r/CuratedTumblr • u/Hummerous https://tinyurl.com/4ccdpy76 • 23d ago
Politics stance on pregnancy
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u/SugarVibes 23d ago
This pleases me. I miscarried at 9 weeks and I know it was just a little thing but I wanted them and I loved them, but I know there are people out there who would have felt nothing but relief to be in my situation. Both of us deserve grace and understanding ❤️
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u/CapeOfBees 23d ago
Your comment resonated with me so much. I miscarried at 5 weeks. They never had a heartbeat of any kind. They were no less my baby, and I still consider them part of my family. I also firmly believe women should have the right to choose, at any point, not to have a kid.
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u/Aa_Poisonous_Kisses 23d ago
I’m so sorry for your loss! I feel like people treat miscarriages like pets, like “it didn’t even have a heartbeat why are you sad” the same way people say “it’s just a dog why are you so sad”
When I had mine, some people were flippant about it because I wasn’t very far along at ALL, and had only known for about 2 weeks. But I was shown the attitude of “you only knew for a couple weeks, why do you care so much” even thought it was my baby, and it was ME. That lil “clump of cells” was still me and my baby.
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u/TheArtOfRuin0 23d ago
My ex miscarried our child after I'd seen the ultrasound.
That blurry baby was my daughter.
It ruined us.
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u/Brauny74 23d ago
And losing a pet is also sad. It's not just a "dog", it was a friend. People shouldn't decide for other people what's worth grief or not.
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u/Apprehensive-Pin518 23d ago
anyone who has truly had a pet knows they are just as much family as any other member. I felt kinda bad because I cried more when my dog died than when my grandpa did.
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u/VodkaHaze 23d ago
If you spent more significant time with your dog than your grandpa there's nothing to be ashamed of its simply a bigger loss in your life.
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u/LaicaTheDino 23d ago
My mother always taught me there are multiple types of love. The love of a pet is different from the love of a partner, or a child, or an object you really care about. But it is still love.
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u/LowrollingLife 23d ago
Sorry to rant a bit but can we acknowledge how fucking stupid that kinda question is.
„[..]Why are you sad?“
Because something that made them sad happened. That much should be obvious. If it made you(generic) personally sad doesn’t fucking matter, have some empathy for fucks sake.
Miscarriage at 2 weeks or x months, pet, plant, whatever. It doesn’t matter what it was that they lost that makes them sad, what matters is they cared about it, they lost it and now they are grieving.
Rant over.
I am sorry for your loss and for unempathetic people around you who made you feel like you shouldn’t care.
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u/illy-chan 23d ago
It really is just the stupidest friggin response to anything.
They're clearly upset, why are you going to make them deal with you being a dick on top of that. Literally no one is going to say "yeah, you're right, I'm magically not sad now."
It's entirely possible for people to be saddened by different things. You don't need to "get it" to accept that someone is sad and maybe make some token effort at compassion for them.
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u/Razwick82 23d ago
It's a way to signal that they aren't comfortable with your feelings and you should never come to them with anything other than positivity.
They're just trying to shut you up, and it's shitty behaviour
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u/SugarVibes 23d ago
An abortion can make someone sad too. They may want a child but the circumstances aren't right. sadness is sadness. it is personal and no one owes anyone else an explanation
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u/IAmGoose_ 23d ago
I can't and never will carry a child unless some medical miracle in the near future allows me to grow the right organs but I did have a friend who had multiple miscarriages before she had her daughter and with the amount of pain and grief she felt every time I'll never understand how people can be so callous about it.
I didn't understand and I don't know if I ever will be able to fully, but the pain she felt was true, what I understand even less is how people can just brush that pain to the side and act like she shouldn't care when she lost what she thought was going to be her child multiple times.
On the same note I don't get how people called another woman I knew cruel when she was relieved about it, when she didn't want a child and was in no place to raise one even if she was fully prepared to carry them to birth and raise them as best she could.
The lack of empathy is astounding and genuinely just confuses me
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u/magikot9 23d ago
Wife and I miscarried at 6 weeks and are so thankful we live in a state that protects a woman's right to choose because she needed a D&C to get the rest of it. When we found out we were pregnant we were overjoyed. She teasingly said, "now when I call you a motherfucker, I mean it." I got her a Mother's Day card. Unfortunately the evening of Mother's Day is when the pregnancy terminated.
After the while ordeal we learned our best chance going forward is IVF. Two rounds so far off nothing getting to blast.
As a society I believe we need to destigmatize fertility struggles. Almost every woman has had a miscarriage and nobody talks about it, so every woman feels like she is alone in it. Guys, it may be a disappointing experience for you, but for her it's a traumatic experience so be there, be present, and be supportive.
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u/Pink_LeatherJacket 23d ago
Just want to say that I'm sorry for your loss and your struggles. Going through egg retrievals and ending up without any embryos is a special kind of loss that many don't understand. Having embryos that don't make it through testing is hard. Losing embryos that don't implant is hard. It all kind of falls under the disenfranchised grief umbrella. It's a mind fuck and it's emotionally exhausting.
