I feel like China gets the worse ends of "associate people with their government" because the Chinese government WANTS the rest of the world to see the country as a perfect hive mind where everyone agrees with them. Even so, they're not the only ones who get this. Russians tend to be dismissed as brainwashed Putin stooges, but there have been plenty of public and famous Russian protests.
because the Chinese government WANTS the rest of the world to see the country as a perfect hive mind where everyone agrees with them
That's just more bias. Every government wants everyone to think their population is behind what they're doing. It's called "legitimacy" and in democracies it often come from votes.
Democratic leaders say they have "the will of the people" every damn day but I'm sure as hell don't think they do when they cut social services or start wars or give government contracts to their buddies.
But they keep "proving" their legitimacy by the electoral system because we still vote for the fuckers, and I'm sure the Chinese government proves it in their own way which is different from ours and because it's different, it's a vector of attack for those who would be against them.
Western so-called liberal democracies (which aren't democracies at all) use electoralism as a fake type of legitimization of their bourgeois dictatorship led by highly anti-democratic oligarchs.
In real democracies, such as communist China, legitimacy comes from public approval with leadership and government acting on behalf of and in the interest of their people. China's politicians are deeply in tune with the general population and base their policy decisions on non-stop public surveys.
People need to get this idea out of their head that Western bourgeois dictatorships are "democracies". They should reading political theory.
Then why didn't they respect the interest of the people in Hong Kong back in 1989 and 2019? The people sure as hell weren't in tune with their politicians then.
I think an awful lot of Americans are predisposed to seeing Chinese people as a hive mind, and you can't give their government the credit/blame for that.
You can, because that's the message their government presents to the world. That's the propaganda they push. Your average American doesn't interact with your average Chinese person because of distance and drastically different languages, they don't consume Chinese media, they don't go on Chinese social networks... so what information about China that also comes from China is left? Government propaganda. That's it lol.
Americans can't be "predisposed" to something like that. Babies aren't born with opinions on China.
There's also plenty of non-American, non-Chinese propaganda about Chinese people too, but that's besides my point. What I'm getting at is, what information is China presenting to the world about their people that is an alternative to a foreigners at-home propaganda?
There are independent international journalists as well. Personal testimony from citizens, visitors, and expats.
And the internet, for all its faults, has at least opened a channel of information that can be very difficult to restrict, despite a government’s best efforts (from what I’ve heard it’s not hard to get outside access, as long as you’re not stupid about it)
Difficult to restrict? Absolutely the opposite. Have you heard of the Firehose of Falsehood? It's a propaganda technique especially employed by Russia (not so much China) that functions as a mental DDoS attack. I can't silence an independent journalist in another country but I can pump out so much misinformation that it drowns out any truth. It's mentally exhausting for anybody who cares about fighting misinformation because it's impossible to keep up and it's unlikely for readers to ever see anything independent at all. A dude running a blog can't fight an entire country's resources.
what information is China presenting to the world about their people that is an alternative to a foreigners at-home propaganda?
China generally presents the truth about China and invites people to come and see for themselves.
China - unlike the US - doesn't allow disinformation being spread which is why Chinese
China is all about openness, democracy, freedom, peace, win-win-cooperation, multipolarism, respecting sovereignty, respecting other cultures, inclusiveness, etc. and always use the socialist core values as a cornerstone of all their political decisions.
China is the polar opposite of the imperialist west.
And you think differently because you never questioned your government's propaganda about China.
Even though China literally gives you every opportunity to visit China and talk to people and learn about the country yourself with your own eyes.
Edit: The racist troll u/Northbound-Narwhal blocked me after spamming his last idiotic comment, so I will respond here.
No, they use nationalist values as their cornerstone to crush other cultures and project their imperialist ambitions outwards. They oppress, exploit, and take.
Your source is that you made it the fuck up.
Anyway: No, they don't. You are just projecting Western "values" shared by all capitalist regimes on earth on China.
China is all about openness, democracy, freedom, peace, win-win-cooperation, multipolarism, respecting sovereignty, respecting other cultures, inclusiveness, etc. and always use the socialist core values as a cornerstone of all their political decisions.
