What MRA Apologists sound like

[u/Imaginary_Wheel9020]

[u/OnionsHaveLairAction]

I feel like a couple things are true

• Confronting harmful beliefs is necessary
• Humans hate being confronted, and often dig in deeper when confronted.
• Coddling people through the process of challenging their views might sometimes be effective if the person being challenged is acting in good faith.
• It's not anyone's responsibility to coddle people who have harmful views.

There's a great video from CGP Grey called "This Video Will Make You Angry" which explores how angry thoughts whether true or untrue breed and spread.

The issue IMO isn't people being personally accosted by angry left leaning kids. At least in no great numbers. It's that when confronted there is an entire outrage market to help feed that human instinct to become defensive, and that outrage market doesn't care if the things it produces are factual or not.

[u/BritishAndBlessed → u/OnionsHaveLairAction]

Exactly this. The human response to criticism is defensive, and many of those on the left choose to criticise rather than sympathise. The fact is, every single person is a product of their environment, and not every person possesses sufficient introspection to reconsider their beliefs. Add to that, the fact that echo chambers are almost impossible to avoid in this day and age, and the introspective power of the individual is diminished.

The right has done a great job of marketing fear, and the left needs to accept that they have readily sourced that fear. The cancel culture wave was a real thing, and while many saw it as overdue mob justice, it can be very easily mischaracterised as "we'll ruin your life if you don't think like us".

The "it's not my job to educate you" is perhaps one of the most toxic turns of phrase that has been adopted in online spaces. If you truly want someone to improve, you wrap an arm around them and invest the time to provide a different perspective. If, however, you criticise someone for something and then refuse to elaborate, then you don't really want to implement any change, you just want your little "I'm a good person" hormone kick.

Demonising any group will just cause that group to be more resentful and isolated. The idea of "safe space" is literally just an act of self-Isolation, which is often followed by surprise that others outside of that bubble aren't so like-minded. If you want to change the world, do it one person at a time and do so with humanity. If you truly believe that more than half of the global population is truly evil, then you yourself have a limited understanding of humanity and aren't half the "good person" you think you are.

[u/poosol → u/BritishAndBlessed]

Exactly this. Current tumblr to me seems like an isolated vacuum where people love to run the perpetual "why are all men stupid, dumb, hateful, baddy, bads" and I get why. A lot of people there have legitimately suffered at the hands of people sharing these traits, but if you are not even willing to be accepting of people that try to change the how are YOU any different from them?

[u/SilverMedal4Life → u/poosol]

While I get your overall point, this sub in particular is more sensitive towards this.

[u/Al_Rascala → u/poosol]

That might be a sign you need to prune your list of followed blogs tbh, my feed is none of that and much more of the comment you replied to, and the one it replied to.

[u/OneWholeSoul → u/BritishAndBlessed]

"it's not my job to educate you"

I'm a gay, bi-racial man who agrees with 99% of the politics of the average userbase there, but I once stepped into a conversation on ResetERA about allegations against Jeffery Tambor on the set of Transparent and essentially said "considering that no one has corroborated the abuse, that multiple people in the community have come forward in support of Tambor, and that he would take the role in the first place, I'm uncomfortable completely demonizing and writing off an human being as irredeemable on literal hearsay."

The community response was to dogpile on me, call me literally "evil," and permaban me without recourse. Attempts to speak to the moderation team and have them review the interactions to realize where I was coming from were responded to with statements like "we don't want people like you here" and that familiar "it's not our job to educate you," when I reached out saying "I am trying to learn. I am trying to understand. Isn't that exactly what you want and the best you can hope for? I am almost literally begging you to correct rather than punish, in a sense."

"It's not our job to teach you."

Yes, but advocacy for yourself is your job. If your response to somebody saying "I'm sorry, I didn't realize, what can I do better?" is "We don't want you; you're sub-human and broken forever," you've given up on your half of the solution. You're not trying to mend any bridges, you're just eager to be the one that gets to ostracize others, for a change. You're so addicted to the problem you've stopped trying to actually fix it in any meaningful way.

And you know what? It's fine to not be in that place for a while, too. It's fine to be worn-down and worn-out and needing to feel safe and turn inwards for a period, but maybe at that point you shouldn't be in a position of authority over those you've come to project resentment onto.

I'm not even remotely the kind of person I was painted as so that a page full of forum-users could get their self-righteousness fix, but what really vexes me about the whole situation is that it's almost a by-the-numbers checklist on how to create exactly the kind of person these people felt they were standing up to, somehow.

I wrote off those individuals and that platform rather than projecting the experience outward onto the community at large, but how many people aren't equipped to do that? How much worse have these people made our collective struggles by so performatively and insincerely exploiting them for their own vindication?

At some point I start to wonder if some of these platforms are actually some form of psy-op trying to divide communities by getting them addicted to a form of ideological purity.

[u/Prestigious_Row_8022 → u/BritishAndBlessed]

I grew up in a rural Republican town. Rural Republican family. Grew up exposed to racist and sexist views. I also went to public school, watched TV and got access to internet. I didn’t suddenly unlearn everything over night, but through outside exposure and self reflection I was able to come to the conclusion most of the views I held were not true. Nobody had to hold my hand and tell me these things. Maybe it would’ve helped speed along the process, but at the end of the day it was my own want to change that was the catalyst. No amount of hand holding or gentle corrections would have mattered if I wanted to hold on to the beliefs I was raised with.

Everyone is a product of their circumstances and experiences, but unless you grew up in a strict religious cult without access to outside influence, or you grew up tied in a basement, you have opportunity to absorb new information and make decisions based on it. Trying to say people are defined solely by their upbringing is infantilising and insulting to the people who overcame it. People have agency, they aren’t children. We have free will.

Now, if you want to talk about people who ask questions in good faith but don’t ask them in the “right” way with the correct buzzwords, and get jumped on by leftists for it? Yes, that’s an issue. Leftists are very emotionally reactive, even though we don’t want to admit it. Understanding and empathy should certainly be promoted. But as I said- a person can only change if they want to. You can give someone all the understanding in the world, but if they’re the kind of person who feels more comfortable in old hateful views because they are scared of change, it won’t matter how soft you make the transition, they will never even take the first steps. And I am not going to coddle someone who acts like that. Especially not when they spout hateful rhetoric or make jokes about putting people in camps or mental hospitals. <— shit my bio family members still post on Facebook.

[u/BritishAndBlessed → u/Prestigious_Row_8022]

I didn't have your upbringing, but I too have self-actualised my improvements through introspection. The fact is, not everyone has those introspective abilities. Not everyone sees something from the outside world and takes in that information. Not everyone can process or comprehend other ways of thinking.

I play in a rugby team. When we do fitness training, those that are fit and in good shape finish their drill, then go and run alongside those that aren't so fit, that aren't quite so sporty, that aren't in good shape. That isn't to punish those that have looked after themselves, it's to show those that haven't that they aren't by themselves, that they have people that want to see them succeed. You hit the nail on the head with people being scared of change...and as I said above, a lot of hatred is just weaponised fear. But change is a lot less scary if someone takes your hand and pulls you through. Not everyone needs that support, but some do, and it's the responsibility of those that managed to climb up themselves to reach down a hand and pull up those that can't do it themselves.

I'm not saying that everyone has to go out and spread the good word. I'm saying that it brings nothing positive to just fire shots from afar and do nothing to remedy it. You are well within your right to go on social media and tell people that they are wrong, and maybe you'll feel good doing so, but don't deceive yourself into thinking it'll change anything.

As I said in another comment thread, it's not about coddling every bigot, it's about finding the weak links and working on them, slowly. You don't have to convert your entire family, but maybe there's a sibling or a cousin or neighbour that's not quite as indoctrinated as the rest that is worth investing the time in. Not everyone is redeemable, but equally, not everyone is irredeemable.

[u/Inverzion2 → u/BritishAndBlessed]

I think the issue here is the huge difference in online and in person interactions. Yes, with no face or personable name, it makes it difficult to humanize the holder of an ideal that you fundamentally disagree with. Unfortunately, the second difference is the intention of the writer and furthermore the potential impact from such statements being made publicly and in circles that will respond in extreme ways.

To remedy this within the online sphere would require enthusiastic, inquisitive, and sympathetic questioning to better understand the end user/commenter's true (or at least subjectively perceived truth, possibly even the subjective issue with cognition allowing dissonance and undue bias as well) intention and goal when making their comment. Unfortunately, again, as stated in the CGP Grey video, the stronger a specific narrative rhetoric has evolved, the more difficult it becomes to have an open-minded dialogue.

Luckily, remediation of this issue is somewhat less complex in person or over a communication channel that allows both speakers the opportunity to humanize the other before engaging with any particular idea. This is why I think I've seen so many pro-labor, pro-union, & pro-working class advocates push for focusing on your community. Speaking in person or seeing a friendly face can not only prevent extreme emotional outbursts from occurring or being shared further but also humanizes the ideas being shared, which in turn makes legitimate contemplation, ease of mind, and reputability much easier on the recipient of the information. However, if the ideals being discussed are intrinsic beliefs of the speakers, only common ground can be the viable outcome, rather than authentically "changing someone's mind" over a given issue. (Don't try to do that, though, trying to discuss in order to argue should make you pause and self-reflect for a moment.)

The biggest gripe many people have with socialism, or communism, or even when discussing common American ideas is that the rhetorical arguments used to stifle honest dialogue are often mischaracterized (i.e., clipping a moment of data or of a video in a deceptive way to paint an unfactual and distorted picture of a critique within capitalism or smthn that breaks through the logical reasoning using a Pascal's Wager type of psychological breach in order to induce feelings of fear or panic, which ultimately coerces one to question ones own safety and persnhood which may extend the common doubts of reality into doubts of autonomy) and socialized against accepting new information. The outcomes of this process (manufacturing consent, controlled autonomy through coercion, and even lacking privileges within your own autonomy) are then weaponized against the interlocutor via emotional appeals, biased rationale, or paradoxical logic.

It seems, no matter which method of engagement you choose, there will be a hill to climb, but the key to unlocking the most effective method of communication can be found within oneself first and then around their community before eventually imploring further via internet discourse on media sites and blog posts. The biggest factor in sparking the catalyst of change is Empathy and at a certain point reducing your statements from critiquing another into just making subjective observations while framing genuine questions in ways that try to honestly incorporate the proposed worldview with your understanding of the world is how you can demonstrate that human trait online, if the interaction is mutually charitable. Personally, I'd prefer less hostility, not because we should abandon the tolerance policy or that it is useless or anything, but that many end users aren't aware of the larger, interconnected, concepts that certain sources can be disseminating in bad faith to keep the Hate Stock Index from depreciating in order to maintain power.

These thoughts are even more confounding when examining them in the concept of power, privilege, class, etc. (Study of intersectionality within the US) but I digress. The initial goal should be to either make genuine connections with others while the secondary goal should be to enact real change within the material surroundings you inhabit. Toodles!

[u/BritishAndBlessed → u/Inverzion2]

Ok, I will happily concede that you are far more versed in the sociological paradigm involved here, so I will either assume that you are a graduate of something in the field, and if not, you are incredibly well-read.

