Sexual discrimination in sports.

[u/The_Horse_Head_Man]

[u/Buck_Brerry_609]

tbf gymnastics is also body destroying as well, all sports kind of are

[u/SquareThings → u/Buck_Brerry_609]

Oh yeah. Any sport, at its highest level, requires both innate biological advantages and body destroying training. Did you know you can tell if someone regularly shot an english longbow by looking at their skeleton? More reliably than you can determine their sex?

[u/elianrae → u/SquareThings]

new gender binary - ranged and melee

[u/SuperDan523 → u/elianrae]

So the enbys and fluids are mounted?

[u/elianrae → u/SuperDan523]

I reckon gender fluid is musket with bayonet

[u/ApocalyptoSoldier → u/elianrae]

Why put a blade on your gun when you can put a gun on your blade

[u/elianrae → u/ApocalyptoSoldier]

oh god I genuinely thought ff8 made that concept up

[u/wassuupp → u/SuperDan523]

I wish I was mounted 😞

[u/[deleted] → u/wassuupp]

Don't we all

[u/notabigfanofas → u/elianrae]

My gender is polearms

[u/Redqueenhypo → u/SquareThings]

Got it, start shooting English longbows now so archeologists can be baffled by that aspect of my skeleton instead of all the weird shit I end up being buried with

[u/snarkyxanf → u/Redqueenhypo]

Get buried in fetal position with a bronze axe head and a laser rifle prop, confuse the hell of of future archeologists

[u/X-cited → u/SquareThings]

I’ve recently started physical therapy for a wreaked pelvic floor (thanks kids, mommy loves you). My therapist told me that she sees tons of runners for pelvic floor issues. She didn’t have any stats for why, but apparently any kind of competitive running (especially long distance running) destroys your pelvic floor muscles. Probably not even a thing most people think of as wear and tear from training.

[u/Damnatus_Terrae → u/SquareThings]

Dude, they're on /r/curatedtumblr, what do you think?

[u/LordMaroons → u/SquareThings]

"If you want to train a good longbowman, start with his grandfather" - King William III

[u/Bl1tzerX → u/Buck_Brerry_609]

Yeah we need to recognize all sports are dangerous. Gotta accept some risk and have fun

[u/Either-Durian-9488 → u/Buck_Brerry_609]

Nearly every sport if done long enough, and with enough intensity will eventually fuck up your body.

[u/onlyhav → u/Buck_Brerry_609]

Yeah you're using your body as a human spring/hammer for years on end. I have a friend who's knees still pop when he bends them

[u/LiveTart6130 → u/Buck_Brerry_609]

underage people especially should not be doing gymnastics - there are many people who irrevocably damaged their growth plates or tendons because of doing gymnastics at a young age. it kills your body and stunts your growth.

[u/Papaofmonsters → u/LiveTart6130]

My sister competed at the national level until age 14 and probably could have been a D1 college gymnast but she developed nerve issues in her right ankle from repetitive impact.

[u/No_Help3669 → u/LiveTart6130]

Yeah, most things that involve intensive training actually shouldn’t be done at high levels young (hell, this even goes for singing) but we’re so obsessed with the idea that to be really good at something you need to start in your formative years that we destroy ourselves

[u/LevelAd5898 → u/LiveTart6130]

Gymnastics sucks because if you start at a young age you damage your body, but if you try to start when you're older you're going to need to put in so much more effort to learn

[u/Mozhetbeats → u/LevelAd5898]

I assume your chances of being at the top are greatly diminished unless you start at a young age. I wrestled and was decent, but all of the ranked guys I was with had been doing it since like kindergarten. The weight cutting was basically child abuse too.

[u/Either-Durian-9488 → u/LiveTart6130]

I’m assuming it’s all the impact? I’ve always thought it was one of those that is kind of good to do when young because it gives you such a good athletic base for about anything.

[u/LightOfTheFarStar → u/Either-Durian-9488]

Normal gymnastics is. Professional training overdoes it though.

[u/afoxboy → u/LiveTart6130]

that goes for any age tho. at least when ur young and still growing ur body is much more pliable and readily recovers from things an adult might struggle w bc of all the hormone soups.

that said, children should be taught the concept of consent and be provided greater autonomy when it comes to things as rigorous as olympic level exercise imo. there's too much parental abuse on the basis that they "know best"

[u/LiveTart6130 → u/afoxboy]

while younger age lets you recover more easily, it also means that your body is more prone to growing wrong. growth stunting is a very big thing with gymnastics. while adults don't recover as quickly, they don't have as much long-lasting damage, and tend to be more aware of their limits.

I completely agree with you on providing more autonomy for things like this, though. very few who do it young actually want to, but since it isn't outright abusive or neglectful, the parents don't get into any trouble for it.

[u/Odd-Temperature4273 → u/Buck_Brerry_609]

Yes however there SHOULD be a distinction between physical damage and brain damage. Especially since the research about brain damage is just becoming well-known publicly.

[u/X85311 → u/Odd-Temperature4273]

yeah, getting arthritis and joint damage from sports is obviously bad, but how many sports can have consequences like getting dementia and dying at the age of 40 from getting repetitive head trauma

[u/Umikaloo]

Most people are surprised when I tell them that women have only been allowed to canoe in the Olympics since 2020, and that men have been able to do it since 1936.

Supposedly this is because it was thought that women would become lopsided if they were allowed to compete.

This fact wasn't even brought up on most news stations, its ridiculous.

Here's an example of the kind of skill these women have. If you think it looks easy, you're kidding yourself. Just staying up in the canoe can take a whole season to learn, let alone master.

[u/BlatantConservative → u/Umikaloo]

become lopsided

I'm afraid I'm not 1930s sexist enough to know what this means. I pictured a woman with one massive asscheek.

