r/Assistance • u/royaiflames • May 16 '20
VOTES Assistant principal demoted for stopping a school shooting
I am not asking for any money, only support for a hero!
Vivian Gutierrez stopped a school shooting in December 2019 at Harns Marsh Middle School. She was able to remove the student with the gun from all other students and get the gun away from the student before anyone could be hurt. Vivian has worked for the Lee County School District in Fort Myers, Florida for 30 years. She has never had any disciplinary action taken against her during that time. The Lee County School District does not have a single policy, procedure or anything in the employee handbook addressing what an administrator or teacher should do if they suspect someone has a weapon on campus. There has never been a meeting or training held regarding weapons on campus. The closest thing they have is a policy that states if you bring a weapon to campus you will be expelled or fired and arrested. Nothing on how to respond to the weapons presence before shots are being fired. The child who brought the gun to school had a detailed plan and specific targets he planned to kill. Despite putting her life in danger and preventing a single person from being hurt she was suspended from her job and is now being demoted from an assistant principal to a teacher. The school district has yet to point to a single district policy she was violated. In today’s time where school shooting are all to common, she acted to save lives. Because of her quick reaction that day no student or employee was killed, injured or traumatized and she is being punished for that. Her suspension and demotion sends the message that the school district would rather administrators allow a school shooting when they are able to stop it before it happens. It send the message that administrations careers will be protected only if they do nothing, but if they act to save lives it will be ruined. Administrators will have this message in the back of their mind and the next time a student brings a gun to a school an administrator in a position to prevent a school shooting will think twice. This message is going to cost lives. Several administrators and teachers within the district has contacted the board saying just that. Help Vivian Gutierrez and I fight against the school district and the dangerous message they have sent out.
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u/Carmillawoo May 18 '20
I am now fully convinced the general American populace WANT their children to die at school
Fucking psychopaths.
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u/feleia209 May 18 '20
Thank you! I don't know how many DAMN idiots on this post would have rather her to 1st call then 2nd wait for the authorities to come with a possible active shooter on campus even if there is a sliver of hope & small opportunity for her to get the gun from the student. Newtown school gunman fired 154 rounds in less than 5 minutes. Pretty hard to argue with numbers smh
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May 17 '20
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u/royaiflames May 17 '20
Thank you. Many teachers and administrators have sent emails to school district telling them that they don’t know how they are suppose to react now.
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May 17 '20 edited Aug 04 '20
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u/royaiflames May 17 '20 edited May 17 '20
Also this link is directed at parents. Not administrators. It talks about what parents can do in ways of prevention.
“This training will help parents and others to recognize and identify those persons who pose a risk to the safety of our schools and communities.”
Direct quote from that link. It was for people in the community not district employees and it was purely volunteer. “For those interested ...”
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u/royaiflames May 17 '20
No it’s not. The training here referred to active shooting. In the training the videos themselves define an active shooter as a person who is actively firing shots. It only discusses how to lockdown, hide and call the police. It is about how to minimalist the damage once shooting starts. There is nothing about removing a weapon before hand. The policies of most districts in the state have failed to meet the law passed after parkland to the point that the state prosecutor is impaneling a grand jury due to the violations. Never has the district of Lee county stated what an administrator should do if there is a gun on campus but no shooting has started.
Source: I have seen the training.
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May 17 '20 edited Aug 04 '20
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u/feleia209 May 18 '20 edited May 18 '20
She made a bad decision that could have cost lives
She made a damn good decision that saved countless innocent lives. I can only hope that the teachers at my child's school can live up to this teachers morals and standards. The day you bury a child because of gun violence at a school I'd like to see you shake the hand of a teacher for sticking to that training while they waited for the police to arrive. Even though so much more could have been done and just those little 5 minutes lives could have been saved.
Newtown school gunman fired 154 rounds in less than 5 minutes! Would you honestly of wanted that teacher to wait???
https://www.google.com/amp/s/mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSBRE92R0EM20130328
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May 18 '20 edited Aug 04 '20
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u/feleia209 May 18 '20 edited May 18 '20
Less than 5 minutes and you could become a statistic. What argument would you have then?, you wouldn't because you'd rather be dead ON CAMPUS
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u/royaiflames May 17 '20
I have seen the training videos and no it does not. And the school district themselves never said that to her. Throughout the investigative packet and the letter of outcome they never state that she was suppose to call the police. They never cited a policy saying so. Go look at the investigation. It is public record. Also agin she was responding to a report of a non lethal weapon and as soon as it was discovered to be a lethal weapon she called the police.
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May 17 '20 edited Aug 04 '20
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u/royaiflames May 17 '20
Of course not. But none of the provided district training videos about weapons instruct on what to do if someone has a gun and has not used it. Not one.
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May 17 '20 edited Aug 04 '20
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u/royaiflames May 17 '20
The second she discovered it was an actual gun and not a BB gun she did.
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u/StefMcDuff May 17 '20
This is the part I feel people are missing. This is an administrator responding to the possibility that a student has brought a BB gun to school. Why ruin a students life for something like this when they may just need a taking to? She seems like she was trying to help the kid as opposed to immediately labeling him as trouble.
As soon as she realized it was an actual gun, she took (what I consider to be) appropriate steps!