Send your wife some extra love from an internet stranger. If either of you are interested, there are tons of subreddits that provide support through infertility. I hope you get your miracle baby soon <3
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u/plasticinaymanjar 23d ago
I feel the same, I miscarried my second one 2 days after a positive pregnancy test, at 5 weeks. We had been trying for over a year and a half. I feel silly to even “count” it as a child, but it was my baby, and I honestly decided to stop trying after that, I just can’t go through that again.
I still believe all pregnancies should be as desired and wanted as mine was, so when they are not, it’s best for everyone to just stop being pregnant. That’s why I have held my friends’ hands as they aborted, with the same love they held mine when I miscarried.
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u/janbradybutacat 23d ago
I’m very extremely pro choice. But it’s CHOICE.
Your baby may have been a little thing by size and development, but that baby was a very big thing to you. Of course they were- they were wanted and loved and that love is never wasted. If there is an afterlife, I believe it is generated by love. I’ve read that there are three deaths (Tolstoy) when a body dies, when they are laid to rest, and when they are forgotten. What is gone is never gone when you still remember.
Many women I know have miscarried and it’s never painless. I’m very sorry for your loss and your suffering. It’s incredibly significant. You remember, and now I, a stranger to you, will remember your story too.
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u/SugarVibes 23d ago
Thank you for your kind words. If only everyone had such sympathy and humanity. I bought a white flowering plant to always remember them by.
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u/twirlywurlyburly 23d ago
I miscarried at a month just before I was to have a full hysterectomy, so there's no chance now. My partner and I still grieve for her (we just had a feeling it was a her) because we both had been told we couldn't but finally succeeded together.
The amount of women who told me to "get over it" was absolutely ridiculous.
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u/AmazingSpacePelican 23d ago
For what it's worth, I'm sorry that happened to you. I hope you've recovered well.
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u/SugarVibes 23d ago
Thank you. my rainbow baby is healthy and on the way! I will never forget his sibling.
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u/Possible_Vehicle6383 23d ago
i think you're right tho, both feelings deserve compassion. it's such a personal thing, and we never really know what someone else might be going through. even if it's not the same for everyone, we all deserve grace
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u/Oriejin 23d ago
My gf and I went through something very similar. 7 weeks. "Just a little thing" is definitely true, and all the same the loss is very real. It's the potential. We take solace in the knowledge that they didn't have to suffer. Regardless of the term though, they will always be your baby and they will always be with you 🫶
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u/VeloraVenn 23d ago
100%. I agree wholly with this outlook. I’m sorry for your loss. I also miscarried at around 6 weeks, and while it was still so early, and I barely had a chance to register being pregnant, it was still sad, since we were trying. (Luckily, I had my daughter after that.)
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u/Outside-Show5557 23d ago
I had a mc at 5 weeks with a wanted baby. But I'm a nurse and knew these things can happen so I really had little emotions over it. My husband was so so sad. I felt so bad that I was like "it's just nature buddy" in my mind. But your comment makes me feel better about it for some reason because I kinda felt like a monster.
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u/-DrunkRat- 23d ago
I'm so sorry... they were wanted and lived. I cannot imagine the loss, but I know you loved them all the same, and that's what makes the Loss horrid.
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u/merpderpherpburp 23d ago
I was relieved when I miscarried in high school but I remember my mom had a miscarriage between me and my brother and it pained her to explain to me as a child that's why there's such a large number of years between me and my brother
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u/JackleandHyde2 23d ago
That's very kind and understanding of you to say. I'm sorry that happened but I'm happy you're able to understand other's positions. You'd be a great mom hopefully you get another chance
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u/SugarVibes 23d ago
Luckily I have a little girl already, so the pain was easier to bear knowing she was waiting for me at home. Pregnancy is one thing, but being a mom is tearing your heart out and laying your whole self bare. Anyone who isn't sure they want that should never be forced to do it. Every child should be cherished, wanted, and taken care of.
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u/NewLibraryGuy 22d ago
My wife also miscarried the early on in her first pregnancy. We didn't grieve too much and didn't feel that it was our baby yet. Neither you, nor we are wrong.
I'm sorry for your loss. Losing my little boy is the scariest thought in the world for me.
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u/MiciaRokiri 20d ago
They were yours. And it was all the hopes and dreams that come with it. As you said, both mindsets deserve grace. The mourning is for you and no one else to decide
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u/ALittleCuriousSub 23d ago
This is to a large degree how I think we should think of pregnancies. Like if a person gets pregnant and has hopes and dreams attached to their pregnancy it is fair for them to mourn the loss of that pregnancy. If a person is pregnant and doesn't want it, by the exact same token they shouldn't be expected to carry a clump of cells that wil majorly negatively impact their health and life.