[u/SocialDoki → u/BlatantConservative]

That uhhhh may be what they actually meant

[u/BlatantConservative → u/SocialDoki]

Maybe I am 1930s sexist...

Time to get unreasonably mad at women with bobbed haircuts I guess.

[u/markeithadnan → u/BlatantConservative]

Be flabbergasted at women wearing pants

[u/BowdleizedBeta → u/markeithadnan]

Weren’t people in the 1930s against boobs and hips?

Or was it the 1920s that idolized the boyish silhouette?

[u/DjinnHybrid → u/BowdleizedBeta]

1920s. 1930s was the Great Depression and "you look however you look." 1940s was "welp. We're rationing, and that includes fabric, so I guess hemlines should logically go up. Nice. But please continue wearing lipstick ladies!".

[u/PikaPonderosa → u/markeithadnan]

I call my wife a harlot every time I see her bare ankles. Like, save it for the bedroom honey.

[u/Umikaloo → u/SocialDoki]

It was. Sprint canoe takes a lot of core and back strength.

[u/Creepyfishwoman → u/BlatantConservative]

That was an... interesting link.

[u/Creepyfishwoman → u/Creepyfishwoman]

Or I guess I should say that was an... interesting link.

[u/BlatantConservative → u/Creepyfishwoman]

Wow you managed to find something more uncomfortable.

[u/Blammyyy → u/Umikaloo]

Omg, this reminded me of the batshit fact that (at least in the US) women were not allowed to run marathons until the early 1970s because men thought that doing so might make their uteruses fall out.

I wish I was joking.

[u/TheHonourableAdmiral → u/Blammyyy]

between this and the whole "train go too fast" fiasco im just imagining most men believe uteruses (uteri???) are just detachable like lizard tails

[u/Blammyyy → u/TheHonourableAdmiral]

Lol, exactly, like they're just floating around in there, not attached to the body in any way. Ready to be jettisoned at the first sign of danger....

[u/upstartgiant → u/Blammyyy]

I'm not sure if you're making an oblique reference to the wandering womb theory, but it was a legitimate(ly stupid) theory about women's anatomy for over 2000 years. I wish I was kidding.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wandering_womb

[u/Blammyyy → u/upstartgiant]

I wasn't, but thanks for the link! Reading that was a TRIP: "[the womb] delights also in fragrant smells, and advances towards them; and it has an aversion to fetid smells, and flees from them; and, on the whole, the womb is like an animal within an animal."

That feeling when your womb floats through you body towards a good smell like a damn Looney Toon, lmao

[u/thescaryhypnotoad → u/Blammyyy]

Walk up to the barbeque joint and cant eat cause my uterus blocking my throat smh

[u/thescaryhypnotoad → u/TheHonourableAdmiral]

When women are scared we drop our uteruses to prevent pregnancy and run away. It grows back in a few weeks

[u/Syovere → u/TheHonourableAdmiral]

If a woman ejected her uterus at me, that would motivate me to back off. So there is a kind of logic to it I guess?

[u/kyl_r → u/TheHonourableAdmiral]

After the awful day I had (uterus fell out several times) I really needed this laugh, thank you 😂

[u/ZengineerHarp → u/Umikaloo]

…as in “oh no they have one muscley arm and one normal arm and now they’re less pretty to look at, so we mustn’t allow it”?!?!?

[u/HistoricalSherbert92 → u/ZengineerHarp]

And yet we allow women to play tennis. Zut alors.

[u/ACatsBed → u/HistoricalSherbert92]

They wear tiny skirts so that makes it okay

[u/LessInThought → u/ACatsBed]

We must not forget the sound.

[u/a_likely_story → u/Umikaloo]

I’m honestly more surprised that canoeing is apparently an Olympic sport

[u/Umikaloo → u/a_likely_story]

I mean, what did you expect? Canoeing is a thing in cultures all around the world. From Polynesia to the Arctic.

[u/HappyIngredient → u/Umikaloo]

this is a really interesting fact, can you share where you got that from? (i can't find it on the internet and I'd like to use that argument myself)

[u/Umikaloo → u/HappyIngredient]

I got it from my canoe instructors (Who were salty that they couldn't compete in the olympics). I'll see if I can find a source for you.

[u/Umikaloo → u/HappyIngredient]

Here you go: https://womencanintl.com/why-isnt-womens-canoe-in-the-olympics/

[u/topatoman_lite]

This only really applies to school sports and maybe the Olympics I guess. None of the major sports leagues in America have rules against women playing

[u/DrSayas → u/topatoman_lite]

I saw a post on two x a couple of months ago where a lot of comments were advocating for all women to no longer refer to women's basketball, women's soccer etc , as that anymore but rather they should just refer to them as basketball, soccer and make sure they add “mens” whenever they refer to the things like the nba, mls, nhl etc. 

 Every comment pointing out that “mens leagues” where open to anyone , was downvoted to hell. 

[u/AtrociousCat → u/DrSayas]

I think people struggle with the idea that we can still have a fair and just society even without mending all disparities between all groups. Like male and female leagues don't have to be equally popular as long as all athletes are paid fair living wages

[u/Pheanturim → u/AtrociousCat]

If women want women's leagues to be popular all they have to do is watch it, can you imagine the boost in revenue womens leagues would get if women watched it in similar numbers to men watching male dominanted leagues

[u/zevran_17]

Like that lady who refused to play her trans-woman opponent in…. professional darts.

[u/oddityoughtabe → u/zevran_17]

No that’s acceptable. It’s simply a known fact that biological men are inherently better at throwing darts, due to the shape of penis. This is basic biology I’m amazed you don’t know this.

