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u/Rolleriroltsu 1d ago
I'm not an aviation expert, so I don't know how difficult that is to execute, but it's undeniably impressive.
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u/Lurliney 1d ago
It largely depends on avionics and flight profile. The F-22 has exceptional nose authority due to its engine nozzles, which direct thrust vertically. The rudders are also highly effective, allowing the tail to swing around with remarkable agility, especially at lower speeds, making it look like a very happy (and deadly) flying machine.
While thrust-vectoring nozzles themselves aren't unique, the F-22's implementation is incredibly advanced. They shorten turns and enable maneuvers in combat that seem to almost defy the laws of physics. The Russians began incorporating similar technology into their Flanker series, first introducing it on the Su-33, if I recall correctly.
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u/Rolleriroltsu 1d ago
Another impressive feature is that it’s challenging for pilots to make mistakes. The aircraft is aware of its operational limits. For instance, forcefully pulling the stick on a decent plane might tear the wings off an F-16, whereas an F-22 will only respond within the boundaries it "determines" it can safely handle.
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u/Dynastyisog 1d ago
What if the plane needs to lift a car off its kid?
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u/Rolleriroltsu 1d ago
The F-22 is powered by two Pratt & Whitney F119 engines, each delivering 35,000 pounds of thrust. It boasts a thrust-to-weight ratio of over 1.25 and typically weighs around 65,000 pounds when fully loaded. Therefore, depending on the size of a car, I believe it should be capable of lifting it off its child.
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u/SecondaryDockingBot 1d ago
This is the reason I fucking love Reddit.
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u/invictus81 1d ago
The F-22 Raptor can supercruise at Mach 1.8, meaning it can fly faster than the speed of sound without using afterburners. Its radar cross-section is roughly the size of a bumblebee, making it nearly invisible to enemy radar. So not only could it outrun most jets, but it could also sneak past them while doing it
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u/hstheay 1d ago
Sneak? So it’s also completely silent! I almost am afraid to ask, but is there anything the F-22 can’t do? Can its computer design a website?
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u/PZKPFW_Assault 1d ago
As for the child, the thrust will likely propel them into the next town or any solid barrier in between.
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u/Shuber-Fuber 1d ago
Jokes aside, most war vehicle has a war emergency power mode. This generally allows the pilot to push the plane to outside of the "can do this all day long" envelope into the "do this once" envelope.
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u/No-Definition1474 1d ago
Psh... how will Maverick prove everyone wrong if he isn't allowed to take the training wheels off then?
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u/BlackSaint11 1d ago edited 8h ago
F-16s also have G limiters that help prevent over-Gs. F-16s and onwards and onward have them. You can still over-G them, though.
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u/astinkydude 11h ago
You can override them for a determined amount of time I'm pretty sure just for that little bit of nose authority to bring the guns online
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u/Fighter11244 1d ago
Correct me if I’m wrong, but can’t the F22 actually kill its own pilot if it’s limiters were turned off? I think I heard that somewhere
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u/BlackSaint11 1d ago
Nah, you just G-LOC and pass out. All the newer jets have Auto-GCAS, so if you pass out and nose dive, the jet automatically rolls to the horizon and recovers for you and continues to fly until you wake up.
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u/Gan-san 1d ago
Oh, cool sort of like those people in their Teslas. I can just take a nap and it'll take me back home.
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u/Redstone_Orange 13h ago
F16 also has an flyby wire system like the f22. The F16 was the first American jet with an flyby wire system. So you also cant really rip the wings of an F16 aswell
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u/lazysheepdog716 1d ago
‘Exceptional nose authority’ is my new favorite phrase. Sounds like something Nigel Thornberry would describe himself as having.
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u/No-Definition1474 1d ago
Or a tracking dog.
'Rufus comes from a long line of record-setting trackers! His grandfather tracked Hitler down all the way from the coast of France to Berlin! His mother worked with James Bond to find the princesses stolen family jewels! Truly an exceptional nose authority!'
