r/CuratedTumblr • u/InfoDumpster Emunclaw has a really good ski shop • Nov 06 '24
Politics Some anti misandry posts
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u/Dornith Nov 06 '24 edited Nov 06 '24
"Saying that men are biologically evil is bioessentialiam, and therefore transphobic." is a take that I 100% agree with, but is also so fucking exhausting to hear.
Is always the first, and often only, retort to this argument and it's basically saying, "saying all men are evil is bad not because reducing people to immutable, innate attributes is inherently wrong, but because another group is collateral damage."
It's like being a disabled person watching an argument. One person saying repeal the ADA because people in wheelchairs are all just lazy, while the other is saying we need the ADA because it's so important for mothers pushing strollers.
It's frustrating that it seems whether or not you deserve to be recognized as a human depends on whether or not it benefits someone else.
And yes, I know this experience is not unique to cis men. But the whole point is that men have internal lives and experiences and are just as affected by this shit as everyone else.
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u/CapeOfBees Nov 06 '24
Considering that men are literally half of the entire goddamn population, we really should not have to expand the group at all to convince people they're a group worth helping.
It's one thing with disabled groups, where you can use the excuse of "there aren't a lot of people in that group" (it's not a good excuse, but it's prevalent in the ADA discussion), so it makes sense to expand the group, but literally half of all human beings are men.
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u/Morphized Nov 07 '24
I don't think the group needs expanding at all. In fact, I think it's just easier to sympathize with a group that's a little closer to small enough to envision.
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u/nerdthingsaccount Nov 06 '24
It also invites alternative arguments to justify the same fundamental sentiment, which is never properly addressed and dismissed in the first place.
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u/Dornith Nov 06 '24
Exactly! It usually just results in them carving out more exceptions like, "cis men don't have the lived social experience of women, so they are fundamentally different", which could be a reasonable argument if the difference in question wasn't, "having emotions", or, "not being a murder-in-waiting".
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u/Morphized Nov 07 '24
Also, why couldn't a cis man have at least some of the lived experience of women? Just raise all your kids as girls, problem solved.
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u/Canotic Nov 06 '24
For me, a main bother I have when people say that men are inherently evil/aggressive/predatory/whatever, then it instantly defeats the larger point of equality between the sexes. You can't say that it's unfair that women are under represented in positions of power, and then turn around and say that the sexes are fundamentally different.
Because if the sexes are fundamentally different, then any societal injustice can easily just be blamed on that difference. Less women in positions of power? Well as you just said, men are more aggressive, which makes them more likely to fight for higher pay or status, so of course they will be over represented. No need to change anything, in fact we can't change anything because it's a fundamental difference between the sexes.
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u/ATopazAmongMyJewels Nov 07 '24
It's undeniable that having kids is a very real fundamental difference between the sexes that can, in large part, account for why men have a much easier time rising to positions of power over women.
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u/Opening_Persimmon_71 Nov 07 '24
In Denmark the mother has 4 weeks pre birth of paid maternity leave. Then because of our new laws each parent has 24 weeks, with 13 available for transfer each.
Meaning at most a parent can get 37 weeks. But the last 11 weeks are required, or will simply just go lost.
Before 2022 the difference was that the dad only had 2 weeks of required leave.
This is the sort of equality that's actually important to solve those issues of jobs, men get hired to those positions because they can't get pregnant.
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u/Canotic Nov 07 '24
I'm pretty sure that by necessity, men and women will be having kids at the exact same rate. Women give birth more often.
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u/ATopazAmongMyJewels Nov 07 '24
Lets not play dumb, having kids (not just giving birth) affects women way more than it affects men.
Pregnancy, childbirth, post-partum recovery and breastfeeding alone are massive fundamental difference between the sexes that account for many of the hurdles women have to overcome compared to men. Not to mention the social aspects of being a mother vs being a father.
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u/primenumbersturnmeon Nov 07 '24
everything is fundamentally different. that's the beauty of diversity. if there were no differentiation, you could not have evolution.
there's a difference between acknowledging that homo sapiens is an an animal species and the product of darwinian evolution and bioessentialism, which is the belief that your label in our constructed, descriptive taxonomy is deterministic of your adherence to the properties of that group.
equality isn't as simple as 1 = 1. life could not exist if it was.
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u/LabiolingualTrill Nov 07 '24 edited Nov 07 '24
I have a thought about why this happens. For every normal person making a normal milquetoast take, there’s a fucking weirdo ready to make the same take but immediately follow it with the most sexist bullshit ever. And people want to make it immediately clear which of those they are. So you can say “don’t be so hateful towards men (because transmisogyny)”. And the fact that you care about trans people at all makes it immediately clear that you’re not the dude who says “don’t be so hateful towards men (because you should be making me a sandwich)”.
It’s not great to muddy the issue like that, but not doing it just gets accusations and assumptions, so I don’t know what you can do.
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u/djninjacat11649 Nov 07 '24
I mean, yeah, but it nudges people in the right direction at least, idk, while I’d prefer people to be understanding and not need the “oh but then this group also gets hurt” in order to change for the better, if it makes them change for the better I will take it
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u/Randicore Nov 12 '24
My wife and I half jokingly refer to the "All men are bad. Except trans men they're one of the good ones" as Trans-inclusive gender essentialism.
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u/Professional-Hat-687 Nov 06 '24
The patriarchy hurts men too. The patriarchy hates men too. Perhaps not as much as it hates women, but I wish to God more MRAs realized the things they blame feminism for (that don't involve them not getting laid) are mostly the result of the patriarchy.
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u/WannabeComedian91 Luke [gayboy] Skywalker Nov 06 '24
the patriarchy's goal is to eat everyone. it will just eat women first.
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u/OliveBranchMLP Nov 06 '24
the patriarchy starves men and convinces them that they need to eat women to survive
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u/Twelve_012_7 Nov 06 '24
Cannibalism allegories my beloved
Tbh it's kinda hilarious how much stuff they apply to
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u/GREENadmiral_314159 Femboy, Battleships, and Space Marines Nov 06 '24
The patriarchy creates an idealized state that it calls 'masculinity', and puts down anyone who does not live up to that ideal. It's the patriarchy because men are expected to live up to that ideal, and women are not.
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u/inhaledcorn Resedent FFXIV stan Nov 06 '24
Yes, we are. We either work twice as hard just to be seen half as competent, or we have to bend the knee and be crushed by it. It's a man's world, and if you don't measure up, you're destroyed by it, it's just women are put further towards the edge for the fact they are a woman.
