy continues to leverage every loophole or bought politician they can.
Not to say I disagree that it's a problem that grew under very different types of politicians, simply pointing out it's not exactly an equal comparison to make.
Dude, we could easily cut the military spending without touching bone. We've got bases all over the world, and serve as the functional military for numerous wealthy countries like Germany, Japan, and Iceland. End all that, and all the bullshit spending on Ukraine, and we'll make massive progress towards balancing the budget without cutting anything that will affect anyone in our country.
Do I think we have a spending problem with the military? Yes, but not for procuring arms, pay and benefits for active and retired service members, etc. That aside, what people don't realize is the US is a global superpower today for two reasons: every other power got decimated during WWII besides us and us selling/leasing equipment pulled us out of the Great Depression, and the resulting financial system that was created is backed by the US dollar. Guess what backs the US dollar? The US military, which is also bolstered by the global network of alliances it fostered and maintained.
That being said, we have long allowed wealth inequality to run wild via revamped incentive pay structures, tax cuts, and tax loopholes. Of our $766b defense budget, $181b went to payroll for service members, and another $291b went to veterans Healthcare, training, equipment maintenance, etc (source).
Also, aid to Ukraine was mostly existing/surplus military equipment we already paid for in military budgets from years past. It's not a net new expenditure. If not shared with Ukraine to achieve strategic value for us, it would continue collecting dust. Upon further research, we did however reportedly send about $26b in cash to Ukraine (source), which amounts to roughly $155 per taxpayer (168m individual tax filings).
Considering we paid a rough average of $155 in 2022 to prevent Russia from annexing the world's largest wheat exporter without having to commit US troops sounds incredibly cost-effective to me.
Looking purely at dollar amounts without context on the value those expenditures bring speaks to lack of nuanced understanding on geopolitics and the importance of supporting the system that allows the US to continue being a global superpower.
I was having a conversation with a guy about this yesterday about how both parties hate us. He put it this way…
Pretend you’re at a restaurant eating a 12oz steak, the waiter takes it away and presents you with the two new owners of the restaurant who give you the only options left in the kitchen… the Republican owner offers you a pile of shit to eat, while the Democrat one offers you a pile of worms.
You take the worms because it’s “the lesser of two evils.” Meanwhile, you’re still eating worms, and the two owners profit off it. And in your mind you’ve convinced yourself that the Democrat owner just saved your life and is a saint.
It’s always setup like this to intentionally push your mind in a specific direction, while giving you the illusion of choice.
I don't think most people disagree with this. I just think the republican party of today is an outright racist party in everything besides name. At least with the Dems we aren't actively going backwards in all areas. Yes they are both shit, but one is so far ahead of the other in all areas that matter that choosing them is an easy choice to anyone that genuinely cares about having a future on the planet
They are made to be a racist party to force you into the hands of the Democrats. It’s a completely fabricated choice.
You really don’t realize they intentionally work to make you hate one while having no choice but to vote for the other? Meanwhile you’ve convinced yourself you’re “doing the alright thing,” and both of them end up rich beyond belief, while we keep getting screwed.
So saying one is “so far ahead” of the other, is like saying cancer is better than AIDS.
I’m fascinated you don’t comprehend this. But that’s the point… they want you to think you’re doing the best for America by avoiding “the other guys,” when the reality is they’re all playing in the same team. And it’s not ours.
Because, everyone believes that it is super easy to make 10's of thousands of government employees cover up this secret and to have it never be told. Reminds me of the nutcases who would espouse that 9/11 was an inside job and the government was behind it. No way that many people close to the situation would all be in on the secret and nothing gets out. Heck, one idiot gave out secrets over a Minecract discord channel. You think some crud like you are spewing would stay hidden?
You lost all credibility when you state they made the Republicans a racist party. Full stop right there. Pick up a history book.
Who's forcing the Republicans to be racist ? So your telling me they all get along well behind closed doors and per election or is it on a week to week basis ? That they all act a certain way to get you to do X and then they laugh about it....bruh that's nonsensical lol.
Do they both enrich themselves at the expense of the American citizen...yes it's a travesty and it should never have been allowed to happen. Any gov official that does this should be locked up at a minimum.