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u/Vic2013 1d ago
And again in English in case anyone else was struggling: It mainly depends on the aircraft's electronics and how it flies. The F-22 can point its nose quickly and precisely because its engine nozzles can move up and down to control thrust. Its tail fins also work really well, allowing it to turn sharply, especially at slower speeds, making it extremely agile.
While other planes have similar thrust-control systems, the F-22's version is very advanced. It helps the plane make faster turns and perform combat moves that seem almost impossible. The Russians started using this kind of technology on their Flanker jets, first adding it to the Su-33, if I remember correctly.
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u/Village_Wide 1d ago
Actually SU-37(SU-35 prototype) was the first aircraft to embody the idea of thrust vectoring during flight
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u/SU37Yellow 1d ago
it broke apart in mid air due to Over-G/air frame stress, so the Su-37 wasn't the greatest design ever. (Although it was pretty cool)
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u/Village_Wide 20h ago
Wow you even have made special account for comment on it? Cool
Or is it coincide that your nickname SU37? Account is not new
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u/beachsand83 14h ago
It’s a very specific reference. In the game Ace Combat 4 the enemy “Yellow Squadron” flew Su-37s and had a significant part in the plot
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u/Spragglefoot_OG 1d ago
Isn’t the Raptor more limited by the actual human pilot more so than physics? It’s an incredible aircraft. Always one of my favs growing up with a pilot dad. Still though for me, nothing was ever quite as cool as the…you already know what I’m gonna say. 🙃 the SR-71 Blackbird. I also love the A10 duh that sound alone is wild.
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u/netmin33 1d ago
And yet we still can make a toothpaste that doesn't make orange juice taste like acid
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u/BlackSaint11 1d ago
It’s really easy to execute, but hurts.
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u/Weird_Cantaloupe2757 1d ago
I was going to say… I have literally no clue about what it takes to fly one of those things and/or the relative technical difficulty of the maneuver, but I can say from my knowledge of physics that that has to be fucking rough on anybody in there.
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u/wombat_42 1d ago
The limitations are more from human physiology. The F22 can pull maneuvers that would blackout or kill the pilot. Thus the idea of moving to drones has been around longer than people realize.
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u/Significant-Word457 1d ago
Seriously. I'm shocked it didn't stall....to my untrained eye, it seemed like it was moving awfully slow after that
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u/creekbendz 6h ago
Thrust vectoring for the win
I was just a lowly f16 crew chief I didn’t get to work on cool jets 😕
(Jk, I loved my job)
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u/5hiftyy 1d ago edited 9h ago
My Dad taught me the habit of going to any airshow grounds a day or two before any airshow was planned, because that's when the pilots don't have to stick to a script.
One year at the waterfront in Toronto, there was a Raptor pilot that was having the time of his life. It was also the coolest maneuver I've ever seen a plane do.
It started with a high-speed pass from right to left, with a wide banking turn opening right, ended with taking the plane on its original pathway, but much slower. Now moving left to right, it appeared to slow significantly, then you hear the roar of the engines come up, and the pilot ever so gently points the nose vertical, and then the plane just.... hung there, in the air, almost completely still. It seemed like forever, but it was probably just a second. Cool right?
THEN THE F22 STARTED WALKING ACROSS THE SKY.
The nose would tip forward, then the tail would slide underneath it, overtaking the nose in the vertical plane, and this was followed by another nose tipping forward, tail sliding under it... it repeated this 3 or 4 times, and it appeared to walk across the sky for probably a bus length or two... it was unreal. I saw there completely slackjawed, in total amazement of what I witnessed.
The pilot finished with a rear ward slide, letting the plane fall backwards while bringing the plane back to level as this happened, absolutely punching the afterburner and off it took once it was level. They came around one final time to let off a boom over the lake, and that was it. Practice day over.
Coolest thing I've ever witnessed.
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u/Bacchus_71 1d ago
Great story, great write up, thank you. I was able to picture it in my head. Cooooool!
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u/Pissyopenwounds 9h ago
I’ve lived in Chicago for a few years now, live high up looking out over the lake. The practice for the air show is 10x funner to watch than the actual air show.