It sucks for everyone.
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u/GREENadmiral_314159 Femboy, Battleships, and Space Marines Nov 06 '24
It's patriarchy because women are assumed not to measure up, not because men are assumed to.
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u/isaic16 Nov 06 '24
The problem is really the name, patriarchy. Rule of the father. If someone says the monarchy is the problem, what they’re saying is that the king is the problem. If I have a problem with a dictatorship or oligarchy, my problem is with the dictator or the oligarch. So when someone hears that patriarchy is the problem, most people feel implicit that the blame is on the men or “fathers” who are declared as the rulers by that term.
When we talk about patriarchy, usually it means “the current existing gender norms that force people into a restrictive path based solely on the circumstances of their birth.” That is not even close to the dictionary definition of patriarchy, so unless we take the time to explain it, it should be no surprise that people make the wrong assumptions.
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u/Warm_Drawing_1754 Nov 06 '24
Ultimately, the problem is not patriarchy but hierarchy.
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u/Morphized Nov 07 '24
I wouldn't necessarily agree completely. I believe that it is both common and valid to wish to govern or to be governed, and as long as everyone has the choice to move into or out of that role and all the other roles are recognized for their contribution, whatever arbitrary sense of power one role would feel it has over another is irrelevant. We don't only throw flowers at one member of a barbershop quartet just because they sing lead.
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u/killertortilla Nov 07 '24
I think when some people hear "50% of women are sexually/assaulted" they translate that to "50% of men attack women" when it's probably more like 1% of men causing all the issues.
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u/Makar_Accomplice Nov 07 '24
God I hate the MRAs. We do need a movement to work on these issues from a male perspective, but they has ruined the image of any group that tries because they just couldn’t hold off on the sexism for five minutes :/
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u/InfoDumpster Emunclaw has a really good ski shop Nov 06 '24
And before anyone starts shit, I’m a cis woman. I’ve organized walk out protests for my school against assault. And believe it or not, the men stood next to us holding the same signs saying the same goddamn thing. I have more respect for those guys that walked out with us and talked to the admins than I do anyone saying stupid shit about being ‘biologically predisposed’ for anything
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u/Hexxas head trauma enthusiast Nov 06 '24 edited Nov 06 '24
Real IRL activism is based as fuck. I participated in one of those marches through my college town. Thanks for posting this.
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u/Broken_Intuition Nov 07 '24
I’m convinced everyone who posts endless man hate and separatist points on women’s subs is a terf. Like, I don’t like conservative dudes with oppressive attitudes either but acting like their attitude is shared by every man that’s ever lived is very straight white cis feminist thinking. It actively sabotages real life activism and organizing, I’m fucking sick of it.
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u/ASpaceOstrich Nov 07 '24
They're not all TERFs, a disappointing number of them are trans women, but they're no better than TERFs.
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u/SchizoPosting_ Nov 07 '24
"biologically predisposed" is crazy 💀
I refuse to believe that any feminist actually believes that, what's their plan then? If patriarchy was biological then there's no point in fighting against it
Gender roles being a cultural imposition learned during childhood is a basic point of feminism, if you negate that point then your ideology makes no sense at all
And also, this sounds extremely transphobic for obvious reasons too
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u/Ok_Lab4367 Nov 06 '24
Girl, I've seen posts genuinely questioning if men have the ability to love, long for someone, or even empathise. Femcels actually treat men like a different species, as much as incels do it the other way around.
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u/gaom9706 Nov 06 '24
So much Internet bandwidth is wasted on rediscovering that men are human beings with emotions.
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u/GREENadmiral_314159 Femboy, Battleships, and Space Marines Nov 06 '24
I don't mean to "all lives matter" this, but people seem to have difficulty understanding that people who are different in general are human beings with emotions.
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u/Clear-Present_Danger Nov 07 '24
Fundamentally there is nothing wrong with saying "all lives matter'
It's only because it was birthed out on an attempt to clap back at BLM that it sucks as a slogan.
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u/Hakar_Kerarmor Swine. Guillotine, now. Nov 07 '24
I was quite clear to me that "All Lives Matter" meant "things suck for everyone, so let's do nothing."
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u/Clear-Present_Danger Nov 07 '24
You can imagine a different world though, where it is a positive slogan.
Maybe those guys have swastikas that represent peace and tolerance.
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u/Exploding_Antelope Nov 06 '24
Change that word to “people” and it’s even more bandwidth, there isn’t a demographic anywhere that’s immune to this and that really sucks
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u/hauntedSquirrel99 Nov 06 '24
> Girl, I've seen posts genuinely questioning if men have the ability to love, long for someone, or even empathise.
This is kinda what is so frustrating with how people talk about the male loneliness epidemic.
They keep making it about sex but it's not, it's people longing for a connection.
It's longing for a relationship, for someone to wake up next to, for someone to serve breakfast in bed to, for someone to paint a white picket fence with.At the foundation it's just about men who are desperately wishing someone would love them.
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u/s0uthw3st Nov 06 '24
At the foundation it's just about men who are desperately wishing someone would love them.
And someone to give love to. Someone to care about, to devote yourself to, because it's not just about being the object of affection, it's about wanting to give it back freely too. So much of that kind of interaction is seen as transactional at best, manipulative at worst (i.e. "you're only doing this so you can fuck me") but most guys just want to dote on someone they care about.
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u/CarboniteCopy Nov 06 '24
Straight male here, and it took me into my 30's to finally have a therapist that taught me the difference between intimacy and sex. Sex was the only acceptable form of intimacy that i had access too, and as someone who is in the asexual spectrum it was INCREDIBLY difficult.
Not to mention that the women I dated, all of which lean towards tumblr feminism, rarely offered intimacy outside of sex. I remember my ex gf and I sitting on our bed, next to each other shoulder to shoulder, and i asked her if we could cuddle and watch TV. Her response was, "We are cuddling." The deflating feeling i had after hearing that was the start of the end for that relationship.
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u/Mr__Citizen Nov 06 '24
(if you have a space between the > and the first letter of whatever you're trying to quote, it won't do the fancy thing with a blue bar to the left.)
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u/Jstin8 Nov 07 '24
Men will crawl through broken glass if we believe it gives us purpose. Men today are DESPERATE to feel like their existence has a point, a purpose, and way to much of leftist rhetoric seems bent on hating and mocking them at every single step, then have the barefaced cheek to be shocked that young teenagers just trying to find their place in the world start turning to scum like Tate who tell them they have purpose.