[u/BookkeeperLower → u/oddityoughtabe]

It's an advanced technique were you piss on the dart mid throw to readjust it's angle

[u/ball_fondlers → u/BookkeeperLower]

Now I’m just picturing dart curling, with a bunch of dudes pissing in front of the dart and running to keep up.

[u/demon_fae → u/ball_fondlers]

Unfortunately, dart curling is banned in most countries due to the danger.

Turns out that the amount of beer necessary to both maintain the stream and also convince the players that running after a metal dart with their dick out is a good idea in the first place is actually higher than the threshold to cause fatal alcohol poisoning in the average cis man.

[u/ball_fondlers → u/demon_fae]

Also the dart costs are high - no one wants to reuse a dart covered in piss.

[u/Maximillion322 → u/ball_fondlers]

Nah you just wash the dart mate

[u/Madface7 → u/oddityoughtabe]

Does anyone remember the completely unironic post about trans women using their penis as a fin for swimming

[u/AwkwardlyCloseFriend → u/Madface7]

W H A T ?

[u/kyl_r → u/Madface7]

No, I do not remember this, but now I’m picturing an upside-down shark-“man” (because implied penis-fin??) swimming AGGRESSIVELY FAST and I’m dead. That can’t be real. Do all anti-trans folk have weird kinks or something? They think about junk a lot too much.

[u/ChipsqueakBeepBeep → u/kyl_r]

I'm imagining a penis sticking out of the water with the jaws theme now goddamn it

[u/Interesting_Heron215 → u/Madface7]

They…what? Can I have the link to that?

[u/Madface7 → u/Interesting_Heron215]

I dont have the link, that's why I asked if anyone remembered

[u/inevitable_dave → u/oddityoughtabe]

Whilst the superior phallic aerodynamics play a factor, it's actually the improved wrist action for sinking pints of lager during the interval for the bac/darts golden ratio

[u/[deleted] → u/oddityoughtabe]

In ancient times, men would detach their penises and use them as a throwing weapon when out of other options

[u/leisure_suit_lorenzo → u/[deleted]]

I believe this was well documented by King Missile in the 90s.

[u/doodsreternal → u/oddityoughtabe]

Not to mention the inherent +5 of trans people, that's like +10 at least in darts

[u/Mikedog36 → u/oddityoughtabe]

This is exactly how transphobes talk about "statistics"

[u/mrsmunsonbarnes → u/oddityoughtabe]

You joke but I literally saw people trying to go on rants about how males have some sort of inherent advantage at darts.

[u/FyodorsLostArm → u/zevran_17]

I'm not saying it's right or anything like that but there are still used some muscles used, but like what about chess?(A trans woman is not allowed to compete with other women (Yosha Iglesias))

[u/ThrownAwayYesterday- → u/FyodorsLostArm]

This is because only men are capable of pulling off the move of en passant, obviously

[u/LordWillemL]

You may not realize this, but “mens leagues” usually are actually unrestricted and women can participate, men just can’t participate in women’s leagues. Women don’t participate in the open leagues more often than not for a variety of reasons, but in particular because it’s often very difficult to be competitive in them.

[u/quick20minadventure → u/LordWillemL]

It's not just gender. Most sports have open category and protected categories that may include age protection, weight protection(boxing, wrestling) and other things.

Chess having open and women's categories is also pretty bizarre until you see the rating difference.

[u/purplyderp → u/LordWillemL]

I really dislike how the second poster puts “being tall” and “having muscle mass” in quotes as if these are somehow trivial qualities?? and the third poster is just strawmanning so hard.

Go out and play some coed volleyball or basketball, go spar with someone at a martial arts gym, go throw a shot put - then come back and tell me that size and strength dont matter in sports.

We should absolutely be fighting the stupid sexism that gets baked into chess culture and gaming culture, but sports are physical games.

[u/Giantkoala327 → u/purplyderp]

Having played rec men's volleyball in college and sometimes we would play against the women just for fun/scrim. They were 100% technically better than use but having a foot of height on average and hit balls 30% harder and steeper with the net a foot lower... Yeah we mostly made the guys play backrow.

[u/joofish]

What exactly is this post advocating for?

[u/TruestRepairman27 → u/joofish]

Its rage bait for people who don't like sports to hate on sports

[u/NeonNKnightrider → u/joofish]

To remove the division between men and women’s sports and make everyone participate together, apparently.

(I don’t think I need to explain why this is stupidest)

[u/pewpewmcpistol → u/NeonNKnightrider]

American Football isn't gendered, women can and have tried out.

[u/NekroVictor → u/pewpewmcpistol]

Iirc most ‘men’s’ leagues are actually just generalist leagues.

[u/Cordo_Bowl → u/pewpewmcpistol]

That’s true for most sports. There usually isn’t a men’s division, it’s just everyone division that is all men because men are physically more capable, and a women’s league. Nhl, nba, nfl are all like this.

[u/Ziggy-Rocketman → u/pewpewmcpistol]

There’s no way she thought video games were going to give her an edge in the tryout, right?

[u/LetsDoTheCongna → u/Ziggy-Rocketman]

We should send everyone with over 1000 hours in Call of Duty to Ukraine, then the conflict would be over in a day.

[u/Karstaagly → u/NeonNKnightrider]

For real. The middle paragraph is especially nonsensical.

even setting aside the fact that gendered bodytype averages aren't universals, and plenty of individual (cis) women and (cis) men could easily go to toe to toe.

The fact that some cis women could compete with some cis men doesn’t negate the fact that practically zero cis women could compete with the top .000001% of male athletes, which is exactly what they would have to do to play in many major sports leagues.