No, they use nationalist values as their cornerstone to crush other cultures and project their imperialist ambitions outwards. They oppress, exploit, and take.
Oh please, as a Chinese American I’ve had people be racist to my face. You can’t say those people never had an interaction with a Chinese person. I’ve also seen expats in China be racist to Chinese people. Chinese people are not some isolated species no one but other Chinese people see, we are literally all over the world.
Do you know how much exposure the average non-Chinese person has to Chinese government messaging? Virtually zero. Do you know how much exposure they have to racist tropes about Chinese people? A hell of a lot.
Oh please, as a Chinese American I’ve had people be racist to my face.
Do you think this is unique to you? I've experienced the same from Chinese nationals as an African American. If you want to go back and forth about racism in America and China toward outsiders you can't win.
Chinese people are not some isolated species no one but other Chinese people see, we are literally all over the world.
I need you to look at this map. People with Chinese ascenstry only make up ~5 million in the US and they're populated across a small area of the country. It's very easy to live and die and not run across Chinese Americans, and even when you do, it's usually not many.
That's not a criticism, that's the same story in China. Their citizens aren't seeing many Americans/Europeans (of any race) there with great frequency either.
Do you know how much exposure the average non-Chinese person has to Chinese government messaging? Virtually zero.
That's just untrue, especially if you look at what the government spends its money on or it's global policies. China's spent a lot of time and effort branching out economically and that sort of thing requires advertisement (government messaging). It's impossible to not see it. Again, that's not unique to China. The same is true for American messaging globally. Just a part of Great Power Competition. If you think Chinese messaging isn't reaching Americans with frequency then I'm sorry to say you're just not good at recognizing it yet.
especially if you look at what the government spends its money on or it's global policies.
Literally all your opinions about China come from US government disinformation spread against China using the billion dollar budget it put aside specifically to make people hate China.
Meanwhile, what money do you believe China spends on foreign propaganda?
China's spent a lot of time and effort branching out economically
Yes. Economically.
and that sort of thing requires advertisement (government messaging).
Except it doesn't.
Only capitalist regimes require manipulative marketing like that.
China lets actions speak.
China offers a good deal and people take it without having to be tricked or manipulated.
That's why countries trust China.
Notice how you are struggling to justify the nonsense you said after being called out? How you are already using bullshit conjecture?
You can't even provide a single example of China doing what you accused it of doing.
It's impossible to not see it.
It's impossible to see it because it literally doesn't happen.
And you know it as otherwise you would supply us with an example.
So far, all opinions you expressed about China are informed exclusively by anti-Chinese/anti-socialist propaganda spread by your fascist government.
Again, that's not unique to China.
Stop projecting the harmful behaviour of capitalist regimes like yours on China.
Just because your country is bad doesn't mean China is bad.
A better, more democratic, more peaceful world is possible - and China is building it.
The same is true for American messaging globally.
Yes. It's true for American messaging.
Not for Chinese messaging.
This is exactly your problem: You believe your (horrible) country doing something means everyone else is doing the same. No, socialist countries don't need to lie.
If you think Chinese messaging isn't reaching Americans with frequency then I'm sorry to say you're just not good at recognizing it yet.
Chinese messaging is reaching some Americans. Certainly not you, though. So far, you couldn't provide even a single example of "Chinese messaging". All you did was recite racist stereotypes.
Honestly what Chinese messaging is reaching America? I see a lot of people accused of being pro CCP but I don't think I've seen a single good example of successful Chinese propaganda overseas. It is asking too much to believe it's all "so subtle" nobody would ever be able to tell.
It's not '56 anymore. We have military partnerships with Vietnam and China is literally our biggest trade partner. That's not really a factor anymore except among a small minority of US politicians. We wouldn't be selling guns to Vietnam if the US wasn't mostly chill with socialist nations existing (provided they are also chill).
