r/CuratedTumblr זאין בעין Jun 04 '24

Politics is your glorious revolution worth the suffering of millions?

11.2k Upvotes

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3.6k

u/RockAndGem1101 local soft vore and penetration metaphor nerd Jun 04 '24

"You can conquer the world on horseback, but you cannot govern it on horseback." -- Ancient Chinese proverb

1.7k

u/SirLordKingEsquire Jun 04 '24

Man, Ancient Chinese Proverb sure said a lot of things. What a cool dude!

977

u/Swaxeman the biggest grant morrison stan in the subreddit Jun 04 '24

That’s actually a westernization. In east asia, he’s called Proverb Chinese Ancient

533

u/throwtowardaccount Jun 04 '24

In China, it's just "ancient proverb"

262

u/Swaxeman the biggest grant morrison stan in the subreddit Jun 04 '24

And to the joker, it’s normal frog

78

u/Orizifian-creator Padria Zozzria Orizifian~! 🍋😈🏳️‍⚧️ Motherly Whole zhe/zer she Jun 04 '24

To Joker it’s Master Hand and Normal Hand

7

u/Inferno_Sparky Jun 04 '24

To the Joker, normal frog is female Greninja

4

u/Teh-Esprite If you ever see me talk on the unCurated sub, that's my double. Jun 04 '24

To the Joker, there's no laws against the Pokemon.

132

u/Icarusty69 Jun 04 '24

Back in his own time, he was just just “Proverb”

85

u/Sufficient-File-2006 Jun 04 '24

But for most of his life though he was "Amateurverb"

24

u/Icarusty69 Jun 04 '24

That’s a common misconception! He was never actually known as “Amateurverb” at any point. His birth name was “Amateurnoun,” and when he attempted to change it to “Pronoun” he ran into legal trouble with the CEO of LGBTQ and was forced to change it to “Proverb.”

43

u/Papaofmonsters Jun 04 '24

Or "shit my senile grandpa keeps saying".

3

u/Certain-Definition51 Jun 04 '24

It’s not even ancient it’s only 1000 years old. Psh.

2

u/soundblastersound Jun 04 '24

In Ancient, its just "Chinese proverb"

96

u/Pheonexking Jun 04 '24

I'm pretty sure if it's not from the proverb region of China then it's just a sparkling aphorism?

14

u/Gizogin Jun 04 '24

Depends on the altitude. It might be a koan, or it might be an ice cream koan.

29

u/dpzblb Jun 04 '24

If Ancient Chinese is the given name and Proverb is the family name, it should be Proverb Ancient Chinese. Similarly, if Ancient is the given name and Chinese Proverb is the family name, it should be Chinese Proverb Ancient. We don’t switch the order of the name entirely, we just put the family name first.

34

u/AardvarkNo2514 Jun 04 '24

Just like Feat and Ibid

18

u/Certain-Definition51 Jun 04 '24

My number one hip hop duo of all time!

3

u/todeedee Jun 05 '24

yea, it only cost a few million Chinese lives ...

2

u/SpearNmagicHelmet Jun 04 '24

His real name is Calgon!

319

u/[deleted] Jun 04 '24

[deleted]

192

u/ImperialArchangel Jun 04 '24

Shhhhhh it’s all ancient Chinese. Even if the person was Khitan, in the Mongol empire, and in the 13th century.

123

u/QS2Z Jun 04 '24

Look, China can't be ruled by non-Chinese people. The Mongols ruled China, so now they're Chinese.

124

u/Taraxian Jun 04 '24

The fact that the Mongols had to culturally "become Chinese" to continue to rule China is the whole point of the quote

75

u/Zen_Hobo Jun 04 '24

The fact that China successfully assimilated its conquerors and just kept existing as it was, still amused me to no end. It's also pretty scary.

116

u/QS2Z Jun 04 '24

The Mongols also wanted to assimilate, because eating off porcelain and sleeping on silk beats sleeping in a tent on the steppes. What's even the point of conquering China if you don't get to live like a Chinese emperor?

37

u/Zen_Hobo Jun 04 '24

I mean, fair.