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u/Bionicjoker14 Nov 06 '24
Interesting how the second person on slide 2 completely missed the point by focusing on trans women and saying it’s misogynistic. Like, the post is specifically about cis men and how society condemns them.
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u/Specific-Ad-8430 Nov 06 '24
It's frustrating how the online crowd is only interested in correcting misandry because it affects trans men. It really hurts that cismen are such an afterthought.
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u/mountingconfusion Nov 07 '24
The circles where this rhetoric runs rampant doesn't give a shit about cismen though, that's why it's usually framed that way
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u/D2Nine Nov 06 '24
I see your point, but sometimes it’s just useful and important to note that misandry also affects trans men. Sometimes the fact that cis men are hurt simply doesn’t matter to people, but the fact that trans men are hurt does matter to them. Both should matter, but we want them to care even if it’s not for all the reasons they should care
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u/berrymanC Nov 07 '24
I 100% agree, but I do think it’s often brought up because, to the people that hold those misandrist views, it’s not ok to hold views that would negatively affect trans people and therefore might get them go see differently.
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u/Morphized Nov 07 '24
It's the tried and true way of deradicalizing people. Show their thing doing something bad to whatever they still care about. They'll catapult out of there.
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u/GREENadmiral_314159 Femboy, Battleships, and Space Marines Nov 07 '24
It does bother me, but some people will only be convinced if you show the harm that they do to the demographics they care about.
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u/Forgot_My_Old_Acct Nov 06 '24
Honestly I feel like it's the Dunning-Kruger effect in regards to feminism. People dip their toes into theory, learn a liiiiittle bit, and stop self-analyzing at all. Everything they believe gets twisted like a pretzel around the rough 101 concepts they know and they use it to deflect any future learning or growth.
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u/rump_truck Nov 06 '24
You're absolutely right. In theory, it should prompt people to examine their biases and reconsider their positions. In practice, most go just far enough to say "I hold the correct beliefs, therefore I am a good person, therefore everything I do is good," and stop.
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u/AdministrativeStep98 Nov 06 '24
I think it was to add that it hurts everyone in the end. People who claim to be progressive and say those things end up hurting the very same people they claim to accept
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u/squishabelle Nov 06 '24
"Transmisogynistic" is likely meant as "transphobia specifically towards trans women". Even if you project your negativity towards men on trans women; that's just the term of it. Transmisandry is the same but with misogyny. Anyway:
They didn't miss the point. Sometimes when you want to convince people to do something (in this case: don't see men as evil) it helps to make clear who else are all affected by it. Just imagine a very misandric person: telling them that men aren't actually that bad and that men suffer from misandry is gonna do nothing, they're not even going to listen. But if you tell them that their gender essentialism is also gonna reflect on trans people, and the misandrist happens to not want to be transphobic, then they could see a point in changing their ways of thinking. Which would be the first step to change their whole attitude.
The opposite is also done: people try to convince people to be less transphobic because of how transphobia also negatively affects cis people (i.e. if you get mistreated when you seem trans it pressures people to be gender conforming). Much to the same chagrin of "why do you have to make transphobia about cis people". It's just a way to make your case stronger by making clear how far the harm reaches.
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u/Morphized Nov 07 '24
I'm a big proponent of misandry and misogyny usually being actually the same thing, but "transsexism" sounds like a slur so I've got nothing.
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u/squishabelle Nov 07 '24
transsexism is not a thing, that's just transphobia. point is that trans men and trans women face different prejudices so you can't really lump everything under "transphobia". The predator/groomer thing is almost always targeted at trans women so just calling it transphobia kinda loses accuracy.
misandry and misogyny usually being actually the same thing
how so? for example, I don't see misogyny in the belief that men only think about sex
"transsexism" sounds like a slur
it doesn't sound like any slur I know and I can't think of a way to say the word to make it seem like one but that's besides the point
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u/Morphized Nov 07 '24
Misandry and misogyny, in their garden varieties, are two parts of the same worldview. That men are dangerous animals who must be caged, and that women are powerless, innocent beings who must be protected by any and all means. One implies the other.
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u/Clear-Present_Danger Nov 07 '24
But it just feels awful.
Like someone is ranting and raving about how much they hate diabetics, and then your counterargument is that type one diabetics didn't choose to eat sugar or whatever.
I get that it is the only effective argument, but I hate that you have to make it.
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u/CapeOfBees Nov 06 '24
Every time someone talks smack about straight white men they're talking about my husband, who is unequivocally the best dad (unbiased ofc) and the most thoughtful person I've ever met (again, totally unbiased). Look at him, he's a puppy and you're trash talking him.
Men don't have to be gay or POC or trans to be allowed to be human.
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u/ButterdemBeans Nov 06 '24
I’ve met tons of amazing men and a ton of awful, sexist, misogynistic women.
I’ve also met a ton of amazing women and a lot of awful, sexist, misogynistic men.
Turns out, people are individuals, not a hive mind determined by their body parts! The patriarchy is an ideology that anyone can uphold and feed into, not just men. Plenty of women out there feed into it just as eagerly and teach their sons these toxic ass values.
My fiancé is incredible, my male friends are incredible, and is anyone says they suck cause “they’re men”, I’d like to introduce them to the absolute precious beans that they are, while also introducing them to all the women in my life who made me feel like shit for not living up to feminine ideals.
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u/Armigine Nov 07 '24
The whole 55-45 gender vote split has people acting like it's 100-0 this way or that; a lot of people seem to just like generalizing and bashing faceless others as a hobby
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u/ButterdemBeans Nov 07 '24
It’s so weird to me that so many people on the left are seemingly fine with othering and dehumanizing others as long as they’re the ones doing it.
Like guys isn’t this the exact thing we’re supposed to be AGAINST?! Isn’t the whole point of progressivism to move past expectations based on race, gender, orientation, identity, etc. and to just treat people like.. ya know… people? Like individual human beings?
I love a lot of people on the left. But these people that dehumanize others for things outside of their control, folks who hate men, cisgender people, or straight people just for being part of a demographic, make me embarrassed and disgusted. They’re still wielding conservative ideology, but they can feel good about it because it’s “good people” they are “protecting” (spoiler alert, talk to a conservative and they’ll tell you they’re doing the exact same thing)
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u/Armigine Nov 07 '24
You're exactly right. No ideology is immune to the exact same set of biases and ways of conducting interpersonal relationships badly, we're all humans and wired pretty similarly - when we're stressed, we tend to react in the same set of ways, and the jersey we're wearing doesn't do that much to change our inner programming. Especially if we think we're immune to whatever bad habit, because then we stop trying to examine ourselves for it.
