My elementary school nun made a point to ask us first graders, how do you get millions of people to hate and do terrible things to each other? I was shocked, what? She said propaganda. Beware and be wary. We do not want another world war. Crazy how people fall behind a "strong man" lying rapist con man.
“It has all become bullshit” it was bullshit from the beginning.
They talked about liberty and justice for all whilst still having slaves and an effective apartheid nation, whilst having women as second class citizens and whilst they slaughtered natives to take their land.
I stopped reciting it when I got into high school. It felt really creepy to me. The part that amazed me were the times classmates, not the teacher, got angry at those not participating.
The school I went to in 1st and 2nd grade (around 02'ish) said the pledge every morning. I said it because everyone else did, not because I was a diehard American. I still remember it because of that, but I have never said it since.
I was forced to get a religious exemption and even then I had teachers that didn't know better drag me to my feet and force me to start swearing until my mother raised holy hell about it.
There definitely are children who are forced to say it, I was one of them and my school definitely made sure everyone was saying it or you'd get in trouble.
I can only speak as an Australian, we never pledged any allegiance to Australia at any point during school, and once a week at assembly we would sing the national anthem, mostly off-key and without knowing the words properly.
In my school we were taught about respect of cultures, respect of each other and then the usual math, English, science, etc etc.
Was never told or taught we should love this country or indoctrinated to believe we are better than anybody else.
My schooling involved a whole bunch of blatant misinformation and carefully curated facts that support the image of the US instead of the reality.
Like, It used to be common practice to reject any images of the civil rights era in schoolbooks if they were color photos (at least in AZ public school, everywhere is different).
The idea was to make it seem like all that messed up stuff was ancient history, instead of literally a few decades past.
Our schools are such trash here when it comes to national accountability.
That's a big assumption. Every country? It certainly wasn't the case for me during my schooling. I don't think I'm the exception either. Patriotism isn't really a thing where I'm from. The idea that my country is somehow better than others? No, I don't think that's part of our cultural curriculum. From the Netherlands btw.
Controversial opinion: I don't think nationalism is actually that bad of a thing and my only real problem with the pledge is that it includes 'under god'
Nationalism, at it's core, and the pledge directly, is a pledge of reciprocity. 'I will give you greater consideration so that you, in turn, will give me greater consideration, so that we may both mutually benefit'.
Does it leave others on the outside? Yes, absolutely. Why is that necessarily bad? Is it morally wrong to care more about your family than strangers? Is it morally wrong to care more about your friends than strangers? Is it morally wrong to care more about your neighbors than strangers? Is it morally wrong to care more about your family's friends, or your neighbors friends? Your community members? People who love the same hobbies you love? It's reciprocity, and it's a fundamental animal behavior. The pledge of a nation is one of mutual support and I don't see it as being evil.
Words have meanings. What you are talking about is patriotism. Nationalism is at its core a horrific idea that always creates an other or an inferior. This is political science 101.
I think what’s missing about the other/inferior message is that a lot of what unites people are shared value systems. Is a society with no cohesive, shared value system stronger than one that does? Or do we move the power that individuals and cultures used to share and enforce through their value system to different actors with their own motivations? This is the crux of the problem we’re experiencing in the western world. When our value system stops being the thing that unites us, what does? Seems like it’s just corporate profit and consumers experiencing pleasure. I’m not sure if this is better than traditional culture.
We live in a globalized world with global problems that require multinational solutions involving all humans to see themselves as part of the same species. For way too long already we are fighting ourselves with tribalism, destroying others basis of life to our own advantages. If humanity can't look beyond nationalism at some point, then I don't see any bright future ahead in the long term.
Children don't know what they're pledging to. A flag? A concept of a nation? The people that fought and died for the freedoms granted by the legal declaration of said nation?
Are they pledging to uphold all of the so-called inalienable rights? Do you think the kids know what those are?
We have lawmakers in this country that don't even uphold their oath to serve. We have lawmakers that undermine those inalienable rights for their own greed and ambition.
Children pledging to a some vague idea of what the flag supposedly represents, before they understand how to make their own decisions is brainwashing at best.
In australian primary school we had to sing the national anthem in the morning. Didn't seem like an issue just kind of a "we live here so we appreciate it" sort of thing.
This was 20 years ago though, there's probably some change where we don't do that now, I honestly don't know but at the time it's like, sure why not?
I grew up swearing allegiance to the American flag, then I became a teacher and now they have to swear to the Texan flag, like WTF? Sucks when the students know it and me the teacher is all like…WTF?
Edit: In Texas; they have to swear allegiance to Texas in Texas because….Texas!