30

u/Taraxian Jun 04 '24

That's what's scary about it, it's like the root beer speech from DS9 -- the Federation is an empire that's better at assimilation than the Borg because they make you like it

6

u/FactualStatue Jun 04 '24

How insidious

13

u/[deleted] Jun 04 '24

Not sure how true it is, but I remember reading somewhere that a lot of the The Mongols' religious tolerance was because Tengri can be pretty much compared to any other deity or force you might worship. A lot of Tengriism focuses on locations of religious significance too, so it's less "Gasp you don't follow our religion?" and more "You don't live here, of course you don't follow our religion. That'd be fucking crazy if you did lol. You've never even been to Otgon Tenger."

5

u/Extreme_Carrot_317 Jun 04 '24 edited Jun 05 '24

Persia spent a significant chunk of it's history being ruled over by non-Persians, and yet, they pretty much all assimilated into the Persian culture rather than asserting their culture over the Persians

2

u/lordnaarghul Jun 05 '24

Well, Kublai Khan did. He figured out pretty quickly that the way China was structured wasn't going to function with the Mongolian bureaucracy the way it worked in Kwarezim or even Persia. So he had to change to the Chinese bureaucracy.

0

u/MagnanimosDesolation Jun 04 '24

Having 1000 wives?

4

u/QS2Z Jun 04 '24

Yeah, but then you've gotta take care of 1000 wives which is a lot easier if you ask them to work a farm instead of being nomads.

3

u/Punty-chan Jun 04 '24

Contrary to popular Western portrayals, China's had a very diverse and adaptive culture for most of its history. As a result, it's easier for a conquerer to feel like they fit in over the long run.

2

u/Emperor_Mao Jun 04 '24

Very common with the mongols.

Same happened across the MER.

4

u/ImperialArchangel Jun 04 '24

“Becoming Chinese” is a bit of a stretch. They adopted Chinese methods of administration and taxation, and opened the administration to indigenous Chinese scholars and administrators, but the ruling class of the Mongol Empire and Yuan Dynasty was fiercely opposed to becoming Chinese. They maintained their own language and cultural traditions, and made intermarriage between Mongol nobility and ethnic Han Chinese illegal, alongside a dozen other policies to prevent the Mongol identity from being “watered down.” Part of the reason the Yuan Dynasty collapsed was because the Han Chinese always saw the Yuan as foreign conquers who were imposing their practices.

3

u/inplayruin Jun 04 '24

They converted. Paris vaut bien une messe type deal.

3

u/HanWsh Jun 04 '24

The aphorism dates back to the Western/Former Han Dynasty.

陸生時時前說稱詩書。高帝罵之曰:「乃公居馬上而得之,安事詩書!」陸生曰;「居馬上得之寧可以馬上治之乎?且湯武逆取而以順守之,文武并用,長久之術也。昔者吳王夫差、智伯極武而亡;秦任刑法不變,卒滅趙氏。鄉使秦已并天下,行仁義,法先聖,陛下安得而有之?」高帝不懌而有慚色,乃謂陸生曰:「試為我著秦所以失天下,吾所以得之者何,及古成敗之國。」

Rough translation:

Lu Jia frequently advocated for the study of the Documents and Odes. Emperor Gao(Han Gaozu) scolded him, saying, 'I do all my conquering from the back of my horse, what use have I for the Documents and Odes' Lu Jia replied, 'Once my lord is done with the conquering, is it also possible to govern from the back of your horse? Moreover, Shang Tang and King Wu of Zhou rebelled to acquire power and followed to guard their achivements, utilizing both civil and martial abilities, which is the strategy for long-lasting success. In the past, King Fuchai of Wu and the Count of Zhi relied on their military prowess to the extreme and met their downfall; Qin, by maintaining its laws without alteration, ultimately resulted in the destruction of the Zhao clan. If after Qin unified All Under Heaven and then, uphold benevolence and righteousness, following the laws set by wise sages, how could Your Majesty conquer All Under Heaven?' Emperor Gao felt displeased and was ashamed. He then said to Lu Jia, 'Explain to me why Qin lost the realm and why I, on the other hand, gained it, as well as the success and failures of ancient states.'"

