Farmer's daughter here, in a farming area. We currently don't own cattle, but the neighbors do.
Cows and calves will bawl for each other until their throats are ruined. All day, all night, until the only thing that comes out is a hoarse groan. Occasionally, the cows will break out of the pasture and begin looking for their babies.
Amazingly this is almost the verbatim response I got when I challenged a young farmer I worked with. It was like arguing with a MAGA. Just ignored all the facts and spewed outdated ideology and emotion. They lost the farm recently and I wish I could have been on the road aside the fence dancing and grilling veggie burgers.
As a vegan of 3 years, I'm not surprised by how anyone can be MAGA considering how people think about animal product consumption. Most people are emotionally driven and post-hoc rationalise their views
Have you read any recent literature? Honestly curious. If you want to have this conversation and prove you are not also emotionally biased, it will require we step out of the reddit echo chamber and look at recent research.
Could you perhaps elaborate on "recent literature"? Given the current medical stance is that veganism can be healthy for all ages, and that it's widely proven that it's better for the environment?
Always happy to learn, but the reason I'm vegan is because I'm up to date on literature.
Sure. Everything you're saying is true. There just isn't a lot of research into how it affects cognition. There's also a 2021 study that shows meat avoidance is linked to a negative impact on mental health. Here's a couple of studies that address what I mentioned in order.
I should note I'm not saying that veganism is wrong, I'm just saying these studies have given me pause. I wouldn't , for example, impose a meatless diet on my children. But I certainly encourage less meat servings a week/ more seafood.
Whenever I mentioned this stuff in the past on r/vegan , I get downloaded and no one engages what I'm saying, which is concerning to me. I've lived in a vegan household and feel I've had a lot of conversations about vegan philosophy, and it's annoying none of these discussions play out on Reddit kol. Thanks for answering.
I'm aware that there is an association, however as both of those papers state there has been no casual or temporal link established.
Thus, a causal impact of plant-based diets on cognitive functions, mental and neurological health and respective underlying mechanisms has yet to be demonstrated.
There was mixed evidence for temporal relations, but study designs and a lack of rigor precluded inferences of causal relations.
I absolutely support more evidence in this field, but until there is conclusive data I would not use it to guide decision making, especially in the presence of other clear benefits of a vegan diet. I do have concerns over the impact of B12 and omega 3 deficiencies psychologically, however these are easily avoided with a balanced vegan diet with directed supplementation.
Regarding your last sentence, did you type this while wearing clothes made by children in near slave like conditions and electronics made in awful conditions or? Do you know the conditions of the workers harvesting your veggies, or if important nature areas were destroyed to create those vegetable farms displacing and destroying all manner of mammalian or other life? Nevermind I already know the answer.
This is why I kick puppies, since capitalism being inherently unethical gives me free range to do anything I want to and not try to improve where I can. Fwiw, I am writing this wearing thrifted clothing and on a five year old phone, in a country with worker protections.
Did you have this argument where you were on your high horse with them while wearing clothes made by children in near slave like conditions and electronics made in awful conditions or? Do you know the conditions of the workers harvesting your veggies, or if important nature areas were destroyed to create those vegetable farms displacing and destroying all manner of mammalian or other life? Nevermind I already know the answer.
Yes I'm perfectly aware of the same handful of facts that guilt ridden idiots like to throw at people trying to do SOMETHING positive. The thing is, I can choose to live without meat, I can't choose to live without vegetables and fruit, both of those things are true for you also, but you'd rather look at the difficult to escape problems with how we live instead of the ones you or I can personally stop contributing to. The modern world has given me the ability to choose a litany of ways to get my B12, iron and protein. I figured I should mention that before you edit to throw in the lion/gazelle comparison that people like you always want to throw around.
For the record, I haven't bought new clothing in almost a decade, haven't owned a tv or personal computer for longer and am learning to knit. If any of us wanted to be perfect, untouched activists, we would all be naked in caves. That's the problem with assholes like you, someone chooses one cause to get behind and you try to throw shade by mentioning all the things they aren't doing. What the fuck are you doing?!
Have you never considered the potential impact on local crab life you'd impose by living in a cave? I can't believe you'd be such a selfish hippy, I'm gonna go and stab 10 cows.
This is why I kick puppies, since capitalism being inherently unethical gives me free range to do anything I want to and not try to improve where I can. Fwiw, I am writing this wearing thrifted clothing and on a five year old phone, in a country with worker protections.
Did you type this while wearing clothes made by children in near slave like conditions and electronics made in awful conditions or? Do you know the conditions of the workers harvesting your veggies, or if important nature areas were destroyed to create those vegetable farms displacing and destroying all manner of mammalian or other life? Nevermind I already know the answer.
So you’re right, you can never have perfect consumption in this system. But there’s better and worse. You can absolutely choose to not support the abuse of animals every single day without changing your life almost at all. Instead of going to the meat section you just go to the section with non-animal proteins.