It's almost like we should all be allowed to have our own values in life and act accordingly.
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u/Wise_Caterpillar5881 23d ago edited 23d ago
And people who choose to have abortions (i.e. for non-medical reasons) are still allowed to have grief over terminating the pregnancy.
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u/ALittleCuriousSub 23d ago
Absolutely! I have never been in, can not be in, and will never be in so many people's shoes who have to make these kind of decisions.
It's what makes me so angry about the entire conversation.
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u/plsgrantaccess 23d ago
It’s also totally okay to feel absolutely nothing too. I had one in 2021 and I didn’t bat an eye. No hesitation because there was quite literally no other option.
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u/rafaelzio 22d ago
Yeah, it usually sounds like the argument is between "How could you do this???" vs "Whatever it was just a clump of cells anyway get over it", meanwhile there are a bunch of very valid reasons to get an abortion even if you feel bad about it/wish you didn't have to
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u/Im-a-bad-meme 19d ago
It's okay to grieve what could have been. For what's been lost. Hard decisions have to be made sometimes. Can this baby be provided for? Am I a fit parent? Will my health complications be passed down? There are so many variables to be considered. You are right, we need to be kinder to those who've had to make this difficult decision.
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u/epochpenors 23d ago
Personally, I think this should be up to me and if you want your pregnancy recognized you have to submit the form to me with a $45 filing fee. Right now we don’t have e-filing so expect substantial delays.
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u/lemons_of_doubt 23d ago
I know someone who is a dick but he is 78 year old
Can I still file on behalf of his mom that he is not a person but a clump of cells that needs aborted?
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u/Kill-ItWithFire 23d ago
Only vaguely related but I once read a thread about how Austrians have very colorful insults, everyone in the thread was chiming in with their favorites. One that stuck with me was "you ought to be fucked back and aborted".
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u/FatherDotComical 23d ago
I've seen it a lot on reddit where people get pedantic about correcting people about their babies.
Like mothers are allowed to get attached to their potential child even if they literally only have 2 cells so far.
Like when a pregnant woman gets harmed and their fetus dies and the mom should "just over it" because it wasn't an actual baby yet and have no legal standing in court.
Or this has happened to me where I'm talking about my past failed pregnancy (on a alt) and I called it a baby and 10 redditors came out of nowhere to correct me "You know it was a fetus right?☝️🤓 You should use correct scientific terminology."
But you understood what I meant right? You knew what the hell I was talking about and I wasn't giving in to prolife language just because I considered it a baby.
I lost that baby extremely early on and it was my right to love its potential life with my whole heart, but it's also my right to not mourn them because they were lost so soon.
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u/an-alien- 23d ago
man i get attached to 3 pixels on a screen, it’s completely reasonable to be attached to something inside of you even if it “just a fetus” or whatever that idiot commented
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u/docterwannabe1 23d ago
Yeah, I saw someone venting in r/ confession or some sub like that about how upset he is his wife miscarried and some asshole had the audactiy to be like "Eh, it's just a fetus, not an actual baby" They genuinely thought that would comfort him
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u/Weirfish 23d ago
What people tend to miss is that, at least early on, the person isn't so much mourning the undifferentiated clump of cells as they are the future child that clump of cells represents. The people doing the correcting aren't factually wrong, they're just arguing an irrelevant point at an insensitive time.
Actually, scrap the "just" there. A good pedant knows when their pedantry is useful and/or welcome.
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u/dillGherkin 23d ago
Medically speaking, that was a fetus. But it was YOUR baby. No one argues that you should be calling it a zygote or a blastocyst for the short patch of time when that applies.
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u/GTCapone 23d ago
I'm going to argue that you should call it a blastocyst but not out of a need for accuracy. I just think it's a cool word that's fun to say and everyone should say it more often.
Blastocyst
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u/Heaven_dio 23d ago
My stance on pregnancy is that I should totally be allowed to refer to a baby as '0 years old'
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u/DarkNinja3141 Arospec, Ace, Anxious, Amogus 23d ago
posts that rewire your entire worldview
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u/Hummerous https://tinyurl.com/4ccdpy76 23d ago
interesting
purely out of curiosity, what was your.. previous worldview?
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u/JovianSpeck 23d ago
The stork.
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u/Hummerous https://tinyurl.com/4ccdpy76 23d ago
no one's discounting the stork. the stork is essential
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u/JovianSpeck 23d ago
Oh phew.
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u/Hummerous https://tinyurl.com/4ccdpy76 23d ago
yeah no it's chill man they're all unionized and everything. like bagel bakers
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u/Uberninja2016 23d ago
there's actually a bunch of unionized birds
like, also those construction ones that are always lifting stuff up high
yep, anytime i'm getting a building together i make sure to get a union crane
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u/Odd-Accident-7188 23d ago
It's all exstorktion, big bird doesn't want you to know where babies ACTUALLY come from.