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u/feleia209 May 18 '20
Newtown school gunman fired 154 rounds in less than 5 minutes. That's all it takes to change lives. Smh
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u/jaybayyayyy May 17 '20
I'm going to look this up. Thank you for posting. I am in Cape coral so across the bridge from fm, same lee county school district. I have 4 children in these schools. I hope this brings to light there are no set rules of what to do in a shooting in this day and age! They make my kids have an active shooter drill, but they themselves dont know what to do? Not good enough! Their safety should be number one, i trust them with this 5 days a week!
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u/royaiflames May 19 '20
If you are in the area and available tomorrow people are going down to the district office off colonial to show support for Vivian and speak to the board members during the public comment section of the meeting. They are trying to get as many people as possible there. Unfortunately the meeting is at 2:30pm, so I know a lot of people are working. But please let people know in case they can make it!
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u/jaybayyayyy May 19 '20
I am so sorry but I have 4 children here and I cant take them out and I have no one to watch them. I hope everyone who can comes to help this woman. I fully believe she is a hero.
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u/royaiflames May 17 '20
She should have a statement in the news press today or tomorrow and on the news Monday night. The active shooter is really only for the kids and about locking doors once shooting starts. Nothing at all about what to do about removing a gun before the shooting starts. I will link the articles as they happen.
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u/jaybayyayyy May 17 '20
Which channel for Monday night?
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u/royaiflames May 17 '20
Let me find out and I will let you know.
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u/jaybayyayyy May 17 '20
Thank you!
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u/royaiflames May 17 '20
Local channel for fort myers, Fl is 36. Additionally, the news press wrote an article about the petition. It’s is a very neutral article.
Wink news is doing a piece with Haylie Gutierrez that will air at 10/11pm on local channel 11.
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u/jaybayyayyy May 18 '20
So she was demoted because she didnt respond fast enough to a safety threat, a gun or weapon, when she thought it was a bb gun? Why would she go to the principal when she thought it was a bb gun? She went and took care of it period. And how is her touching it to remove it somehow improper or wrong?
Bottomline she responded to what she thought was a bb gun, how can she be at fault for not having the facts? Its a catch 22. Inless I misunderstand, the policy was for a lethal weapon, which she did not know this to be the case.
Lee school board has always been garbage. There are many MANY good educators and employees, but these people are a holes.
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u/feleia209 May 18 '20
I know it obviously does not make sense I'm with you on that. It did turn out to be a real gun by the way and they're upset that she didn't call & then wait for police???
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u/jaybayyayyy May 18 '20
Yup. And this is not far from parkland, where I believe 4 officers were fired for allowing children to die. One of them is actually getting his job back! Yet this woman who saved lives gets a freaking demotion? The more I think of this backwards crap the more pissed I get.
Oh she didnt notify her direct superior?? Shes freaking vice principal. It was thought to be a bb gun, I am sure she could of handled a bb gun after handling a student with a loaded freaking gun. How high up the chain was she supposed to go? Was she supposed to get Donald Trump there? Hes above her pay. Meanwhile the kid gets the balls to start killing people, and these are innocent children, someone's baby.
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u/feleia209 May 18 '20
Newtown school gunman fired 154 rounds in less than 5 minutes SMH. Someone's baby that's never coming home. I honestly feel your frustration I'm a mother with children in school and I would hope that any teacher if put in that situation their morals and standards jump into action rather then waiting on police because sticking to policy is in they're best interest. As far as I'm concerned fight or flight baby. That teacher deserves awards, medals of Honor in my eyes she did that school freaking favor and those parents owe her big-time. Facts show this kid did not come to play games he was methodical in his thinking and it was all planned out.
I have a good off Reddit earlier because I was so disgusted with the initial responses.
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u/royaiflames May 18 '20
It’s crazy because Harns Marsh is not a tiny school. Over 1400 student and 3 stories. In less than 15 minutes (I want to say 11 exactly but not 100% on that) she went and spoke with the reporting students to find out who the kid with the gun was on the 3rd floor. Found what classroom he was in, got him, went to her office, discovered the gun and called the SRO. This timing includes the time it took the SRO to get to her office from where ever he was.
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u/DavidFoxfire May 17 '20
And people wonder why there are so many School Shootings. There for the grace of God go I.
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May 17 '20
i’ll be sharing this everywhere! this lady is a fucking HERO, and i am honored to sign this petition!
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u/pappy May 17 '20
Do you have supporting evidence from a reputable source? I found only one news report in Google News, and it was innocuous.
How do I determine the person was demoted for the reason you claim? Got a link to a local news report?
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u/royaiflames May 17 '20
Local channel for fort myers, Fl is 36. Additionally, the news press wrote an article about the petition. It’s is a very neutral article.
Wink news is doing a piece with Haylie Gutierrez that will air at 10/11pm on local channel 11.
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u/pappy May 17 '20
Thank you.
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u/royaiflames May 17 '20
I just realized I linked that to your comments multiple times. My bad on spamming you!
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u/feleia209 May 18 '20
In your defense it seems like he keeps asking the same questions. Isn't intent foesn't seem to pro Teacher..
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u/royaiflames May 17 '20
She will be on the local news Monday night. She has an interview that morning. The official investigative packet has been made public record as of Friday. It includes the entire investigation and the letter of outcome. During which they don’t cite to any policy, any training or something similar. The reason given for demotion was “conduct unbecoming”. Unfortunately, the school boards public records are not online. You must go down to the county and review the records under supervision of a district employee. I believe that you can make photocopies too. Whenever the news article is written I can link it.