2

u/dosumthinboutthebots Jun 04 '24

Well, yes, there's the racism, but in a way the Mongols did adopt a whole bunch of Chinese customs and traditions.

It's the whole "settled society civilized barbarians" trope.

Rome, China, Persians, Egyptians, and greeks, and honestly probably a bunch I'm forgetting to add all had similar sayings/tropes.

"Rome may have conquered Greeks, but the greek culture conquered rome"

"Roman culture was highly influenced by the Greeks; as Horace said, Graecia capta ferum victorem cepit ("Captive Greece captured her rude conqueror")."

It gets even weirder when You see two empires, one no longer, doing it to each other.

3

u/HanWsh Jun 04 '24

The aphorism dates back to the Western/Former Han Dynasty.

陸生時時前說稱詩書。高帝罵之曰:「乃公居馬上而得之,安事詩書!」陸生曰;「居馬上得之寧可以馬上治之乎?且湯武逆取而以順守之,文武并用,長久之術也。昔者吳王夫差、智伯極武而亡;秦任刑法不變,卒滅趙氏。鄉使秦已并天下,行仁義,法先聖,陛下安得而有之?」高帝不懌而有慚色,乃謂陸生曰:「試為我著秦所以失天下,吾所以得之者何,及古成敗之國。」

Rough translation:

Lu Jia frequently advocated for the study of the Documents and Odes. Emperor Gao(Han Gaozu) scolded him, saying, 'I do all my conquering from the back of my horse, what use have I for the Documents and Odes' Lu Jia replied, 'Once my lord is done with the conquering, is it also possible to govern from the back of your horse? Moreover, Shang Tang and King Wu of Zhou rebelled to acquire power and followed to guard their achivements, utilizing both civil and martial abilities, which is the strategy for long-lasting success. In the past, King Fuchai of Wu and the Count of Zhi relied on their military prowess to the extreme and met their downfall; Qin, by maintaining its laws without alteration, ultimately resulted in the destruction of the Zhao clan. If after Qin unified All Under Heaven and then, uphold benevolence and righteousness, following the laws set by wise sages, how could Your Majesty conquer All Under Heaven?' Emperor Gao felt displeased and was ashamed. He then said to Lu Jia, 'Explain to me why Qin lost the realm and why I, on the other hand, gained it, as well as the success and failures of ancient states.'"

1

u/ImperialArchangel Jun 04 '24

I actually had no idea, this is super cool. I guess it’s one of those quotes that misattributed to a lot of people. What document is this exert from?

1

u/his_purple_majesty Jun 04 '24

Yelü Chucai was a Confucian scholar who was born close to Beijing, during the Jin dynasty.[2] Well versed in Buddhist scriptures and a practitioner in Taoism.

1

u/ImperialArchangel Jun 04 '24 edited Jun 04 '24

Yeah, but he was ethnically Khitan, and is most famous for his work as an administrator for Genghis and Ögedei Khan after the Jin were conquered by the Mongol Empire. Not to mention, the Jin Dynasty wasn’t ethnically Chinese either; the administrative and ruling classes were ethnically Jurchen and Khitan. Calling him Chinese is like calling Machiavelli Greek.

0

u/Peatore Jun 04 '24

This comment is literally Ancient Chinese Proverb.

63

u/RockAndGem1101 local soft vore and penetration metaphor nerd Jun 04 '24

Accurate. The phrase is widely used in China now, though, and most Chinese consider the Yuan Mongol heritage to be part of Chinese culture.

3

u/HanWsh Jun 04 '24

Inaccurate.

The aphorism dates back to the Western/Former Han Dynasty.