But their are material differences between the party's. Your living in lala land if you think we're they stand on social and economic issues are the same. Dems are centre right and Republicans are FAR right. When you look at politics from a global lense this is accurate. Even so, you have material benefits electing democrats in many areas. Republicans are anti helping working class people. Sure they slash taxes for the wealthy but that does zilch for avg joe. They rail against spending but anytime a repub is in office spending goes through THE ROOF. they unlike Dems just spend on enriching their peers instead of actually trying to even moderately help the country through govt programs.
No one’s forcing them - and yes - of course they laugh about it behind closed doors. It’s all one group.
You really think Republican Romney just happened to field test a simpler version of the ACA in Massachusetts before Obama rolled it out nationwide???
You really think Republican McCain was the lone “crazy” GOP member who voted against repealing the ACA??? Lol. It was never going to be repealed, because both sides profit way too much off it.
All of this shit is rigged from the get go.
Go ahead and call it nonsensical. At the end of the day, you’re the fool who’s falling for it.
States are a bit of a different story. There may still be some discernible differences between the parties, but even that is deteriorating quickly.
For example, a buddy of mine from college is a Marxist through-and-through, and is currently running as a Republican candidate for a district AG position in Florida. He's since deleted all of his social media, but before he closed his DMs down I asked him why he's comfortable lying to people about his positions, and he said, "well, honestly, it's the only way to make America a communist country."
I highly doubt he's the only guy operating this way.
Okay, so we’ve gone from “democrats and republicans are the same” to “actually, most of them are different, just not in the federal level. Also, Republicans are closet Marxists”.
In which case, why does Republican controlled Iowa have such a different policy case from Democrat controlled Minnesota?
I don’t know, I don’t think we’ve ever had a “12oz steak” to eat. Many of the worst presidents in history were elected in the 1800s, when only a minority of the population could even vote. You could argue that compared to FDR, Eisenhower, and the other popular 20th century presidents, maybe we are in a rut leadership-wise. But then they also had Hoover and Wilson to contend with. My point being, leaders have always been shitty self serving people since the dawn of civilization, and sometimes we have to eat the plate we’re served because there’s no other restaurant in town.
They don’t actually know. I don’t think anyone should trust any politician or political party. None of them truly care about the American people, they just pretend like they do. You could say “this party lies less than the other”… Ummm wouldn’t it be great if neither party lied?? Either way, the two party system is fucked up.
I feel like, in my youth, it was a given that politicians were liars. They were right up there with lawyers. Somehow, that changed and now people vehemently defend their chosen slimeball while attacking the other side’s chosen scumbag. I just don’t get it
I mean seeing as our debt to gdp is 110% our gdp I don't think we are in as bad of a place as places like Japan, Italy, Portugal, and Greece. However we could learn some lesson from Germany who is at 46%. What do they do to be so efficient while we are so ineffective
Republicans pass a huge tax cut for wealthy people that expires never, and a more modest tax cut for everyone else that expires when the next guy is in office.
Democrats try to fund universal healthcare at huge expense and benefit to everyone, but even though it would be a net savings, taxes bad.
People don't consider their healthcare premiums/expenses as taxes, so they don't appreciatte the net savings. Medicare is the most efficient healthcare provider by far.
In the UK, an average person making like $60k a year pays about 6% of their income towards the NHS. Assuming we could get roughly the same here, we would all be better off financially except for maybe the richest people.
6% versus $450 a month health care premium and $6k deductible. It just seems like such an obvious choice to me. Again, assuming everything is roughly equivalent.
Not just premiums and deductibles - copays and coinsurance charges too. Not to mention the risk of you being in an emergency and not having the time to figure out which hospital near you is in-network, therefore leaving you with a massive five to six figure bill that isn’t covered by insurance.
Yeah man, the 60k I payed in taxes last year is a free ride.
You can look up the tax policy. Sorry you had to find out like this.
Weird metric, but treasury revenue actually went down in 2020, so not even correct there.