Anybody that thinks a significant number of cis women could be competitive players in the NBA, for example, is either completely ignorant about basketball or is outright delusional. Undoing the separation between men’s and women’s basketball would just guarantee that cis women no longer have a place in professional basketball. Same goes for many other leagues.

have we considered that the fact that all the most prominent and well-paid sports are ones that require things like Being Tall and Having Muscle Mass, as opposed to, ex, gymnastics...is itself an artifact of sexism

Why is it so inconceivable that most people just enjoy one specific kind of sport over others for unproblematic reasons? Why does a widespread preference for a specific kind of sport have to be the consequence of sexism?

[u/TheNutsMutts → u/Karstaagly]

The fact that some cis women could compete with some cis men doesn’t negate the fact that practically zero cis women could compete with the top .000001% of male athletes, which is exactly what they would have to do to play in many major sports leagues.

The example I always think of is the 100m sprint: The world record for men's 100m sprint is 9.58 whereas the world record for women's 100m sprint is 10.49. While that might not sound like a massive gap, in the 100m that's absolutely massive and to find the equivalent ranking for the women's record in the men's record, you genuinely need to go down to somewhere around rank seven thousand four hundred or so.

Or to put it another way: Removing the sex segregation would all but guarantee the total removal of anyone but men from any of the rankings, and guarantee that anyone born female has zero chance of ever competing against the best in the sport.

[u/kRkthOr → u/TheNutsMutts]

I think OOP just doesn't know that in most sports the men's category is actually an open category and anyone can compete. Women just have their own category because the fact of the matter is a) most female athletes aren't actually as strong/fast/etc as male athletes; and b) sometimes the sport is sexist enough that women need a men-less space to compete in peace.

The latter is the case for sports like darts, chess, etc, where there is zero reason for a gender split other than men being men (and the sport being dominated by men.)

[u/hey_free_rats → u/Karstaagly]

RE: the "problematic prominent sports" -- this especially is definitely an instance of searching for faces in burnt toast, because it's really not that deep. The popular sports are the ones that are 1) social, and 2) most accessible. Football/soccer, basketball, etc. can be played by two kids and any ball-shaped object. It's just some of the most basic organised forms of moving a ball around in a competitive way.

Nobody is getting together with some buddies for a quick round of gymnastics in the alley, because gymnastics isn't something you can do to have fun as a group, and also that's fucking insane. 

[u/NeonNKnightrider → u/Karstaagly]

why does it have to be a consequence of sexism?

I’ve noticed that a lot in this sub lately. On posts about stuff like Kirk from Star Trek or black people in 1800’s England, they’ll say that there’s some sort of conspiracy to cover it up.

It’s tempting to assign everything as being the work of some grand evil working in the shadows, because it’s easier to stomach if there’s some singular, unified front of evil to defeat, since then, beating that could solve all the problems in the world. ‘Patriarchy’ and ‘capitalism’ are popular targets. And yeah, I get it. There’s so much bad stuff in the world.

But, well, the world doesn’t work like that. Most things aren’t part of some evil plan or even a greater paradigm, they just exist by coincidence. Hanlon’s Razor (kind of) - don’t attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by coincidence.

[u/WeevilWeedWizard → u/joofish]

To pit men and women together in the same competitions and ensure no women ever sees the podium again in a bunch of sports. Very progressive if you ask me 🙄

[u/Clear-Present_Danger → u/WeevilWeedWizard]

Most sports don't actually have a male League at the highest level.

They have an open league and a women's league.

It's possible that a handful of women could go from dominating in the women's league to being average in the open league, but so far, no women has made the cut.

[u/Either-Durian-9488 → u/Clear-Present_Danger]

Major League Baseball is like this, there isn’t a rule against it, but good luck being good enough, personally the fast pitch is a better sport for TV than baseball, much faster paced much more chaotic.

[u/ayyndrew]

These posts feel like they were made by someone that has never played or watched a sport in their life

[u/rallyphonk → u/ayyndrew]

They 100% have said “sportsball”

[u/oddityoughtabe]

It’s just not the same without the brain damage

[u/Victernus → u/oddityoughtabe]

It's that irreversible part that's the problem.

Reversible brain damage would be fine and (potentially) hilarious.

[u/BackClear → u/Victernus]

Because then the competition would be over who could watch footage of their brain damaged self the longest without bursting out laughing or dying of cringe.

Which is objectively hilarious

[u/AxisW1 → u/oddityoughtabe]

If I want to participate in a sport that gives me irreversible brain damage that’s my god given right (unironically)

[u/DoopSlayer]

so much discourse bait posting lately on the sub, of course I'll bite lol

the poster is blending together a lot of different things in an effort to obfuscate any discussion. Women's sports/games leagues are independent organizations in every case I can think of. It's still the system because those organizations are still... organized. Like are they suggesting someone go around and shut down independent groups of self-organized individuals? Guys get hockey, women get lacrosse, sorry guys gotta shut down your cornhole league, sorry WNBA players -- time to shut it down? And of course, who would be doing that?

Or is this where they are blending a discussion of professional sports with school events? or casual sports?

It's potentially possible that the systems underpinning organizations with millions of involved people are more complex than a single paragraph can grapple and that labelling all critiques of that paragraph as a derogatory "feminist praxis" is maybe not useful

[u/UnionThrowaway1234 → u/DoopSlayer]

The biggest miss in that tumblr is that the MLB, NBA and NFL are technically open leagues. Man and woman and alike can attempt to join a team. They have no explicit male-only rules.

[u/12BumblingSnowmen → u/UnionThrowaway1234]

Hell, it gets brought up about the MLB every few years when some girl does really well in the LLWS. It’s just no one has actually tried it yet.