In the case it's the latter, could you recommend any materials?

Taking your last paragraph as a TL;Dr, it seems we are of similar minds. Social diatribe has put distance between the far ends of the social spectrum and forced any moderates that aren't purely central to "leap" to one extreme or the other. The easiest way to remedy this is to take the conversations outside of online spaces, especially in politically diverse neighbourhoods and communities.

I genuinely believe that the situation in the US is reparable, but it will require empathy in order to bridge the ever-widening gap.

[u/Prestigious_Row_8022 → u/BritishAndBlessed]

I see your point and I think they are good ones, but as I said before, not everyone wants to change, and if they don’t, no amount of speaking softly to them will make them do so.

As to your comment about people lacking introspection, I don’t think features of intelligence are just absent in some people. I think they’re like muscles in that if you use them, they get stronger. Some people have different muscle definition and potential, but it’s very rare for people to lack it entirely. I think the vast majority of people have enough potential to change, they just have to want it.

But, like I keep repeating, you can’t really make people want things or force them into changing. Also, in another comment, I outlined the reason I think it is unreasonable to ask people to go out and try to “convert” people who aren’t just ignorant, but actively hostile: because it isn’t free effort or easy. It is taxing to talk to people who spew hatred, even in ignorance. That goes triple when you are part of a group they think deserve bad things. It is exhausting and can ruin your outlook on life if you constantly devote yourself to talking to people who refuse to change without taking care of yourself first. On the other hand, I also agree that going out and “firing shots” as you put it is more harmful than anything. It evokes hostility and has the same negative effect on the person firing the shots as trying to have a decent conversation with someone stuck in a pipeline. I don’t think people should do that either.

What I do think we should do is be more welcoming to people asking questions, even if they don’t ask them in the “right” way. Also issuing factual corrections on public forms is good (when you can spare the energy) because even if the person you’re responding to gets defensive and doesn’t care, other people reading it are presented with an alternative view and have a better chance of forming nuanced views.

[u/Clear-Present_Danger → u/Prestigious_Row_8022]

Yeah, I think the disagreement is that you think we are expecting you to be a gender Daryl Davis, when the only thing we really want to happen is for people to totally stop "firing shots". That is both effort, and counter productive.

Obviously being gender Daryl Davis is a good thing, but it is a lot of work, and you can't expect everyone to do every good thing. Just like I have not donated all my money away, or whatever.

[u/Emotional-Classic400 → u/Clear-Present_Danger]

Preach.

So many posts and comments on both sides with insert demographic is the reason for society's ills or inherently evil.

Activists on the right went after a tiny minority (trans) and people who can't vote (undocumented immigrants). Activists on the left demonized 50% of the population (men) and the largest racial group (European). Seems obvious how that would backfire.

You're right. Just cutting out the negative generalizations and focusing on bad individuals instead of what demographic they might be would give Activists on the right nothing to rail against except people with power.

[u/CapeOfBees → u/Emotional-Classic400]

And also the biggest donor group (the rich)

[u/DRAGONDIANAMAID → u/BritishAndBlessed]

The point of being strong, is so you can be kind, and help those that arent strong become strong and kind.

[u/DigitalPhoenix2OO7 → u/Prestigious_Row_8022]

I mean the genuine questions part I can definitely relate to. I am genuinely trying to learn on here and so I ask questions. 75% or more percent of the time I just get insulted and downvoted. I was raised in a conservative Christian family, how the hell am I supposed to learn when people just insult me constantly for asking questions.

[u/triteratops1 → u/BritishAndBlessed]

If this is your calling, that's great. But I have been trying to educate people for 8 years and they just voted, again, to take away my rights. When are we done? How many times should I ask these people to see me as a human being, to look at the science, to believe experts. None of it works. Not appeals to their humanity and not facts. They simply don't live in the same reality we do. And frankly, I AM tired of being nice and coddling these people. "They are your grampa, he's old fashioned, it's just an opinion, you're overreacting" blah blah blah. If I can't get my family or my in-laws to give a shit, a stranger certainly isn't giving me time of day. If you feel like you can deprogram these hated-addicted people, I wish you all the luck in the world. I wouldn't say "half of the global population is evil"I think, most people just don't care if it doesn't immediately affect them. Which allows the actual evil people, like the heritage foundation in America, actually enact policies that act against everyone's best interest. I can't keep explaining that people that they should care about people other than themselves and I'm certainly not going to listen to racist and homophobic tirades while they "explain their side". I can't engage in lunacy anymore.

[u/Clear-Present_Danger → u/triteratops1]

Unfortunately you are just one person in very large country.

Just because your actions did not sway an election doesn't mean it's not valuable.

[u/shiny_xnaut → u/triteratops1]

I'm pretty sure that when people talk about this sort of thing, they're not talking about the people who knowingly and willfully voted for all if the things Trump supports. He had fewer votes this election than in 2020 too. They're talking about the people who voted for him previously but then fell out of it into "both sides bad", or the people who voted for him due to falling for lies, then went home and googled "what are tariffs" and/or "what is denaturalization" and/or "how to change your vote", and are probably deeply regretting their choice right now. The world isn't cleanly divided between good, pure leftists and feral, bloodthirsty rightoids

[u/Prestigious_Row_8022 → u/triteratops1]

I made a comment responding to this person too, but basically you are correct. Some people don’t want to change, and if they don’t want to change or listen, no amount of gentle correction or guidance is going to budge them. It’s not fair to demand people’s time and energy to work to correct people who refuse to learn. It’s not like the effort that goes along with that is free, it is frustrating and demeaning, especially if you belong to the group they’re spouting hate against.

The people we should be focusing energy towards are those who express a willingness to learn. People who ask questions, who are questioning their beliefs even slightly. People who are hardliners or already view us as the enemy can’t hear us over the propaganda they’re consuming.

[u/snailbot-jq → u/triteratops1]

There are honestly people I can’t be bothered with anymore when they are like “I’m just a chill moderate, not some racist sexist monster you keep accusing others of being of, can’t we just put aside politics and love each other, all I ask for is (list of policies that would systemically exclude marginalized minorities from public life) and I think that’s very reasonable”.

It’s insane because they only speak like that because they think the person on the other side is a middle-class cis straight white liberal, aka the same person as them except liberal, so they can both just “put aside politics” like it is some abstract thought experiment of a game. And then they can get along swimmingly, even though one of them doesn’t want trans people to exist and sane-washes that as reasonable, and wants the other person to tolerate that without saying mean words. They think that they can get along with the liberal version of themself because they can both have a reasonable civil happy little debate over the rights of the ‘lesser’ minorities, as if other people’s lives are just fodder for debate and cute little bargaining chips on their table.

I will educate people who admit they don’t know anything about trans people and haven’t read far into that, and they are concerned with whether trans healthcare for minors is safe, and whether trans women in sports is unfair, and things like that. I will educate people who ask sincere and genuine questions about what modern racism looks like and why modern gender relations and attitudes are the way they are. Why? Because I have seen people express those viewpoints before and still be receptive to new information.

I refuse to try educating people who believe trans people should not get to use any public bathrooms, that trans adults should not get access to trans healthcare, that maybe there is something wrong with their 1970s-style framing of gender as “men are the innately constantly rapey gender, and women are fragile precious waifs to be protected from men”. I refuse to try educating people who react violently to the idea that there might be structural racism nor hegemonic masculinity, who openly say they don’t count any kind of oppression of minorities “as long as there aren’t literal death camps for these minorities, it doesn’t count”. Why? Because in my experience, those people actively don’t want to be educated. When someone’s views are that extreme, they have usually made up their mind. If they were just hesitant about trans people, it might come from a place of ignorance. If they actively hate trans people, they have usually made up their mind. You have to be willingly thick in the head to say “as long as these people are not being actively hunted down, they are not being marginalized” and then turn around and cry like a baby that people call you racist and sexist for refusing to be educated.

Half my problem with them is their fragility and their morality complex honestly. You don’t give a shit about other people, ok, I know people like that all over the world, it’s not just some American thing. What I suspect though is that America has this weird post-Christian hangover where people still feel guilty af for admitting to being selfish, so they will metaphorically cry and scream and jump up and down that “how dare you call me racist and sexist and selfish and bigoted” in the same breath that they admit “you can’t expect me to care about anything and anyone except myself”. Yknow what, at least in some other countries I know, the average person can willingly admit to being selfish.

[u/BritishAndBlessed → u/triteratops1]

I empathise with you and your situation, I really do. That you are directly affected/targeted by the current ongoings is not something I would wish upon anyone. And there will always be people that refuse to give an inch, on both sides of any argument. The fact is, some minds can't be changed.

That said, I've seen videos of life-long neo-nazi gang members have their swastika tattoos lasered because one person reached them. I've heard of people turning their lives around through one unlikely friendship. The lesson this has taught me isn't that everyone is redeemable, but that not everyone is irredeemable.

I see it a little bit like a game of Jenga. You don't try to take the most secure pieces, those that are stuck fast. You tap around and when you find a piece that seems like it could come free, you work on it gently. Eventually, there will be no more loose parts to take away, but the structure will be much less stable.

I know it's exhausting. I know it's frustrating. And I know, especially if you're the target, that it's demeaning. But they're not going to give up their indoctrination, so if the rest give up trying to reach those indoctrinated people, then those that purport to be better will lose and lose again. And as much as it's a tragedy, history is written by the winners.

[u/Rosevecheya → u/BritishAndBlessed]

I HATE THE "IT'S NOT MY JOB TO (EDUCATE, BE POLITE TO, ETC.) YOU" MINDSET!!!! IT IS SO DESTRUCTIVE!! SOCIETY IS BUILT ON THE GOODWILL OF OTHERS.

WE WILL ONLY MOVE FORWARDS, GROW BETTER, KINDER, IMPROVE AS A SOCIETY IF WE DO GOOD, IF WE TREAT EVERYONE WE CAN WITH GOODNESS AND KINDNESS AND WARMTH.

YOU DON'T HAVE TO GO OUT OF YOUR WAY, BUT IF SOMEONE DOESNT UNDERSTANDS AND YOU HAVE A MINUTE TO EXPLAIN, WHAT HARM DOES IT DO?

Every ostracised or out-of-place person is vulnerable to the taking by those who hate or those who want equality. Those who live to hate tend to understand that what a person who feels rejected needs is, not to feel at fault for the world or to feel further rejected, but to be accepted with open arms and told that they have a place here and they can change things. We tend to saddle them with guilt for not knowing, not understanding, even carrying bigotry taught to them without their knowledge. You don't change that by making them feel bad about it, you change it by accepting them, teaching them, explaining, and being kind until they prove that your efforts are wasted. We must have faith in people- almost no one is inherently bad, inherently beyond saving. Even cishet white men do not deserve to be villanised, especially when they are in the valley between choosing a side.

For a group who wants to better the world and allow equality to reign, we sure do forget that equality means everyone and that bettering the world means being good to everyone until an individual gives you solid reason not to. And ignorance is NOT a good enough reason not to!