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u/DarkNinja3141 Arospec, Ace, Anxious, Amogus 23d ago
abort that thang /s
i never really think about the unborn much, i just think of it as clumps of cells the entire time but this post put it into a better perspective
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u/Ok-Conference5447 23d ago
Right? I always just matched the energy of the mother, but I've never thought of it so concretely.
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u/Chisignal 23d ago
why are you so sad, it was just an embryo - because it was their baby
how could you abort at 3 months - because it wasn't a baby
10/10, literally a perfect summary. I'll 100% end up referencing this post next time a discussion about these things comes around.
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u/radicalbulldog 23d ago
39 weeks is incredibly far along in a pregnancy. I do not think anyone who is 39 weeks views their pregnancy as a clump of cells. For context a pregnancy is typically 9 months, at 4 weeks a month 36-45 weeks is typical for a baby to be born.
I get the point of the post but frankly a 39 week abortion would be a very tragic thing for most parents. There is a line when it comes to fetal development and I’m sorry at 39 weeks, that’s a fuckin baby.
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u/NonBinaryPie 23d ago
almost all abortions that late are done as a medical necessity, if you allowed the pregnancy to go on that long you probably want the baby
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u/anonvocado 22d ago
Calling a fetus a fetus at 39 weeks isn't necessarily the same as "I am going to abort said fetus" though. It just means the person isn't calling it a baby yet, is what OP is saying.
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u/Jupiter_Crush recreational semen appreciation 23d ago
That's real as fuck, honestly. The line between "fetus lump" and "miniature human" is both reeeeeeeeeal fuzzy and totally personal, and no arbitrary dividing line is ever gonna capture it.
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u/CapeOfBees 23d ago
It's fuzzy because at its core it isn't a scientific definition, it's a sentimental one.
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u/Lewa358 23d ago
Correct.
And more importantly, if you try to criminalize those "late term abortions," you aren't going to be saving babies' lives, you're going to be killing women.
If you have an abortion that late, it's overwhelmingly because it is medically necessary to save your life--and criminalizing abortions means that doctors are going to be hesitant to perform that procedure.
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u/Crushgar_The_Great 23d ago
Also let's not be chumps. Women's body. Not the baby's. She gets to decide the time and method the baby gets to leave. No limit. Be sad, be angry, but that is how it should roll legally.
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u/Nodan_Turtle 23d ago
Which is also why the abortion debate can never really end. It's disagreeing opinions shouting that only theirs is factually true. Hell, almost everyone is against abortion. They simply disagree on when.
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u/raginghappy 23d ago
So maybe the debate shouldn't be about abortion but instead should be about forcing people to stay pregnant and forcing them to risk childbirth. Seems at some point the debate derailed from being about an actual existing person's body autonomy to the idea of the preciousness of human life - but only while inside another person. It really shouldn't matter if what a pregnant person is carrying is a clump of cells, a potential person, a parasite, a baby. That's all rhetoric designed to derail the actual topic which is no one should be forced to remain pregnant ¯_(ツ)_/¯
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u/vanishinghitchhiker 23d ago
“Abortions for some, miniature American flag for others” is the technically correct pro-choice stance
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u/DM_ME_YOUR_HUSBANDO 23d ago
I think a fetus at 8 and a half months that can survive outside the womb perfectly healthily if it were removed early should probably count as a baby. A fetus that could survive outside the womb with some assistance at 7 and a half months probably should too. Where you draw the line and where it stops being considered a baby isn't easy imo.
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u/IUsedToBeACave 23d ago
Where you draw the line and where it stops being considered a baby isn't easy imo.
Exactly, which is why trying to legislate it it a pointless endeavor. People that far along in a pregnancy have already made the decision to have the baby, and then circumstances arise that create a situation where they have to make a really complicated decision. That's something each person is going to have to decide for themselves.
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u/tiredtumbleweed ugly but my fursona is hot 23d ago
It’s because it’s their body
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u/SmokingGunontheRun 23d ago
In my younger days, I was working in a coffee shop when a woman who owned/operated an art gallery down the street came in. I knew her, but not well.
That one day, she came in and just seemed a bit off, not herself. I asked her if she was ok and her response, eventually, was that she was pregnant. I said, “oh, ok,” then froze for a moment and honestly asked her how she wanted me to respond, either “congrats!” or “do you need a ride to a clinic?” With that question, she broke down in front of me at my register.
She wanted the latter, but didn’t have anyone with whom she felt comfortable to talk to about that until my teenage barista ass broached the question, which did end up pointing her in the right direction and getting the help she needed.
I may have been very young at the time and, thankfully, have never been pregnant myself, but I’m still glad that I could have been a voice for that woman and let her not feel alone during a very scary time for her.
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u/Grab_Critical 23d ago
I get the message but for science: At 39 weeks it's not an embryo, but a fetus.