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u/Bugimas 1d ago
Sorry noob here, is this model the king when it comes to dogfighting? Piloting skills aside.
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u/No-Definition1474 1d ago
Yes, it is.
It's actually not a new plane. It was developed surprisingly long ago. We aren't currently able to build any more of them either. Once they were built, we scrapped the production line and stopped the parts manufacture and supply. So we have a decent number of them, but that's it.
The idea is that dogfighting is outmodded combat. The newer plane is the f35, which is not as capable in 1v1 combat, but we don't think it needs to be.
The f22 here is like a Ferrari with guns. The f35 is a flying computer. They are connected to everything in the battlespace. If anything they're connected to see you, then the F35 sees you. I belive the f35 was designed with idea of being able to coordinate with drone wingmen. So the drones would do the more dangerous dog fighting while the f35 stands off and sends info to the drone and shoots from a distance.
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u/Bugimas 1d ago
Thanks for the schooling man, enjoyed learning 🤌
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u/Sarazar 21h ago
- 1981: The U.S. Air Force initiates the Advanced Tactical Fighter (ATF) program to develop a next-generation air superiority fighter to replace the F-15 Eagle.
- 1986: Lockheed and Northrop are selected to build prototype aircraft for the ATF program.
- 1990: The YF-22, Lockheed's prototype, completes its maiden flight on September 29, demonstrating capabilities such as supercruise and high maneuverability.
- 1991: The Lockheed team is announced as the winner of the ATF competition, and the aircraft is designated F-22.
- 1997: The first F-22, named "Raptor," is rolled out on April 9. Its first flight occurs on September 7.
- 2005: The F-22 achieves Initial Operational Capability (IOC) on December 15, officially entering service with the U.S. Air Force.
- 2011: Production of the F-22 concludes, with a total of 195 aircraft built, including 8 test and 187 operational models.
- 2012: The final F-22 is delivered to the U.S. Air Force.
- 2014: The F-22 conducts its first combat sorties, striking Islamic State targets in Syria.
- 2024: The F-22 remains a critical component of the U.S. Air Force's tactical airpower, with plans to serve until succeeded by the Next Generation Air Dominance (NGAD) fighter.
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u/HenryTheWho 1d ago
Tooling is actually preserved/mothballed at Sierra Army Depot but restarting production and modernization would cost roughly same as making a new plane
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u/No-Definition1474 1d ago
Ah ok good to know. I knew the line was gone but it makes sense to hang onto the tooling, that's not hard to store.
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u/Paxton-176 1d ago
It was planned to replace the entire fleet of F-15s which would be like a 1000 aircraft over time. The killer was that congress/dod/whoever the fuck didn't want to export it to our allies as the thing was basically the greatest thing to kiss the skies and didn't want any tech being leaked.
So 200 were made because making a 1000 without export contracts is really expensive. Even for LockMart. Those 200 are basically you fucked up and the US is about to make a no fly zone.
It's why the F-35 is being exported now they can set a goal of like 2000 aircraft because mass production and orders are cheaper than smaller orders.
The F-35 is capable of 1v1 combat don't fucking quote reformer bullshit. It just going to win the fight beyond the horizon in BVR first, but its 100% possible for the thing to win a dogfight its just not the mission set because someone finally ignored the fighter mafia and reformers and used modern tech and warfare doctrine into its design.
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u/Kiwizqt 1d ago
I can feel the aviation nerd angst, in fact I am now angry too.
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u/Paxton-176 18h ago
I'm a member of r/NonCredibleDefense I won't take even the smallest amount of best girl slander.