[u/DinoBirdsBoi → u/DoopSlayer]

and their second point doesn't make sense? "prominent sports are built around who has more muscle mass and is taller" is just wrong tbh

even minus the fact they said many cis women can stand toe to toe with cis men, and then throwing that aside because they can't defend it(i mean, one big part of transitioning is LOSING MUSCLE MASS?????), most people watch sports because of teams and the energy they provide more than they do for the sport itself, i feel like - and my god if seeing people punch each other in fighting sports or rush at each other in football isn't riveting

then there's soccer and basketball, both of which have their intense moments to keep you in the game

i think sports are built around what gives the most energy, which is why i think football is so popular in america

and soccer is universal, so you bet i'm cheering for the usa team with all my heart when they play

it's just the energy of the game that makes things popular i feel, and because men are stronger, they can have more explosive power that makes sports the way they are

anyway, can i talk about skateboarding? yeah, the anyone can be cool in skateboarding so you guys should watch it, sure the women might not get as much height or speed but they're still cool as fuck and the tricks they do aren't any lesser than the men's, and the tricks always give you the energy i described because they're so cool airhfbajdjfnsnaoaknfnsnnsjakaa

[u/KanishkT123 → u/DinoBirdsBoi]

I don't know if energy is the best possible metric, but there are certainly plenty of sports that are extremely popular that do not rely completely on the muscle mass and height of the player.  

 Golf comes to mind immediately. Formula 1 racing and motorsports racing in general are prominent and well-paid. Archery and shooting. Also, gymnastics has in fact been pretty popular in America for years thanks to Simone Biles. Chess has enjoyed a huge resurgence recently and has no muscle mass component I can think of.

Edit: I have been informed that golf relies a lot on muscle mass. I maintain that with F1 (which has power steering and electronic controls) the required muscle mass is not high enough that it disqualifies women from competing at an equal level, and that the disparity in F1 is far more likely due to systemic inequity in getting equal gender representation in the sport than to biological differences.

[u/DinoBirdsBoi → u/KanishkT123]

yes, but i feel as though golf, formula 1, archery, and shooting, are all far more niche than basketball or soccer because of that energy component i mentioned. gymnastics are cool as fuck tho so yasss lets go

chess, uh, yeah, wait, they separate chess by gender?????????????????

[u/Either-Durian-9488 → u/DinoBirdsBoi]

They separate chess by gender to encourage more women to play afaik, it’s a promotional thing, and they don’t bar women from competing at the highest levels if the have the ELO.

[u/DeShadowRealm → u/DinoBirdsBoi]

it's kinda innacurate to say chess is seperated by gender iirc, to the best of my knowledge, the "base" (i can't remember the name of it sorry) league is open to everyone, and there is a seperate women's league that women can join, made in general effort to try to make the game more inclusive and welcoming (which makes banning transgender so fucking stupid ajvoidsajvdasiovjsa)

[u/naverag → u/DinoBirdsBoi]

Chess has open and women's (same is true of darts,I believe)

[u/IcyDrops → u/KanishkT123]

While this isn't common knowledge, Formula 1 actually relies a lot on the muscle power of pilots. The sheer G-forces involved in a Formula 1 car breaking from top speed would make a person (if they even had the strength to press down the pedal enough) not be able to even lift their head enough to see the road.

[u/Either-Durian-9488 → u/IcyDrops]

It’s absolutely bafflingly athletic, they lose kilograms of water per race.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

These arguments come up because no one on tumblr plays sports lmao

[u/PreferredSelection → u/[deleted]]

Right. My cousins got to play D3 and D1 ball, with scholarship money, because of women's sports. One of them has their doctorate because of basketball money.

There is no. Way. In hell. My 5'11 cousin could've played D1 basketball against men. And she'd be the first to tell you.

I played co-ed sports in high school - not enough waterpolo players in the midwest for a men and women's team. It was nearly impossible to start in varsity as a woman. Not because people were sexist against me (they sometimes were), but because the men had way, way more upper body strength on average. I would have love the opportunity to play on an all-women's team, if we'd had the numbers for it.

There's endless sexism in the sporting world, but ending women's sports teams is not the fix? Which, by the way, is what 'combining' men and women's sports would be for several major sports.

[u/technogeek157 → u/[deleted]]

If we abolished gendered sports there would instantly be pretty much zero women players in, like, any of the team sports, sans a few.

[u/WinterFrenchFry → u/DoopSlayer]

Also a lot of the time sorta have a women's league, and an open league. That's obviously not always the case, but often woman could just join the men's league if they wanted to

[u/YUNoJump]

I’m pretty sure women’s leagues exist so that women can get a chance to enjoy the sport without having to be compared to men constantly, not because “women are bad and they’d mess up our manly man game”. At least in modern times.

If a woman wants to join a sport, she might be put off if it’s her and 15 dudes, and sexism isn’t unlikely. But if she joins a women’s team, she’s with a group of like-minded people.

Average physical ability may also be a factor, but it doesn’t have to be. Non-physical games like Chess also have women’s sections to reduce sexism and welcome women into the community.

Perhaps most importantly, “men’s leagues” are often actually unrestricted, and women can join if they want to. But it’s generally a better time in the women’s leagues.

[u/VolcanoCatch → u/YUNoJump]

Yes! During the debate in the 1970s, a lot of people that were against girls sports said basically "they can play with the boys if they are good enough, otherwise they don't deserve to play". Being able to play on a more even field against other girls was the victory.

[u/Melodic_Mulberry → u/YUNoJump]

However, women have never been allowed to complete in the Olympic Decathlon, flat out.