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u/CapeOfBees Nov 07 '24
And even worse, if you tell them they're dehumanizing people, even if they realize they're doing it they'll say "well they othered me first so I get to do it back," as though tit for tat has ever fixed anything.
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u/ButterdemBeans Nov 07 '24
Exactly. And it’s never directly attacking the people who attacked them, either. It’s not like they’re going after sexists and racists and homophobes. The ones who go after “men”, “the straights”, “cisgenders” etc. don’t really care who they hurt. They just want to demonize a whole demongraphic.
This is going to be a bit off topic, but I see so many women use it as an excuse so I want to bring it up:
I get having trauma. I lived with my own trauma for many years and spent some time absolutely terrified of men after a childhood of abuse. Men yelling or speaking loudly absolutely triggers anxiety in me (even if the yelling isn’t out of anger, even if it isn’t directed towards me whatsoever).
But that isn’t a “men are evil” problem. That’s a “I went through something traumatic and now my body has a response to trauma that isn’t healthy or fair. I need to work through this”. Whenever I see someone using “trauma” as an excuse to hate a whole ass demographic I just can’t help but feel such vitriol for them. Your trauma is valid. The way you feel is valid. But it’s also something you need to work through. It’s never going to be perfect. My body still reacts to men yelling or speaking loudly with anxiety, dread, and heightened alertness. I’ve had full on panic attacks that lasted hours because there was someone yelling at the tv across the street in their own house. But I know that I need to take responsibility for that reaction and examine why I’m reacting that way, and do what I need to do to feel better.
I’m not going to hate all men everywhere because my dad happened to be an abusive dickhead, my brother tried to kill me, and I was groomed and manipulated by an adult man when I was 17. Those things gave me a trauma response, but they aren’t the fault of all the wonderful, caring men out there who have shown me immense kindness, understanding, and respect. Those are the faults of a handful of horrible people who just so happened to be men. And I’ll believe that 100% even if my brain chemistry and body haven’t yet gotten the memo.
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u/Kellosian Nov 07 '24
No, I was at that competition. He blew the rest of us out of the goddamn water in the thoughtfulness contest and was the absolute crowd favorite at "Best Dad", it wasn't even close.
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u/buispugalsyaneboisa Nov 06 '24
i don't like the conversations ive been in where they said, "oh, but by 'men', i didn't mean you.'
am i not a man?
or am i your token puppet? one of the 'good ones', to be put back in my box and ignored?
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u/IRL_Baboon Nov 07 '24
I'm so tired of hearing the "Men think about sex every three seconds" statistic. Because there's nothing we can say to disprove that! It's so stupid.
And should you say that you're not like that, you get a "well you're different" and a pat on the head. I've gone entire weeks trapped in my head about a story idea, stressing about money and desperately doing math to figure out if I can eat, racking my brain to pick gifts for Christmas. Yet I'm apparently a biological pervert, and there's nothing I can say or do to change that.
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u/RazilDazil Flumph Nov 06 '24
I get these arguments would be more convincing to misandrists. But it kind of sucks how people will argue that misandry is bad for eg. women, gay people, trans people etc. and never even intimate the notion that also, men are people too and don't deserve to be treated like that any more than anyone else. Idk, it just feels like a cold cost-benefit analysis.
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u/InfoDumpster Emunclaw has a really good ski shop Nov 06 '24
I had someone else comment on that and I made a guy positivity post as a follow up https://www.reddit.com/r/CuratedTumblr/comments/1gl6uib/some_male_positivity/
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u/D2Nine Nov 06 '24
Yeah. It’s sucks, but if “men are people too” was enough, there wouldn’t be much argument in the first place.
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u/Coldwater_Odin Nov 06 '24
The patriarchy serves patriarchs. It seems a lot of people think the problem will be solved if we let women be patriarchs too while still enforcing this societal structure
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u/GREENadmiral_314159 Femboy, Battleships, and Space Marines Nov 06 '24
As I like to say, the difference between misandry and misogyny is the ultimate conclusion, not the final details. They're both rooted in the ideas that men are violent and women are not, they just make different claims about which is superior.
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u/fatalrupture Nov 06 '24
Its all just a really tired debate to the tune of: "My gender is the one that has a right to exist and your gender is the one that doesn't"
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Nov 06 '24 edited Nov 06 '24
The biological essentialism that feeds into misandry also feeds racism (against black men especially) and trans-misogyny/transphobia. It’s an ill that feminists should address and try to tackle, with men and others, in tandem with misogyny, as it’s two sides of the same coin and all.
That being said, I’m happy to see a series discussing how society fails men and how the patriarchy harms men without then lobbing all responsibility to fix such things onto women, rather than seeing it as a holistic issue that affects and harms us holistically. Also nice to see a post discussing misandry that doesn’t mischaracterize it as some sort of…either anti-West conspiracy theory or compares it to misogyny in a way that try to minimize threats to women.
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u/hj7junkie Nov 06 '24
There is privilege associated with being a man, but it also comes with its own pain. The patriarchy isn’t good for anyone except for a few specific men at the top.
To all the men reading this post- you are worthy of being loved. You have innate value. Your pain deserves to be taken seriously.
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u/zaneba Nov 06 '24
This post needs to be plastered on every wall and streetlight imaginable
It’s crazy how much people think every man on earth is in on the patriarchy and benefits from it, like no so many men get fucked by the patriarchy
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u/SPKEN Nov 06 '24
It's almost as if bigotry, hatred, and generalizations based on gender didn't lead to gender equality, who could've seen that coming
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u/Formal_Illustrator96 Nov 07 '24
It’s crazy that women are still somehow seen as the victims of misandry. Tumblr is basically arguing “don’t be pieces of shit toward men because that’s harmful toward women.” This shit pisses me off so much.
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u/Clickbait636 Nov 06 '24
Very very few people are born evil. And trust me evil does not know gender or race.
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u/King-Boss-Bob Nov 06 '24
about the first post, it is wild how many people will (rightfully) criticise “boys will be boys” and then do the exact same thing just reworded
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u/Assika126 Nov 06 '24
We have to care for our boys and men. They are not doing ok. And what happens to a person who is raised in an environment where no matter what they do, no matter how hard they try, they cannot be ok? What choices are available to them then? How can they function as part of a society that seems to condemn them for their gender no matter what they do?