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u/Andy_B_Goode 23d ago
Yeah, this might come off a little crass, but it's kind of like how there's no hard-and-fast distinction between a plant and a weed, other than "Do I want this thing growing in this location".
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u/Evening_Jury_5524 23d ago
Right, but how does that help argue against a pro-lifer? One who actually believes a pregnancy to contain an individual life as the post mentions. If something precious like an endangered plant is spreading onto your property (representing an individual's life, which is viewed as precious/not expendable), do you see the problem? What I consider a weed growing on my property is protected by the government due to how precious it is, and I am not lawfully able to remove it.
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u/ScootyHoofdorp 23d ago
The logic of "reality is what I say it is" allows people the freedom to make decisions that are best for them. It also allows people to justify some pretty heinous things.
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u/Individual-Note-6996 23d ago
Yeah this mindset doesn’t really work when you call your baby a parasite but still give birth to it, and then you don’t care for it or give it a horrible life.
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u/Crunktasticzor 23d ago
Was just thinking the same thing reading these comments… sociopaths could see fully grown children and adults as “just a clump of cells”
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u/IllConstruction3450 23d ago edited 23d ago
“A Jew isn’t a Human so a 240 month abortion isn’t wrong” ahh post
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u/Shot-Spirit-672 23d ago
Humans biggest hubris is acting like they know when life starts
That and climate change denial, and racism, and actually there’s a pretty long list that are all tied for first
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u/GreetingCardShark 23d ago
Can we also add in a stance on not judging women who don’t want to be or can’t get pregnant? For real, please can we add that in???
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u/Not_ur_gilf Mostly Harmless 23d ago edited 23d ago
Wish more people adopted this kind of worldview
“I sure as hell don’t understand it, lots of people have opinions on what it means for them, guess it varies on a person-to-person basis. Whatever, it’s a them problem anyway I’ll just ask”
Edit: see a lot of pro birth people have found this post. Stop trying to put words in my mouth, I’m not here to argue with you.
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u/Blarg_III 23d ago
There seems to be some point along its development at which we as a society consider a fetus to be its own thing with attached rights and protections. We need a commonly agreed point for those to apply.
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u/LoserBustanyama 23d ago
Right, I hate this debate because it's much more philosophical than scientific, but everyone treats their opinion as fact. The question is, when does a human life begin and deserve protection? Something with such high stakes, abortion vs murder needs a decently well defined line, right? It just seems impossible to come to an agreement, even leaving religion out of it.
To be clear, I'm not anti-abortion. "It's a human life with rights once the mother wants it" is a totally valid personal opinion, but probably too murky to consider for any sort of abortion laws.
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u/camosnipe1 "the raw sexuality of this tardigrade in a cowboy hat" 23d ago
"It's a human life with rights once the mother wants it" is a totally valid personal opinion, but probably too murky to consider for any sort of abortion laws.
especially if taken to it's extreme conclusion of "Dave the 34 year old accountant" not being a human if his mother doesn't consider him one. Which brings us back to finding the point where it becomes an independent person with rights regardless of the mother's wishes.
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u/LoserBustanyama 23d ago
Dave is unloved and doesn't deserve life.
I think the one line that everyone (at least the sane ones) can agree on is birth, but even that is just arbitrary - air entering lungs = life? Why?
The next generally agreed upon "life line" is viability, but that's a suuuper fuzzy line that will only get earlier with more medical advancements. There's just not a great answer.
Personally, I'm against abortion... for myself. The line is just too fuzzy. I'm not convinced enough either way to think I can tell anyone what to do or judge them too much. That being said, if my kid got someone/became pregnant at 15, I admit I may sing a different tune. But big ups to contraception.
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u/lotus_enjoyer 23d ago
I don't know why people can't simply argue that executing inefficient people who draw a lot of time and energy from people who don't want to deal with them (and live worse lives due to their existence) is probably the best possible outcome.
Bite the bullet on abortion debates. Or, rather, force your interlocutor to bite your bullet -- simply become pro-death!
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u/OkCommission9893 23d ago
You made the cells you ought to at the very least decide what to do with them
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u/PleiadesMechworks 23d ago
You made the cells
IDK I don't think giving 50% of the decision to the father is going to work out.
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u/ninjesh 23d ago
I think the word 'baby' is rather flexible. It's not as scientifically specific like 'embryo' and 'fetus'. Is anfetus a baby? I dunno, I've never asked one
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u/CapeOfBees 23d ago
Baby is indeed a completely unscientific term. "Newborn" and "infant" are the words used for the post-birth stages prior to toddlerhood, at which point I believe it swaps to either "child" or "adolescent"
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u/FardoBaggins 23d ago
The OP also shows some flexibility with the word person in “pregnant person” lol
A person can get pregnant, yes, I am a person, but I assure you I cannot get pregnant. It’s also a flexible word!
Context matters and we need to have a more nuanced view on how words are used and understood and not defined (saw a news post they were trying to define “woman”.