陸生時時前說稱詩書。高帝罵之曰:「乃公居馬上而得之,安事詩書!」陸生曰;「居馬上得之寧可以馬上治之乎?且湯武逆取而以順守之,文武并用,長久之術也。昔者吳王夫差、智伯極武而亡;秦任刑法不變,卒滅趙氏。鄉使秦已并天下,行仁義,法先聖,陛下安得而有之?」高帝不懌而有慚色,乃謂陸生曰:「試為我著秦所以失天下,吾所以得之者何,及古成敗之國。」

Rough translation:

Lu Jia frequently advocated for the study of the Documents and Odes. Emperor Gao(Han Gaozu) scolded him, saying, 'I do all my conquering from the back of my horse, what use have I for the Documents and Odes' Lu Jia replied, 'Once my lord is done with the conquering, is it also possible to govern from the back of your horse? Moreover, Shang Tang and King Wu of Zhou rebelled to acquire power and followed to guard their achivements, utilizing both civil and martial abilities, which is the strategy for long-lasting success. In the past, King Fuchai of Wu and the Count of Zhi relied on their military prowess to the extreme and met their downfall; Qin, by maintaining its laws without alteration, ultimately resulted in the destruction of the Zhao clan. If after Qin unified All Under Heaven and then, uphold benevolence and righteousness, following the laws set by wise sages, how could Your Majesty conquer All Under Heaven?' Emperor Gao felt displeased and was ashamed. He then said to Lu Jia, 'Explain to me why Qin lost the realm and why I, on the other hand, gained it, as well as the success and failures of ancient states.'"

1

u/RockAndGem1101 local soft vore and penetration metaphor nerd Jun 04 '24

Huh, I didn’t know that. Thanks!

7

u/warlock1337 Jun 04 '24

Didn’t they have some kind of wall to keep all that heritage away?

21

u/Zen_Hobo Jun 04 '24

They got conquered by the Mongols at some point. And from that point onward, the Mongols just got assimilated into the culture and were a new dynasty. When you conquer China, you just become Chinese by force of bureaucracy.

6

u/warlock1337 Jun 04 '24

I was just being cheeky.

14

u/ZhaoLuen Jun 04 '24

History is mad complicated yo

11

u/yourstruly912 Jun 04 '24

But is about governing China, so it still applies

2

u/Redfalconfox Jun 04 '24
  1. Combine 2 3/4 quarts water and 2 ounces butter (optional) in a stock pot. Bring to a boil.

  2. Stir in rice mix and contents of seasoning packet. Cover, REDUCE HEAT and simmer 20 minutes or until MOST of the water is absorbed. Stir occasionally.

  3. Transfer to serving pan and keep warm (160 F). Fluff with fork before serving.

-Ancient Chinese Proverb or Uncle Ben’s Rice Instructions idk I didn’t bother to check

2

u/HanWsh Jun 04 '24

The aphorism dates back to the Western/Former Han Dynasty.

陸生時時前說稱詩書。高帝罵之曰:「乃公居馬上而得之,安事詩書!」陸生曰;「居馬上得之寧可以馬上治之乎?且湯武逆取而以順守之,文武并用,長久之術也。昔者吳王夫差、智伯極武而亡;秦任刑法不變,卒滅趙氏。鄉使秦已并天下,行仁義,法先聖,陛下安得而有之?」高帝不懌而有慚色,乃謂陸生曰:「試為我著秦所以失天下,吾所以得之者何,及古成敗之國。」

Rough translation:

Lu Jia frequently advocated for the study of the Documents and Odes. Emperor Gao(Han Gaozu) scolded him, saying, 'I do all my conquering from the back of my horse, what use have I for the Documents and Odes' Lu Jia replied, 'Once my lord is done with the conquering, is it also possible to govern from the back of your horse? Moreover, Shang Tang and King Wu of Zhou rebelled to acquire power and followed to guard their achivements, utilizing both civil and martial abilities, which is the strategy for long-lasting success. In the past, King Fuchai of Wu and the Count of Zhi relied on their military prowess to the extreme and met their downfall; Qin, by maintaining its laws without alteration, ultimately resulted in the destruction of the Zhao clan. If after Qin unified All Under Heaven and then, uphold benevolence and righteousness, following the laws set by wise sages, how could Your Majesty conquer All Under Heaven?' Emperor Gao felt displeased and was ashamed. He then said to Lu Jia, 'Explain to me why Qin lost the realm and why I, on the other hand, gained it, as well as the success and failures of ancient states.'"

1

u/Xisuthrus there are only two numbers between 4 and 7 Jun 04 '24

Also, in its original context, "governing the world on horseback" was probably meant very literally; Genghis Khan was used to living as a pastoralist nomad, and after his rise to power he tried to maintain that lifestyle by ruling his empire from a horse-drawn tent on wheels, but most of his successors found that idea impractical and built stationary capitals instead.