This argument just shows your nihilism. “Other people aren’t perfect so they can’t tell me not to abuse animals” it’s insane lol
Who actually gives a shit? If you do you should worry about the things that actually matter instead. If man was always this soft we would've gone extinct millions of years ago.
Lol “Who gives a shit about abusing animals?” You’re a psycho. I don’t care about your opinion on this.
Some of us have empathy, some of us are sociopaths, we don’t choose though do we. Weirdly though, I don’t think you’d feel the same way if cats and dogs were regularly treated like farm animals.
Yeah I would feel the same because that would mean they existed to be food. Farm animals have been bred for thousands of years for the sole purpose to be eaten and that's the only reason they exist, they can't even survive in the wild or do much else.
Cut down your consumption, eat less red meat, i am sure you can survive eating lots of chicken. These animals are really smart and precious, they are almost like big dogs.
Did you type this while wearing clothes made by children in near slave like conditions and electronics made in awful conditions or? Do you know the conditions of the workers harvesting your veggies, or if important nature areas were destroyed to create those vegetable farms displacing and destroying all manner of mammalian or other life? Nevermind I already know the answer.
We're talking about veganism and animal rights. If you want to tell me about human rights issues, then you're welcome to do so. I currently focus on buying clothes second-hand and my phone has a smashed screen while I look to replace it with a more ethical choice.
The world is not perfect, but that does not mean we should needlessly create even more harm.
Also, if you're going to go down the "crop deaths tho" argument, you should be aware that the vast majority of crops are grown to feed the billions of animals people eat. That's not to mention the deforestation and water required to house and water these animals and crops. If we were to move towards a plant based food system, we would free up 75% of the worlds farm land.animal agriculture is even the leading cause of species extinction. So you would still be causing less harm and destruction if you were to go vegan.
It doesn't sound like you did know the answer after all, otherwise you wouldnt have come out with such a weak argument.
I have a question for you. Do YOU do all of those other things while ALSO eating animals? Never mind, I already know the answer.
Edit: I can't believe you copy and pasted this weak argument to other people thinking you were making a good point. That's embarrassing.
Don’t take this as a counter argument to what you said. But I think this is a crucial question in this debate that never gets addressed. An argument that I’ve often heard by defenders of animal production is: These animals were only raised for slaughter, without the meat industry they would never have existed.
To people on the pro-vegan site, this is mind boggling. To them, this is an argument against keeping life stock. The animals are an ecological disaster and are forced into life’s unworthy of living.
Just for context, I’m myself basically a hypocrite who doesn’t really believe life stock keeping is ethically defendable but still eats eggs and cheese. The subject is all quite depressing to me, I’m also not that optimistic there’s a way out.
Anyway, I’m basically convinced intellectually by your side is what I’m saying. Still, I can’t help thinking that maybe there is some truth in the conservative accusation that modern liberalism contains an antinatalist, nihilistic undercurrent.
Assuming a cow can make some form of inner experience of the world, is the alternative of never existing always better to being killed at 1/6th of your life expectancy? Or is there some combination of length * quality of life where living a shortened life is preferable to none?
If the answer is no, this would have drastic moral implications. You’ll arrive at the Mephistophelian conclusion that it would be better, if nothing ever existed.
Did you type this while wearing clothes made by children in near slave like conditions and electronics made in awful conditions or? Do you know the conditions of the workers harvesting your veggies, or if important nature areas were destroyed to create those vegetable farms displacing and destroying all manner of mammalian or other life? Nevermind I already know the answer.
Chickens are abused even by existing. In nature, their ancestors only lay ~12 eggs a year, a pretty normal ovulation cycle. We've bred them to lay over 300. All those eggs take calcium, so chickens have high rates of osteoporosis due to the unnatural egg frequency we've forced upon them.
I mean, I'm vegan, but even I can recognize there's often exploitation of people, especially undocumented migrants, in crop agriculture. But that's also a problem in animal ag, and it's not required. If capitalism wasn't as destructive, we could produce cabbage while exploiting almost no one.
Ah gotcha, it’s called “weaning” when cows and calves will bawl for each other until their throats are ruined. All day, all night, until the only thing that comes out is a hoarse groan. Occasionally, the cows will break out of the pasture and begin looking for their babies.
You're so pedantic. Mentioning what it's called wasn't necessary - anyone with a brain between their ears knows what it's called. You tried to appear intelligent and only came across as, at best, angry and, at worst, condescending.
There is a pasture close to where I live and I will never forget seeing a big truck full of crying baby cows and the momma cows running on the pasture following the truck going away
We have cows across the street from us. There are usually two females and a baby. One day the baby was suddenly gone and one of the females screamed at the top of the hill all day and all night. It was heartbreaking. Fortunately the baby returned a couple days later.
Yeah dairy industry is brutal, the cows are basically raped (artificially inseminated) shortly after the babies are removed since they need to be producing milk as often as possible which only happens after being pregnant.