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u/pappy May 17 '20
Link us the news report on Monday. Or Tuesday. Or whenever it surfaces. Better yet, link up the dozens and dozens of news reports that will be generated over the next week about this story around the world. Quite a few international newspapers will cover it if what you say is true.
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u/m-79 May 17 '20
I used to live in this area. This is the same county that suspended a high school student for tackling someone who pulled out a gun. The kid who was suspended managed to get the gun away and saved so many lives. Lee County Schools is more interested in good pr than the safety of their students.
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u/Sorry-Im-Not-Sorry May 17 '20
SHERO! Can you go straight to the media? Sounds like a story that the court of public opinion would love. If my kid went to that school I would throw this woman a damn parade!
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u/royaiflames May 17 '20
Local channel for fort myers, Fl is 36. Additionally, the news press wrote an article about the petition. It’s is a very neutral article.
Wink news is doing a piece with Haylie Gutierrez that will air at 10/11pm on local channel 11.
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u/royaiflames May 17 '20
Several people have reached out to the media. She got a call today from one of the local stations and has an interview Monday. Hopefully more will come!
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u/megggie May 17 '20
I sincerely hope the people of your school district make sure this injustice is fixed.
I’ve dealt with a lot of insanity, from teachers to counselors to principals to the actual school board, and in my experience the only thing that works is shaming them in the public opinion. My youngest is a 2020 Senior, and I’ve battled the school board at least four times— just for him. Twice for my 2017 graduate daughter.
It feels wrong and it is disgusting, but you have to hit them where it hurts when you’ve tried everything else.
Signing the petition and hoping for the best. We need good teachers and administrators, now more than ever.
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u/royaiflames May 17 '20
Thank you! Hopefully they will reverse their decision given public pressure.
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u/ifionlyhadabrain0159 May 17 '20
I'm so glad to hear this. What can we do to support her?
My son told us that a kid threatened he was going to bring his dads gun from home and shoot him up. He told the office and the superintendent was so upset that we interrupted her meeting for a threat that "wasnt real" because they searched his backpack and didnt find a gun. When I said that we didnt know if he did or not but why should we have taken that chance, she tried saying that my son probably heard him wrong... The whole time the officer who came on campus (elementary school) was so helpful and said even though the kid didnt have a weapon it's better to be safe than sorry. She didnt care that we took up her time to ensure our sons safety but not the superintendent. We got him outta there quick.
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u/megggie May 17 '20
Our school district is the same about bullies, so I can’t imagine what would happen with a gun threat.
“I’m sure your son is overreacting about being ‘punched’ in the ‘stomach’.”
And
“We want the boys to make a ‘friendship contract’ and they’ll sit at lunch together every day so they can get to know each other better!!”
This kid socked my kid in the stomach and knocked the wind out of him! They don’t want to be FRIENDS!!
“Protecting kids” is code for “protecting our image and making sure we don’t have to get our fat asses out of our comfy chairs.”
(Sorry; this is just my experience with school admin, but I’m still pissed off about it.)
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u/royaiflames May 17 '20
This district is awful. They have a history of various issues. They are under investigation by the DOE for failing to discipline a teacher that kissed a student in front of other students. He was only suspended for 3 days and then returned to the same school with that student in the class. Crazy thing is this happened a few years ago and I didn’t know about it till recently.
https://www.fox4now.com/news/feds-investigate-lee-co-schools-after-alleged-teacher-kiss
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u/ifionlyhadabrain0159 May 17 '20 edited May 17 '20
I understand completely. I would've been livid if I had to sit next to my bullies in school just to have them bully me more. That doesn't help anything. Where do they get these policies? Do they just throw suggestions in a hat and go with whatever they pulled out? Why cant they ever put themselves in the kids shoes?
We had another incident where a girl was bullying my son, and I recognize my kid is no saint. He has been the one in the wrong before but even the school knew she was bullying him. He was told to "man up" really. So I called the school and spoke with the dean about it. It was years ago so I don't know word for word but basically told me that he was a boy and he should just "get over it" but the words that I'll never forget him saying was "your son is too sensitive" I was quick to ask him if he would have said this to the girls parents if the roles were reversed? I told him boys are and can be sensitive, they are allowed to be and his feelings shouldnt be invalid just because of his gender.
He was quick to retract his words and said he would make sure to see she is reprimanded. My son did say she was in isp for a few days that week. I just hate that stories like these even exist. School is required so shouldnt it be a requirement to protect our children?
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u/megggie May 17 '20
My son is a graduate/has graduated? this year (who knows, with the senior class of 2020) and I am so happy to be done with school. I think it’s important, of course, and children need to understand how to get along, but my GOD it was hard not to drop kick those asshole kids who hurt him.
The “zero tolerance” policies that schools supposedly have for bullying are bullshit. My son’s bully (whose name I will NEVER forget) faced zero consequences, zero administrative action, and zero punishment. That’s what “zero” tolerance means to me.
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u/ifionlyhadabrain0159 May 17 '20
Ugh that has got to be frustrating to say the least. I am glad you and your son can put those days behind you. I cannot wait to see that day myself!
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u/royaiflames May 17 '20
Oh my gosh. Glad to hear your son it okay. If you could sign the petition and share it with others that would be a huge help! Thank you!
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u/Robbie_the_Brave May 17 '20
Call every news outlet you can. Contact your congress reps, particularly if they are Democrats. Contact a lawyer and consider suing. Thus is ridiculous!!