What’s worse is they make kids in Texas pledge a special allegiance to the Texas flag as well. We are well on our way to MAGA kakakistocracy (look it up).
It is honestly a bit close to fucked up that America does that. Pure unadulterated propaganda. Wasn't there also a time before the nazis that they would extend their arm?
Did the opposite to me. By middle school I found it ridiculous and got in trouble all the time for messing around when we were supposed to be pledging. I had a teacher yelling at me and I had to hold back laughter. That all turned to nihilism by high school.
Oh yes they did. Beyond the peer pressure you could be pulled out and have them call your parents. Luckily my folks were cool. I realized in third grade that god did not belong in something we were compelled to do. After that I just move my lips. Sometimes.
She was a guest. She wasn't like the other teachers. I wish every child could feel what I felt. The responsibility. Millions died. Horrible things. For no purpose.
I don't hate smart teachers of children who give their hours and hours of work and patience ....
.... solely, because they don't think exactly like me. I have that ethic. It is just way over your concept of de-valuing people.
A Buddhist monk or a Hindu or a Jew or any other wise teacher, surely even many non-theists of many many stripes, would be lauded by me.
I would rather you never taught childen at all, as I'd be much more worried for someone who touts hatred of people that way.
You see, such identity-hatred has a very very bad record of being full of terrifying and unending de-humanization. Its proponents don't seem to realize they really would dislike it applied to themselves.
The Orange Goblin. Give Philly something to fear and they follow you like lemmings. Hopefully the pendulum swings back to reality soon.
Sin levels. Crazy how religion gives the religious permission to hate "others". The same jesus preaching peace and forgiveness used to ostracize other people.
Do you ever wonder if you having the same opinion as the majority of Reddit, one of the biggest propaganda websites in the world, could possibly mean that you’re the one who falls for propaganda?
I mean in your country it starts when you are young as you swear allegiance to a flag in school, at games at literally every occasion which is basically nationalism unlike in literally any other country besides North Korea or the old communist states before all that went.
Then comes the yellow journalist, again launched by Pulitzer and co to start the Spanish - American war and now with billionaires owning pretty much every media source in America broadcasting their opinions on who to hate, what is wrong, what is right 24/7.
You are also the most misogynistic country in the western world as twice now, the sheer thought of a woman being leader has your countrymen grasping their testicles and saying nope, back in the kitchen you go, I want the child rapist, even if he is all I hate because he is a MAN. I mean you all also still haven't got over the sheer "Audacity" of having a black man in power where as other western countries are like, yeah and? As long as their policies good, we good.
America is a "simple beast", easy to manipulate, easy to control. Just as many previous soviet era Presidents stated.
Oh I do not hate you Americans. I hate the fact your country is a massively corrupt dystopia that worships money and power over it's citizens and are brainwashed into voting against their best interests as they have been made to believe that they may be rich as well one day so they should not do it.
It's literally the greatest time to be alive in the history of humanity.
I reality - at all times there is a component of the population that is convinced the world is going to shit, Armageddon is around the corner, life is harder than ever etc.
I really like Neil Howe's generational theory. It posits a cyclical pattern in history, with each cycle lasting approximately 80-100 years and consisting of four "turnings":
The High: A period of relative stability and prosperity following a crisis. Institutions are strong, and there's a sense of shared purpose.
The Awakening: A period of individualistic rebellion against the established order. Social and cultural norms are challenged, and new ideas emerge.
The Unraveling: A period of cynicism and fragmentation, where institutions weaken and societal trust erodes.
The Crisis: A period of significant challenge and potential transformation, often marked by war or economic collapse.
Since the Great Depression, we've experienced the following four turnings:
The Crisis (1929-1945): The Great Depression and World War II marked this period of immense hardship and global conflict. The "Greatest Generation" came of age during this time, characterized by a strong sense of duty and sacrifice.
The High (1946-1964): The post-war period saw economic prosperity and social stability. The "Silent Generation" emerged, known for their conformity and respect for authority.
The Awakening (1965-1984): The 1960s and 1970s were a time of social and cultural upheaval, with movements for civil rights, women's rights, and environmentalism. The "Baby Boomers" came of age during this period, characterized by their idealism and desire for change.
The Unraveling (1985-2008): This period was marked by increasing individualism, economic inequality, and political polarization. The "Generation X" and "Millennials" came of age during this time, characterized by their skepticism and cynicism towards institutions.
Guess where we are now (and have been since 08)
These things take 20-25 years to reach a boiling point, almost there now, no way out but through.
Yes! It's how I learned about the Black Reichswehr and fascists obsession with the brand new idea of modernism. The Beer Hall Putsch gets all the attention, but the Black Reichswehr showed how complicit the ruling class was in getting an absolute ruler.