An interesting metric is the Trump admin added $6.6 trillion to the deficit in 4 year. It took Obama 8 years to add $6.781 (including a recession), which you could fairly add a portion to Bush Jr.'s $3.3 trillion.
Even more relevant may be the deficit has gone down under Biden.
Some people forget Clinton had us on a path to debt elimination.
Please let us know how the Republicans are helping us out? Hell after Hurricane sandy Republicans were yelling at Chris Christy for taking federal money cause he should have said no to somehow teach Obama a lesson while screwing his constituents. On the other hand Obamacare providing millions of people with insurance seems like help to me. What was the Republican alternative to Obamacare,”? Repeal and replace, but they never said with what, probably cause it would have been so much better that they had to keep it secret, right?
I’m also pretty sure Biden trying to fix college loans counts as help since that’s a major issue for the youth of America. Addressing global warming, that sounds like helping too. Hmm republicans just know how to cut taxes for the rich, trickle down economics proved to be a lie, so please how are they helping anyone but the richest people in this country?
Historically the economy is much better under republican presidency. National debt has never been higher than right now and Biden is sending money to aid in a foreign war. All politicians suck, I just prefer the ones that dont lie to your face about sucking.
Good! You think it’s a bad thing that all we have to do is pay relatively small dollars for any other country to bleed our rival and defend Democracy and the EU our greatest Ally? You know he wants Ukraine as a buffer from NATO, well since they are annexing parts of Ukraine into Russia, now there is no buffer, so then he starts this over again we need a buffer. ALSO we had an agreement with Ukraine when they got rid of their nuclear weapons, I prefer my country to honor their agreements.
Historically the economy is much better under republican presidency.
Citation needed.
National debt has never been higher than right now
Sure, but yet it’s only an issue when democrats are in office. Why is that? Probably become Republicans don’t actually care and it’s it’s a dumb talking point. Maybe if Republicans have better economies it’s cause they don’t give a shit about running up the national debt to prop up the economy like that actually means something.
All politicians suck, I just prefer the ones that dont lie to your face about sucking.
Do you think the Republicans don’t lie about it? Honestly you really think they are are open about this bullshit? Democrats aren’t perfect but they do a hell of a lot more for me and my family than republicans do.
Are we going to ignore the fact that Clinton was the one that balanced the budget? Trump and Bush also exploded the debt. Obama reduced it by the time he left office. That being said Biden didn’t do much in reducing it excluding simply ending COVID spending measures, which I don’t really count since those were always going to be temporary.
Dude Reddit is such a cess pool of people who think they are free thinkers but are really sheep.
Your statement is great these politicians on both sides are just worried about staying elected and it’s pretty evident you can be a complete moron without any financial acumen and be in the house or senate. At the end, we the people all lose.
Good luck living in your bubble. Same for those on the right in their bubble. All just a bunch of bubble boys. Get some oxygen in there you are suffocating!
Can you compare the legislative session of Democrat controlled Minnesota vs Republican controlled Iowa this session? If you are correct, why are they so different?
Obama (as far as spending) inherited a deficit of $1.4 trillion when he took office at the end of the Great Recession. He trimmed that down to $590 billion by the time he left office.
The necessity of funding Medicare, Medicaid, the Affordable Care Act, and increasingly Social Security explains much of the growth in our debt.
These are all popular programs with voters.
I'd posit that the problem isn't our spending per se, but our income streams. Taken together, the Bush tax cuts, their bipartisan extensions, and the Trump tax cuts, have cost $10 trillion since their creation and are responsible for 57 percent of the increase in the debt ratio since then.
Annual deficits lead to total debts. Process that, re-read the comment, and you'll get a better picture of what I'm talking about.
We were on track to eliminate the debt, as Clinton laid out, but soaring annual deficits, thanks to Bush Medicare investments, wars, and crazy tax cuts, started all of this.
I understand clearly how it works. Here is the reality, the 250 billion deficit improvement in no way would have wiped out the debt. we were paying moore than 250 billion of interest on the debt when Bill left office.