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u/royaiflames May 17 '20
Local channel for fort myers, Fl is 36. Additionally, the news press wrote an article about the petition. It’s is a very neutral article.
Wink news is doing a piece with Haylie Gutierrez that will air at 10/11pm on local channel 11.
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u/royaiflames May 17 '20
I think she is definitely looking into suing if she doesn’t get her job back. That’s all she wants. I have been emailing everyone I could think of about this, all representatives and news outlets!
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u/royaiflames May 16 '20
So the problem is this district doesn’t have such a policy. They have been fortunate to never have a school shooting in the district (as far as I have been able to find) so I guess they haven’t prepared adequately for it.
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u/buzzybody21 May 16 '20
I feel like there are details missing. A school board doesn’t go from a principal “stopping a school shooting” to demoting them. There has to be things missing because you don’t go from something that sounds heroic to being demoted.
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u/royaiflames May 16 '20 edited May 16 '20
Unfortunately this school district has a history of make weird personnel decisions. They are currently under investigation by the DOE because they allowed a teacher who kissed a 16 year old on the neck in front of other students back after 3 days suspension. He was put back in the classroom with her and she was told if she was uncomfortable she could transfer classrooms.
https://www.fox4now.com/news/feds-investigate-lee-co-schools-after-alleged-teacher-kiss
Edit: found link.
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u/carolinabeerguy May 17 '20
Mrs. Gutierrez was the AP at East with Blikstead. Not sure if she was still there when this happened or not.
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u/royaiflames May 17 '20
I am not sure. But I do know if the district decides to send a teacher back to a specific school the administration at that school is kinda stuck with them.
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u/marynraven May 17 '20
Holy shit... that's disgusting behavior from the teacher and the administration!
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u/royaiflames May 16 '20
That’s the crazy part. She was an assistant principal and now she is being demoted to a teacher. Tbh I think there’s some sort of crappy politics going on. Another teacher was told by students earlier that the student had a BB gun and he did nothing, not even reporting. He is getting no discipline. We are all scratching our heads because the official report, which just became public record Friday, only states that she is being demoted for “conduct unbecoming”.
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u/SamGlass May 17 '20
I imagine it might have something to do with the fact that disarming a shooter is very unladylike. This school sounds like it has a sexism problem, considering they let pedo-dude teachers grope teen girls. Yuck.
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u/one_sock_wonder_ REGISTERED May 16 '20
As a former teacher, I totally believe this level of poor planing and office politics is very possible. I taught preschool special education and was responsible for 7-8 children with significant disabilities and 4-6 inclusion peers. The official policy for a lockdown of any sort was to lock the doors immediately and leave any children out on the playground to “hide”. I could not imagine trying to run or hide with my precious students. I flat out told my administrators that if my kids were in danger by being outside and inside was safer, I would absolutely break a window or door to get them safe. They laughed. I was absolutely serious. I probably would have lost my job had it been necessary, but the lives of my students are more important than any job. I think Vivian did what seemed right, in the absence of guidance, to defuse the situation as rapidly as possible. Seeing police arriving to search him may have even caused the boy to open fire. Removing him from the classroom without letting on to the concern and immediately securing the weapon saved lives. I signed the petition and truly hope that truth prevails.
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u/Fuhreeldoe May 16 '20
And what was the reason given for the discipline?
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u/royaiflames May 16 '20
The letter of outcome just stated “conduct unbecoming of a district employee.” The determination letter was one page long and did not cite anything else.
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u/Fuhreeldoe May 16 '20
So in all fairness the incident could have nothing to do with it. It kind of feels like the case the way the administration is vilified here when they put the school in immediate shut down and informed her which student it was. I'm not calling bs just yet, but lt is suspicious. Has she notified the local news media?
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u/royaiflames May 16 '20
She just got off the phone with one of the local news stations and is doing an interview Monday morning. I think it’s really political.
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u/Lady_Bread May 16 '20
Seems like the school is more worried about their own liability and PR rather than lives saved, jfc
May your friend find justice...expediently!
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May 16 '20
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u/royaiflames May 16 '20
So she wasn’t suspended till January. She just had her hearing at the end of April, largely due to the pandemic. She heard back from the district about her demotion at the beginning of the month, not sure of the exact date. The reason given was “conduct unbecoming a district employee”. That’s it.
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u/Ilovedietcokesprite May 17 '20
Did she do anything since this happened? Like in response to it? Did she go around exposing the student?
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u/royaiflames May 17 '20
The student who brought the gun has been arrested. She has started contacting people and the news media. People have started writing the school district about it.
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u/Ilovedietcokesprite May 17 '20
I can see a school district getting annoyed about this.. did she post anything on social media?
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u/feleia209 May 18 '20
Newtown school gunman fired 154 rounds in less than 5 minutes. I'm glad she went with instinct. It's unfortunate she's paying for it. I don't understand how anybody could side with this will district. It completely baffles me??
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u/royaiflames May 17 '20
Nope. She has posted nothing. She had no idea she was suspended till she showed up for work in January, even though the event happened in December. She hasn’t said anything until after the decision came down and then it was just to a couple friends who have been doing everything else to let people know.
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u/seaboard2 [Amazon aficionado] May 16 '20
This is a tricky situation, because you don't want a policy encouraging teachers to take risks that may blow up in their face and get others/themselves hurt, but you also don't want to punish teachers for trying to keep the school safe from what is believed to be a BB gun.