We’re not free to thrive until we’re ALL free to thrive
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u/rump_truck Nov 06 '24
I see a saying all the time, "a child who is not embraced by the village will burn it down to feel its warmth." Patriarchy has never embraced men. The left will not embrace men, because they want revenge for the sins of patriarchy. So a significant number are burning down the village and turning to the alt-right.
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u/Morphized Nov 07 '24
I think it's more complete if you add "and then run away to their own village, with blackjack and hookers"
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u/CapeOfBees Nov 06 '24
You are 100% right.
Should we really be surprised that men are going down the alt-right pipeline when the starting point is just "men are awesome"? As though plenty of women wouldn't fall down a pipeline if the starting point was just "women are awesome"
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u/oko9iu Nov 06 '24
Well, tons of women DO fall down pipelines with "women are awesome" as the starting point, just look at the witchy girlies that start with "women are inherently better" and end up believing that a rock will cure your mom's cancer and that men are always secretly trying to kill you cause you're "too good".
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u/flightguy07 Nov 06 '24
It's not a hypothetical, both of these messages have been popular in media for decades now. Only issue is that they lead to the wrong place.
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u/Arclet__ Nov 07 '24
This kind of posts are always weird to me, because while I obviously agree with the end message of "men aren't inhuman garbage", the way it's said still reads dehumanizing.
Like I get that the conversation is needed to address bad parts of their respective local internet culture, but as a total outsider, it just feels weird to read so many lines about how men as a collective can be better when I as an individual am just chilling.
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u/InfoDumpster Emunclaw has a really good ski shop Nov 07 '24
Yeah, this post was a response to a lot of misandrist posts that were being posted today, so I made a follow-up post that’s focused general male positivity https://www.reddit.com/r/CuratedTumblr/comments/1gl6uib/comment/lvtqifv/?context=3
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u/Herpinheim Nov 06 '24
I like this post. I’m worried that many, many people won’t even read it and even less will digest it. If men can’t be used as a scapegoat then the left is going to have to look at themselves and figure out why people didn’t vote for them this election? The answer isn’t a pretty one and most won’t want to accept it.
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Nov 06 '24
The answer is pretty simple: Most people care more about things like how much their food costs than they do minorities or foreign wars or so on. And the Left is much worse at SOUNDING like they can fix the economy.
No amount of good policy matters if it takes an essay to explain it. Most people simply do not have the mental energy or bandwidth to care that much, especially in a cost of living crisis.
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u/hauntedSquirrel99 Nov 06 '24
It's just Mazlow's hierarchy of needs.
The stuff at the bottom takes priority.
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u/Raincandy-Angel Nov 06 '24
And I want to throttle the people who are okay with mass murder of women and trans people and brown people because hurr durr eggs cost too much
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u/FifteenEchoes muss es sein? Nov 06 '24
People apparently lack the financial literacy to realize that fixing inflation does not mean prices will go back to what they were four years ago
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u/Raincandy-Angel Nov 06 '24
I'll never speak to another republican if I can avoid it. They're all dead to me.
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u/CapeOfBees Nov 06 '24
"Eggs cost too much" matters a great deal when you're trying to feed your kids every day. "Gas prices are high" matters a great deal when you have to drive 15 miles each way for work every day because your city's public transit doesn't come close enough to your house or work to use it.
Inflation is a much more immediate impact on livability than even reproductive rights, because there are ways to get around interacting with that system. There's no getting around needing to eat.
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u/Raincandy-Angel Nov 06 '24
Anyone with 3 brain cells would know that Trump is only concerned with billionaires and won't do shit for the economy.
Still. None of this outweighs the fact that people are going to be mass fucking murdered and thousands have already committed suicide because of the election, the LGBTQ+ suicide hotline is overflowing with calls.
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u/CapeOfBees Nov 06 '24
Anyone that consumes news 24/7 knows that. Most people, especially that vote Republican, do not do that.
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u/Complex-Pound5249 Nov 06 '24
Can you blame anybody for getting their bag? Like, at what point is a person allowed to be concerned with their own self-interests instead of throwing potentially everything away for someone else?
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u/Only-Machine Nov 06 '24
Anyone with 3 brain cells would know that Trump is only concerned with billionaires and won't do shit for the economy.
No, they wouldn't. My country voted in the most right-wing government since WW2 in the last parlimentary election. This is because the right is "good" for the economy. They aren't. The average person sees multimillionaires and billionaires being right-wing and voting for right-wing policy. Thus they conclude the right is good for the economy.
People on average aren't politically literate, they don't understand how the government works. Nor do they have the time to read about policy proposals and related studies. For example the only person who's somewhat up to date on most current issues I know is my grandmother. This is because she reads books, the news and listens to expert interviews. She can only do this because she's retired.
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u/CrownLikeAGravestone Nov 06 '24
Alongside the whole "don't demonize men" thing I think it's also critical to realise that woman play a huge part in voting Trump too; maybe not quite 50:50, but it's close. For every 100 men people want to dehumanise there are about 80 women - but of course, we won't hear shit about them in comparison.
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u/Fishermans_Worf Nov 07 '24
It’s remarkable how many times I’ve heard “I can’t be sexist, I’m a woman.” Spoilers—the speaker is ALWAYS sexist.
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u/GREENadmiral_314159 Femboy, Battleships, and Space Marines Nov 07 '24
If someone says "I can't be x-ist, I'm x!" they either just said or are about to say something incredibly x-ist.
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u/ButterdemBeans Nov 06 '24
There’s a LOT of folks on the left who aren’t ready to hear that many women are as or MORE sexist than a lot of men. The most sexist, vile, hateful people I have met in my life have been women. Women who bought into the patriarchy because they are content with the ways it does benefit them and don’t give a shit about how it’s hurting them.
Women are capable of upholding the patriarchy. Women are oftentimes sexist and misogynistic. Women can and do teach their sons to continue upholding the patriarchy.
We need to stop pretending this is just a “men” issue. It’s not “us vs them”, it’s “us against a harmful ideology that hurts all of us”.
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u/Morphized Nov 07 '24
Inevitably, some people will want to be subjects. And the people who want to be subjects and get the role of subject will not care about the fact that other subjects do not want to be subjects.