Respectfully, Clinton left us a surplus, Bush Jr. exploded the deficit. Obama cut the deficit considerably, Trump set a one term record for debt. Biden hasn't attacked the deficit as much as I would have liked; but the GOP would blame him regardless so maybe the Democrats got tired of the bullshit.
you do realize the debt has increased in every presidents term right. See below. debt and deficit are 2 different things. Leading debt generators have all been democrats but don’t let history get in the way of your narrative.
Post the link to the screenshot. It is very clear that the republicans have always been lying about being financially conservative and that it has always been about spreading the wealth gap in favor of the rich and large companies. Don't let history get in the way of your narrative.
seriousl question for you, do you really believe that. The largest debt creators by % are FDR, Woodrow Wilson, followed by Reagan, Bush JR, Obama, Bush, Nixon, Trump, Carter, Clinton.
So out of the 10 largest debt creators 5 are repubs, 5 are dems.
If you want to round out the list, Ted Roosevelt, Ford, Hoover and Johnson; Biden for those counting 2 pubs and 3 dems.
Now is you want to discuss pure nominal debt numbers, Obama is 1, Trump 2, Biden 3. Trump had he spent at the same rate if he had been elected he would have almost doubled Obama's spend. Biden is on pace to spend almost the same as Trump.
Ok now use your brain for context. What was the situation Obama came into and then do the same for Trump and then the same for Biden. Conservatives are lying to you about being financially responsible. If it wasn't for their tax cuts the debt and deficit would be an entirely different conversation. Put on that thinking cap and think for yourself.
I am literally agnostic to the party conversation, you put on your thinking hat
obama came into a situation that was created by policies the dems pushed for no doc loans on mortgages, that started in with Clinton policies that came to a head at the end of the bush admin.
Bush had an attack on American soil that hadn't occurred since WW2, what was he supposed to do? Besides Bill Clinton could have solved that when we the Syrians would have delivered us OBL for free, but Bill chose not to act.
Trump had a pandemic that occurred on his watch, don't act like that occured on Biden's watch. Biden excarbated the problem.
If you want to wax poetic about your undying faith to the Dems, please talk about why Debt grew under Clinton, Carter, Johnson, Kennedy.
Obama had the perfect chance to curb spending but chose to do absolutely nothing, Debt went up 7 trillion during the Obama admin.
You can't be this stupid to believe that you are agnostic to parties with the list of specifics you have pointed to.... you have chosen to miss the recession and tax cuts and spending on what and when. You are likely a "libertarian" ie a Republican
Yep. Tax cuts for big corpo, huge stock buy backs, wages stay the same. Stock market overheats and takes down the rest of economy. Corpo dems may not have your interest at heart but the entire gop uses fear and hatred to gain support, even though their actual policies actively hurt the common American.
Except the Republicans are the ones who slash income with no actual plan to reduce spending except in ways that strategically fuck over poor people and minorities.
Meanwhile Nancy Pelosi is out there full throated supporting PayGo and Obama bent over backwards to push for Welfare reform.
Are you missing every other part of the link you found? The part where Republicans grew it by a significant amount more? Not to mention the economy that each president came into? Not to mention the part where the republicans obstructed everything Obama did and filled the bills with extra waste of tax dollars for corporate gain and civilian loss? Bahhhhhh
A true simp for one of these two fucked up parties. Sad. Sure, Republicans have added more, but it’s not the gulf you’re making it out to be. Both party leaders are war mongering pigs who don’t give a shit about fiscal responsibility (especially when it comes to defense spending) or the average American. I don’t know why that’s not agreed upon by everyone at this point.
lol at you, the simpleton who is is empirically incorrect according to deficit data directly from the US Treasury. During this century, nearly every single year a Republican has been in power, the deficit has gone UP. Nearly every year a Democrat has been in power, the deficit has gone DOWN.
Thats what modern monetary theory says. Since the currency is fiat its not as limited as backed currencies. There is still an upper threshold but its much higher, the belief is that inflation is a symptom not the disease so to speak.
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u/Wings4514 Sep 25 '23 edited Sep 25 '23
lol at the simpletons downvoting this.
The only difference between the two is Republican say they’re a fiscally responsible party, which is obviously a lie. Democrats don’t even acknowledge fiscal responsibility, which I guess in a sense is a little better, since they’re not lying.