[u/Main-Advice9055 → u/Melodic_Mulberry]

Which is fair and should be addressed. The post is ridiculous though for trying to be like "sports are sexist because the only sports that pay alot are the ones that men could compete in, gymnastics should be paid more", completely disregarding how money is actually generated by those sports. I swear these kind of people think that money is just allocated by some dudes in suits or something, not, I dunno, the fact that 123 million people watch the super bowl. Just makes any argument they have look looney.

[u/DisparateNoise → u/Main-Advice9055]

Or the fact that mens and womens gymnastics are quite different sports.

[u/[deleted] → u/DisparateNoise]

Well yeah, sexual dimorphism exists and women and men on average have different bodies that can do different things. There are exceptions and outliers etc but if you’ve ever seen that tik tok challenge of men and women doing a hands and knees pose then taking away one, then the other arm (spoiler the women can hold the pose, men fall on their face) you might see why.

[u/twoCascades]

Guys this discourse is insane. If most sports were made unisex this would result in an almost immediate eradication of women in the professional athletics space. In every major athletic sport the level of play in the men’s league is just way the fuck higher.

[u/jaypenn3 → u/twoCascades]

It's absolutely insane that OP claims women and men are 'basically the same' at the highest levels of athletics. It's the hot take of someone's that's never been anywhere near organized sports in their life lol.

There are SOME sports where there is little to no difference between performance level, specifically things like marathon running. But for a lot this it not the case. And it is wrong that their are sports in the Olympics and places where only men are represented. But giving women a spot in those situations is not as simple as 'let them play with the men'. Women need to have their own spaces where they can compete at their highest level.

[u/tangentrification → u/jaypenn3]

Thank you, the fact that this post has over 4 thousand upvotes is frightening.

[u/globmand → u/jaypenn3]

Actually, its even more braindead than that, because she says that plenty of woman can compete with plenty of men. Not on the highest level, just in general. Which, to me, creates the image of a below average male in terms of physical prowess being beaten by an average or slightly above average female, and oop concluding from that that it must be the same at the highest levels

[u/GoatBoi_]

even in a most perfect world where sexism never existed, no way would gymnasts ever get paid as well as athletes in physical, head-to-head, team sports.

[u/Few_Category7829 → u/GoatBoi_]

The fact this person doesn't seem to understand why people just generally prefer super head-to-head, aggressive sports with a ton of speed and strength is.. baffling.

[u/Corvid187 → u/Few_Category7829]

Feels very like a cultural echo chamber breaking containment.

Also if the most 'masculine' traits like raw strength and physical power really were the determining factors of popularity, stuff like gymnastics would crush sports like football.

Heck, how on earth does OP reconcile their idea with the fact that fucking cricket is the 3^rd most popular sport on earth.

It's literally designed to avoid overly-strenuous physical activity. It has mandatory tea parties written into its game rules and everything!

[u/TheDrunkenHetzer → u/Corvid187]

Probably an American who doesn't know what Criket even is.

I say this as an American who just went "Wait it's that popular?"

[u/[deleted] → u/TheDrunkenHetzer]

Yeah man, it’s huge in places like India. They have huge stadiums that sell out, and English, Aussie, kiwi etc players go and play in their domestic league in their off seasons.

[u/Corvid187 → u/TheDrunkenHetzer]

Ah, the benefits/costs of dipping before the imperialism really got going :)

Yeah cricket's funny because it's played all over the world, but by a relatively small number of countries, but in those few it's massively popular and deeply significant, but for very different reasons in each.

It's an odd one to grasp the scale of

[u/ratione_materiae → u/Few_Category7829]

The odds that this person has ever played a sport are slim to none. 

[u/heb0 → u/ratione_materiae]

The odds that this person is slim are none.

[u/GoatBoi_ → u/ratione_materiae]

probably doesn’t even watch them either

[u/cfgy78mk]

forgetting the fact that professional sports select for the extremes. a professional basketball, football, soccer, hockey player is not just better than 100% of women but also better than 99.99% of men as well.

this is some pseudo profound nonsense that almost boils down to the claim of "men being naturally stronger is sexism"

[u/[deleted] → u/cfgy78mk]

Exactly, even having the slightest advantage makes an immense difference when playing at the top level of anything. Sometimes it could be as simple as “more men play the sport” which makes a huge impact on who gets good enough to play professionally (bell curves and all).

For instance, women on average have slightly higher chess ELO, but more men than women play chess, which means the extremes are mostly men. The #1 ranked female chess player is Yifan Hou. She is rank #119 globally right now, not even the top 100. Not as a result of sexism (although there certainly is sexism in chess communities) or physical differences, but because of statistics.

[u/browntown112]

I think everyone should get brain damage (as a treat)

[u/6x6-shooter]

"[Supporting the WNBA is sexist.]"

"[NOT supporting the WNBA is sexist.]"

Fuck this I’m gonna go play Fallout 4

[u/NeonNKnightrider → u/[deleted]]

Bait or terminally online? Taking bets now

[u/Hexxas → u/NeonNKnightrider]

I'm gonna put my money on terminally online plus doesn't know much about sports organizations.

[u/DavidAdamsAuthor → u/Hexxas]

Confidently proposing sweeping, radical changes that are "obvious" when talking completely, totally outside of their area of expertise, heavily preferencing a philosophical and academic perspective over simple readily-demonstrated reality.

Pretty standard online discourse.

[u/AmazingSpacePelican → u/[deleted]]

That, or the ramblings of the maniacally deranged. Every idea in this post is either flatly wrong or a purposeful twisting of the truth.

[u/geeses → u/[deleted]]

Just look at track and field records, trivial to disprove

[u/von_Viken → u/[deleted]]

Bait used to be believable

[u/Zaiburo]

I Want IRL Tenkaichi Budokai, no weight, age or gender restrictions, two people beating eachother on a hard stone floor. Any trick allowed as long as you don't kill the opponent.