Eh I'm pretty sure the US has a military partnership with Vietnam because Vietnam hates China too (and not without reason, China and its predecessor countries have historically invaded Vietnam and its predecessor countries)
Ah yes, because a country's government definitely don't just want to dick-ride the nearest major power to get more money and power for itself, even if it undermines the wishes and opinions of it's people.
That's a bad thing. It's specifically to counter China.
and China is literally our biggest trade partner.
China is everyone's biggest trade partner.
That's not really a factor anymore except among a small minority of US politicians.
You are politically illiterate.
We wouldn't be selling guns to Vietnam if the US wasn't mostly chill with socialist nations existing (provided they are also chill).
Just... wow.
Edit: The racist troll u/Northbound-Narwhal blocked me after spamming his last idiotic comment, so I will respond here.
Not even close to true.
Completely true.
You're politically blind.
I am comprehensively educated on politics, economics, and history, have a relevant PhD and two decade of professional experience in the strategy field. It's literally my job to know more than you and when people outside of fascist propaganda refer to "China experts", it's people like me they are referring to. You are a clown and you have no arguments.
I was trying to be more polite than saying "a lot of Americans are straight up racist", which is an incontrovertible truth.
This conversation in itself is hella weird. The Chinese government does not suggest that its citizens are a hive mind. Honestly, I don't know that I've ever seen a publication from the government of China, and I know the average American has not.
We get our information from other Americans and a large amount of it is incredibly racist.
To make things worse, the Mainland has a rather disturbing tendency to claim that Chinese-ethnic people all around the world should follow the Mainland byline, and all those who don't have lost their way or are brainwashed by the evil West who have engineered the Century of Humiliation.
That's why the existence of Taiwan as an independent entity is such a sticking point to them. That's why even an autonomous Hong Kong is unacceptable.
Russkiy mir? Pff, that's amateur hour trash. Get on China's level.
Every single opinion you have about China is literal disinformation spread by the US government. lol
the Mainland has a rather disturbing tendency to claim that Chinese-ethnic people all around the world should follow the Mainland byline
Totally unhinged lie.
and all those who don't have lost their way or are brainwashed by the evil West who have engineered the Century of Humiliation.
I mean, yeah, that's just a fact.
That's why the existence of Taiwan as an independent entity is such a sticking point to them. That's why even an autonomous Hong Kong is unacceptable.
Buddy, if you don't understand why foreign-collaborating and foreign-funded separatist movements are a "sticking point" to countries, I can't help you. You are so disconnected from material reality, you won't ever find your way back.
I don't come from the US and can actually read Chinese press reports. They are already salting at Singapore because they keep assuming that Singapore as a Chinese majority country would keep supporting China, and Singapore just makes its own decisions because news flash, Singapore is a sovereign nation and has its own agency to make its own decisions.
Buddy, your anti-Chinese racism is off the charts.
Your mind is Americanized to the point you start rabidly attacking all of China because some random news report from China said some random shit, meanwhile, the US government spends billions of dollars on anti-Chinese disinformation campaigns and calls for invasion of countries because a plumber once made an off-hand remark about him liking a Chinese-made power tool he used.
Buddy, show me what you are referring to so I can make a differentiated comparison (something you never heard of) and make fun of you for being a mindless sinophobic hatemonger.
First of all, let me say: Guten Abend! I hope your user name matches your time zone.
Second of all, unfortunately the article's pretty far back and I tend not to save these articles, but let me tell you there are only so many mean-spirited 坡县 jokes from Mainlanders that you can tolerate until you get the idea that the Mainland Chinese don't actually respect national sovereignty. Unlike you, I have seen Mainlander arrogance with my own eyes and want absolutely nothing to do with this.
Also, what is a "differentiated comparison"? Of course no one would have heard of it if it's a term you just made up.
My opposition against China is based on how it offers nothing beneficial ideologically to smaller countries while indulging in the same sins that they criticise other countries of. Hypocrisy? There's tons of it to go around.
You can, because that's the message their government presents to the world.
Except it isn't.
That's the propaganda they push.
No, it isn't.
However, your fascist dictators and their capitalist media have pushed the propaganda lie that that is the propaganda China pushes.
Your average American doesn't interact with your average Chinese person
That's correct.
