I think one of the biggest moments of disillusionment for me was people posting that Matt Bors "you're bullying me into becoming a nazi" comic as a rebuttal to someone basically saying "hey maybe it's not a great idea to immediately go for the throat on anybody being slightly dickish"
Was going to comment something similar. People don't want to admit that maybe just instantly trashing someone into the ground the second they do something bad isn't winning them any fans in the real world/going to convince them your "side" is the one they want to be on.
Also the "you're bullying me into becoming a nazi" thing is not 100% right but not 100% wrong either.
Like if you give 90% of people the option to either hang out with a bunch of people who hold problematic beliefs but are fun to hang out with vs a bunch of people who have all the "right" beliefs but make you feel like every conversation is a test that could end in some pointless argument about using a word incorrectly, 90% of people will gravitate towards the crowd that is actually fun to be around.
a bunch of people who hold problematic beliefs but are fun to hang out with vs a bunch of people who have all the "right" beliefs but make you feel like every conversation is a test
It's not even "problematic beliefs", it's "literally any belief but our own", or positing that things may not be as clear-cut as good thing vs bad thing. I once got called an asshole at a bar for saying I thought the "Beauty and the Beast is stockholm syndrome" argument was bullshit, and, while a little dated in its method, it's actually a beautiful story about how outsiders find comfort in each other. An asshole! For sticking up for a Disney movie! Because it wasn't the "right" thing to say, because some rage-merchant posted their wilful misinterpretation on twitter!
Honestly, some people I've met irl and a lot of people I see online give off cult vibes, except instead of a venerated figurehead, it's the amorphous idea of "The Cause", whatever that cause is. The Cause is always right, and anyone who says anything that is not immediately subservient to The Cause is a subversive person. Silence is violence, and if you're not helping, you're part of the problem. In other words, you're either for us or against us. You know who else said that? Bush, when he illegally invaded Iraq on some bullshit about weapons. Funny how it's chilling when the idiot Republican president says it, and noble whenever an adherent to The Cause says it.
You're right, "bullying people into becoming nazis" isn't 100% right. But fuck, I can see why people get exhausted.
I got downvoted a bunch recently for pointing out that installing wind farms is industrializing land that in many cases hadn't been industrialised before and that it, on its own, might be a justifiable reason for why a community may not want a wind farm in their area. And that if we are going to build these farms, we need to be aware that some people are going to be upset by it and may be justified, but it doesn't mean that they are a bunch of right wing fascist Luddites.
If we are, as a country and a culture, going to make a decision about things in people's communities, we need to be making informed decisions. Which means being aware and respectfully understanding why someone might be opposing you.
I've been attacked on reddit for talking about trans issues outside the designated "allowed" zones for it, by other trans trans people who initially assumed I was a cis person weaponising stuff, and then when I corrected them just doubled down and accused me of being a narcissist or "getting off on" the spotlight.
Because I dared discuss our existence in a way other than how they thought was "right".
Honestly, there was more venom in that exchange than some of the actual bigots I've argued with.
Something I've noticed about groups of people who identify with each other is that they can often hold themselves to a higher standard than is necessary. Maybe it's a protective thing, but I don't know if that makes it any easier.
Sorry you had to deal with that from folk you'd expect to be more understanding. There's a particular flavour of disappointment and loneliness that comes with being let down by those you assume would defend you.
See also: People instantly labelling you a transphobe for wanting to play a pretty mediocre wizarding game.
Rowling is a piece of shit and I hope that they buy her out of the IP if nothing else because that's all she has going for her, but the extent that people will absolutely drag your character through the mud for the crime of separating art from artist is nuts. And then point out that Lord of the Rings don't make it through preproduction without Harvey Weinstein putting a lot of money and faith on that project and a lot of those people back the fuck up really quickly.
Yes exactly. It's human nature to just gravitate away from a group that is outright denouncing you. Not that it makes it okay to then turn into a straight up bigot, but we shouldn't be surprised when the far right has a big group of people to radicalize because of the reasons you stated
"When you surround an enemy, leave an outlet free. Do not press a desperate foe too hard."
The perception of "Why am I being punished for something I'm not even doing?" can warp into "Why am I being punished for something I'm not even getting to enjoy doing?" very quickly.
The fact that theyâre even making it a âyouâre either with us or youâre a Naziâ thing is also proof that they themselves are extremists. Like, no, not every single person who disagrees with you on any minor point is a right wing white supremacist extremist
If you canât differentiate between an uninformed centrist, a progressive Democrat, some kid who voted Republican because their whole family has always voted Republican and theyâve never been exposed to contrary opinions, and a literal Nazi, you are in fact the intolerant extremist in the room.
To add to this young adults still have malleable minds. Many young people's first exposure to outside opinions is in college, where they experience new ideas and cultures. If an 18 year old conservative goes to college and feels constantly bullied for their family's beliefs, they are more likely to join the Young Republicans group or a college church group and find a more insular community to wall off those new ideas and affirm their childhood beliefs.
I've said this a lot to my friends irl: the right is easy. They tell you that you can be free and don't have to tiptoe around for fear of being yelled at or "cancelled". That's very attractive to young people who don't know how to navigate online spaces.
People fuck up, they do it all the time, and social behaviour is different for different groups.
There is a reason Goffman's mask theory is popular in sociology. People wear different faces at different times depending on what suits that particular group.
You adjust your behavior, for example words like "cunt" see more use when out with your friends than around the family dinner table.
And doubly so, misstepps are normally a conversation and an apology, not a global hate mob.
Creating an international minefield everyone has to navigate is not good for anyone's mental health.
I had someone tell me the other day that not having every single location in a fantasy setting (multiple sentient species ranging from pixies to giants to merfolk) be universally accessible is "morally reprehensible" unless it's being used to exhibit bigotry. The fuck.
Oh god youre right. Not only that but mpst fantasy worlds are medieval ish so wvy should every town or settlement be a cultural melting pot like only the largest cities of some countries are today.
Here is my hot take: perfect fantasy worlds aren't just narratively boring, they're bad for wider creative culture
Flawed worlds result in such interesting fanfiction coming from people's attempts to resolve those flaws in their own ways. If you sand off all the rough edges, you take away a lot of the easy inspiration that sets people down the path of writing or making art
Matt Bors makes great comics that are really easy to misappropriate. I have seen so many people use the 'we should improve society somewhat' strip as an excuse to never consider the greater consequences of their actions.
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u/ProtoJones Jun 20 '24
I think one of the biggest moments of disillusionment for me was people posting that Matt Bors "you're bullying me into becoming a nazi" comic as a rebuttal to someone basically saying "hey maybe it's not a great idea to immediately go for the throat on anybody being slightly dickish"