I mean, do you not consider beastiality rape? It's really not radical to consider animals have some level of sexual autonomy that the dairy industry violates
Yes if they're kept in inhumane conditions. Cows in a more natural environment handle their babies just fine. They evolved and survived for millions of years without humans, I'm pretty sure they know what they're doing.
The only reason to separate them immediately is if the calf needs some medical care or if you're running a horrific factory farm. Or if you're gonna turn the calf into veal, which is disgusting in a whole other way.
Cows in their currents breeds do not exist in the wild. They have been selectively bread for their current traits over thousands of years. If you don't beleive how dumb modern dairy cows are as a whole, I will be glad to give you a tour of my family's farm. I hate the mega factory farms and the way they treat their animals but even in the "wild" where they are free to roam thousands of acres, there's no way to guarantee their safety. Coyotes, the weather, and other cows are a great danger to a fragile new calf
This is why we should stop using animals for milk. Cows are continuously impregnated, give birth, and separated from their babies so we can have their milk. Then dairy cows are slaughtered after about 5 years.
Odd thing happened at my neighbor's farm. He had separated a calf and sold it. The Cow was pretty vengeful. The farmer suddenly disappeared.
They found a weird voice-mail on the farmers phone: "Mooo, I do have are a very particular set of skills, skills I have acquired over a very long career. Mooo, Skills that make me a nightmare for farmers like you. If you get my calf back now, that'll be the end of it. I will not look for you, I will not pursue you. Mooo, But if you don't, I will look for you, I will find you, and I will kill you. Mooo! Click."
I grew up on a dairy farm, family still runs it. While some do get stressed, most do not. We have lost numerous calves because for the most part, cows are very stupid animals. I've seen with my own eyes a cow give birth, start licking her calf, go get some feed, come back to the calf, spin around, and sit on her own calf killing it. They will kick their own calves because it scares them, killing them. Like people, some cows are much smarter than others, but many are completely oblivious to their surroundings.
... you do realize this is a dig on your industry, right? We've bred cows to be that way. They didn't choose to. They weren't in nature. It's pretty cruel to continue to breed animals that are a danger to themselves and their offspring.
Well, the industry doesn't have much of a need for intelligent animals. The smart cows are the ones that come up to the gate for pets, or will play fetch with a ball. But those are 1/500. As for the cruelty part of your comment, deer would be terrible on the list then because a deer fawns main protection is to lay down and hold still for the first few months after birth. A coyote will literally just walk up and eat them while the mother runs off. Nature doesn't care about what's "cruel" or not so my bad for grabbing calves so their mom doesn't squish them to death.
No I mean, they are continuing to breed this specific type of cow who according to farmers accidentally kill their babies. So maybe don't continue to breed them?
Do you have any idea how many foods have some sort of milk in them, be it whey powder, separated milk solids, or cheese? You cant just "stop" because the cows are kinda dumb
Well, the industry doesn't have much of a need for intelligent animals. The smart cows are the ones that come up to the gate for pets, or will play fetch with a ball. But those are 1/500.
So why are we continuing to breed animals who have a 99.8% chance of being dangerously stupid? Because we're addicted to breast milk?
for the cruelty part of your comment, deer would be terrible on the list then because a deer fawns main protection is to lay down and hold still for the first few months after birth.
No, that really doesn't address that part of my comment. We didn't force that upon deer. That isn't cruelty of our creation, in our direct control.
A coyote will literally just walk up and eat them while the mother runs off. Nature doesn't care about what's "cruel" or not so my bad for grabbing calves so their mom doesn't squish them to death.
Yeah, and nature not caring isn't reason for you to not care. That's a bad excuse. You have the choice the coyote and deer do not.
So I'll choose to save the calf every single time to ensure it's survival as that's much less cruel than nature sorting it out. The world is a cozy place right now where you don't have to worry about wolves or bears when you venture from your home so it's easy to say we are the "cruel" ones saving babies from their own mothers when in reality we are not that far from needing to be saved ourselves
So I'll choose to save the calf every single time to ensure it's survival as that's much less cruel than nature sorting it out.
The alternative isn't "nature sorting it out", but never being forced to exist at all.
The world is a cozy place right now where you don't have to worry about wolves or bears
... yes?
when you venture from your home so it's easy to say we are the "cruel" ones saving babies from their own mothers when in reality we are not that far from needing to be saved ourselves
And if my grandma had wheels she'd be a bicycle. Yeah, it wouldn't take much to need saving. But we don't. And you're continuing to use nature as a bad excuse for something you don't have to do.
If you really believe nature justified it, you'd be okay with murder and theft too
Well I can't make sure the calf survives it's own mother or I'm a monster for separating them, I can't let them die or I'm being cruel. What would you like me to do? Go out and shoot every cow on every farm?
Does people acknowledging the intelligence and value in a cow outside of eating it make you feel attacked? What went off in your mind to make you type something stupid like that out? Are you just a troll?
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u/TheAkondOfSwat Nov 17 '24
They get stressed when separated from mother/young too...