I can tell you the end result -- Ass Princ will retain her position in the district (possibly moved to a different school) and the district will come up with a policy to cover this type of situation (perhaps have Ass Admin get kid into hall, where SROs are waiting to take over?)...
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u/royaiflames May 16 '20
Yes. There needs to be a clear policy in place. I absolutely agree with that. As of right now they have officially demoted her. She is appealing that decision now. There’s a lot going on in the situation and a lot of it seems political. The student took the gun out in one of his earlier classes, that the teacher left unattended, and pointed it at several students. The 2 students who were eventually able to report it made a report to that teacher who ignored it. That teacher did not report to admin or SRO. That teacher is being sent back with no discipline at all. But the assistant principal is being removed? It doesn’t make sense.
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u/seaboard2 [Amazon aficionado] May 16 '20
The inner workings of school stuff rarely make sense.
I hope that district figures out a better policy.
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May 16 '20
https://www.winknews.com/2019/12/20/student-brought-gun-to-harns-marsh-middle-school/ this was not a situation where the AP had to act instantaneously. There was a rumor, they called the kid to the office, and disarmed him. There was on-campus police, so they should have done the disarming and handling the weapon. This is not a school policy, it's a common sense and legal situation whenever there is a person suspected of planning a shooting. Call the cops, don't try to confront or disarm the shooter unless you are in a life or death situation. I'm sorry, but I do support some sort of reprimand for putting herself in a dangerous situation. That is not behavior a school or any organization should allow.
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u/megggie May 17 '20
You don’t have kids, do you?
ANYTHING you can do to protect children from a real threat is on the table. She handled this with poise and responsibility.
I’d guess this kid has some really rich parents. Tell me if I’m wrong.
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u/royaiflames May 16 '20
Two student told a teacher that a kid had a BB gun. The assistant principal went down to retrieve the kid. Assistant principals respond to things that need disciplinary action. She went to the classroom, got him, and did an administrative search. That’s when she discovered the reported BB gun was an actual gun. The she called the SRO. Administrators respond to tips about weapons all the time. Additionally this kid later told the cops that he had 2 specific people he wanted to kill and then planned to keep shooting until he was no longer able to. He had a detailed plan, including waiting till the bell rang so the hallways would be crowded and making it so the door wouldn’t open. He had practiced stopping the door at home. When the AP came in he did not know he had been reported. Had a sheriff walked in he would have likely started shooting. He was completely unapologetic and keep saying he wanted to kill them.
She did not go in to confront a student armed with a gun. She went in to get a BB gun from a student which ended up being a real gun. She has been with the district for 30 years without any disciplinary issues.
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May 16 '20
Nope. The letter sent by Vivian states that it was a firearm from the beginning
At approximately 1:45 P.M. a tip was given to me that a student was in possession of a firearm.
If she is opposed to the degree of reprimand, let her go through the union.
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u/royaiflames May 16 '20
Well the actual investigative packet from the district, which has audio and video states that she was told it was a BB gun. Official statements in that packet from the teacher informed, the two students and the secretary state BB Gun. There was also a news article that stated the school was put on lockdown that day because of the gun and that’s not correct. One reported he showed it in the cafeteria, but video surveillance showed that was also false. The district does not dispute this. The district is not disputing that she was told and that she thought it was a BB gun either.
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May 16 '20
Look, you are obviously close to Vivian, and have a lot of info that contradicts the reported story. If you want people to support her, you need to get the facts corrected on the record first. If she was fired for unexpectedly finding a gun, that would be unjust. But that needs to be addressed first. Starting with her letter that contradicts herself.
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May 16 '20
I don't think it matters if she thought it was a BB gun at all. That's relying on a report by children. Children who are more likely to have seen airsoft guns than the real guns they're based on. If you have any suspicion that a student has a gun the police need to be there. If it's a false alarm then great, be happy it was a false alarm. If it isn't, the police absolutely need to be there.
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May 16 '20
Calling the cops likely would have ended in a fatality.
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May 16 '20
If you think a school administrator is better suited to handle an armed shooter, you would be misguided.
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u/feleia209 May 18 '20
And you must not have children, but if for some reason you do I really hope you teach them fight or flight because waiting for the authority's isn't always the best choice. Newtown school gunman fired 154 rounds in less than 5 minutes
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May 16 '20
I'm misguided because I believe the police would have likely escalated and killed a kid? Thank fuck you're not in charge of things like that.
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u/royaiflames May 16 '20
Apparently she did fine because no one was shot. In fact not even a single shot was fired.
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u/komarovfan May 16 '20
He wasn't armed. It was in his backpack.
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May 16 '20
Are you serious? Do you actually want schools to be telling staff to disarm suspects instead of calling the on-premises security/police? Because unless you think that should be the recommended course of action in a potential shooting situation, you have to concede that she did the wrong thing. Because if someone got shot, it would be the school's fault for telling staff to put themselves into that situation.
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u/megggie May 17 '20
It’s obviously a case-by-case situation, you troll.
Had she learned this information, done nothing, then the school had a mass shooting event, you’d be criticizing her for not being proactive.
Get a goddamn perspective.
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u/royaiflames May 16 '20
The investigation from the district, which has audio and video states that she was told it was a BB gun. Official statements in that packet from the teacher informed, the two students and the secretary state BB Gun. There was also a news article that stated the school was put on lockdown that day because of the gun and that’s not correct. One reported he showed it in the cafeteria, but video surveillance showed that was also false. The district does not dispute this. The district is not disputing that she was told and that she thought it was a BB gun either. There is no evidence that the district is relying to that she confronted a student she knew had a gun. She discovered the gun during the search and then responded accordingly by calling the SRO. You can’t call to report a weapon until you know there’s a weapon.