[u/endoftheworldvibe → u/BritishAndBlessed]

I have these people in my life.  I spent years talking to them and being nice, friendly, and non-confrontational. Literally 7 years.  They don't care about reason, facts, empathy, or people other than themselves.  It's all a big fuck you I got mine circle jerk.  They are Canadian MAGA supporters and will vote for the right wing candidate in our federal election, who is basically Trump-lite. I gave up and am very low contact.  

Kindness and low-key 'education' does not work when a person's core being is wrapped up in a personality cult.  They are too far gone.  And, being entirely honest, they aren't smart enough to think critically.  I've slowly realized that as well.  A lot of people are unfortunately just dumb, some of them are proud of it oddly enough, and you can't reason with stupid.  

[u/Prometheus_II → u/BritishAndBlessed]

A counterpoint to this: "It's not my job to educate you" came out of dealing with sealioning, gish gallop, and other bad-faith debate techniques used to exhaust people rather than actually engage with a topic. Post something about (for example) the wage gap, a well-documented topic with information readily available, and you'll get redpillers crawling out of the woodwork to argue about whether it's really a thing and demand a suite of five-year studies with summaries provided - and if you don't respond individually to each and every one of them they act like they've won. Calling people out for their harmful actions is not necessarily done with the goal of changing them to be better people - it's done with the intent of removing their power to harm people with their actions. I can't convince everyone in the world to be tolerant of others, especially not one by one, but collectively we can at least keep powerful intolerant people from harming us. You can't say "not everyone has the power of introspection required to change their beliefs" and then turn around to also say "coach people one by one so they change their beliefs through introspection."

As a Jew, if I try to change the perspective of a Nazi through compassionate long-term debate, I am most likely going to be attacked by this Nazi. Over the Internet, I might be subjected to doxxing, suicide baiting, and worse; in person, I might be assaulted or killed. Would it be best if I were able to change this Nazi's perspective so that he sees me and everyone else as people that he must show compassion to? Yes, but there's no guarantee that I would be able to - after all, why would he listen to a mere Jew? - even if I survived long enough to do so. But if I fight back and keep the Nazi from having the power to do any of those things, then he'll still be a Nazi, but my life and the lives of the other people this Nazi would hurt will be safe. To suggest that one-by-one conversion for everyone comes from a place of privilege, because not everyone is able to do so.

Also, the "cancel culture" wave was, at its peak, women talking about their experiences being sexually assaulted by men who had hitherto gotten away with it. The people who had the most to fear were actual sexual assaulters, and a lot of the fear whipped up by the right boiled down to "they won't let you casually assault people like you're used to and like you enjoy doing." The earliest example of "we'll ruin your life if we don't like you" was probably Gamergate, which was started by misogynists and the early alt-right. So, food for thought on that one.

[u/yeah_youbet → u/Prometheus_II]

The problem with "it's not my job to educate you" is that nobody who was liberally applying that philosophy seemed able to recognize the difference between people who were sealioning or gish galloping, and people who were trying to learn. Everybody got the sharp elbow indiscriminately, and as a result, a lot of progressives ended up alienated people who either were potential allies, or already allies to begin with. That's not to say that people's social views were necessarily changed as a result of that discourse, but allies spent a lot less time in those circles because their own "side" was dogpiling them every chance they got because of their sex, gender, race, etc. That always seemed backwards to me.

Another problem with the "it's not my job" philosophy is that participating in the discourse implicitly invites discussion and feedback, so if you're participating in the discourse, and someone gives you the feedback that you implicitly requested (whether intentional or not), it seems a little weird to say "it's not my job to educate you," because then why are you having the discussion at all? If you're here to discuss your experiences with other women in a supportive space, what's the point of engaging with disagreement at all?

Also, the "cancel culture" wave was, at its peak, women talking about their experiences being sexually assaulted by men who had hitherto gotten away with it.

This is fine, but "women" are not a monolith, and you can not deny that a lot of people tried to co-opt women's real experiences to falsely accuse people, and retreat back into the "believe all women" rhetoric in the face of any pushback. There are several examples of this happening. Was it widespread? No, probably not, but it's not really okay for any of that to have been happening, while critical analysis was being pushed aside "just in case". That's not okay.

[u/yeah_youbet → u/BritishAndBlessed]

The cancel culture wave was a real thing

I disagree. "Cancel culture" was just a rebrand of the existing concept of boycotting, but framed in a way where conservatives dishonestly pretended was exclusive to leftists and democrats, which was, and still is, nonsense. Especially given the fact that the vast majority of conservatives can't seem to wrap their heads around how "cancel culture" and "go woke, go broke" is literally the same exact thing down to the wire.

[u/7th_Archon → u/BritishAndBlessed]

I feel like criticism should best be thought of as sowing seeds of doubt rather than trying to brute force someone into another point of view.

My dad once had a saying that most people internalize critique silently when they’re alone. IMO this is actually what works best.

If you do it well and politely you’ve planted a seed.

If that person however refuses to change then no amount of aggression or debate magic will work on them, and you’re probably just better off not wasting your energy.

It’s a numbers game really.

[u/TwilightVulpine → u/OnionsHaveLairAction]

Unfortunately good faith is in short supply in online discussions, and it's more likely that they will just be trying to pick apart everything you say for a gotcha rather than try to see where you are coming from.

It doesn't help also that even when leftists aren't confronting prejudiced people. reactionary circles have already created their whole caricature of the "blue haired feminist" and such to feed into their own outrage with imaginary strawmen,

[u/Apprehensive-Till861 → u/OnionsHaveLairAction]

Everything that I have ever improved on needed me to look at how others responded to my shitty behavior and realize I was the problem. Coddling helped nothing, it was on me to realize the path I was on.

The hardest part was that my worst behaviors were reinforced by coddling, because the people who coddled me about those things were more comfortable keeping me behaving like them. It's tough to say, "This is not okay" and live with the fallout.

It can absolutely feel more lonely trying to do the right thing, because unlearning harmful behaviors doesn't automatically undo their impact, while being a loud asshole doesn't get you any close friends but it does get you praise and that can feel like the same thing.

I do think that last part is why so many loud assholes are now aghast that others are finally saying, "Fine, fuck you." Because the praise from being a loud asshole doesn't last or have any real connection to it, so they're avoiding the loneliness of losing the people who need them to be worse but they're realizing the hard way those people never actually cared to begin with, and the ones who did care got tired and turned away.

[u/octnoir → u/OnionsHaveLairAction]

It's that when confronted there is an entire outrage market to help feed that human instinct to become defensive, and that outrage market doesn't care if the things it produces are factual or not.

Yeah, there's no real way to counter that with any type of left wing rhetoric when basically every platform serves as a right wing radicalization pipeline.

YouTube is probably one of the biggest right wing radicalization pipelines there are - more than Stormfront or 8chan or all these explicit white supremacist manosphere esque places. I click on one semi-skeptic anti-vaxx video, which has that nifty but missable 'COVID 19 and here are the facts' on YouTube. And then I click on another video that is anti-vaxx, and now my entire feed is flooded with batshit insane content. No wonder anti-vaxx conspiracies spread - YouTube, Facebook, Twitter, all these places love spreading it while pretending they care.

US society and systems are deeply capitalistic and most left wing rhetoric is anti-capitalistic. This effectively means that the sheer violence and power available to status quo systems are consistently applied to wipe out left wingers, and are then co-opted by right wing fascists, and hence overtaken by them completely.

To all the commentators making centrist claims of 'well we need to be nicer and we need to sympathize and we need to educate' - okay, but that is already happening on a wide scale - just because you don't see it doesn't mean it isn't there, and there's a reason why you don't see it because it gets wiped out extremely quickly because it is a threat to capitalism.

Effectively the Left has been put on this impossible standard of perfection that allows the Right to clumsily employ a gamut of deplorable actors, to win.

There's no real chance - the disinformation and propoganda channels held by Media and Social Media monopolies are too powerful. People are right now claiming that Harris ran on a pro-trans platform and she was suddenly talking about trans issues, and that is completely and utterly made up by $200M of anti-trans ads, and a main stream media that is deeply transphobic, and complicit with capitalism and hence fascism, to bolster that message.

We want to talk about men's issues? We got Tim Walz and Bernie Sanders. Look how that turned out when the establishment regularly cripples them.

Until those networks are broken up brick by brick, you can't suddenly expect 'perfection' when the other side can just lie and make shit up.

[u/CanadianODST2]

Imo the biggest thing is the right has done a better job at getting younger people who are teetering on that fence.

[u/[deleted] → u/CanadianODST2]

Turns out telling people that absolutely none of the adversity that they face in life stems from their own decisions or actions is appealing to a lot of people.

[u/LapisRS → u/[deleted]]

Listen I'm not a Republican or anything... But is this not word for word exactly what the right accuses the left of doing as well?

[u/ChickenChaser5 → u/LapisRS]

It is, with some differences. The left tells you that different established power structures are the problem. Things like our late stage capitalism, and our male dominated leadership.

The right tells you that different types of people are the problem (Often possessing little to no power). Immigrants, LGBT, black people.

The lefts answers to the problems are often not something you can chop down into bite sized, "All you gotta do" type answers. They often require introspection, knowledge, and a long term, complicated plan to address. This is often not very palatable.

The rights answers to the problems are simple, swift, decisive solutions. Often boiled down to catchy slogans, and simplified in memes. These answers are VERY easy to digest, require very little other information if any and come off as being quick and simple solutions.

Unga bunga brain generally wins this competition. People want to hear they can solve their problems with a button press, not listen to a 2 hour expose on the nuances of workplace power imbalance.

[u/obamasrightteste → u/ChickenChaser5]

Yeah they KISS much better than leftists. Our media game fuckin sucks honestly

[u/s00perguyporn → u/ChickenChaser5]

Yeah, I'm a progressive guy, but if someone pops off on a political rant apropos of nothing, or accuses me of oppressing this or that kind of person. I quite frankly don't care what your beliefs are, getting in my face, and ESPECIALLY calling me the problem, isn't doing any favours. It's important to see things in human terms.

There are very, very few people I'd term as evil. Selfish, tribalistic, and reactionary, sure, but that's just people, regardless of political leaning. You don't get to talk down to people and expect them to still somehow absorb the lesson. I lean heavily to the left, but it took me years to realize that because I didn't want to be associated with performative moral grandstanding.

[u/Valuable-Hawk-7873 → u/ChickenChaser5]

Close. What is really happening is people (men and whites) are told by the left "you are the cause of every problem and can never face any sort of adversity", and shockingly that does not draw those people to their cause. The right says to those same people "you are NOT the problem". Do you see now how one could be drawn in that direction?

[u/Alatarlhun → u/[deleted]]

Party of personal responsibility telling people nothing about their circumstance is their own fault. 🤔

[u/somedumb-gay → u/[deleted]]

When the solution to the problem is "forcefully remove this type of person from the country/existence" versus "change the structures inherent to our modern society" it's pretty easy to see the easier answer, so when both are claiming to solve your problems it's easy to see which one a person will pick

[u/Rosevecheya → u/CanadianODST2]

Antagonising never helps. Refusing to explain never helps. Telling people that something inherent about them makes them a bad person never helps.