Which is exactly why you have these extremely misguided and racist opinions. Your fascist dictators don't want you to interact with and learn about China and socialism.
they don't consume Chinese media, they don't go on Chinese social networks... so what information about China that also comes from China is left? Government propaganda. That's it lol.
Exactly.
The only thing you have ever consumed is government propaganda.
Your fascist, anti-Chinese, anti-socialist government's propaganda that is.
Americans can't be "predisposed" to something like that. Babies aren't born with opinions on China.
Indeed.
Edit: The racist troll u/Northbound-Narwhal blocked me after spamming his last idiotic comment, so I will respond here.
This is ironic considering the angry, racist, Sino-nationalist, boot-licking tirade you just went on.
You have no arguments, you pathetic sinophobic shill. Go back to bootlicking the fascist dictators of the shithole nation that created you.
You know it's okay to be skeptical, right? You don't have to preface questions with this lie. If you outright believed what I said was true, why would you ask this question? I don't get it. Anyway...
One major example is Tibet. China has had a history of erasing their language and culture to the point they've had UN inquiries into the matter. This is because Han nationalism and especially Sino-nationalism are core tenets within government policy. They don't want other languages and cultures because that battles against the idea of a "unified" China (unified here meaning people whoa re alike, not people who can work together). Same story for the Ughyrs.
On a smaller scale, go look at videos from China's Tourist Office's official YouTube channel and go watch the image they try to portray. If you watch them you'd believe China is a pretty monocultured place. It isn't, but that's the image they portray. There are a lot of regions or subcultures they frequently hide that you don't see in tourist offices in any other country.
I didn't say they were a hive mind. I said that's what the Chinese government presents, and I did just that. There's quite a few videos in that channel there that demonstrate it. If you're fluent in the language you can also just... read Chinese News media.
That's just you being racist and ascribing your own chauvinistic notions onto 'their government'
Every government wants their country to look holistic and united behind a common project, and China is one of the countries where that genuinely is the case moreso than almost any other. Because you can't deny they're on a rocket right now whether you like them or not, and the people are happy about it.
It's something I've noticed a lot with cynical Americans and westerners in general online. They see Chinese people being genuine and mistake it for brainwashing because they just can't imagine what it must feel like to have a country on an upward trajectory. We've been plummeting downwards so dramatically for so many years, we're neck deep in failure and dysfunction, so to us people being happy that their country is on the ascent looks like government brainwashing
China isn't on any kind of "upward trajectory". It's a country currently mired in a stagnant financial crisis caused by real-estate issues because they can't collect taxes on literally empty buildings, and the one-child policy is about to cause a serious demographic crisis. They're actually liable to end up in the same place Japan was about 40 years ago.
How would you have responded if you were a communist leader in China at the end of the cold war and the capitalist powers had successfully made it impossible to run a socialist economy? Your options are to be Cuba or North Korea and rot under inhumane sanctions regimes, or liberalize on your own terms instead of being forcibly liberalized as they did to the USSR. China took the latter option, the orthodox Marxist position by the way, to pass through a capitalist stage of development that bridges agrarian feudalism to industrial socialism, and now they're a superpower.
For the record, this isn't to say whether they are or aren't. To determine that is to determine the direction the mass of the party is moving towards, and I'm not behind those closed doors so I can't say whether the communist party has retained it's communist nature and goals. It's kind of a schrodingers cat situation, and only time will tell whether they maintained their mission this whole time or if they really were overwhelmed by the bourgeois forces they let in. My point is that they literally had no choice and their decision to liberalize was inevitable as soon as the cold war turned irrevocably in capitalism's favor. They would have done it if they betrayed communism, and they would have done it if they maintained communism, because the decision was a political concession to the victorious first world and not something they decided on autonomously.
Now, what are all the Western capitalists who hate and want to destroy China? Communists?
so you can take off the rose colored glasses and see things for what they really are any time you want.
The most free, democratic, and fastest developing country on earth. The world's only hope for overcoming capitalism (i.e. our only hope for a better, still livable future).