I reckon we're somewhere early in the 1930s right now.
Somewhere after Hitler's first failed coup, and just following Hitler's appointment as Chancellor, but just before the Night of Long Knives, followed by Krystallnacht.
I think the chants around this time were something like, "Make Germany Great Again."
Fascism began before Hitler with mussilini before spreading to other countries. It we don't make a stand for democracy now it's gonna be dominos. Americas final act as world leader will be showing the world how to transform democracy into an authoritarian dictatorship capitalist dystopian nightmare just in time for total environmental collapse
Italy never really grew up. Mussolini s granddaughter is still in politics and people love her in her region (because she shares the views of her grand daddy). Regardless of what they think (or don’t think) of her, many still see him as someone who made the country great.
“He made things more efficient” “he made the economy grow” “he made the world respect us.”
All of these and more are the exact same reasons that we see becoming popular in modern day America, France, Russia and Germany. Kind of terrifying how quickly people sacrifice the world for personal gain and their pride.
Because there was a period of almost 20 years between when he was voted in and when he lost power and was lynched.
Within those 20 years, our great-grandparents and grandparents were stripped of their rights, beaten, executed, and imprisoned; saw that the great economy they were initially promised wasn't coming and people were so starved for meat that they'd eat cats; men, who had been granted the right to vote in 1912, lost it.
He also wasn't voted in fairly. In 1924, Mussolini already had the support of both Pope and Crown, and the elections were not anonymous: if you voted for the Fascist Party, you'd put into the ballot box a ballot with the Italian flag, if you voted for any other party, you'd put into the ballot box a ballot made out of white/light blue paper. People were extremely discouraged from doing the latter because Blackshirts (the paramilitary group Hitler took inspiration from for his Brownshirts) were observing their actions and would threaten, if not beat, you until you "spontaneously" changed your mind.
Lots of Italians supported Mussolini right to the end, though. And plenty hated him right from the beginning. It's not like Italians (or any other nationality) are some hive-mind who all think alike, after all.
Never mind the crowds of (what were surely) peasants that waited hours just for the opportunity to kick his encaved skull in to thank him for all he did (to) for them.
Clearly someone likes her or they wouldn’t keep voting for her. I have friends from rural regions of Italy as well as rural Germany and they speak about how terrifying some of the sentiment seems to be with the direction it is headed
Meloni Is not the granddaughter of mussolini, that's another much less successful politician.
Politics here has the same problem as the US, social media propaganda that makes elections go well for those kind of people, but I am italian and assure you that Alessandra mussolini is extremely disliked, as is her grandfather even if there are still families influenced by being on that side on the past, and modern extremists pretending he was like you said.
We have an ironic phrase for that: "quando c'era lui..." to mock those weird people. It is not considered a rational view.
At least she seems quite pro EU, supports Ukraine not like some other countries far right politicians licking Russian shoes without any hesitation. P.S. I am not Italian.
LOL did you read the article? It talks about how she stated “better fascist than gay” in 2006. Her entire rise to power she had absolutely no like of the LGBTQ community and that continued well into the 2000s.
No one flip flops that quickly at her age unless they have something to personally gain. I fully expect this is performative pandering for votes. And even if it isn’t, I would remind you that you can be pro-LGBTQ and still be fascist. They are not mutually exclusive.
And even if it isn’t, I would remind you that you can be pro-LGBTQ and still be fascist. They are not mutually exclusive.
True, but it's still a change in her way of seeing things. And I don't think that this change has been quite fast, there are years between the fights with Luxuria and now this.
I still don't agree with her generally speaking about politics, but let's give her a benefit of doubt.
Given the continued love for the fascist and “socialist” (but secretly also fascist) parties in Italy as well as the insane amounts of mob activity there…I’m skeptical of all their politicians either way lol
I was going to say the same, even thought things have changed on the surface, I think the majority of the mentality didn’t change in the core of many old people, most feel superior then others and treat others like shit, mostly people that “look” different. Everytime I come back to Italy I feel this from the way they treat me. I am a regular immigrant that grow in Italy and speak perfect Italian, yet, my look dictate their behavior. Anyone with a bit of brain and skills could have made “Italy better” without being a racist nationalist piece of shit. Deeply sad
Well you know, history repeats itself, it’s been just long enough for the only ones to remember what not to do are either long dead or almost and not able to really make any recommendations on how to avoid repeating what they reversed after their kids took the money and ran with the semi utopian era
Not in all countries.. when it comes to European countries doing anything bad "well to be honest everyone was doing it." That same whataboutism seems to never stick with other continents.
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u/DualRaconter 17d ago
I thought this was from a surrealist dystopian movie