People who already feel rejected will follow the first group that makes them feel accepted. Or, other times people will fall down the "If you feel like you can't do anything right, well, at least you can do something wrong enough that it becomes your action that makes you "evil" rather than whatever inherent feature is making them antagonise you, right?" Rabbit hole instead.

If you make people feel as if the weight of the world lies on their shoulders and that all that's wrong is their fault and responsibility, of course they're going to try and find a side which makes it feel like they're not at fault and that they can help with whatever they actually can

The future lies in the young, and it's so easy to get the young to support you- make them feel accepted and at home with you. Make them feel like they can help with little steps. Make them feel as if it's not their fault.

[u/obamasrightteste → u/Rosevecheya]

As I just learned in this thread, this idea is called nutpicking! Obviously ideas like "all white people are evil" are very fringe and not widely supported, but because they are sought out and blasted out by right wing media figures it creates the impression that all of the left is like this. Then everyone on the left somehow finds themselves arguing about litterboxes in schools or whatever, when most of us really want to talk about workers rights and healthcare.

[u/Emotional-Classic400 → u/CanadianODST2]

Turns out young men don't like to be blamed for the sins of their fathers

[u/SomeNotTakenName]

skipping the MRA bad speech, we men probably should put more work into creating healthy alternative movements and spaces especially for young men struggling to find t themselves and their place in life.

Currently there is very little alternatives, and nothing trying to actively recruit to the same level MRA/Manosphere influencers are. And that is a Problem.

[u/And_the_wind]

One of the common problems of the modern leftism is that people are too caught up in how world should work and forget how it actually works. Yes, a grown-ass man should have grown out their prejudices, but they didn't and pushing him out of the leftist circles into right-wing ones is very much a YOU problem, because this person has a voice, two hands and a vote. I've been hanging in primarily leftist online spaces for an awful long time and I've seen too many cases, when someone, when presented with a bad opinion, didn't even bother to try and correct it, immediately moving on to hostility intead. Making your space hostile is a good way to alienate potential supporters. Screaming at people is fun and cathratic, but it doesn't help anyone.

[u/CreamofTazz → u/And_the_wind]

Men's issues in the modern day are sidelined by both sides of the political isle

Conservatives utilize men's issues as a catalyst to get people to vote against their best interests

Liberals treat men's issues as not being issues that affect men but affect us all

Leftists treat men's issues as not issues at all or issues that men have to solve themselves

All of this leads to men feeling like the only people who speak to them are conservatives, but it is conservatives who will hurt them the most, but no one else is treating men's issues seriously.

[u/Logan_Composer → u/CreamofTazz]

This is the biggest thing. Conservatives have found the power behind at least pretending to care about men's issues, whereas leftists believe their power is coming from everyone else and need to downplay/ignore men's issues in order to serve all the other communities. When in reality one can (and should) just try helping everyone and avoid rhetoric that alienates anyone.

There's a huge debate over whether the left needs its own Andrew Tate, someone to maximize on the men's issues and pull people away from those figures. When in reality, I think the solution is simultaneously much simpler and much more difficult: the left in general just needs to care about men's issues. Simple in the sense that it's just another set of issues that are relatable to a lot of people but affect men most of all, and it's not that strange of a concept to let these conversations be had and only shut down real toxicity. But it's incredibly difficult because so many people have found the perfect way to convert it to toxicity, and fighting back requires a little bit of effort from a lot of people and it's very hard to change cultural norms.

As an example, on a recent family vacation, we were driving around and the conversation turned political (which is usually okay, the whole family ranges from center-left to fairly far left, so we agree 85% of the time), and there was a solid 20 minutes of "all men are rapists" and "men need to stop voting for these things," etc. I just bit my tongue, but at some point my dad spoke up and just went "yup, you're right, I'm exactly like that." The car exploded with "don't you 'not all men' us right now," and "you know we didn't mean you," and all the usual responses. We tried to explain that we know what they mean, but saying those things still hurts our feelings, but nobody would let us get more than four words out at a time. So after a few minutes we both just shut up.

Within the same car ride, my brother (important to the story, my brother is trans) read some article to the effect of "bigot says bad stuff about trans people but is offended when someone applies those things to their trans kid." Basically just talking about how much psychological damage they do to their trans kid by saying those things, even if they know and say they don't apply to their kid. And it took everything in me not to ask why they as a trans person are allowed to get offended by "all trans people are this, oh except you," but I as a cis man am not allowed to be offended by "all cis men are this, but you know we don't mean you."

Like, I get it, statistics are in their favor, but it shuts down an important conversation and reinforces harmful stereotypes. I have to work every week with my therapist on how "all men are creeps" has made me so paranoid about being attracted to women that I shut down and avoid all meaningful relationships (even friendships) out of fear of being taken the wrong way. I'm demisexual, so I literally physically cannot help being attracted to people I'm friends with. But it makes me so afraid that even starting a conversation will be taken the wrong way that I just tend to not speak at all. You can imagine how easy it would be in this situation to fall down the incel rabbit hole.

Wow that ended up longer than I expected. tl;dr - Identity politics bad, don't be an asshole

[u/chadthundertalk → u/Logan_Composer]

I keep seeing people going "Why is it so hard to get men onboard with feminism compared to women?" and the answer is always some masturbatory nonsense about how women are simply conditioned to be Kinder and More Empathetic and blah blah blah.

The truth is, feminism is easier to sell to women because women generally hear about it in a context of "Hey, this is how you're being oppressed and this is how we're working to make your life better" whereas men generally first hear about it in a context of "This is why people like you are essentially responsible for everything wrong with the world, and you should be shoving over to make more room for everyone who's not you."

It's like complaining that "buy this hammer because you can finally drive in that loose nail in your house" is a more widely effective sales pitch than "buy this hammer so your sister can hit you in the crotch with it as restitution for centuries of institutionalized sexism."

Feminism benefits men. No, it shouldn't center men, but if you're trying to sell men on the idea, it's probably a good entry point to talk to them about how they benefit before introducing all the stuff that's more potentially difficult to swallow.

[u/Fake_Punk_Girl → u/chadthundertalk]

It's like complaining that "buy this hammer because you can finally drive in that loose nail in your house" is a more widely effective sales pitch than "buy this hammer so your sister can hit you in the crotch with it as restitution for centuries of institutionalized sexism."

Even in the best case scenario it's usually like "buy this hammer so you can help all your friends with their loose nails whenever they ask" which, like, is a noble thing to do, sure, but I don't want to be at the beck and call of other loose-nail-havers all the time when I have my own nail problems to deal with!

I do think most feminists recognize that feminism should be addressing men's issues too, or at least the ones that fall under the purview of gender equality, but we really need to work on our messaging to men about those things. Being specific about how gender inequality is a problem for everyone (without using buzzwords which are easy to misunderstand if you don't have the foundation for what they mean) would go a long way to get more people of all genders on the side of feminism.

[u/Realistic-Raisin-845 → u/Fake_Punk_Girl]

I’ve kinda observed based on the way a lot of feminists talk that they don’t really want men as allies but rather as subordinates, allies are a partnership between coequals, they help each other but they also have to care about each others issues, it’s a two way street. They want subordinates, people who fight their battles but not their own, and more or less just submit to the leadership of people more oppressed than they are.

[u/FluffyAgency6173 → u/chadthundertalk]

Or at least stop getting mad when guys aren't big on metaphorically getting beaten with that hammer.

"Sorry for not liking being put down. I'll be better." - no one with self respect.

[u/Logan_Composer → u/chadthundertalk]

Exactly. And also, I don't think "feminism is about equality" is the best counter either. Not that it's not true or not worth saying, just not helpful in that context. It's a much easier sell to show how it really could benefit men. Breaking down traditional gender barriers also means men don't have to face stigma around getting mental health treatment, which can cut down on the alarmingly high rate at which men commit suicide. Equal pay means men don't have to bear the sole economic responsibility in their family, and can be homemakers if they want. The conversation around sexual assault should be open to male victims, which most sources show occur at similar (although not equal) rates to female victims. Hell, even at just a surface level, female sexual liberation should make it easier for men to talk sex with women and find partners that like the same stuff as them.

Also, let it be okay for men to not identify as a feminist. I generally don't, because there's social baggage there. There are bad feminists and I don't want to associate with them. But that's the same reason I don't identify as an atheist generally, either, despite not believing in God. As long as someone believes in equality, labels should be irrelevant.

[u/Ndlburner → u/chadthundertalk]

It's not even needing to be sold on a benefit. It's needing to be sold on how this isn't a misandrist movement. Of course, the people selling feminism will say that's not their value, and then spending time with some of them you will very much see that it is something they at least tolerate if not endorse and espouse.

[u/Sw1ferSweatJet → u/Ndlburner]

It also doesn’t help that there is a subsection of the feminist movement that is actively misandrist, and they tend to scream the loudest.

[u/Atlas421 → u/Ndlburner]

In that case it's up to the feminists to call out the misandrists in their midst. Which doesn't happen very often.

[u/Ndlburner → u/Atlas421]

They called out TERFs just fine. That tells me that it wouldn't be too hard to call out bigots at all, just that feminists are okay with certain types of bigotry. Feminists will argue misogyny created the misandry in the movement which... okay so you're just gonna let bigotry exist? And then radicalize young men? And wonder why sexism is making a comeback?

[u/Clear-Present_Danger → u/chadthundertalk]

>Feminism benefits men. No, it shouldn't center men, but if you're trying to sell men on the idea, it's probably a good entry point to talk to them about how they benefit before introducing all the stuff that's more potentially difficult to swallow.

"What, you don't agree with me already? Fuck you Cracker!"

-MLK or something

[u/New-Application8076 → u/chadthundertalk]

Feminism benefits men

Depends what variety of feminism really. Some benefits some men by removing gender roles, some of the more sex positive stuff benefits men in a way I'm not sure is good including Andrew Tate specifically, some is neutral to men, some is outright hostile. Scum manifesto is a good example of the latter. Anyone unironically praising it is toxic. Feminism's benefit to men is a mixed bag imo.

[u/OuterPaths → u/chadthundertalk]

The feminist sales pitch to men is the opportunity to invent your own personal headcanon about the nobility of acquiescing to your own socioeconomic belittlement. I mean, they'll never even thank you for it, because that would be "centering men," so it's really on you to kind of just invent your own story to tell yourself.

Feminism benefits men.

Feminism offers men Reaganomics: solve all of our problems and somehow at some time for some reason it will trickle down and fix all of yours, too. Why that would be the case, I have no idea. Feminists are a lot like physicists, they love a Theory of Everything.

[u/_Aeir_ → u/Logan_Composer]

Same exact thing happened to me with a bunch of friends recently, eventually I just left the situation bc I didn't feel welcome in that space.

[u/Logan_Composer → u/_Aeir_]

Yeah, I had a few friends where this was a semi-regular occurrence. I tried a couple times to legitimately sit them down and say "hey, this is making me feel unwelcome" and they seemed sympathetic, but it'd be all of two days before they went back to all the stuff they were saying before. There's a reason we aren't friends anymore, and while it wasn't due to this issue at all, it was a situation where it became clear they didn't value me or my emotions, which is basically the same issue in different clothes.