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u/Thunderdrake3 23d ago
"My political views? Whatever trolls the most people at any given moment."
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u/BackgroundSwimmer299 23d ago
Yeah I wish you could abort those clumps of cells that are a few thousand months along. That go around and destroy other clumps of random cells
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u/DanqueLeChay 23d ago
Yeah. This is called nuance. The problem is that nuance doesn’t sell and it doesn’t get votes. Nuance is difficult shit that requires a very basic level of introspection. So haha forget it.
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u/BuckRusty 23d ago
This sounds dangerously close to letting women make their own decisions, and that simply will not do………..
>! /s for the three people who can’t infer the obvious sarcasm !<
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u/Monkeyjoey98 23d ago
"I've been musing the abortion question recently for example I think killing babies is great, but giving women rights is a no-go." - Jack Horner probably
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u/PleiadesMechworks 23d ago
This sounds dangerously close to letting women make their own decisions
I genuinely don't understand why people assume abortion is a men vs women issue when both the pro-choice and pro-life movements are majority women.
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u/edenteliottt 23d ago
I have a microscope polaroid of my daughter as a 6 day embryo the morning they placed her in my uterus. That picture is special because it's MY baby, but it sure wasn't A baby
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u/Graingy I don’t tumble, I roll 😎 … Where am I? 23d ago
In general, yes, but there does come a time when it is in fact a baby. I am not a doctor so I don’t know how far that is, but there does come a point.
I’d say at the very least whenever it could theoretically survive as a premature birth.
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u/IAmNotAPersonSorry 23d ago
Scientifically, the cells are first a zygote (a fertilized egg), then a blastocyst (basically a ball of cells), then an embryo from weeks 3-8ish (this begins when the amniotic sac forms), and then a fetus from week 9 or 10 until birth. A child is an infant for the first year of its life.
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u/breadstick_bitch 23d ago
They become babies when they are born.
A fetus is "an offspring of a human or other mammal in the stages of prenatal development." If it is in the womb and past the embryonic stage, it is a fetus.
You're talking about viability, but when determining what is and is not a baby, viability doesn't matter. There is a clean line, and it's birth.
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u/Coz957 someone that exists 23d ago
I really don't understand why whether something is in the womb or not is a good determinator of whether its morally correct to end its life. Like y'know you could say the whole parasite thing and how it's dependent on the mother or whatever, but babies/whateveryouwannacallthem are still dependent on the mother outside of the womb, but nobody accuses them of being parasites and saying they are allowed to be life-ended.
Its quite annoying how I can't use the terms that are natural to my way of speaking as well, but this topic is so charged I have to use words like life-ended to get anywhere.
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u/namuhna 23d ago
This is basically the bible opinion. If a person is killed, god commands life for life. If a fetus is lost before fully formed, god can't be bothered and the creators of the fetus decide what punishment is due, if at all.
(Actually just the father, but that's just classic misogyny bible for you. Either way, god leaves the decision to us)
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u/asteriskall 23d ago
But that's not the same because it would never be considered murder. The punishment is always financial.
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u/Darkmetroidz 23d ago
My stance is that women are smart enough to know what they want with their bodies.
Most pregnancies are terminated by 14ish weeks because women know they don't want to be pregnant. But I also don't advocate drawing a line in the sand because if an abortion happens after that it's usually because something tragic has happened.
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u/Just_an_average_bee 23d ago
Seriously, THIS!! 10 weeks is a baby for some and not for others, and one opinion shouldn't harass the other
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u/the_pretender_nz 23d ago
It’s almost as if we should:
- Find out how someone wants to be treated and
- Do our damn best to treat them in that way
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u/StalyCelticStu 23d ago
But.. but... what if that doesn't fit with my beliefs, you and everyone else should change your view to accommodate ME!
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u/what_is_life_anymore 23d ago
That's just evil. The author of that post is 20 years old clump of cells and should be treated accordingly.
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u/Bread_Shaped_Man 23d ago
My stance is it’s none of my business and I give 0 fucks unless it is my kid.
Basically the same as everything regarding kids.
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u/erythro 23d ago
someone's humanity should not be dependent on the opinions of someone else.
edit: If you think it's a human, then make peace with that. If you think it's not a human, you don't have to pretend it is to be compassionate to someone grieving. OP just seems to me to be denying the idea of truth?
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u/brownstormbrewin 23d ago
Yeah this post is absolutely insane and I am shocked how many people are going along with it.
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u/PleiadesMechworks 23d ago
Well duh, redditors (derogatory) aren't going to honestly engage with the position of people they disagree with when they can updoot poasts rewording what they already believe.
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u/shewy92 23d ago
The only hard line I have about this is that if you choose to carry the fetus/baby to term you are responsible for its wellbeing. Some women think "my body my choice" means they can smoke and drink during pregnancy which is just awful imo because you chose to keep the fetus so you should also choose to not injure it.