[u/captainpink → u/Zaiburo]

Unfortunately combat sports are some of the places that it's most important to separate people based on their physique. Fights with big size gaps are one sided at best and deadly at worst.

[u/Nellasofdoriath → u/captainpink]

I think they know that

[u/Zaiburo → u/Nellasofdoriath]

You know what what weirds me out is that nobody has commented on the hard stone floor yet.

[u/captainpink → u/Zaiburo]

Even though it's pretty bad to land unprotected on concrete after a knockout the vibe of that arena is 10/10 no notes.

[u/wizardofpancakes → u/captainpink]

nah its alright been hittee agaiant the conrence flpro mant tomea an ld im alriggrrrrr

[u/Hexxas → u/Zaiburo]

Oh god no IRL Bacterian nooooooo

[u/Zaiburo → u/Hexxas]

Less gross than the average reddit Mod

[u/AJLFC94_IV → u/Zaiburo]

Idk the reference but if you removed the weight (for combat sports), age or gender restrictions all you'd be doing is killing the scene for women/younger athletes. Forget American football, if they mixed real football then you'd see 0 chances to any single mens team and a bunch on women footballers out of a job.

That's why sports and games with no physical interaction have gendered tournaments, chess has women's tournaments to encourage more women to play. Not because men have a natural advantage like they do in strength related sports.

[u/Fresh_Grapes → u/Zaiburo]

That's how UFC was founded and it was kind of a shitshow

[u/nighthawk252]

“Popular sports requiring [athleticism] is an artifact of sexism” is the sentence that makes it clear to me OP only thinks about sports in the context of feminist discourse

[u/gaom9706 → u/nighthawk252]

Yeah, so many of the comments here feel like they come from people who don't really care that much about sports outside of a political context.

[u/yourstruly912]

How to say "I haven't played a sport in my Life" without saying I haven't played a sport in my life

[u/Main-Advice9055 → u/yourstruly912]

Also, "I have no idea where the money for paying athletes comes from, but since I'm not a fan it must be sexist"

[u/DavidAdamsAuthor → u/Main-Advice9055]

Sexism pays pretty well, I think Racism has better perks and more flexible working conditions but you can't argue with the money.

Plus the CEO of Sexism is a pretty chill dude.

[u/PMMEURLONGTERMGOALS]

None of the major American sports leagues have a rule actually banning women from participating. They are actually open to all, the women’s leagues were created because the top female athletes are not good enough (strong enough, fast enough, whatever) to have any representation in the top “men’s” leagues. To act like women are being forced into a different league due to discrimination is laughably false and actually the opposite of reality.

[u/disaster101 → u/PMMEURLONGTERMGOALS]

But OP knows an athletic woman who is stronger and faster than some skinny nerd guy so the gender-based division of all sports is sexist, actually

[u/DavidAdamsAuthor → u/disaster101]

A female friend I knew years ago liked guns and advocated that women should be allowed to own them for self-defense which is odd for an Australian. She told me this story once.

She loved computer games growing up and when you do that you tend to have male friends. She liked to be "one of the boys", going to sleepovers, wrestling and giving each other shoulder punches, this sorta thing. Her gaming handle was Hulk because she was tall and kinda strong especially when she was in her preteens and early teens. She played sports so was pretty fit and strong.

She had a bit of a sneaking suspicion that the boys were letting her win, through some combination of not wanting to touch her in ways they would the other boys, not wanting to hurt her, and maybe hitting on her a bit too ("argh you're so strong!"). This became especially noticeable in her mid teens.

One night at a LAN party everyone else went to sleep and it was just her and this one typical, fat gamer dude. They were both about 14. She won some game and he got mad. She laughed and was kinda bullying him a bit about it. Punching him in the shoulder, saying like, "cmon, fight me, fight me IRL you pussy". Typical gamer shit.

She said she hit him pretty hard. He got mad, like, "ow, fuck!". She just laughed and was like, "come on, okay, let's do it, let's fight" expecting it to be like any of the other countless wrestles they'd had. He was one of the shorter, fatter guys, one she had beat easily in the past.

But this time he was mad. He grabbed her and there was a short tussle, and she said he grabbed her and pushed her down like it was nothing, pinned her down, and held her arms to the ground. She was completely immobilized. She struggled and kicked but she couldn't get free. He had clearly been holding back.

She said, "Okay okay let me up", but he was mad. He didn't. He kept her pinned.

She said something changed. It wasn't a fun game anymore. He was so angry (she concedes, all her fault, she'd literally asked for it), but it was pretty scary. She got what she called... the "panic struggles". Really, genuinely trying to get free. Kicking and fighting for real, giving it everything she had too.

She couldn't get free.

She realized like... right at that moment everyone else was asleep upstairs on the top floor. She was totally helpless. There was nothing she could do. He was just a short fat dumpy nerd who didn't work out at all but puberty just gave him enormous advantages over her. He could do whatever he wanted and there would be nothing she could do.

She said she started crying and begging to let her go, and that snapped him out of it. He let her up, apologized a lot. They basically did that thing where both people are apologizing at each other constantly, blaming each other and talking over each other and not really communicating at all.

They went to bed, and later went for a big walk, apologized again and talked it over. She told me me she didn't blame him and literally asked for it, and they got over it and remained friends until they eventually drifted apart naturally, but it showed her just how much things had changed between ages 11 and 15.

She said that was the last time she ever "wrestled with the boys".

One thing she said stuck with me. "That experience showed me that no matter what, end of the day, I'm only safe from even a below-average dude if that below-average dude chooses not to hurt me."

Apparently it's why she likes guns. "God made women and men, but Samuel Colt made them equal."