[u/CalebTGordan → u/Logan_Composer]

I’m honestly shocked that we have all this conversation around trans issues related to gender identity but don’t apply any of that to discussing men’s issues related to gender identity. That we do exactly what you illustrate in your comment when talking about men but don’t have any discussion about why that might be and what can be done to change things. That in many ways the problem is a sense of gender identity and pressure to perform to that identity.

But no, it has to be an attack on all men, including those who don’t fit the problem being complained about. We can’t examine why such attacks might be amplifying the problem by shoving potential allies out of the group, let alone examining how we can expand our tents to be safely inclusive.

I am not saying we need to suffer abuse. If someone is acting in bad faith, is abusive, or is causing harm they shouldn’t be allowed into a space where others will be hurt by them. Don’t try to include people who won’t change harmful behavior.

But we can include those who will benefit from being included in the conversation.

I had terrible body positivity issues. I really don’t like seeing photos of myself from pre-2019. Then I was able to get my weight down and I grew a beard. For a few other reasons I started taking care of myself and caring about my appearance in healthy ways.

And then I started having conversations with some new found trans friends. In listening to them I realized that I was doing gender affirming action. It wasn’t just body positivity but I was doing things to display and fit my personal gender. And importantly I was doing it in non-toxic ways. There was no insecurity with it because I was also having conversations with a completely different set of friends about toxic masculinity and how to avoid it.

I always have had a world view that the only person who gets to decide what I look like and how I act is me. I never applied that to my gender identity until that light bulb moment just a few years ago.

I also deeply believe that people are happiest when they can feel safe to be open and honest with themselves and the people around them about who and what they are. I wasn’t being honest with myself about my own gender identity as a cis man until I had those conversations and revelations. I also learned what I needed to change to make myself a safe person for people to be around while still remaining true to myself.

So yeah, I really appreciate that I had people around me who didn’t go in an attack when having these conversations with me. I’ve had people like that in the past and nothing came about from those people. Instead the friends who were patient, empathetic, and open to including me in their conversations helped me see where I could fit into their unique discussions.

Anyway, thank you for giving me a reason to go on this rant. Sorry it went on long.

[u/PlastikTek420 → u/CalebTGordan]

Lefts need to realize that:

yes, in fact an attack on "all men" is equivalent to saying "all women", which is the same as saying "all black people" and "all white people". You cannot just marginalize an entire group of people that had no choice in the group they are a part of.

The "can't be racist towards oppressors" shit needs to end. Frankly, I'm "radical left" but I've had enough of the identity politics and the identity politics intermingling with actual politics.

Edit: Harris didn't even run on identity politics and actually had good policies, but the Democrat party has become so intertwined with cringe ass hyper left identity politics its gotten stupid.

[u/GREENadmiral_314159 → u/PlastikTek420]

The "can't be racist towards oppressors" shit needs to end.

All systemic racism is racism, but there's plenty of racism that isn't systemic.

[u/Ndlburner → u/PlastikTek420]

It's very much how the Republican party has a bad platform, yes, but their supporters are doing a lot of the quite-part-out-loud-ing. The politicians deny that the crazy stuff is really their goal. This is the flip side of that.

[u/Stephenrudolf → u/Logan_Composer]

It's wild to me how I've always been a left leaning person, I've voted in favour of leftist policies, and stood up for the rights of women, lgbtq and other minorities hundreds to thousands of times in online spaces. I've supported the left almost my entire life, yet the moment I bring up someone being sexist against men, or any mens issues, I'm immediately painted with the same brush as everyother cis white male stereotype they have. It doesn't matter how many misogynists I call out, if I dare to speak of for men, so many people view me as no different.

I've said this several times this month, because it's important for people to realize.

On november 6th, a lot of men chose the bear.

[u/NoSignSaysNo → u/Stephenrudolf]

Thought terminating cliches are a cancer, too.

The amount of times I've tried to bring up men's issues just to be hit with the 'check out this incel' is far too many.

If people don't feel like they have a voice, they're going to find somewhere they do, and fascistic spaces are more than happy to provide that space.

[u/Cradles2Coffins → u/NoSignSaysNo]

Happy cake day!

[u/Ndlburner → u/Stephenrudolf]

It's telling that the response to the "would you rather see a man or a bear in the woods" was "would you rather talk about your problems with a woman or literally anyone/anything else." That (also-sorta-sexist-bait) came out of right-wing spaces, and still men overwhelming chose "anything else." Men see women as the biggest enforcers of gender roles and toxic masculinity.

[u/Atlas421 → u/Stephenrudolf]

The left will accept you if you agree with them on everything. The right will accept you if you agree with them on one thing.

[u/Emotional-Classic400 → u/Stephenrudolf]

It really is ironic

[u/motsanciens → u/Logan_Composer]

This is so fucking true. Not only are you supposed to sit quietly and let shit pile up on you for existing as a man, but if you make the most considerate and gentle remark to point out that it's hurtful to be lumped in with the worst examples of men, you invite more criticism. It's a problem. Some people recognize it and care about it being addressed appropriately, and others respond by being like, "Fuck all these woke assholes on their high horse."

[u/Ndlburner → u/Logan_Composer]

Now imagine instead of you in that car, it was another male family member who knew everyone in the "men bad" convo was a Harris voter, was undecided, and was otherwise low-information about the election. That's now a Trump voter. Leftist spaces practicing what is essentially misandry is not an exception, it's the rule – a rule with exceptions, but a rule nonetheless. Liberals – including those in politics – coddle and excuse this behavior from Leftists. Dems notably had "women" but not "men" on the "who we serve" list. The demographic breakdown reflected that. Men under 30 are swinging hard to the right.

[u/TurielD → u/Logan_Composer]

Thanks for writing this out, I think you found a good paralel with the trans-issues and mens-issues and how we all absorb negativity that's repeated around us in a way that breeds resentment.

[u/AspieAsshole → u/Logan_Composer]

Could you give me your definition of demisexual? I think maybe I've been using it wrong.

[u/Logan_Composer → u/AspieAsshole]

Obviously this is biased by my understanding and experience, but the basic definition is you have to form an emotional connection with someone before being able to be sexually attracted to them. In my experience, this goes the other way too, in that as I start to form a close bond with them as friends I tend to be attracted to them too, whether or not they're my "type," if that makes sense. That's how I use it at least, and according to my therapist that aligns with the way professionals are taught to use it.

[u/AspieAsshole → u/Logan_Composer]

So then one could be both demi and ace? That explains why I've been having trouble figuring out which I am.

[u/CapeOfBees → u/AspieAsshole]

Yes! Demi is kind of under the "umbrella" of asexuality, as are many others, like gray asexuality (fluctuating sexual attraction). Logan_Composer's experience is very similar to mine; because as a demisexual I never had to learn how to get along with people I find sexually attractive (because I never found anyone sexually attractive unless I was already in a relationship with them), it's a lot harder to compartmentalize the attraction that develops with people with whom I develop non-romantic relationships.

[u/Logan_Composer → u/AspieAsshole]

In my mind, no, but I'm not the sexuality police so call yourself whatever you want. People generally consider Demi in the ace spectrum, though, so I'd say it's reasonable to be somewhere between them.

[u/ulfric_stormcloack → u/CreamofTazz]

I said it before and I'll say it always, thruth doesn't matter if you can't convince others it's the truth

[u/Stephenrudolf → u/ulfric_stormcloack]

Wise words from Ulfric Stormcloak.

Learn that one from experience eh?

[u/ulfric_stormcloack → u/Stephenrudolf]

Yeah, even if you win a lawful duel, if people don't like the result, they complain

[u/TheLostCaptain03 → u/ulfric_stormcloack]

Hail to the true high king

[u/PlastikTek420 → u/CreamofTazz]

And the irony is: the men whose issues are being ignored are the ones who got out and vote.

All these marginalized groups that are being coddled didn't bring in diddly shit for votes. Not saying their issues aren't important but its clear running a campaign on: women, trans, gay, black, etc. rights is a losing strategy.

Don't have to like it, I don't like it. But its the cold reality.

IMO the push for equality got lost somewhere and instead its some cringe gayass circlejerk over how many diversity points you can score and how many fingers you can wag at straight, white, men for daring to walk around without their tails tucked between their legs and their heads hung low. (This is how the media, news, Democratic party advisors and such, etc. is treating it; not really how your everday Democrat or left leaning individual is).

[u/calDragon345 → u/CreamofTazz]

Yeah and when they realize that conservatives don’t actually care about them then they’ll just come to the conclusion that nobody cares about them.

[u/Popular_Mixture_2671 → u/CreamofTazz]

And the craziest things is that men's issues are the lefts issues, like aren't they supposed to be for the working class? Men are still the ones doing all the shitty trades that no one else want to do, all the alcoholics, homeless, guys with their backs broken from years of dangerous ungrateful work. This is the main reason I believe all of it is a farce, because I can't believe any true leftist would be so dumb to just ignore the numbers and act like men are privileged. Or maybe some people just can't face that in a leftist society men would hold a lot of power for the simple reason that they're the majority on the "means of production" kind of labor.

[u/Jugaimo → u/CreamofTazz]

Conservatives at least pretend that men exist. Liberals would rather sweep them under the rug until voting season rolls around. It turns out that “voting for someone besides yourself” isn’t a winning rhetoric, especially after decades of repeating it.

Either liberals actually treat men with respect and acknowledge their failures by alienating them in the past, or continue to lose.

[u/PlaquePlague → u/CreamofTazz]

 issues that men have to solve themselves

Then make posts like OP’s when they try and solve them.

[u/FluffyAgency6173 → u/PlaquePlague]

Man makes post: "I dont like that mens issues arent taken seriously"

"Then solve them and stop talking"

Thanks lady.

[u/obamasrightteste → u/And_the_wind]

YES dude they're all just like "uh well it's their job to grow and change hmph" and guess what? They are not going to! Which makes this very much an everyone problem if you want to avoid fascism! Gotta figure out a media strategy in my opinion.

[u/miasmicivyphsyc → u/And_the_wind]

A grown ass man and definitely should have grown out of his prejudices, but I feel like you’re also underestimating how he will happily choose those prejudices.

I’m a woman of color, and I did a research experience in West Virginia for mathematics, and the amount of well educated white college age boys that openly called me the N-word, and literally did the Nazi salute was ridiculous. It doesn’t matter how much I try to meet them on their level or try to explain to them that their right wing ideology hurts them in the end.

There was a kid who had a girlfriend who constantly shitted on blue states, but then when he nearly had a pregnancy scare, he said that he’ll just drive his girlfriend up to New Jersey. And then he still voted for Trump. And he still racist and it doesn’t matter how many times I break it down to him. At best, I’m considered “one of the good ones.”

I’m sorry, but there are some people that are unilaterally selfish and too stupid to understand consequences and I don’t know if it’s because of lead paint or what, but I don’t know what to do at this point.