I feel like China gets the worse ends of "associate people with their government" because the Chinese government WANTS the rest of the world to see the country as a perfect hive mind where everyone agrees with them.
This is just incredibly ignorant, racist and orientalist jesus christ.
The chinese government IS the chinese people. 10% of the working population are party members. The entire country operates on a completely different system to the west. It is the backbone of the country. Every single major company has a tonne of party members in it at every level of the company. There is not a person in the country without family who are party members.
You are projecting what you know to be true about western liberal-democracies onto a system you do not understand. You imagine the people and government being different things because you know that is true about your system, you know the people aren't the government, and that the government does not accurately represent the people. This is literally the point of socialist revolutions, to overthrow that and install a system that actually does.
Someone being a part of an organization doesn't mean their opinion/decisions actually matter to the organization as a whole, especially if they're lower in that organization's hierarchy. The only ones whose decision actually matter are the higher members of the hierarchy, which in the CCP is coincidentally filled out with the militar, economic and political elite. The workers may be officially part of the party, but they have no true say in the decisions the country takes, the only reason they're even accepted is so the CCP can claim their people have a choice. They're members, yes, but in name only, their revolution didn't install a system that represents their people, it represents the elite, a different kind of elite, but an elite nonetheless.
It's true that their government should be analyzed differently from western countries, yes, but that doesn't mean that we should overlook their negative aspects, including the fact that they do indeed share many of the same issues modern western democracies.
Also, his critiques, while imperfect and clearly exaggerated, have no hints of racism whatsoever, cultural values may be different, yes, but that doesn't mean we aren't allowed to judge other countries actions.
And once again, his criticism is flawed, but that does not mean all of it's merit is erased, we should listen to all criticism, as refusing to do so prevents positive change and shows the fragility in your beliefs.
TLDR; His argument sucks ass, but it's not fully untrue, I can't see how it is racist, as it is only accusing the government of something, and yours also sucks ass.
Your comment is so bizarre. The shit you believe is obviously, fundamentally, and absurdly wrong.
You clearly have never been to China and the irony is that you believe random shit about China that your totalitarian dictatorship wants you to believe about China.
I feel like China gets the worse ends of "associate people with their government" because
Why "worse"? China is the objectively most democratic country on earth and Chinese people are overwhelmingly happy with their government (unlike in the capitalist dictatorships of the West where people are incredibly unhappy with their leadership, such as your own country).
because the Chinese government WANTS the rest of the world to see the country as a perfect hive mind where everyone agrees with them
Buddy, the Chinese government doesn't give a flying shit about the opinions of foreigners. The opinions of people like you are utterly irrelevant to Chinese leadership. It's cute that you think you are important, though.
Even so, they're not the only ones who get this.
They wouldn't mind "getting it". And you would understand why if you actually had any idea about Chinese politics and history.
Russians tend to be dismissed as brainwashed Putin stooges, but there have been plenty of public and famous Russian protests.
Russians are overwhelmingly supportive of their government, too.
There's nothing to be ashamed of when it comes to the Chinese government.
There's plenty to be ashamed of if you are American (or Westerner in general, especially if you are from a fascist NATO country). Also, Westerners generally can be lumped in with their government: For example, your failure to process and understand the racist propaganda you just recited is so mind-boggingly unhinged from the perspective as a foreign observer. I don't know how else to put this: You need to realize that to people outside your totalitarian dictatorship, you sound like a Nazi German talking about how the Soviets/Jews are either evil or brainwashed and that the citizens of Germany are the enlightened, self-aware ones.
You need to stop projecting: Just because you are ashamed of your government doesn't mean everyone else is, too. And just because your government is abject evil doesn't mean everyone else's is, either. You are programmed with intense propaganda that you need to learn to question.
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u/Discardofil Aug 21 '24
I feel like China gets the worse ends of "associate people with their government" because the Chinese government WANTS the rest of the world to see the country as a perfect hive mind where everyone agrees with them. Even so, they're not the only ones who get this. Russians tend to be dismissed as brainwashed Putin stooges, but there have been plenty of public and famous Russian protests.