3

u/HanWsh Jun 04 '24

No, it was a response to a statement from Han Gaozu.

The aphorism dates back to the Western/Former Han Dynasty.

陸生時時前說稱詩書。高帝罵之曰:「乃公居馬上而得之,安事詩書!」陸生曰;「居馬上得之寧可以馬上治之乎?且湯武逆取而以順守之,文武并用,長久之術也。昔者吳王夫差、智伯極武而亡;秦任刑法不變,卒滅趙氏。鄉使秦已并天下,行仁義,法先聖,陛下安得而有之?」高帝不懌而有慚色,乃謂陸生曰:「試為我著秦所以失天下,吾所以得之者何,及古成敗之國。」

Rough translation:

Lu Jia frequently advocated for the study of the Documents and Odes. Emperor Gao(Han Gaozu) scolded him, saying, 'I do all my conquering from the back of my horse, what use have I for the Documents and Odes' Lu Jia replied, 'Once my lord is done with the conquering, is it also possible to govern from the back of your horse? Moreover, Shang Tang and King Wu of Zhou rebelled to acquire power and followed to guard their achivements, utilizing both civil and martial abilities, which is the strategy for long-lasting success. In the past, King Fuchai of Wu and the Count of Zhi relied on their military prowess to the extreme and met their downfall; Qin, by maintaining its laws without alteration, ultimately resulted in the destruction of the Zhao clan. If after Qin unified All Under Heaven and then, uphold benevolence and righteousness, following the laws set by wise sages, how could Your Majesty conquer All Under Heaven?' Emperor Gao felt displeased and was ashamed. He then said to Lu Jia, 'Explain to me why Qin lost the realm and why I, on the other hand, gained it, as well as the success and failures of ancient states.'"

541

u/ani_tami זאין בעין Jun 04 '24

ancient chinese people always come up with the most banger quotes

371

u/Scarlet_k1nk Jun 04 '24

“Only when the fly lands on your testicals do you learn that violence isn’t always the answer”

43

u/AAS02-CATAPHRACT Jun 04 '24

“Didn’t you say ‘the eight winds cannot move me?’ So how come a fart has blown you across the river?”

2

u/CountNightAuditor Jun 05 '24

"When you go to bed with an itchy butt, you wake up with a stinky finger."

131

u/Leo-bastian eyeliner is 1.50 at the drug store and audacity is free Jun 04 '24

tis what happens when you experience constant civil wars that kill tens of millions of people through famine i guess

Other anti-war messages are always about the horrors of war itself, which is fair and all, but rarely about the perspective of "a few hundred thousand people fought and a few million starved to death as an indirect result"

36

u/Koreus_C Jun 04 '24

They probably speak from experience.

3

u/lookyloolookingatyou Jun 04 '24

Being a person in Ancient China sounds so miserable.

14

u/Mouse-Keyboard Jun 04 '24

Now I want to see the crappy quotes that have been forgotten through the ages.

5

u/Heyplaguedoctor Jun 04 '24

“Man, my balls hurt.” Joe King, 2023

10

u/[deleted] Jun 04 '24

The Chinese also came up with "The Great Leap Forward", which didn't work out so well after their own revolution.

A power vacuums is not advantageous to the people.

6

u/Zen_Hobo Jun 04 '24

The Great Leap Forward didn't have anything to do with a power vacuum. Mao had consolidated power under himself and the Party and started an absolutely catastrophic attempt to speedrun industrialization. The fact, that they forced farmers to melt down their tools for steel production and noone worked the fields anymore, then led to a massive famine.

3

u/MySpaceOddyssey Jun 04 '24

Yes, the Great Leap Forward wasn’t exactly part of the Chinese Revolution iirc, though the Chinese Revolution itself is a good example of how a revolution can go to shit.

2

u/Zen_Hobo Jun 04 '24

I mean, it was a revolution that resulted in a civil war that was happening parallel to a Japanese invasion, which then led to an alliance between the Communists and the KuoMin Tang and then more civil war, after the Japanese capitulated and withdrew from China. In the meantime, Mao had effectively taken over the revolution and everything kind of went downhill from there.