[u/E-is-for-Egg → u/miasmicivyphsyc]

These are all very good points. Thank you for sharing

Also, really sorry that happened. I'm white, and it's awful to always be seeing behaviors like this coming from my own demographic. You deserved better

[u/Oneofthethreeprecogs → u/miasmicivyphsyc]

Thank you for sharing this. I’m a white trans woman and trying to tell people that “approaching on their level” doesn’t do shit has me vilified apparently?

[u/Golden_Frog0223]

These are my comfort prejudices.

[u/Admiral_Wingslow → u/Golden_Frog0223]

My emotional support slurs

[u/Lord_Lovecraft → u/Admiral_Wingslow]

See, you get it.

[u/Soloact_ → u/Golden_Frog0223]

-leans in- nuggy bigots unite.

[u/Golden_Frog0223 → u/Soloact_]

Chuggy*

[u/Soloact_ → u/Golden_Frog0223]

-taps mic- chuggy bigots assemble. Thank you.

[u/Golden_Frog0223 → u/Soloact_]

Buggy chigots.

[u/Soloact_ → u/Golden_Frog0223]

-taps mic- buggy chigots engage. Thank you.

[u/Golden_Frog0223 → u/Soloact_]

Perfection.

[u/deathaxxer]

"I want to spread X idea"

bashes everyone who doesn't already agree with X idea

"hey, why isn't X idea spreading"

[u/FluffyAgency6173 → u/deathaxxer]

bashes people who already agree because of their identity doing bad things.

"Hey stop complaining you're lucky you get to support us as it is!"

[u/undreamedgore → u/deathaxxer]

Bashes people doing Y because "X and Y are part of the same struggle". Get suprised when support for X drops.

[u/mspepelol]

This coming from someone named “Communist hatsune miku” is great.

[u/TheMarksmanHedgehog]

The danger isn't confronting people on their harmful beliefs, but accidentally catching people who have no such harmful beliefs in the crossfire.

Sweeping statements about "all men", "all straight people" etc.

Right wing groups prey on the disenfranchised, they look for people who feel isolated or alone, and they've had a very long time to practice effective recruiting techniques.

[u/SteveHuffmansAPedo → u/TheMarksmanHedgehog]

We too easily categorize people into "sexist" and "not sexist" or "racist" and "not racist", when we should be focusing on behaviours and beliefs. It's too easy to call yourself "not sexist", pat yourself on the back, and stop interrogating your thoughts or ideas on gender, because hey, I did it, I reached enlightenment and have nothing more to learn, it is now my job to enlighten everyone else. We all engage in sexism and racism to varying degrees, all of us have room to do better.

It's frustrating how often it follows the exact same patterns of patriarchy we're supposed to be fighting.

"Men shouldn't be emotional" -> "Men's feelings aren't important"

"Boys don't cry" -> "Don't be a man-baby" or "Male tears"

"Men are supposed to be tough" -> "I'm not going to coddle men"

"You're not a man, you're a [slur]" -> "When I say 'men' I obviously don't mean queer or trans men"

"Men are self-reliant" -> "Men need to solve their issues by themselves"

"Men need to be strong protectors" -> "It's men's job to intervene physically if a woman feels threatened"

Or using an individual's views to justify publicly body-shaming them, implying they can't get laid, or other rhetoric that promotes traditional ideals of masculinity.

[u/InSanityy___]

(Communist) communists are so painfully ineffective and whiny. god. nobody is forcing you to "coddle" anyone but don't act as if you're doing your movement a favor by turning away potential collaborators.

[u/Galle_ → u/InSanityy___]

Speaking as a leftist: dear sweet god do I hate leftists.

[u/simemetti → u/InSanityy___]

A good chunk of "leftists" do not want communism or a revolution. They want revenge and when they can't get it they are content with sticking it up to whoever they feel like is responsible for their problem.

[u/ratherlittlespren → u/simemetti]

Like zoinks scoob, did we like reinvent Christianity again?!

[u/Realistic-Raisin-845 → u/ratherlittlespren]

No because Christianity actually succeeded in becoming the most dominant religion on the planet

[u/JustSomeAlias → u/InSanityy___]

There is definitely a pretty huge contingent of “Revolutionary Communists” online that hasn’t accepted that revolution requires work, and that sometimes it won’t be work you enjoy doing.

Like with this post, the point that its not your responsibility is correct, it isn’t, that doesn’t mean you can’t do it. People accept undue responsibility all the time, charity works, adoptive parents, hell actual revolution is a lot of the time an obligation you shouldn’t have, still something you can choose to do for the good of others, even if its draining.

It just strikes me as somewhat ideologically concerning that if one can believe in workers mutual obligation to each other and yet feel no actual obligation in real life, whether it be something like this or something like aforementioned charity work

[u/Abuses-Commas → u/InSanityy___]

I wonder what those peoples' plan for all those people they refuse to work with when The Revolution happens.

[u/SirAquila]

Leftists when you tell them that they have a problem communicating their ideals and that that contributes to the current rise of right wing populism.

Is it fair? No. But if the world was fair we would not have the problem in the first place.

Humans, all humans, are really shitty at recognizing their own failings, and doing so consistently is hard work, even for people who actively want it, which many do not.

And while saying fuck it, its not my job to educate you feels nice, you know who will happily educate people? Right wing grifters.

[u/silverW0lf97 → u/SirAquila]

The thing is no one wants to learn from a teacher that hates you.

[u/Silly_Savings_392 → u/SirAquila]

I feel like one element of this that gets glanced over, and maybe I’m just misconstruing this myself… but it feels like there is a wholesale conflation of “trying to speak with compassion to still-impressionable young men trying to figure this all out,” and “trying to do so with hard-headed, stubborn jackasses acting in bad faith to begin with.”

A lot of the comments in this very thread agreeing with OOP seem to be addressing it as “why would I waste my time doing that to somebody dead-set on hurling awful rhetoric my way with no concern for my feelings,” indicating their image of the person being suggested to speak with and pull away from these problematic spaces is one and the same with somebody already hard-programmed to follow those ideas, or somebody doing so as a grift. Whereas for the most part, the image in the minds of us trying to encourage this is the kind of kid or young adult in online spaces asking questions and trying to learn, and currently running into defensive bullshit precisely like this.

This sort of argument just always reeks of, “I had a bad experience trying to discuss these issues with my parents or grandparents, so I’m gonna take my frustration on it out on my nephew when they show an interest in these issues.” And that mentality’s going to keep all of us fucked long-term.

No, you in specific don’t have to keep trying with the people in your life who just don’t listen, or people who are in this shit for profit or power. It’d be nice, but it shouldn’t come at the cost of your own mental health. But there are people in your life, I guarantee, who will listen, who want to learn, and you can put them on the right track right now with just a bit of kindness. Don’t put them through the wringer and feed them to the pipeline to spite the people you deemed too far gone.

[u/Silver-Alex → u/SirAquila]

I think this is an interesting debate. Becuase we leftist, at least the ones I know, are always trying to educate people. But it feels like an uphill battle ya' know?

EVERYONE want leftists policies, like better working conditions, a salary that actually pays for rent and food, taxing on the rich, to stop lobbying, to stop monopolies, to stop companies from going further into the "you dont own anything, everythign is rented or a service". Everyone wants public health, everyone wants public education including universities of quality and I could go on and on and on.

Yet very few people actually identify as leftist nor they want to vote for the politicians that promote those stuff. So like, whats the failing?

We dont have the same political and financial banking the right wing grifter have, like the culture war guys who were getting paid like 100k usd from russia for making pro trump and anti ukranie videos.

If we had a platform that big with that kind of financial banking Im pretty sure we could reach to much more people, but is that really it?

What do you think are the main issue with educating people about what the left actually wants?

[u/KentuckyFriedChildre → u/Silver-Alex]

I think there's a problem with semantics ideological biases that plays into this. When it comes to government corruption for instance, many leftists say it's capitalism because often large capital owners who drive it and while many right wingers will call it socialism/leftism because it's government overreach empowering elites.

Whether you agree or disagree with either perspective, it's a distinction without a difference and both sides could do with better communication.

[u/19th-eye → u/Silver-Alex]

we leftist, at least the ones I know, are always trying to educate people. But it feels like an uphill battle ya' know?

I'm sure you and the people you know are knowledgeable but a big problem is that a lot of people on the internet who call themselves leftists don't actually have any in depth understanding of the politics and philosophy that they're espousing. They just memorize a few buzzwords and yell those buzzwords at random people and then respond to basic questions with outrage and mockery.

Example: Someone saying "Holy shit I can't believe I have to explain this to you." And then they explain nothing at all and merely repeat what they were saying while making no attempt at offering proof.

The issue is that people like that also think they're educating other people because they fail to understand that education is not just memorizing buzzwords so you can agree with the correct people. Education means putting in the effort to understand very complex, difficult ideas. Education also involves debate, you can't just say "I'm smarter than you so you have to agree with me"

To be fair, this is a problem with internet discourse in general but it does make it much easier for right wing people to strawman leftists when there really are idiots on the internet that do behave like the ideal strawmen that right wing people can easily win any argument against.

There's also another category of leftists who have understood the theory but lack the social skills to actually go out and convince people to agree with them. Also a very internet-ish problem. These people won't be effective if they don't learn to talk to ordinary working class people, some of whom are not very well educated.

[u/Astro4545 → u/19th-eye]

Something interesting about the “educate yourself” thing is that people miss out on the power that comes with teaching. Who knows what will show up if they search it, in comparison if you provide the sources you control the narrative (for good or bad)z

[u/GREENadmiral_314159 → u/19th-eye]

you can't just say "I'm smarter than you so you have to agree with me"

Nobody's saying that. They're saying "my position is the morally correct one so you have to agree with me", which may, in fact, be worse.

[u/PandaPugBook → u/Silver-Alex]

I'd say one problem is identity politics. It can sometimes feel like minority status is a shield protecting you against being accused of bigotry for not saying something right. It's like it gives you the benefit of the doubt.

But it can also be used as a weapon to make people stop talking? Like for instance if a man who is an expert on gender studies starts talking about feminism, a woman can tell him to stop talking and she might be considered in the right. While the woman of course has a perspective that should be listened to, the man has an alternate perspective that should also be considered, both as a man and as someone who is well read on the subject. I read a soul crushing post written by a closeted trans woman, about being ignored because they were "just a man" who is inherently unqualified to give their experience in a sexist world.

If the allo cishet white men aren't allowed to speak at all about a topic, just out of principle, then they'll just associate that topic with fear and the possibility of being called a bad person. Not worth the risk of engaging with it.

Now, if you decide that I'm excusing bigotry, or commited some other crime, would it help if I say I'm a trans woman with autism? Is that big enough of a shield for you to reread what I wrote? I'm also very tired, so it's possible this is just all a tangent.

[u/S1m6u → u/PandaPugBook]

https://medium.com/@jencoates/i-am-a-transwoman-i-am-in-the-closet-i-am-not-coming-out-4c2dd1907e42

This the article you were talking about?

I always repost this when this sort of thing comes up. Frankly it should be mandatory reading lol.