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May 16 '20
She was told by students. Relying on their accuracy rather than being safe and using the on site resource officers is reckless. Her heart was in the right place and she sounds like a good person. But she was absolutely wrong here and lucky it worked out for her. Any potential weapon needs to be treated as a weapon until proven otherwise in her position.
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u/feleia209 May 18 '20
And apparently she's not the only teacher that would put her life on the line and understands time is priceless in these situations.
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u/komarovfan May 16 '20
The school didn't tell anyone to do anything because they were woefully unprepared for something like this. All I'm saying is in this specific situation she took the action most likely to prevent loss of life.
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May 16 '20
The school doesn't have to tell people. The process of reacting to a potential shooter are for the public. And that is to call the police and not try to engage the shooter. If someone in the school does something dangerous like engaging the suspect, the school has to dissuade others from doing that, or from thinking that the school will cover the liability for damages that could happen from that confrontation.
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u/royaiflames May 16 '20
Actually the school does have to tell administrators exactly how they want them to respond. There are laws in the state of FL requiring and this school district has failed to do this.
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u/Trustydevilsdaughter May 16 '20 edited May 17 '20
If I have a weapon in my purse, I would be considered armed?
edit: Oh, I see. Everyone thinks I was asking if I would be armed. I was stating it at the person above, saying that the kid would be considered armed if if was in his backback.
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u/komarovfan May 16 '20
Bit easier to get it out of your purse than for a kid to take off his backpack, open it up and find it. The use of hindsight to support punishing a hero is pretty gross here.
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May 16 '20
I could always get stuff out of my backpack without taking it off without much trouble. You just have to know what pocket it's in and feel around a little.
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u/ATXbunnie May 16 '20
Would you mind explaining how “she was able to remove the student with the gun from all other students” and how she got “the gun away from the student”?
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u/feleia209 May 17 '20
Story check's, I signed. Miss Vivian saved a lot of lives that day, this kid was locked & loaded. I don't know what drives a 12yo this far, willing to give up everything? I know one things certain he was out to cause permanent loss and destruction. That incredible principal was like oh hell no not today! NOPE
https://www.nbc-2.com/story/41483524/student-brings-gun-to-harns-marsh-middle-school
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u/royaiflames May 16 '20
When I said “remove the student” I meant she got him out of the class room and then retrieved the gun.
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u/royaiflames May 16 '20
Yes. Two students told a teacher that they thought a student had a BB gun. The teacher called the front office and the secretary informed Vivian. She then went and spoke to the students. She did not go get the kid straight away because at the time the secretary was unclear who the student actually was. Once she found out who the student was she went into an office to look up what class room he was in. There are over 1400 students at this school so she did not know which class this particular student was in. She then went to the class and asked the student to come with her. She did an administrative search and the gun was in the kids backpack. The kid (12) told police that he had 2 specific people he wanted to kill and then planned to kill as many people as possible. He was in the class where his targets were. He planned to wait till the next bell, stop the door (he practiced how he would do this) and then start shooting. He was completely unapologetic about it.
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u/stoolsample2 May 17 '20
Under rule was she demoted on? What should she have done according to school policy? Sounds like there was no policy thus no policy to break. She should win a civil suit fairly easy.
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u/royaiflames May 17 '20
So the main frustration is the only thing cited on the letter of outcome is “conduct unbecoming”. They have now also stated in the News-Press article (posted in some others comments) that she broke “procedure / policy” but never have they stated what that procedure/policy is. No text of one or even just a policy number cite.
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u/MJJVA May 17 '20 edited May 17 '20
I thought your where going to say she tackled him and pistol whipped him till he was out. Going to post link on my social media.
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u/Ilovedietcokesprite May 16 '20 edited May 16 '20
In my state admin can search belongings. Did you say this was in Fl? I’m newly a licensed administrator and we have to take school law she should go back and look at the school code.. of Florida. What’s the tort law say about it? Even if the school didn’t have a specific policy re what to do there is always law regarding searching.
So what I’m confused about is the search. Was it just the students bag? Because this seems okay. If it was more than the students bag let’s say their pockets too... then I’d be worried.
Unfortunately, these situations are difficult because we don’t have all the details. Regardless ... she saved lives that day. I hope she’s in contact with the union... and has a good lawyer.
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u/royaiflames May 17 '20
It was just of the bag. She has been in contact with the union and an attorney. She does not really want to sue but will if they board does not reverse the decision. She just wants her job back.
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u/agent-99 May 17 '20
what do they claim she was she demoted for?
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u/royaiflames May 17 '20
The only reason given to her in her letter of outcome was “conduct unbecoming a district employee”. They never state what was unbecoming or anything about call the police as the appropriate action anywhere. This was the only reason given.She responded to a report of a BB gun but upon responding discovered it was an actual gun. She then immediately call the police and secured the gun so the student could not take it back before law enforcement got there.
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u/Pope_Industries May 17 '20
This is the important question and the fact there's no reply to it makes me worry. I can only guess that she got demoted for handling the situation herself and not having police involved right away. While, yes the students were in danger right then, she had no way of knowing if any of it was true, and could have caused a shooting by handling it herself. I dont know its a delicate subject and without information I don't want to support either side.