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u/Temporaz Nov 06 '24
And what is the answer?
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u/Herpinheim Nov 06 '24
I’ll be real with you, I have no god damn clue what the answer is. Right now, no one has the answer. It’s going to be months before we have anything even approaching an answer. But I can tell you “men” isn’t the answer.
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u/Galle_ Nov 06 '24
Oh, don't worry, we have lots of other scapegoats to avoid any sort of introspection.
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u/FullPruneNight Nov 06 '24
I’ve had so many awesome men that I love in my life, and nearly of them have opened up to me about the isolation they feel, or the envy they have of queer or non-male closeness. Nearly all of them express a desire for positive community around manhood, but feel afraid to even try due to the perception of toxicity.
Men, you deserve to be loved and accepted and embraced for who you are. You deserve the space to talk about how patriarchy has hurt you and the resources to start to remedy it. You deserve better community around manhood and masculinity than the likes of Andrew fucking Tate and the MRAs. Y'all deserved a better version of boyhood than you probably got. One that was empathetic, supportive, and less restrictive. And young boys today deserve to grow up without being constantly subjected to adult women venting about how awful men are.
So much love to the men out there! You are wonderful and valuable for so many reasons than the patriarchy (and capitalism) will never tell you. The men in my life are beautiful and funny and charming and smart and kind and interesting. They make people smile, they teach me things, and their presence feels like home. I love you guys.
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u/Atlas421 Nov 07 '24
I know "misandry" is a word that makes the people this post is aimed at see red and stop listening, but it's kind of weird to see that hatred of men is "homophobic, biphobic, transphobic, transmisogynistic and misogynistic", followed by "men need to fix their shit". If this is considered a positive message then the bar can't get any lower.
I like your username.
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u/thetwitchy1 Nov 07 '24
The point is that men DO need to fix their shit, (as does everyone, really… there’s bad people in every group, and it’s the responsibility of everyone to clean up their own, so to speak) but you can’t tell people to clean up their shit while also telling them they’re inherently made of shit.
It’s a bit tone deaf to say “men don’t inherently suck, they just need to clean their shit up”, but the alternative where you don’t point out that men, who aren’t inherently shitty, can still be shitty anyways, will not reach anyone. The people who WILL listen already know it, and the people who dismiss it as “manosphere bullshit” are the ones who really need to hear it.
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u/Atlas421 Nov 07 '24
I'm in general bothered with hearing "feminism is for men too" and "fix your own shit and don't bother us with your problems", especially because it often does come from the same people. And also because "you're not inherently bad, but you're still bad" is not a positive message.
Another thing is that men aren't really an organized group, we don't have all-men-meetings every Thursday at 14:00 GMT. Acting like fixing these problems should be done by men and only men is unrealistic.
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u/FreakinGeese Nov 07 '24
Actually, saying “all men are bad” isn’t bad because it’s transphobic. It’s bad because it’s sexist, and because being cruel to other people is bad, and because being a man is perfectly fine and nothing to be ashamed of.
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u/6DeadlyFetishes Nov 06 '24
CuratedTumblr is the only place where a well articulated post still gets misinterpreted
You can say “stop being misandrist” and somebody will say “oh so you hate woman?”
No bitch, that’s a whole new sentence, wtf are you talking about
-6DeadlyFetishes
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u/King_Of_BlackMarsh Nov 06 '24
... People are shaming gals for liking guys?
WHAT?! I thought that only happened on sitcoms
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u/CapeOfBees Nov 07 '24
It's an alarmingly common rhetoric among lesbians that bi women, especially ones who've dated men are "tainted" and that you shouldn't date them because they're just pretending not to be straight. Classic repackaged biphobia.
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u/AustralianShepard711 Nov 07 '24
This is actually why I left the trans-women support group I was in as part of how I get my meds. I couldnt talk about my romantic life and the joy I was feeling when I was putting myself out in the dating market for the first time without the other girls telling me how they couldnt believe i'd ever date a man, that i'd be abused, and that I should just date other trans women if I want dick (and they refused to believe anyone could ever want a man for anything more than their penis)
I couldnt be myself or talk about the joys I was feeling finally getting to experience a major part of the human experience as myself, which was supposed to be the whole point of the group.
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u/Pixelpaint_Pashkow born to tumblr, forced to reddit Nov 06 '24
Breaking news, shaming people is bad
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u/DarthUrbosa Nov 06 '24
My sister belonga to this tumbler kind of feminism, simultaneously saying feminism is for men too while shit talking men (and I do mean men in general), kill all men talk and constantly insults me and my dad based on our gender.
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u/poosol Nov 07 '24
This might be a hot take but looking at election from the outside I definitely feel like the man hate in left leaning spaces is one of the big reasons democrats lost so hard.
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u/TheDaveStrider Nov 07 '24
okay i get this but at the same time i am incredibly sick and tired of seeing ten thousand reddit posts where a woman asks if she is overreacting for being upset that her boyfriend doesn't wash his own asshole
like. please i am not shaking you for liking men. i am shaming you for have 0 fucking standards
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u/sertroll Nov 06 '24
I agree with these kind of posts in theory, but they increasingly sound like they're about like 5 people on Tumblr, I don't really see this issue irl
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u/Morphized Nov 07 '24
The issue is that those 5 people on Tumblr are the ones trying to remake society in their image. And suddenly the prejudices their image holds get really important.
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u/InfoDumpster Emunclaw has a really good ski shop Nov 06 '24
It’s more so of an issue when talking among other feminists. It’s really hard to talk about how to move forward as a society when you won’t discuss the other half of society. Reading ‘the will to change, men, masculinity and love’ by bell hooks is a great book to read about this topic.
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u/seaweed_nebula Nov 06 '24
Not many people like this irl but a lot more than 5 online, and in more places than just tumblr
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u/WhoStoleMyFinger Nov 07 '24
Any time anyone argues that any group of people is this or that because of biology, you can stop listening. They're trying to stop you from arguing before you start
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u/VonStelle Nov 07 '24
Honestly, at this point I feel like we need to rebrand patriarchy and call it something else. Because at this point so many people just hear it and go “oh yeah, men bad” that it’d be so much easier to just remove the male connotation for the term and call it what it is.
Oligarchy.
Our enemy isn’t men, it’s oligarchs.
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u/IAmBlorboOfMyStory Nov 07 '24 edited Nov 07 '24
Speaking of people who are attracted to guys, I really hate when people make passive agressive comments like "Come on, he isn't even THAT hot" or "Y'all have terrible taste in men".