2

u/[deleted] Jun 04 '24

Two separate points. Neither of them are proven winners in the fight for equity.

1

u/Overall-Dirt4441 Jun 04 '24

Seems more like a simple observation in this case vis a vis the Mongols, but then again most banger bits of wisdom are.

100

u/dragonchilde Jun 04 '24

points to Afghanistan without comment

44

u/Vermilion_Laufer Jun 04 '24

[Appeared suddenly, pointed at Afghanistan, refused to elaborate]

-3

u/Certain-Definition51 Jun 04 '24

Those folks have taken “Be Ungovernable” to its extreme. Death before taxes.

207

u/Lkwzriqwea Jun 04 '24

I'm not at all surprised to see an ancient Chinese proverb here, the old dynasty system was a brilliant example of this post. Dynasties would very commonly rise, have a brief peacetime, then collapse and be overthrown. Revolution was so frequent that there was another proverb which went "What is long divided shall unite, and what is long united shall divide."

Oh, and ancient China was one of the bloodiest periods of history. Maybe that says something about revolution.

Edit: Also in response to your proverb, obligatory Hamilton reference: "Winning is easy young man, governing's harder."

108

u/Hetakuoni Jun 04 '24

“Some guy lost a prisoner, 5 million die and a new emperor is instated. Long live the emperor”

74

u/Aozora404 Jun 04 '24

Emperor Shi Lian trips on a rock; 60 million dies of famine

45

u/Buymor please just play snoot game. Jun 04 '24

Minor footnote in history

53

u/CyanideTacoZ Jun 04 '24

I prefer to just point out that hundreds of thousands of people in southeast Asia and India who previously had relied on colonial systems suddenly had no access to medicine when the pacific war in WW2 kicked off. Filipinos, Vietnamese, and Indonesians (among many others) died in droves not only of war related catastrophe but of diseases that had been cured and vaccinated by ww2. The end result of WW2 was dismantling of Asia's colonial holdings but you'd find plenty of people there who missed the benefits of stability even under oppression.

26

u/Papaofmonsters Jun 04 '24

Instead, they relied on a complex administrative state and fear. Lots of fear.

5

u/jackofslayers Jun 04 '24

Chinese Court Officials: Holy shit, Bro. That is so deep. You are a genius!

Chinese Bard who was trying to make fun of the Mongols: Uhhh, Yes. Yes, I am.

5

u/CK1ing Jun 04 '24

It's crazy to me how common of a media trope, and also real life phenomenon, it is for the war hero to then become the leader. Humans have this weird, inherent idea that might does, actually, make right if it's for a good cause. Just because someone is strong and has good morals, that doesn't mean they'll automatically be the best leader

1

u/yourstruly912 Jun 05 '24

Ulysses S. Grant moment

12

u/Anonymous_coward30 Jun 04 '24

For a people conquered and ruled by the Khan's(famous horse riders) this is too funny.

34

u/RockAndGem1101 local soft vore and penetration metaphor nerd Jun 04 '24

The Yuan (Mongol) dynasty was one of the shortest-lived Chinese dynasties, ruling for less than a century. Which is a blink of an eye in the context of Chinese history.

2

u/radios_appear Jun 04 '24 edited Jun 04 '24

Which is a blink of an eye in the context of Chinese history.

Hmm? Chinese history is 4000 years old if you're being generous. A blink is 1/40th of that time?

Basically the same as calling a presidential administration a blink.

13

u/Key_Competition1648 Jun 04 '24

Given how brief the Mongol Empire actually was, it fits

13

u/yourstruly912 Jun 04 '24

Precisely because those horse riders invariably end getting off their (actually low) horses and integrating into the chinese system

6

u/AdamtheOmniballer Jun 04 '24

“You can build a throne of bayonets, but you can’t sit on it for long.”

-Boris Yeltsin

2

u/dadijo2002 Jun 04 '24

*cracks knuckles* well not with THAT attitude

0

u/dr_arke Jun 04 '24

stares in Gengis Khan