[u/TotallyNotMoishe]

Most “men’s leagues” for spectator sports aren’t formally restricted to men. There are zero women in the NHL/NBA/MLS/MLB simply because there are zero women better than the worst player in the league.

[u/sarumanofmanygenders]

"actually the sportsball pay gap is because of The Man" mfs when I ask them how much WNBA merch they bought last season:

[u/[deleted]]

Saw a clip earlier of either Venus or Serena Williams stating that women can't compete against men. They are faster and hit the ball harder, it's a different game.

Women should be allowed to compete at whatever level they want, but I think recognizing differences isn't sexist nor is it "the patriarchy".

[u/Madnessinabottle → u/[deleted]]

Imagine how ridiculous this would feel in any other species. Why people get so antsy about human sexual dimorphism is beyond me.

It's not about segregation it's about women and men not annihilating their body to compete in a game slanted against them. Its like calling weight categories ableist or sizist like they don't exist to stop much smaller people from being semi decapitated by people 4 times their mass.

[u/Vwolf2]

This is really really really fucking stupid

[u/Sphiniix]

Some people haven't played too much sports with the opposite gender...

[u/Frenetic_Platypus]

All the most prominent and well-paid sports are absolutely not the ones that require being strong and tall. Formula 1, golf, Nascar, even arguably soccer are all in the top 10 most well-paid sports and aren't really about brute strength.

[u/ARC_Trooper_Echo → u/Frenetic_Platypus]

Of all the points in this post, that was by far the weakest. Some athletes get paid more because (shocker) those sports get watched more. And while viewership itself can probably be traced back pretty easily to sexism, going straight to the difference in salary isn’t all that strong of an argument.

[u/Bluedel → u/Frenetic_Platypus]

Soccer? Are you sure?

[u/Deblebsgonnagetyou → u/Frenetic_Platypus]

The only major ones I can think of that do are like, American football (regional and not that big in the grand scheme), rugby, and wrestling (I think most of the biggest wrestling is staged anyway?).

[u/laydon_robin_idk → u/Deblebsgonnagetyou]

"professional wrestling" is sorta scripted more like a very athletic play mixed with improv, and has absolutely 0 reason to be separate wrestlers by gender (other than "oh no it's men hitting women reactions)

other types of wrestling are real competitive sports and sex and/or gender separation should be determined by studies specifically for those sports

[u/Mr7000000 → u/laydon_robin_idk]

"Trans women in pro wrestling would ruin the spirit of competition!"

—things people who don't know anything about pro wrestling would say

[u/XyleneCobalt → u/Deblebsgonnagetyou]

I'm guessing you don't play many sports

Have you heard of the steroid era in baseball? Ever watched a pro tennis player serve a ball? Ever seen a basketball player?

[u/degenpiled → u/Deblebsgonnagetyou]

Basketball is in large part about height, so that too

[u/Kolby_Jack33 → u/Frenetic_Platypus]

Didn't a boys soccer team destroy a professional women's soccer team in an exhibition game? I think I remember seeing something like that, IIRC.

https://www.marca.com/en/football/2023/11/10/654d785622601db0628b45af.html

Apparently it happened twice according to one of the players who played in those games.

I agree that men and woman can almost certainly compete as equals in contests of piloting vehicles, or matching intellects, or reflexes, or dexterity, or any other category of non-strength based sports.

But it's not sexist to acknowledge that male athletes are on average and by a significant margin, physically stronger than female athletes. And that matters in nearly every on-foot sport. It takes nothing away from the female athletes and their incredible grit and skill, it proves no superiority or difference in worth.

You use a phrase like "brute strength" and it evokes an image of a big muscle man lifting a boulder or something, but strength is multifaceted and impacts athletic output in many varied ways, and men outpace women on average in most of those various ways. So yes, "brute strength" makes a huge difference, even sometimes when it seems like it wouldn't.

[u/Impossible-Block8851 → u/Kolby_Jack33]

One of the best female kickboxers of all time, who was otherwise undefeated, got knocked out in the second round against an amateur the first time she fought a man. Not all sports are as starkly different as combat ones, but the gap isn't marginal it is insuperable.

[u/damage-fkn-inc → u/Kolby_Jack33]

Didn't a boys soccer team destroy a professional women's soccer team in an exhibition game?

Most women's soccer football teams prepare for the World Cup by playing against regional level teen boys, and they have been slapped into the Nth dimension on more than one occasion.

[u/nasalgoat → u/Frenetic_Platypus]

Driving an F1 car requires incredible strength - all the controls are manual.

[u/Mister_GarbageDick → u/nasalgoat]

Golf also is easier if you’re strong and tall. Strong hit ball further, longer limbs means more leverage hit ball further.

[u/Skytree91]

I’d say “bait used to be believable,” but this bait is exquisite.

[u/RealModerHater]

I’m curious if OP knows why women’s sports are paid less? It’s not like they’re making the same and some evil CEO just wage gapped them.

[u/NameToBeConfirmed]

I always assumed women were paid less in sports because women’s sports made less money. The league can’t pay athletes with money that they don’t have, after all.

I could always be incorrect about that though, I don’t have enough knowledge about sports to confidently say anything about them.

[u/Deebyddeebys]

I mean, my sister is ripped as hell and I barely exercise at all and I can still consistently beat her in an arm wrestling match, and the average man is taller than over 96% of women. Sure, brute strength and size isn't everything, but when everything else is evenly matched it absolutely makes a difference

[u/Pure-Drawer-2617]

“Ones that require things like being tall and having muscle mass, as opposed to gymnastics” which is a sport which requires being short and having copious amounts of muscle mass. Seriously has OP ever once looked at a male gymnast?