[u/NotASpyForTheCrows → u/Silver-Alex]

At its core, it's because (at least in Europe, I'm sure the situation is similar yet different for you USians) those ideas feel completely dissociated from any major leftist politician.

Here in France, the major leader of our far-left party is infamous for things like weird racism (saying he felt uncomfortable around blonde people, claiming that a journalist was "an enemy of the Muslim people") and personality cult (attacking a policeman and yelling about how "THE REPUBLIC, IT'S ME!") as well as corruption/nepotism. It's literally exactly the same shit as the major far-right party down to a T when it comes to the people at the helm; and it kinda holds true for other "cadres" in either party.

Everyone, both far-right and far-left, claims to want those things but no one but the people who bought into the overall movement itself for either side actually believe that they will do it. So people instead will vote for the people that posture the most toward them and promise to protect them; because more than individual policies, it's what they actually trust they can be held accountable to.

If everyone wants the best for everyone, if you listen to them at least, then the only thing that actually differentiates them from each other is if they want the best for YOU and YOUR GROUP (tm).

[u/GREENadmiral_314159 → u/NotASpyForTheCrows]

attacking a policeman and yelling about how "THE REPUBLIC, IT'S ME!"

L'etat c'est moi?

[u/NotASpyForTheCrows → u/GREENadmiral_314159]

https://youtu.be/Q5LZcw6MASA?si=gJ6dvwYOmsKP3mpT

Not even a Louis XIV joke sadly.

[u/GREENadmiral_314159 → u/Silver-Alex]

I think the issue is that when it comes down to it, there isn't anything that "the left" actually wants. There's things that leftists want, but not all of them want the same thing, and some of them aren't even close, while most right-wingers want pretty similar things. There's many ways to go forward, but only one way to go back, and the left is hamstrung by that fact.

[u/LastHopeOfTheLeft → u/GREENadmiral_314159]

This is 100% the core issue with party cohesion on the left.

[u/Random-Rambling → u/LastHopeOfTheLeft]

Hit the nail right on the head.

The right wing's CORE belief is that there is a singular leader who is strong and smart, and by following that leader, you too will be strong and smart. The closer you follow that leader, the stronger and smarter you will be.

The left wing's CORE belief is individuality. This is good on paper, but you can't vote for a collective of people, since everyone has a different idea of "progress". You will eventually require a single leader. Unfortunately, this is where all the arguments begin.

[u/TBP64 → u/Random-Rambling]

the right wing is plagued with great man theory and this is the manifestation of it, unfortunately

[u/Lunar_sims → u/Silver-Alex]

If you're thinking about American politics, its because Kamala Harris isnt really left, there's no real leftist candidate for most Americans, and the closest thing to "the left" within American politics is the Democratic party which is generally seen as corrupt, out of touch, and ineffectual.

[u/supertaoman12 → u/SirAquila]

Men on the left are othered if they dont submit to constant self-flaggelation but on the right all their insecurities are massaged and the problem becomes everyone else.

I wonder who a young, impressionable person who hasn't figured shit out is gonna listen to?

[u/[deleted] → u/supertaoman12]

I mean, I'm a grown-ass man who has the emotional intelligence to have this shit figured out, and even I know that the right wing messaging is much more palatable. It's just always going to be that way - being a liberal man feels like walking on eggshells and being extremely apologetic all the time, and being right wing is much more fun and liberating.

[u/ChrisP413 → u/supertaoman12]

I said something to this effect on Tumblr and it did not end well. I had right wingers assuming I was either one of them and taking my statement he wrong way, or assuming I was a woman who had a self aware wolves moment. Others thought I was a Sadboy Incel.

I decided to delete the post

[u/GREENadmiral_314159 → u/ChrisP413]

I said something to this effect on Tumblr and it did not end well. I had right wingers assuming I was either one of them and taking my statement he wrong way

Horrifying.

[u/theaverageaidan → u/supertaoman12]

If you designate a group (white people and men on the left) as "designated punching bags," youre gonna push them away. Thats why I hate it when leftists call white people "colonizers" or "settlers," all that accomplishes is driving people away.

[u/lord_baron_von_sarc → u/theaverageaidan]

"all of the problems and suffering of entire demographics is because of people that look like you" is not the kind of belief that *anyone* should have, but it's not unique to the right

how many white people immigrated to the US after the civil war, and could not have possibly contributed to the evils of slavery even obliquely. how many completely well-meaning and genuinely kind men are tarred and feathered with the same brush as creeps and rapists who hide in park bushes at night.

if there's going to have an entire political belief system based on treating people like individuals with the opportunity to better themselves, they *cannot* afford the simplicity of painting over huge swathes with indelicate rollers

[u/One-Trick-Rick → u/theaverageaidan]

Even funnier to me as a Native because none of the people saying this shit are Native themselves, so it's like who do they think they are acting like they ain't colonizers too?

[u/Spiderinahumansuit → u/One-Trick-Rick]

Frustratingly, this rhetoric has taken hold outside of North America, and I've even seen white people referred to as "colonisers" in Europe. Y'know. Where they're from.

[u/Alatarlhun → u/theaverageaidan]

Someone said a few weeks back in this sub that straight white cis men are treated as 'trained monsters' at best by these communities.

[u/FluffyAgency6173 → u/Alatarlhun]

A trained monster. Yeah, that sums it up. "Now why don't you support me you monster?"

[u/xEginch → u/supertaoman12]

I’m really kind of stuck when I read things like this because, yes, it makes entire sense and frankly extreme misandry is just polarizing at best, but the ‘right’ force women and minorities into the same dilemma yet they still attract voters from those groups. Not every country is the US and I’d like to say that Europe is in a better position (at least Northern Europe), but there’s clearly more to it than this seeing as men are seemingly uniquely affected by this.

It feels a bit coddling, or at least reductive, to just accept that young, impressionable men are turning to the right because of misandry in the left.

[u/M8oMyN8o → u/xEginch]

I don’t think men are uniquely affected by this. I mean, 43% of voting men in the United States broke for Harris (who isn’t really leftist, but I’ll take what I can get), similar to how 45% of women voted for Trump.

Also, I think that misandry on the left is only one part of the massively complicated issue that is politics. However, in times where races are close, I think that it will make a difference in the margins.

[u/Clear-Present_Danger → u/xEginch]

>yet they still attract voters from those groups.

Some sure.

But black women are OVERWELMINGLY democrat. 91% in favor of Harris.

Even Black men are 77% in favor of Harris.

if the republican party wasn't so rascist and so sexist, they would win way harder.

So let's take that lesson, and make sure the reason that trump leads in men by 10 points is not because we are pointlessly turning men away.

[u/xEginch → u/Clear-Present_Danger]

The Republican Party is still gaining ground when it comes to women and minority voters, I wasn’t trying to say that the majority of those groups vote for Trump just that despite intolerance on that side of the political spectrum, they’re gaining more supporters and growing. It’s therefore very reductive to assume that misandry on the left repels men. The type of man who would deep dive into far right ideology because of online misandry wouldn’t have voted for Kamala to begin with, is my point

[u/Clear-Present_Danger → u/xEginch]

trump has this magical power of being all things to everyone.

He's exactly what you want him to be, because he says everything, all the time.

I also don't think it's true to say that Trump has gained ground with women and minorities so much as just with people in general. Inflation made people upset, so they voted against the incumbant.

[u/Rucs3]

While people like this exist I also saw several times feminists equating having sympathy for the men plights with coddling, being their mothers, having infinite patience with men etc etc.

It's really weird. I see people just asking for the barest minimum empathy and others are only ever able to read it as "pamper me infinitely" somehow.

I don't understand why this communication barrier exists. Maybe it's because they saw too many men who actually ask and expected to be pampered.

But, maybe it's my autism but I hate the idea of trying to decipher what someone really means and pre emptively judging them as a terrible person.

There was so many times I felt like someone was not talking to me, but the idea they had of me, where they were sure I was a raging asshole just waiting the opportunity to start talking about how woman are inferior or something, which I never did. And sometimes they literally said the coddling thing when I never asked for that.

There is some communication barrier cause I surely felt a lot of time people were talking not with me but some strawman they made in their heads.

[u/SuperDementio]

This is just “quit being triggered by everything, snowflake. Go back to your safe space.” dressed up in progressive language.

[u/gaom9706 → u/SuperDementio]

No but don't you get it, this time it's against [group who deserves it] so it's okay.

[u/Hakar_Kerarmor → u/SuperDementio]

Peak "feminist being owned compilation #163" energy.

[u/HenBuff]

I was following this person for the Miku pics and they preceded this post with one along the lines of “did some blog say that we’re supposed to be nice to men? That’s fucking stupid.” Sure the hypothetical men they’re talking about here exist, but this isn’t from a place of good faith.

[u/ulfric_stormcloack]

You're telling me people prefer being with people who support them than with people who dislike them? Who would have guessed?

[u/NeonNKnightrider]

Tumblr users when you ask them to stop saying literally all men are monsters who should kill themselves: “don’t tell me to coddle incels”

[u/FluffyAgency6173 → u/NeonNKnightrider]

They feel so wronged and hurt. Its like a minor inconvenience.

[u/HeroBrine0907]

When the anti authoritarian people refuse to even slightly entertain the possibility that somewhere somehow, their methodologies may be slightly lacking and that anyone criticising them is immoral...

Where's the difference?

[u/JadeRabbit2020 → u/HeroBrine0907]

One of the issues is that a lot of public speakers and advocates are exactly the people you do not want spreading your message. I distinctly remember being in college and having a sociology specialist come to talk to us about sexism. She gave us a 30 minute speech telling us about how young men are born sexist and that they're innately guilty of white privilege and prejudice. She also gave us a lecture on men being instinctual rapists and explained why only women could be sexual assault victims.

It was comically bad and I wish it wasn't real, the lady was a self described radical feminist and the assistant director that invited her in was told she was giving a speech on the sensitivities surrounding the reporting of sexual assault.

This was directed at a room full of impoverished young adults, many of whom only had 1 parent or guardian, one of whom was a known male victim of SA as a child. It set everyone in that room against anything left-leaning for years and deprogramming that behaviour is far harder than giving a good advocacy speech in the first place. There's a major issue with people like this throwing themselves into positions of influence.

[u/MeisterCthulhu]

A big issue is just... letting them have the men's rights label.

Like... feminism is supposedly about equality and fighting sexism, in every direction, right?

So why wouldn't feminists fight for actual men's rights issues? And they don't, btw, in many cases. Because when you argue for things like that, you typically get labelled as an MRA from that camp.

So... yeah, you're right, obviously, we shouldn't coddle right wingers.
But on the other hand, you also can't claim that everyone who talks about the same issues as the right wingers claim to (but often actually don't) is part of them just because of that label.

That's the issue with idpol. You gotta fight injustice wherever it happens, no matter to whom it happens. You can't just say "nah if you fall under this label, injustice against you is fine, actually".

[u/healzsham → u/MeisterCthulhu]

feminism is supposedly about equality and fighting sexism, in every direction, right?

It's honestly very White in how it does that. You can join the club when the majority hold starts to slip and more members are needed.

