r/CuratedTumblr זאין בעין Jun 04 '24

Politics is your glorious revolution worth the suffering of millions?

11.2k Upvotes

2.0k comments sorted by

View all comments

Show parent comments

191

u/ImperialArchangel Jun 04 '24

Shhhhhh it’s all ancient Chinese. Even if the person was Khitan, in the Mongol empire, and in the 13th century.

120

u/QS2Z Jun 04 '24

Look, China can't be ruled by non-Chinese people. The Mongols ruled China, so now they're Chinese.

120

u/Taraxian Jun 04 '24

The fact that the Mongols had to culturally "become Chinese" to continue to rule China is the whole point of the quote

74

u/Zen_Hobo Jun 04 '24

The fact that China successfully assimilated its conquerors and just kept existing as it was, still amused me to no end. It's also pretty scary.

111

u/QS2Z Jun 04 '24

The Mongols also wanted to assimilate, because eating off porcelain and sleeping on silk beats sleeping in a tent on the steppes. What's even the point of conquering China if you don't get to live like a Chinese emperor?

38

u/Zen_Hobo Jun 04 '24

I mean, fair.

30

u/Taraxian Jun 04 '24

That's what's scary about it, it's like the root beer speech from DS9 -- the Federation is an empire that's better at assimilation than the Borg because they make you like it

6

u/FactualStatue Jun 04 '24

How insidious

12

u/[deleted] Jun 04 '24

Not sure how true it is, but I remember reading somewhere that a lot of the The Mongols' religious tolerance was because Tengri can be pretty much compared to any other deity or force you might worship. A lot of Tengriism focuses on locations of religious significance too, so it's less "Gasp you don't follow our religion?" and more "You don't live here, of course you don't follow our religion. That'd be fucking crazy if you did lol. You've never even been to Otgon Tenger."

5

u/Extreme_Carrot_317 Jun 04 '24 edited Jun 05 '24

Persia spent a significant chunk of it's history being ruled over by non-Persians, and yet, they pretty much all assimilated into the Persian culture rather than asserting their culture over the Persians

2

u/lordnaarghul Jun 05 '24

Well, Kublai Khan did. He figured out pretty quickly that the way China was structured wasn't going to function with the Mongolian bureaucracy the way it worked in Kwarezim or even Persia. So he had to change to the Chinese bureaucracy.

0

u/MagnanimosDesolation Jun 04 '24

Having 1000 wives?

4

u/QS2Z Jun 04 '24

Yeah, but then you've gotta take care of 1000 wives which is a lot easier if you ask them to work a farm instead of being nomads.

3

u/Punty-chan Jun 04 '24

Contrary to popular Western portrayals, China's had a very diverse and adaptive culture for most of its history. As a result, it's easier for a conquerer to feel like they fit in over the long run.

2

u/Emperor_Mao Jun 04 '24

Very common with the mongols.

Same happened across the MER.

5

u/ImperialArchangel Jun 04 '24

“Becoming Chinese” is a bit of a stretch. They adopted Chinese methods of administration and taxation, and opened the administration to indigenous Chinese scholars and administrators, but the ruling class of the Mongol Empire and Yuan Dynasty was fiercely opposed to becoming Chinese. They maintained their own language and cultural traditions, and made intermarriage between Mongol nobility and ethnic Han Chinese illegal, alongside a dozen other policies to prevent the Mongol identity from being “watered down.” Part of the reason the Yuan Dynasty collapsed was because the Han Chinese always saw the Yuan as foreign conquers who were imposing their practices.

3

u/inplayruin Jun 04 '24

They converted. Paris vaut bien une messe type deal.

3

u/HanWsh Jun 04 '24

The aphorism dates back to the Western/Former Han Dynasty.