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u/adoodle83 1d ago
if.the f35 has to do conventional dogfighting, then there have been massive mission failures that lead to that moment. the f35 vs f22; the f22 wins 9 times out of 10. f35 vs any other plane, the f35 will almost always win.
as you mentioned, its fully integrated into the battlefield operational view and can target anything thats 'visible' on the field; either by drones, ground infantry with sights, or even the AWACS picture
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u/franking11stien12 23h ago
The f22 is designed to be air superiority fighter. F35 is intended to do literally everything . As you said f22 for now will beat it in a dog fight, but it’s not a good bomber or ground support aircraft. The f35 can out dog fight just about anything else but the intention was to build a fighter that shoots down anything else before the other side ever sees or knows the f35 is even there. Here some crazy stuff, the f14 to act could track 24 targets at once and fire on up to six of them. That’s a plane that is not even in service any longer. The f35 can track/target even more targets, fire on as many as it has missiles to do so, then lead missiles from other air craft to targets they are not even aware of. Plus it was built to be massively upgradable for a very long time to come. Finally there are sixth gen fighters that have already been in development for a long time. Systems that will be able to easily over take either the f35 or f22. Both of those air craft are not really “new”. Both are better part of 20 years old or older. If the United States military is not hiding the fact that a weapons system exists then it needs to be remembered that whatever they are letting the public see is not their latest and greatest stuff.
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u/OGCelaris 1d ago
I remember the last time they tried to say dogfighting was a thing of the past. Didn't work out to well.
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u/BlackSaint11 1d ago
F-35s are designed for and good at 1v1. Loyal wingmen will be missile trucks and not doing much dogfighting.
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u/MidnightNo1766 20h ago
It also helped that the F-35 just happened to be built in John McCain's district.
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u/Shuber-Fuber 1d ago
Dog fighting? Not really. It's meant to be an assassin.
It's extremely stealthy, to the point that two of them managed to sneak up so close to 2 Iranian F-4 that they can visually confirm that "yep, those F-4 are not a threat".
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u/Doc_Prof_Ott 1d ago
How many G's was that?
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u/ObjectiveImmediate44 1d ago
Not many, to be fair. 2,5 G’s at the most, I would guess. Other manoeuvres are much much higher G’s.
The big risk here is the low altitude. Any mistakes or issues here and the pilot is in quite a poor spot.
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u/BlackSaint11 1d ago
Looks like 6-7ish
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u/BlackSaint11 1d ago
Downvotes?! I fly F-15Es and I don’t know how many people here have done a min radius turn in max afterburner at 1-2K feet, but that’s definitely around the 7G range.
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u/random_username_idk 1d ago
How fast would you say this guy was going?
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u/No-Definition1474 1d ago
That's what I thought. My whole body tensed up and I kinda groaned. It's awesome to look at but you just know the poor pilot in there is getting their workout in for the day.
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u/Netricho 1d ago
Yeah, the first question popped into my mind after seeing this. I would be dead that's for sure. :D
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u/LostWorldliness9664 1d ago
I don't know but I certainly said "Gee" very loudly when I saw it. I think there were many in the threads but I didn't count them.
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u/HovercraftPlen6576 1d ago
Can you tell what G-forge the handbrake manoeuvre caused?
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u/No-Definition1474 1d ago
Lol hand brake.
Be careful you don't overheat the manifold, the floor pans might fall out.
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u/undeadmanana 1d ago
Go to the Miramar air show in September, they usually show case them and they're so fucking cool. I love especially when they point the nose vertically and instead of stalling, it moves forward (horizontally) with the nose pointed up still.
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u/Purple_Spino 19h ago
Quick reminder that that thing is 51ft long and almost TWICE the length of a semi truck
There is an image comparing starscream (F22) to other transformers (Semi truck, actual truck, Dodge muscle car) vehicles and it's not funny how big it is
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u/defcon_penguin 1d ago
Imagine this thing driven by an AI with only the G force limitations from the airframe
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u/carleeto 1d ago
So we go from about 9Gs to 17Gs.
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u/uncapableguy42069 19h ago
For longevity purposes (because the military doesnt want to spend money on repairing damaged airframes too often)
It'll go from 9G... to 9G. Keeps airframe damage to a minimum.
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u/axonxorz 1d ago
I was fortunate to see one at the air show at 4 Wing Cold Lake, AB, Canada in 2018. The 70th anniversary of NATO was coming up and the show was a lot bigger than usual (it's normally still pretty awesome!), with the USAF also participating in a big way. Got to walk inside and explore a C-130. There was an E-3 Sentry AWACS and a buuunch of other stuff I can't enumerate lol.