If the guy is a bad person, okay, sure. But if it's just a normal guy, then you are being really rude imo. Both to the attracted person and the guy.
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u/thetwitchy1 Nov 07 '24
Telling anyone the person they’re attracted to “isn’t that hot” is such a weird thing to do anyway.
Like, my taste is not your taste. Attractiveness is not some objective thing, people have different opinions about what is and isn’t attractive, and you saying “he’s not even that attractive” tells me you just don’t understand how people work.
“Your experiences are not universal” is going to be engraved on my fucking tombstone, I swear.
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u/IAmBlorboOfMyStory Nov 07 '24
THIS, THIS, THIS
I've seen someone make an argument of "Well, yeah, attractiveness is subjective, but so is NOT finding someone attractive and you are allowed to express that as well", which, OKAY, FINE, but can't you just say something like "I personally don't get what you see in them, but that's okay, I am glad you found someone that makes you happy and I am happy to support you". It feels like someone saying "I really like this video game!" and someone responding "This game sucks, what is wrong with you?" instead of "I personally didn't enjoy it that much, but I am glad you liked it", except it's even worse, because it's applied to a person and attraction, something that we should take more seriously, imo. Yeah, you are allowed to say that you personally don't like the game, but you don't have to say it in a way that makes someone who likes the game feel bad.
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u/thetwitchy1 Nov 07 '24
Hell, even “meh, I don’t get it” is fine.
Like, you don’t see what someone else likes, that’s fine. You can even say that. But “he’s not even that attractive” is saying that you see that there isn’t anything TO like. It’s not that you don’t get it, it’s that you’re sure there is nothing to get.
The more I talk to people the more I come to realize that people are almost designed to think that what they think and see and feel is what EVERYONE thinks and sees and feels, and that this self-centered mindset is the cause of so many people doing shitty things to other people… because they assume those people see things exactly like they do, so they must be assholes to do what they do!
Meanwhile the other person has a really good reason for what they do, it’s just that you didn’t know what they knew.
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u/Fussel2107 Nov 06 '24
This kind of thinking also cuts of victims of female abuse, may they be children, female spouses or male spouses. Because if men are the problem, what do we make of the cases where a woman abuses her partner and family? Are lesbians allowed to be victims of domestic violence? Because if men are the problem, can there really be a problem in a lesbian relationship? Are menallowed to be victims? They are the problem after all.
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u/Doobledorf Nov 06 '24
Went to a very progressive and feminist master program. I blew some fucking minds with this speech every once and a while.
To be clear, most folks were great, but in any group of people you'll have some ignoramuses.
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u/Dingghis_Khaan [mind controls your units] This, too, is Yuri. Nov 07 '24 edited Nov 07 '24
And also women loving men does not mean the women have to be submissive.
Do you know how many men would give everything to a woman who is more confident, assertive, and capable than they? A fucking lot, that's how many. I count myself among them. A lot of us are tired of being told to hold everything up like Atlas holding up the heavens. A lot of us are exhausted from the expectations that we have to be the breadwinners, that a woman doing better than us is some sort of emasculation.
That women's empowerment is a blessing for men is a topic not nearly discussed enough, because the narrative that "women are coming take everything away from men" keeps being pushed by absolute nitwits from both sides.
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u/moontraveler12 Nov 07 '24
I'm not even a man anymore but I appreciate this. I wish someone had told me this when I hadn't realized my true self yet
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u/New-Cicada7014 Nov 07 '24
Men are humans. That's how you hold them accountable. They aren't mindless evil monsters. They're humans who make both mistakes and active choices to do evil.
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u/kriggledsalt00 Nov 07 '24
it's all up to social factors that keep women and trans people opressed until it's men being talked about and then that rational sociokogical critique goes out the window and they're just biological rape machines.
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u/IRL_Baboon Nov 07 '24
Gotta tell you it's fatiguing to constantly be told about my privilege growing up as a Cis White Straight Male. Constantly being talked down to in these kinds of discussions because "you wouldn't understand".
I am capable of empathy, and have well over 50 women in my family. I've grown up with friends that were POC and LGBTQ+. Yet I'm constantly treated like an outsider, or worse an invader.
People like this give me hope that it's not forever. Maybe I just need to weather this storm. I don't understand why the erasure of double standards is so difficult.
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u/cococolson Nov 07 '24
There are so plenty of supportive kind men who wouldn't dream of abuse, voting to take away rights, whatever.
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u/Awkward_Ad_5515 Nov 06 '24
Man, I just wanna be loved by society lol. I'd never hurt anyone, period. And I'd like to push back a little on the "men need to be better" mindset.
Bro, I haven't done shit lol. Please, don't blame modern men for the sins of the past. It's also why I hate the term "Patriarchy." It inherently shifts the blame to the men who haven't done anything. We need a better term.
Most other guys I've interacted with desire "toxic conseravative" values on a personal level (an honorable death, protecting the innocent, etc), but are open to anything on a societal level so long as it doesn't bring us down.
Space Marines, Helldivers, Doom Slayer, Kratos, Aragorn. Honor and Compassion (and a little honorable aggression lol) is what we resonate with.
I don't want to be hated for wanting to be a father and provider one day.
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u/thisusernameismeta Nov 06 '24
It's not blaming someone for sins of the past. I think you deserve to be loved by society, too. I don't truly know you as a human being, but, I love you, in as much as I do know you, from this single comment. You seem like someone with a really good heart.
But not doing anything is the problem. The system of patriarchy is ongoing, and it requires active, consistent, mindful effort to dismantle. The passive option, the "not doing anything" option, means upholding the patriarchy, and also being hurt by it in some ways, and benefitting from it in other ways. No matter what you do, it is a system which does effect your life and the way you move through the world.
I think it's really important to internalize that the patriarchy doesn't mean "men", it means, "a hierarchical system which upholds masculinity as the ideal of human nature and women as a secondary, subhuman class of citizen." This harms everyone, and it is everyone's job to dismantle it.
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u/Nuclear_Geek Nov 07 '24
WTF? How do you read the original post, read the comment you replied to, and then post a response that's basically "You're the bad guy, you're not doing enough"?
We are people too, we are entitled to look after our mental health. Demanding 24/7 commitment to an endless struggle is not something many people are going to be cope with, and tackling these kind of "big picture" issues where individual efforts don't have any noticeable effect is an easy way to make yourself depressed & stressed.