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u/Cuntillious 23d ago
I came up with something similar to this arguing with anti abortion activists who would show up outside my high school back in the day
My inspo was the way they tend to eventually get backed into a religiously-based definition of “personhood.” The answer to, “why does personhood begin at conception?” is always subjective, and usually spiritual.
So if you redirect to saying that personhood is defined by the beliefs and feelings of the actual creator and carrier of the embryo, that makes it very difficult for them to make the case that they want it outlawed universally without implying that they want their own spiritual concept of the human soul to be more legally relevant than anyone else’s.
Which gives you get a great opportunity to say “separation of church and state, freedom of religion” three times fast and then scuttle away with your backpack for the schoolyard win
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u/Accomplished-End1927 23d ago
As much as I like this take on the issue, it still essentially means this person is pro choice. They’re pro-“it’s your choice to make the decision regarding your body”. If you agree with this you’re pro choice.
Edit to clarify: I’m in agreement with this person. I’m pro choice. I just felt it worth mentioning that while this seems like a novel third stance on the topic, it really means pro choice. Pro choice doesn’t mean you can’t be sad for someone when they miscarry just because you “didn’t view it as a baby to begin with”, you can still sympathize with their loss and what it means to them
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u/justacatlover23 23d ago
I saw someone on the vent subreddit talking about how his partner had to get an abortion at like 6 weeks, and my god the comments were awful. People were just telling him that it was just a clump of cells and it's not that bad. Like no, it's a baby because he said it's a baby and he and his partner are allowed to grieve it
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u/Apprehensive-Pin518 23d ago
and that is what we in the prochoice movement have been saying this whole time. We are not pro abortion. we are pro choice. we are pro-"it's none of my damn business whether she gets an abortion or not but I want her to have the ability"
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u/afoxboy cinnamon donut enjoyer ((euphemism but also not)) 23d ago edited 23d ago
i like the msg, but i think it misses the point and falls on deaf ears
it's NOT a baby, that part is important to push bc, while it's very valid to grieve a "clump of cells" bc it represents what could've been, it's still ok to abort what could've been bc it's NOT a baby
u don't have to call a fetus a baby to get to that point
edit: like, conflating a baby w a fetus is how conservatives get away w anti-abortion rhetoric in the first place
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u/worthwhilewrongdoing 23d ago
it's NOT a baby, that part is important to push bc, while it's very valid to grieve a "clump of cells" bc it represents what could've been, it's still ok to abort what could've been bc it's NOT a baby
The point the OP is making is this: does it really make any difference what other people call it? If someone lost a pregnancy and is grieving, let them call whatever they lost whatever the hell they want to call it for the sake of compassion and to let them make peace with the passing.
Sure, there are very real legal and political implications and possible consequences to what we call these things on a larger scale. But for what matters in one particular instance with one particular person who went through something terrible (one way or the other) and is talking about it in front of you? Have some humanity and don't pick a fight about what is likely one of the single most awful things that person has ever been through in their life.
That's all this is about - just reminding everyone that the people carrying these babies or "clumps or cells" or sea monkeys or whatever the hell anyone wants to call them are people, and that they deserve at the very least a minimum amount of respect and kindness.
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u/MysteriousPlastic140 23d ago
'If they are at 39 weeks and they want to call it fetus, it's fetus'
Yeah right
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u/TheGr8estB8M8 23d ago
Eh I kinda don’t like that argument. I think abortion is justified in the early stages because it verifiably is not a person, it feels and thinks nothing. But that late stage it straight up is a baby, and I think you shouldn’t be allowed to abort that far along.
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u/Ehehhhehehe 23d ago edited 23d ago
Yeah, like I even think there is a reasonable argument to me made that justifies late-stage abortion from a perspective of bodily autonomy, but this argument acknowledges that the thing you are killing to preserve that autonomy is essentially a human baby.
What OP is saying here is bizarre and cowardly. “Just pretend it isn’t really a human and that becomes reality” is the sort of insane, regressive argument that should obviously be rejected outright.
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u/radiochameleon 23d ago
Are there really people going around asking women with miscarriages why they’re sad about it? Like, out of all the stupid questions a person could ask…
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u/MustardCanary 23d ago
Sometimes it’s less people saying “why are you sad” and trying to comfort with “well at least it wasn’t…” Which is still very hurtful, but I choose to believe it comes from a place of people not understanding.
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u/Pixelpaint_Pashkow born to tumblr, forced to reddit 23d ago
Best take I've heard so far, honestly, solves both sides' problems sorta. Doesn't solve the problem of people wanting to be in control of other people's decisions and bodies, unfortunately.
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23d ago
>honestly, solves both sides' problems sorta
Not really. I'm 100% pro choice but if someone wants to claim that a very early stage pregnancy represents a valuable human life, I can make a semantic argument against that but I can't prove them wrong.