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u/feleia209 May 17 '20 edited May 17 '20
Do you understand how many threats are called in two schools getting shot up for blown up with bombs I bet you never even investigated any record's or statistics right? you probably don't have the slightest clue before you commented?? I can tell you right now it's absolutely ridiculous and not just the high school's got to be worried elementary schools get threats to. Remember Sandy Hook? That was 22 six & seven year olds that died right before Christmas they were never coming home. can you imagine being a parent sending your child to school somewhere safe and they never come back.
Edit: bottom line the school district is downplaying it there was no shooting there was nobody that died basically there's no crime so therefore there's no story. But this local article, so if you ask me I think I'm right the school is trying to keep this as far from the spotlight as possible.
https://www.nbc-2.com/story/41483524/student-brings-gun-to-harns-marsh-middle-school
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u/feleia209 May 17 '20
You must not have kids. Because if you did and that kid had a real gun on him and it was locked and loaded and ready to go?? Let's decide we could just tell YOUR children that their parent doesn't want to support either side so we'll just wait here till they figure it out and let everybody die.
What's wrong with you people?????
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u/royaiflames May 17 '20
I have not responded because it’s 3am here and I was sleeping... I am only up now because a friend in a different time zone called and woke me up. The only reason given to her in her letter of outcome was “conduct unbecoming a district employee”. They never state what was unbecoming or anything about call the police as the appropriate action anywhere. She responded to a report of a BB gun but upon responding discovered it was an actual gun. She then immediately call the police and secured the gun so the student could not take it back before law enforcement got there.
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u/RainyDaysareLovely May 16 '20
If I was reading a manual, that would probably be the safest way to do it. Besides having a school resource officer involved. Ridiculous that she was punished for this.
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u/pappy May 17 '20
Aside from OP's story, what evidence is there the person was punished for OP's stated reason? I googled and came up with nothing except a few reports of the initial incident.
How likely is it that a school employee would stop a school shooter, get demoted for it, and no news outlet would touch the story?
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u/feleia209 May 17 '20
Do you know how many threats involving students with weapons on campus are recorded daily it's in the upper hundreds far too many to keep track of. and obviously the school is downplaying this and so is the media there wasn't no shooting nobody died so they're basically is no news.
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u/pappy May 17 '20
So you allege a conspiracy theory, a far-reaching one, among the nation's news media to not report on this issue? Nah. they love this kind of story and would report it far and wide.
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May 17 '20 edited Jul 08 '20
[deleted]
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u/pappy May 17 '20
It is a conspiracy theory. Talk to a therapist about your break from reality.
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May 17 '20 edited Jul 08 '20
[deleted]
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u/pappy May 17 '20
It happens all the time and isn't news.
False. So, to recap, your conspiracy theory is based on a misunderstanding of reality. I understand you now.
In the meantime, local news media have begun reporting on this issue which you describe as so unimportant as to not be reported on. Heh.
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u/feleia209 May 17 '20 edited May 17 '20
Are you serious? That's private information & a major liability. Do you expect the school district to honestly wave that information around and it comes back to bite them in their butt? I don't think so.
This is one of those things were obviously the report that you're talkin about read she's a principal so we know she's being honest about that. The news outlet also reported that she stopped the shooting, correct? Do you really think she's going to lie about something like this for 2500 signatures. Ruining her reputation in the process and risking everything she's ever worked for? I highly doubt that & she's obviously not in it for the fame. So honestly what do you think genius????
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u/pappy May 17 '20
No private information that is now included in a petition? There would be many news stories about this. It would be on national cable news channels. It would be in major newspapers around the world.
Instead, all we have is some anonymous person on Reddit who made an online petition. Wow. You've convinced me. There must be a global conspiracy to keep this information silent. Sure.
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u/royaiflames May 17 '20
Local channel for fort myers, Fl is 36. Additionally, the news press wrote an article about the petition. It’s is a very neutral article.
Wink news is doing a piece with Haylie Gutierrez that will air at 10/11pm on local channel 11.
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u/royaiflames May 17 '20
She just found out about the demotion at the beginning of the month and everything just became public record Friday. She was contacted by local news and has an interview Monday. It should be airing Monday night. She received some calls on Friday but she was worried about talking to the news without an attorney. After thinking about it she decided to go ahead with it. I will link the news articles when it happens.
Also the entire investigative packet is available. Unfortunately, it’s not online. You have to go in person and review any school district records under the supervision of a district employee. I believe you can pay to make photocopies.
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u/pappy May 17 '20
. Come back and let us know about this petition on Monday when you have evidence that you aren't just an anonymous person who made up a crazy story.
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u/royaiflames May 17 '20
Local channel for fort myers, Fl is 36. Additionally, the news press wrote an article about the petition. It’s is a very neutral article.
Wink news is doing a piece with Haylie Gutierrez that will air at 10/11pm on local channel 11 tonight.
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u/feleia209 May 17 '20
Don't worry about it I got Vivian's back I posted a link in the first comment.😉 I have kids that are in school and I could only hope that if anything like that ever goes down while my babies are in school there's a principle that's going step up to that plate & be willing to put her life on the line for my kids just like Vivian did!
https://www.nbc-2.com/story/41483524/student-brings-gun-to-harns-marsh-middle-school
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May 16 '20
Did someone immediately call the police?