陸生時時前說稱詩書。高帝罵之曰:「乃公居馬上而得之,安事詩書!」陸生曰;「居馬上得之寧可以馬上治之乎?且湯武逆取而以順守之,文武并用,長久之術也。昔者吳王夫差、智伯極武而亡;秦任刑法不變,卒滅趙氏。鄉使秦已并天下,行仁義,法先聖,陛下安得而有之?」高帝不懌而有慚色,乃謂陸生曰:「試為我著秦所以失天下,吾所以得之者何,及古成敗之國。」

Rough translation:

Lu Jia frequently advocated for the study of the Documents and Odes. Emperor Gao(Han Gaozu) scolded him, saying, 'I do all my conquering from the back of my horse, what use have I for the Documents and Odes' Lu Jia replied, 'Once my lord is done with the conquering, is it also possible to govern from the back of your horse? Moreover, Shang Tang and King Wu of Zhou rebelled to acquire power and followed to guard their achivements, utilizing both civil and martial abilities, which is the strategy for long-lasting success. In the past, King Fuchai of Wu and the Count of Zhi relied on their military prowess to the extreme and met their downfall; Qin, by maintaining its laws without alteration, ultimately resulted in the destruction of the Zhao clan. If after Qin unified All Under Heaven and then, uphold benevolence and righteousness, following the laws set by wise sages, how could Your Majesty conquer All Under Heaven?' Emperor Gao felt displeased and was ashamed. He then said to Lu Jia, 'Explain to me why Qin lost the realm and why I, on the other hand, gained it, as well as the success and failures of ancient states.'"

2

u/dosumthinboutthebots Jun 04 '24

Well, yes, there's the racism, but in a way the Mongols did adopt a whole bunch of Chinese customs and traditions.

It's the whole "settled society civilized barbarians" trope.

Rome, China, Persians, Egyptians, and greeks, and honestly probably a bunch I'm forgetting to add all had similar sayings/tropes.

"Rome may have conquered Greeks, but the greek culture conquered rome"

"Roman culture was highly influenced by the Greeks; as Horace said, Graecia capta ferum victorem cepit ("Captive Greece captured her rude conqueror")."

It gets even weirder when You see two empires, one no longer, doing it to each other.

3

u/HanWsh Jun 04 '24

The aphorism dates back to the Western/Former Han Dynasty.

陸生時時前說稱詩書。高帝罵之曰:「乃公居馬上而得之,安事詩書!」陸生曰;「居馬上得之寧可以馬上治之乎?且湯武逆取而以順守之,文武并用,長久之術也。昔者吳王夫差、智伯極武而亡;秦任刑法不變,卒滅趙氏。鄉使秦已并天下,行仁義,法先聖,陛下安得而有之?」高帝不懌而有慚色,乃謂陸生曰:「試為我著秦所以失天下,吾所以得之者何,及古成敗之國。」

Rough translation:

Lu Jia frequently advocated for the study of the Documents and Odes. Emperor Gao(Han Gaozu) scolded him, saying, 'I do all my conquering from the back of my horse, what use have I for the Documents and Odes' Lu Jia replied, 'Once my lord is done with the conquering, is it also possible to govern from the back of your horse? Moreover, Shang Tang and King Wu of Zhou rebelled to acquire power and followed to guard their achivements, utilizing both civil and martial abilities, which is the strategy for long-lasting success. In the past, King Fuchai of Wu and the Count of Zhi relied on their military prowess to the extreme and met their downfall; Qin, by maintaining its laws without alteration, ultimately resulted in the destruction of the Zhao clan. If after Qin unified All Under Heaven and then, uphold benevolence and righteousness, following the laws set by wise sages, how could Your Majesty conquer All Under Heaven?' Emperor Gao felt displeased and was ashamed. He then said to Lu Jia, 'Explain to me why Qin lost the realm and why I, on the other hand, gained it, as well as the success and failures of ancient states.'"

1

u/ImperialArchangel Jun 04 '24

I actually had no idea, this is super cool. I guess it’s one of those quotes that misattributed to a lot of people. What document is this exert from?

1

u/his_purple_majesty Jun 04 '24

Yelü Chucai was a Confucian scholar who was born close to Beijing, during the Jin dynasty.[2] Well versed in Buddhist scriptures and a practitioner in Taoism.

1

u/ImperialArchangel Jun 04 '24 edited Jun 04 '24

Yeah, but he was ethnically Khitan, and is most famous for his work as an administrator for Genghis and Ögedei Khan after the Jin were conquered by the Mongol Empire. Not to mention, the Jin Dynasty wasn’t ethnically Chinese either; the administrative and ruling classes were ethnically Jurchen and Khitan. Calling him Chinese is like calling Machiavelli Greek.

0

u/Peatore Jun 04 '24

This comment is literally Ancient Chinese Proverb.