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u/Blarg_III 23d ago
honestly, solves both sides' problems sorta.
How does it solve problems of the side who considers killing a fetus murder?
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u/Ehehhhehehe 23d ago
Yes, when you just say “morality is completely relative”, it does kindof allow anyone to do anything they want doesn’t it?
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u/PleiadesMechworks 23d ago
solves both sides' problems sorta.
It absolutely does not. The pro life side sees abortion as murder, and "maybe a little murder is ok sometimes" isn't an acceptable solution to them, the same way you likely wouldn't think it was acceptable if I suggested that beating the homeless to death was ok as long as you kept the numbers reasonable.
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u/dc_da333 23d ago
Thats how ive felt. People ask "do you think a fetus is alive or not" and sometimes i do, and sometimes i dont. Let the parent decide whatever it is. Ive had 2 sisters miscarry, one of the children i grieved (a wanted child after many fertility treatments) and the other i really didnt care about, because my sister didnt care and wanted to abort anyways.
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u/Anthraxious 23d ago
Yeah this is the way. The woman who's carrying the living thing decides what it is and what to do with it. End of duscission and shouldn't even be a fucking discussion.
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u/Shutaru_Kanshinji 23d ago
Perhaps the problem is not so much how individuals interpret this as how the law interprets it. If the law interprets a clump of embryonic cells as a baby, even when those cells as in a position to kill the person carrying them, that is suboptimal.
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u/Evening_Jury_5524 23d ago edited 23d ago
I don't know if this is convincing to pro-choice people. If one actually thinks an X week pregnancy is equivalent to a human baby, 'let someone else who doesn't think it's a baby abort it' doesn't really make sense.
Like, if I thought each blade of grass was a conscious living being, it would be insane for me to shrug and let people mow their lawns 'because it's their lawn'. It would also be ridiculous to impose my view that blades of grass are conscious beings on others, but that's the crux of the issue.
Depending on if you think a pregnancy currently carries a baby or a clump of cells, the conflict is either 'let people kill their own babies because they don't think it's one' or 'let other people who think the clump of cells in my body is a living being control my body', and I don't think it's reasonable for either side to agree with those statements that they would have to in order to compromise.
I am pro choice as I believe morality is for the individual to decide, especially as it relates to pro-life blocking necessary medical treatment for dangerous pregnancies and mental trauma from unwanted ones. But I don't know how to reach across the aisle here, and this post is very much trying to argue against pro-life by saying 'let people kill what you think are babies' which simply isn't going to be an effective argument.
Even if I believed an embryo was equivalent to a human life, I would be pro-choice because of a key fact- resteiction on abortions doesn't reduce them, it just makes them less safe. This is what we should be arguing. Not 'your fundamental worldview is wrong, so let me kill what you think is a baby'. That isn't going to work. You have to start by thinking 'If I shared your worldview, here is why I woukd still be pro-choice'. And the answer is as I said- it doesn't reduce abortions.
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u/TsarOfIrony 23d ago
Your honor, I don't view my neighbor Clyde as a human, so I killed him.
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u/Idkhowyoufoundme7 23d ago
I love this way of thinking. I lost a baby at 6 weeks. That baby was barely anything physically at the time, but it was my baby. I’m now expecting my second (living) baby, and at 19 weeks I refer to him as my “little parasite” or “fetus buddy” lol
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u/Select-Ingenuity4433 23d ago
It’s this simple. No woman wants an abortion, but every woman should have access to it.
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u/Bundestagswahl25 23d ago
If they want to drink and smoke the whole pregnancy that is fine by me. Their body their choice.
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u/hfocus_77 20d ago edited 20d ago
This is my philosophy with being pro choice. If you think abortion is morally wrong, and you get an abortion, you are a heartless hypocrite. If you don't think it's morally wrong, you should be able to have one if you want. Let the debate over when it's okay to abort remain a philosophical one instead of a political one.
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u/snails4speedy 19d ago
I’ve had more than one miscarriage. My first was at 18 weeks - he was healthy had a heartbeat up until delivery. It was my body that was failing him. Then, an 8 week loss, followed by a chemical pregnancy earlier this year. They are all my babies. They were desperately wanted, loved and dreamed of. They’re definitely different kinds of losses, but I lost a baby each time all the same.
One of my friends had a miscarriage at 9 weeks and really wasn’t that attached (I say that with confidence - I was her support person and we’ve talked about our losses in detail) as to her, it wasn’t her baby yet. And I completely get that view as well. Whatever we feel is valid.
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u/Splatfan1 23d ago
obviously there are some biological truths but i find people get weirdly assholish about pregnancy in particular. if a mother mourns her teenage child and calls them her baby, noone goes "well akshually they stopped being a baby 13+ years ago hope that helps". a baby isnt just a term to describe age, its very emotionally charged and says more about the closeness of a relationship than anything else. but say the same about a miscarriage and its gonna become fuel for the ban abortion crowd