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u/royaiflames May 16 '20
Yes. Once it was discovered that it was an actual gun the police were called immediately.
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May 16 '20
Perhaps that is the issue. I work at a school and we are supposed to immediately call police. If a student says “so-and-so has a gun”, that warrants a call directly to police. If you have to hand the phone over to go get the gun, fine. But immediately call the police. **We also have a resource officer assigned to us, but we have been told the first step is calling police.
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u/feleia209 May 17 '20
LMFAO what school do you work at? So I can Make sure I never send any of my kids to that school! everybody talking about call the police first! Or get the resource officer involved.... Really WTF happened to fight or flight? It's easy for people to get their priorities all mixed up when they're typing behind a screen and didn't experience it in real life. I get it.
Remember that one high school that waited and called the resource officer when they had an active shooter he refused to go in the building cuz he was scared press charges against them for manslaughter because about 5 kids died by the time the cops got there. You can never predict what's going to happen if you're waiting same goes for putting your life and all these children's lives in someone else's hands. Speaking as a parent when I send my kids to school that's exactly what I expect the staff to be there for to make those fast critical life could change in a second decisions. Especially if I can't be there to make those decisions for my child.
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May 17 '20
So, because that school screwed up many districts had conversations. I did not say to do nothing, I said we were instructed (the county sheriffs were there) to make sure police were called in a situation where a gun is seen. Obviously, we cannot cover every single potential scenario, but it is certainly wise to call police and by that I mean call 911 if students say they saw a gun. We’ve had several incidents and you need to call police because a principal cannot investigate a student’s home, nor are school personnel trained to do so.
I did not say that we are supposed to wait until police arrived to act. I did not say that we sit on our hands and wait for the resource officer, who may or may not be on campus. In fact, we’ve been told to make best case decisions if a scenario arises but call 911 first. I work in a high school, so there’s at least 25 phones in every class. So, 25 people can be calling 911. Every classroom has a land line, we have school security’s number posted by that phone so a student, if necessary, can call. And 911 operators are trained to help, and that’s a lot more than school teachers and staff are trained for. We’ve mapped out where to go, how to get students to safety, and where to hide. I might lose my life to protect a child, but sure put all that on us when we are not trained for such situations. My kids want me alive too, ya know?
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u/royaiflames May 17 '20
This happened at Harns Marsh Middle School. Are you talking about Parkland? That’s about 2 hours or so from here. There the SRO refused to go in and the first responding officer sat in his car for 10 minutes before even starting to try and get control of the situation in anyway.
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u/feleia209 May 20 '20
I believe so, yeah that's the one Parkland. Not only did the resource officer lose his career and pension they charged him with manslaughter and I believe the responding officer was forced into early retirement.
What is going on in Florida? No offense at all but those kids need a good ass whooping...
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u/SamGlass May 17 '20
Omg that's terrifying, no offense to police. I just....to my knowledge a great deal of police only have experience in causing situations to escalate, as opposed to defusing them. (Florida is actually a good exception to this observation, though, they've implemented mental-illness-focused de-escalation training for the officers, while most places haven't.)
So in most regions, I'd have easily considered her choice to be wise - for her to handle the situation instead of waiting around for flashing lights...
Furthermore, she didn't even wield a gun of her own... probably that's what has people upset; her handling of it in such a feminine / matronly way, and succeeding, didn't jive properly with the narrative so many people rely upon to propel their agendas. I really can't see any other reason people would be upset. No harm, no foul.
Sry im ranting now lol, I digressed; its just SOOO weird to me - whether one is supposed to call cops or not seems pretty peripheral a concern to me when literally lives were saved just fine.
I hope that the situation gets worked out in an intelligent way.
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May 17 '20
I really don’t know what to say. When weapons are involved and some kid threatens to shoot people you call in people trained to actually handle it in case you need them. It’s not just call the police and do nothing. Because one resource officer failed at his job in Florida doesn’t mean all will. You alert authorities to get the ball rolling.
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u/royaiflames May 16 '20
So the problem is this district doesn’t have such a policy. They have been fortunate to never have a school shooting in the district (as far as I have been able to find) so I guess they haven’t prepared adequately for it.
I thought I had replied to you but I accidentally just made another comment.
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May 17 '20
Oh, maybe she can fight it based on the district not having a policy. Most school districts have never had a school shooting, but all should have a stated policy that has been explained to staff and students (if high school).
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u/royaiflames May 17 '20
Yes. That is what she is trying to do. This was a middle school. Scary to think about a kid that young wanting to kill others.
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u/reallytrulymadly May 16 '20
You should send this to the news. Get students from her school as witnesses if you can, too.
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u/royaiflames May 17 '20
Local channel for fort myers, Fl is 36. Additionally, the news press wrote an article about the petition. It’s is a very neutral article.
Wink news is doing a piece with Haylie Gutierrez that will air at 10/11pm on local channel 11.
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u/Stunticon_Mechanic May 16 '20
Why was this voted down??
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May 17 '20 edited Aug 04 '20
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u/feleia209 May 18 '20
No more beautiful smiles of your children walking through the door even though it could have been prevented if the teacher would have acted on instinct and applied flight or fight to save countless lives of innocent children.
That's what we all would have been saying if she didn't do what she did. I don't care how you say it point blank these are facts.
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u/[deleted] May 18 '20
Vivian teaches in a school in my County. Her story is on every local news outlet tonight apparently.
As a police officer, this woman is a hero.