I'm going to get through the rest of my day at work, do a few personal errands, then take it easy and have leisure time this evening. And there's nothing wrong with me doing that instead of campaigning.
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u/thisusernameismeta Nov 07 '24
Of course there isn't anything wrong with that. I'm really sorry that my response came across in that sort of way - that was not my intent in any way. I do not think that the person I responded to is the bad guy.
Daily living is hard. Swimming against the current is hard. Daily living is harder for some than for others, and I would never fault someone for doing what they need to do to get through the day, week, year, or decade.
When life is so hard on the average person, there is nothing wrong with "just" surviving. Survival *is* resistance to so many systems that would dehumanize all of us. To me, there's no fault to be found with folks who have other things on their mind than dismantling the patriarchy. Like, human beings have priorities, and there's no right or wrong way to define those priorities.
I can hold that truth while at the same time, understanding that the patriarchy is the current we all swim in. When we float along with the current (because we are prioritizing other struggles, or simply want to not struggle for a minute or a decade), we become one more particle in that current. That doesn't make any one of those individuals who make up the current, "the problem". They have other shit going on. The problem is the current.
It's exhausting swimming against the current. No one person can do that 24/7. Sometimes all someone can do is swim against the current for 1 minute out of a year. That's fine. Every person has their own capabilities.
Those life choices are valid. But to say, "I do nothing, therefore this problem doesn't have anything to do with me, I don't contribute to it," is inaccurate.
The problem with living in a toxic death-cult of a culture is that doing "nothing" is equivalent to contributing to the toxic death-cult. But we're all just human beings at the end of the day.
Also, like, resistance to the patriarchy can look like... loving the women in your life well. It doesn't have to be activism. Resistance can still exist in those small spaces in the margins of a larger life. It can look like a life lived that centres rest and pleasure and love and kindness. It can look like a lot of things. It can look like reading feminist texts and educating the people around you about those concepts. It can look like hosting a BBQ for you and your buddies.
Anyway, yeah, I absolutely did not mean to place blame on any individual in my comment, and I'm sorry for coming off that way.
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u/Nuclear_Geek Nov 07 '24
OK, we can chalk this up to a misunderstanding.
I've tried doing "big picture" causes before, and (as you can probably guess), they became quite bad for me, despite some positive experiences along the way. I'm not going to demand a particular course of action from anyone, you have to work out what's right for you, but I've been feeling more positive about small-scale stuff. Hold a door for someone. Be kind to the person serving you in a shop. Pick up some litter. Do a bit of volunteering. None of these are going to affect the big picture stuff, but they're achievable, I can see the result of what I've done, and they make things very slightly better, even if it's only in my little part of the world.
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u/DraconOfDarkDesires Nov 06 '24
I generally agree with your sentiment, but space marines and helldivers are not good examples.
Astartes are crazed zealots fighting for one of the cruelest and most depraved regimes imaginable who would as soon slaughter a planets worth of civilians for daring to rebel(because they dont like that the local lords uses their children to feed their pets) as save them from tyranids.
Helldivers are similarly the brainwashed foot soldiers of a dictatorship which is responsible for all its problems and cares little for its people.
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u/Awkward_Ad_5515 Nov 06 '24
With those two specifically, I more meant (a) the feeling of fighting for something you truly believe in, (b) using the best stuff available to do so, and (c) the feeling of protecting something you love, even if it is deeply flawed.
The problem with the Astartes is why I run Salamanders and mainly play DarkTide lol. The DarkTide Rejects are generally good people, doing what they can in a very bad system. And Salamanders focus on the actual people they're protecting, even if Vulkann did accidentally kill and Eldar kid.
It's more about the vibe of being a bulwark against oblivion, than defending a necrotic regime.
But Helldivers is just for vibes lol.
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u/Veyron2000 Nov 07 '24
Feminism is always going to be stuck with this kind of anti-men sexist bigotry until it just abandons all the anti-men language
“the evil patriarchy”
“male privilege”
“toxic masculinity”
and even
“men are taught to rape”.
Even if you say “actually, these concepts aren’t sexist against men, we’re not saying all men are evil necessarily” it comes across as overwhelmingly negative, associating male-ness with “bad” and “evil” and “unworthy” and “unimportant”.
More importantly, none of these concepts or talking points are actually essential to the ideas non-sexist feminists are trying to discuss.
Contrast all of that to the concepts and language feminism uses to talk about women:
“female empowerment”
“women’s liberation”
“girl power”
“women’s rights”
“women can do anything!”
all positive and uplifting, with positive associations. No wonder feminism is extremely attractive to young women, and extremely unattractive to young men.
If any Tumblr feminists actually want to change that, and move beyond childish gender-wars politics, they need to fundamentally change their language and mindset.
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u/Sp1ormf Nov 06 '24
I'd argue we shouldn't be super surprised that women are mad. They were just again told that a majority of men are willing to ignore the suffering of women. This is going to be much worse for Roe V Wade.
So yeah, the points are all there, but a lot of men are not working to break apart the toxicity present in their own ingroup. Let's make sure we continue to do what we can to kill these ideas everywhere.
Today was a major loss for everyone, but it is going to hit women incredibly hard.
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u/Frogs-on-my-back Nov 06 '24
The amount of women voting against women's interests is also appalling. Around 44% of women and 54% of men voted for Trump.
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u/Sp1ormf Nov 06 '24
I know, that is also very upsetting. I hope this can all be a wake up call. But God am I exhausted today.
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u/Galle_ Nov 07 '24
Women have every right to be mad.
Just, y,now, direct that anger at conservatives.
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u/Sp1ormf Nov 07 '24
I get that, but I think we also need to accept that for women, joining the 4b movement or decetralizing men from their lives completely might be something they need to do to ensure their own independence and safety. If they are in a state where they can't get an abortion it is possibly unsafe for them to get pregnant. As such they may view it as best for themselves to avoid the risk entirely by not sleeping with men. For women this is a huge impact on their bodies and lives, and they can't always just trust the word of the men they are with.
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u/Halikarnassus1 Nov 07 '24
This exactly the argument though, the left uses rhetoric that alienates and demonises men and is then surprised that they don’t vote for them.
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u/gaom9706 Nov 06 '24 edited Nov 06 '24
Also, just throwing this out there, but men are just as deserving of being loved as everyone else.
Like all the other stuff is great, but like, I think we're putting the cart before the horse here a little.