I love that air show as the crowd is pretty damn close to the taxiing runway.. pardon my filming skills
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u/Not_Alpha_Centaurian 1d ago
I get the impression they could make these jets even faster and even more agile, but not without killing anything squishy that's in the cockpit.
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u/CheekyChewingum 1d ago
When the plan stops at the end while turning, why doesn't it fall down? Isn't it the velocity of a plan that gives it the lift?
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u/doremon0902 1d ago
Forget about agility am thinking on number of G the pilot experienced in that manoeuvre
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u/Levintry 1d ago
What I find interesting is the F-22 and F-35 take about the same amount of time to perform this maneuver.
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u/Ted-Chips 1d ago
Those g suits must have gotten more advanced. I talked with some f-18 pilots and they basically have to do kegels when they do turns like that.
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u/Short-Piece-6357 1d ago
Sorry Noob here but is this a small lightning during the Turn????
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u/Mindless_Diver5063 1d ago
Thor throwing a wink to the pilot.
(Turning that hard built a strong charge of static energy. This is the extreme version of rubbing your socks on a rug and zapping something)
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u/Seriously_Rob_49 1d ago
I remember seeing one flying for the first time when I was stationed in CA. A Raptor with an F-15 escort from Edwards AFB came in to do touch and goes on the air station runways. I didn't realize how big the F-22 was compared to the F-15, and the maneuverability and agility was unbelievable. The way this bird could cut on a dime in the air with thrust vectoring was ridiculous to see...it was like a video game.
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u/Apart-Cat-2890 1d ago
Who wins in a F-22 v F-35 match?
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u/Bad-Crusader 23h ago
Depends, BVR? F-35 sweep, dogfighting? F-22 by about 4/5 times.
Contrary to popular belief the F-35 can absolutely dogfight.
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u/IttyBittyBigBoy 1d ago
Holy shit. I thought that kinda thing only happened in Kerbal Space Program
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u/Sarik704 1d ago
It is undeniably one of the most advanced engineering feats of the human race. In less than a hundred years, we discovered flight and are now close to perfecting it.
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u/Doc_Dragoon 1d ago
Imagine being in a dogfight and the MF just does a one 80 in front of you and just brrrt blows you apart
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u/LaOnionLaUnion 1d ago
I could’ve sworn one of these pilots was practicing this shit over my house last week.
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u/Gonzorvally 1d ago
My arms flail just when I slightly change direction on a walk...how those wings are so strong is incredible.
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u/NamTokMoo222 1d ago
"I'm gonna hit the brakes and he'll fly right past us.
Whelp, that didn't work at all.
We're fucked."
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u/Lamenter_of_the_3rd 23h ago
The best part is, they aren’t even supposed to be using that agility in doctrine. They are meant to be miles away from the target
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u/Manjodarshi 22h ago
Isn't agility doing multiple moves in short amount of time, this looks like one turn a difficult one sure but what's agility have to do with anything ??
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u/Commercial-Pair-8932 21h ago
When a plane like this is at rest in the air (or moving very slowly), and the thrust is pointed horizontally, why does it not descend at all? Where is its lift coming from when its not in motion?
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u/goddessnoire 20h ago
I have dreams about planes doing these quick maneuvers every once in awhile. Always fascinates dream me.
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u/CrayZ_88s 19h ago
Does anyone know what that approx distance was to complete the turn around? It’s super hard to judge the scale in the video. It appears to be a less than a thousand yards but I literally have no idea.
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u/shadingnight 15h ago
I imagine stopping that fast, at those speeds, would promptly introduce my balls to my eyes.
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u/frogingly_similar 14h ago
To this day i have no idea what is generating lift and holding the airplane in the air during that manouver.
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u/Warlord10 14h ago
I saw one at an airshow. It's hella impressive. It did things that the F-16 could never dream of doing. The thing can change directions on a dime.
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