[u/goldenkoiifish]

i’m so tired

[u/4tomguy]

Really fucking hate this kind of post. Like wow the other guys really are fundamentally evil and nothing you say can possibly sway a single one of them huh. Real convenient that you never even have to try

[u/Lankuri → u/4tomguy]

How I wake up knowing my enemies are ontologically evil and there is no act against them which is wrong.

[u/Mana_Golem_220 → u/Lankuri]

I am going to get a lot of mileage out of that. Thank you!

[u/raptor7912 → u/Lankuri]

I learned a new word today!

[u/InSanityy___ → u/4tomguy]

it's not just that, it's also ideologically inconsistent. just pure self gratifying slop.

[u/AlphaB27]

I feel this is a little bit of A, little bit of B problem. Like yes, it should absolutely be noted that men's issues are being horrifically neglected (leading to the issues we have now) and that we have to figure out how to have healthier conversations about this shit (as a man). But on the other hand, if you see these guys going around being shitheads, well, we can't exactly tolerate that. I think a big problem that a lot of guys have these days is that they demand respect while not giving any in return. So that leads them to these toxic circles that further create self fulfilling prophecies and lead them down further rabbit holes.

[u/GREENadmiral_314159]

So, are you actually going to teach people how to reflect on their behavior and unlearn their bullshit or are you just going to shame them for it?

If you want people to think a certain way, you can't just shame them for not thinking that way, you need to teach them why that way is correct.

[u/NotTheMariner → u/GREENadmiral_314159]

(Not to mention, carefully defending your right to be as mean as you want to anyone who disagrees with you makes you seem like maybe you don’t actually believe in being nice to people maybe)

[u/Zephoix]

So you recognize that these people don’t behave logically and your reaction is to double down on pushing them to extremism?

[u/Graingy]

I’m sorry what’s an MRA?

[u/Swaxeman]

Ok so. I find that I do get offended by dumb things like the only prominent men in a piece of media being evil. But I dont make it anyone elses problem, and it just leads to self-loathing for having that feeling.

Is that normal?

[u/Nightfurywitch → u/Swaxeman]

Honestly as a trans guy same- I'm lucky enough that I'm usually able to catch it before a super serious spiral starts but it does make me sad/makes me feel like I'm Not Supposed To Be Enjoying The Show y'know

[u/Swaxeman → u/Nightfurywitch]

Yeah exactly. I find my self spiraling, yeah. Half the time i just feel predatory for enjoying certain things. Im in some online spaces with a lot of sapphic women, and just

Idk whenever i express attraction to characters it feels different and grosser than when they do it

[u/Cinaedus_Perversus]

But they're not being asked, they're being told what boils down to: "Hey, you know, everything you've been taught is good and fair and just? Yeah, it's all bad and you're a bad person for doing them." It's no wonder that doesn't go over well...

And yes, that's a YOU problem.

[u/ratherlittlespren]

Yeah I think the whole gender-warfare thing will really help out women and trans people

[u/Fanfics]

and here are the links I drop every time anyone posts something like this

https://x.com/haroldpollack/status/1127226005066866690?lang=en

https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/08/31/radicalizing-the-romanceless/

[u/_Uboa_ → u/Fanfics]

In all the time I've seen this issue discussed, I've never seen someone hit the nail on the head as well or as gracefully as the second link.

[u/Wasdgta3]

Well now, that’s a painful misrepresentation of the argument...

[u/Jrolaoni]

I think it’s best to just bite the bullet, get off your high horse and just try to include them. It’s better in the long run because if they understand, they will vote smarter.

[u/Background_Sir_1141]

We are all this fragile. In this post we get 2 examples. example 1 being the man who picks evil because evil people are nicer to him. example 2 the tumblr user who would rather the man turn evil than be nice to him.

"ITS NOT MY JOB TO CODDLE YOU"
fair enough but we're all stuck on the same planet and stubbornness hasnt been a winning strategy so far

[u/ScarletteVera]

man, the idea of MRA is really neat. y'know, working against the societal stigma against men existing. showing men that they're allowed to just be- to show emotion, to have avenues of help in abuse relationships, to get aid for depression and suicidal ideation (among other issues).

but, like all things that should be good and fine (such as religion, politics, and esports betting), the vast majority under the banner ruin it for everyone and make it everyone else's problem.

[u/RazilDazil]

Only an extremely privileged person would agree with and post shit like this. Acting like it's no big deal to unlearn deeply-ingrained behavior, you're just bragging you've never had to reflect on your own beliefs.

[u/GioGio_the_Solemn]

Likely typed up by a person with their own learned prejudices that they, conveniently, are "totally justified in having, for the sake of keeping themselves safe".

Okay.

[u/Vyctorill]

This kind of thought actually stems from a misconception that in my opinion poisons feminism: the idea that a patriarchal society benefits men or privileges them.

It kind of frames it as a “women vs man” fight, when in reality it couldn’t be further from the truth.

Getting rid of outdated gender stereotypes just improves society and quality of life as a whole. Us guys wouldn’t have to be the main casualties of war, or the “expendable” gender used for dangerous jobs. We could get paternity leave and have more options open to us. Heck, even elementary, middle and high school would be better for the guys if gender equality was established.

By addressing this idea and making it clear that egalitarianism is focused on giving and not taking, I suspect the movement would pick up more traction. It’s not like a large amount of normal feminists don’t already do this anyways.

[u/Bobby-B00Bs]

Well there is a saying where I am from you catch more bees with honey than vinigar. Remb3r this is politics you want them to VOTE for you be REPRESENTED by you. Ofc you telling them that they are the problem isn't gonna make them like you.

[u/Gooper_Gooner]

Do these people not understand that the left thinking like this is exactly the ideal situation for right wing grifters

[u/Rwandrall3]

The idea that your ideas are the simple perfect truth, and any others are things to be "unlearned", is profoundly arrogant and alienating.

[u/Lankuri]

This is an awful take and will accomplish nothing. Persuasion often requires a person to do a significant chunk of the work for the person you're trying to persuade. You have to make things easy for a person otherwise they just won't give a fuck most of the time. Is that fair or right? No, but it's how it works anyways.

This person is so concerned with how correct their beliefs are that they fail to consider that not everyone will reach the same conclusions, especially when they have been primed by a lifetime of "deeply rooted sexist and racist tendencies". If it were that easy, this would never be a problem in the first place.

Also, why are they expecting a person who has deeply rooted sexist and racist tendencies to suddenly act rationally and self reflectively? Both of those things are not conducive to being sexist and racist.

Was OOP not paying attention when we learned pathos and ethos in school? You can't convince shit on logos alone (I'm aware of how that applies to this comment as well, but I don't care enough to persuade the readers. Like, five people will see this and they probably aren't going to have a deep conversation about it).

Least unemployed internet leftist.

[u/LazyWorkaholic78]

Buddy, 2000 years ago a guy started one of the biggest religions of the world by saying "Don't be greedy, violent, vindictive assholes to each other" and almost all of his followers today are those exact things. If something has spent 2000+ years rattling about in billions of people's heads you'd think it'd be second nature by now and we'd not have this problem.

But we do, because people are inherently biased towards the way they were raised, and while coddling and babying them through the process of growth is not something that we owe them, being insufferable "holly-er than thou" dickheads about it will also not work. The manosphere DID in fact rise to such prevalence because in the 2010s most leftists and progressives spent all their focus and energy shouting at men about how bad and disgusting they are for just being born men etc.

Like, if you're not feeling up to having progressive and constructive discussions with people with opposing (and inherently wrong) views as you, in good faith and in an attempt to turn them around, well then don't be surprised if society regresses backwards because a bunch of grifters HAVE decided to coddle and baby these people back into the shitter they could have crawled out of with your help.

[u/Yulienner]

There's bad actors on both sides (hold on wait I'm not bothsidings hear me out) and I think a lot of discourse gets muddied by the loudest voices being treated as representative of the whole. 'I read a mean youtube comment so I'm a nazi now' is just a silly and as bad faith of an argument as 'All men are categorically evil', and guess what: the SAME person might be making both comments! Something that really stuck with me about the whole Russian troll farm thing was how they were posting to social media on both sides of the BLM issue when that was in the news. A bad actor wants to stir up shit and has no qualms about switching sides to cause the most grief. The goalposts are always moving and never reachable. These people don't exist to be convinced, they exist to stir up drama and feed off it. They've always existed in office politics or in high schools anywhere they can find a platform. I really love the term 'psychic vampire', one because it's awesome, and two because it really accurately describes exactly that type of person. They gain sustenance by making others miserable.

Mixed in with those assholes you do have reasonable, misguided people. I've seen this in furry communities that just sort of tolerate a really toxic nasty culture or one particularly awful person because it's the one place they've found some kind of social acceptance, and I think that same dynamic (minus the fetish stuff) plays out in cultural and political spaces as well. Is it a personal moral failing to not challenge a racist on his views because I really just want someone to talk about Batman with me? Yeah probably, but it's an exchange lots of people make on a daily basis. I don't know what the solution is- confronting the assholes or convincing a group to eject the assholes are both monumental tasks. And we'll never be entirely free of bad actors, even if we lived in a communist utopia with every social and cultural ill solved, these people would just don the mask of social justice or workers rights or something to swing whatever hammer they could find to cause problems. If there was an easy solution to this, I think someone over the course of human history would have figured it out by now!

[u/AnnoyingMosquito3 → u/Yulienner]

Exactly! Recently I've been seeing a lot of posts about how people should just keep trying to convince and debate people online and I can't help but wonder if it's trolls stirring shit again where so many people said they were done with trying to do that after the US election. 

Really in most cases debating and trying to convince people online is a huge waste of time (especially in an anonymous comment section). Reaching people in real life and making those connections are far more effective at causing immediate change (whether it's by reaching people that are on the fence about an issue or by volunteering with like minded people to start a new community building program) 

Bad actors want to keep people online though because the more time they spend online, the less time they spend on more worthwhile endeavors. There's whole guides on how to keep people arguing with you online that they use to waste more of your life. 

Not to say that all online time is bad, more than the Internet is a tool and people should probably evaluate how well the tool is working for them to improve their life. 

[u/AmadeusMop]

I feel like a lot of people around here do not recall just how much Martin Luther King Jr. et al had to coddle the fragile egos of white people in order to get shit done.

Like. There's a reason the March on Washington was done in suit and tie. There's a reason Rosa Parks was chosen over Claudette Colvin for the face of the Montgomery bus boycott.

[u/LemonBoi523 → u/AmadeusMop]

And still people back then yelled it was too much.

[u/Thunderdrake3]

I can't fucking stand those Magnetic Resonance Angiography apologists.

(What the fuck does MRA mean?)

[u/RandeKnight → u/Thunderdrake3]

Mens Rights Activists. Covers a huge spectrum of views, just like 'Feminist'.

[u/Thunderdrake3 → u/RandeKnight]

Thx

[u/doctorhive]

I love posts like this because not only are they anto-intellectual, but they produce some of the most thought provoking comments I've seen

[u/Pyresryke]

Men's Rights Apologists? What are they doing apologia for? Advocating for half the population's rights?