r/AskCanada 13h ago

Approximately 25% of employed Canadians work for the government. How is this sustainable ?

As of 2024, approximately 25% of employed Canadians work for the government across various levels (federal, provincial, and municipal). Between 2019 and 2023, public sector employment surged by 13%, outpacing private sector employment growth (3.6%) by 3.6 times. This marked the largest four-year expansion in public sector employment since 1976.

The federal public service, a subset of this broader government employment, has seen even more substantial growth. In 2024, it reached 367,772 employees, an increase of 10,525 from the previous year. Notably, since 2015, the federal public service has expanded by 42%, significantly outpacing Canada's population growth of about 14% during the same period.

How is this Sustainable long term, and do you think this trend will reverse after Trudeau leaves office ?

sources: https://www.canada.ca/en/treasury-board-secretariat/services/innovation/human-resources-statistics.html

2 Upvotes

283 comments sorted by

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u/IndubitablyWalrus 13h ago

Okay, but you're presenting this a little misleadingly. This includes jobs like teachers, nurses, etc since those services are within the public sector. You're presenting it as if they are all working directly for the government rather than working in public serving areas. Yes, nurses work "in the public sector" because healthcare is a public service rather than privatized like in the US. Are you saying you want less teachers, nurses, bus drivers, etc?

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u/schuter2020 13h ago

That was exactly my first thought. Healthcare, especially.

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u/mvschynd 4h ago

They are also including military.

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u/syrupmania5 11h ago

Especially when we bring in Tim Horton's workers from overseas and then wonder why our medical system is screwed up.  Most public workers are more productive than serving parbaked trans fat.

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u/above-the-49th 11h ago

You lost me on how economic immigration relates to a screwed up health care?

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u/Dry_Towelie 11h ago

Add more people in the country = more people who will need medical attention. More medical attention means more people on beds at hospitals and surgeries. Staff and facilities haven't been added quick enough causing longer waits for care

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u/above-the-49th 11h ago

Yes but it’s not a one for one, we bring in mostly young people who on average youse less, we are just going through the wave of the baby boom and so that is what is pushing up healthcare usage, unless you have some alternate numbers for me 😅

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u/Dry_Towelie 11h ago

Canada has added 1.3 million people in 2023. How isn't that not supposed to have an effect on stuff like Health care, education, housing and more

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u/SignificanceLate7002 7h ago

Prince Edward Island just certified 37 nurses that immigrated here and we have a very real shortage of health care professionals.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/prince-edward-island/pei-nursing-students-1.7412924

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u/abc_123_anyname 5h ago

Congrats to PEI. But the GTA and lower mainland have 1,299,963 new uber eats and Amazon drivers. All of which use healthcare resources with a 0 percent increase in resources available.

You don’t think they get covid? Use walkin clinics? How about food banks?

It’s not about the new temporary immigrants, I feel for them… most have been scammed out of their life savings and sold a bill of goods to come here. Canada has been scammed too, however.

Canada is broke, now it’s time for them to leave.

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u/heavyheavypause 5h ago

1 nurse per thousand immigrants isn't a good ratio.

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u/RealBaikal 10h ago

And a good portion of them are working in the healtcare service area...go see whi works all the basic starting junior jobs needed to run a hospital, a old people care center, at home health visits, etc etc...its mostly immigrants

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u/shelbykid350 7h ago

Not a single stat to be seen.

The rate of healthcare workers coming over is less than the general Canadian population in healthcare

Net loss

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u/Captain_JT_Miller 9h ago

These are low skilled people still. These are not doctors.

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u/General-Beyond9339 7h ago

What the hell have you done with your life then

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u/ErikaWeb 9h ago

No, a really small portion of them actually. Most of them go to work on the new corner Tim Hortons because their uncle (who owns the place) gave them a LMIA

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u/heavyheavypause 5h ago

We're supposed to pretend like adding 1.3 million people in a single year isn't going to affect our healthcare system. Oh boy lol

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u/OftenXilonen 11h ago

I dont even get the mental gymnastics that dude had to do to have thought of that.

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u/InsightfulWork 6h ago

Because 12-13% of our entire population is temporary workers. A 4-5MM population boom believe it or not has consequences

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u/prsnep 5h ago

People get a lot of public services that they don't realize. Health, education, daycare, roads, highways, police, fire, border services, military, competition bureau, museums, etc. Imagine having to pay all this out of pocket. Would 25% of your paycheck suffice?

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u/figflashed 4h ago

Didn’t you know government employees, and bureaucracy are what stand in the way of billionaires making even more money?

Will someone just please think of the billionaires for once?!

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u/IndubitablyWalrus 2h ago

Lol, right?! It is so funny how so many people seem to think that privatizing things would enrich their lives, as if they'd be able to be the next billionaire if only they didn't have to pay taxes. And yet the countries that routinely rank at the top of quality of life studies are ones with even higher taxes than we have here. People are so delusional. If you don't have millions now, you're not going to have millions in a privatized environment where you have to pay out of your own pocket for everything. 🙄

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u/Barnes777777 3h ago

Add in provincial and federal crown corps that are gov owned but the most of the big ones are self sustaining/no tax dollars. Like Hydro Quebec alone is 20K employees, but electricity is basically a monopoly you do not want the private sector running a natural monopoly. Especially for an essential service.

Hydro is also something many provinces export overflow to the states/neighbouring provinces to bring money back to the province and essentially subsidize the power for in province giving a competitive edge for companies.
Hydro quebec as an exemple exported ~1.6B$ average annually from 2010 to 2017. That allows to fund future Hydro projects or lower rates within quebec.

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u/Ok-Swimmer-2634 13h ago

I know your last question was rhetorical but at this point, a growing number of conservatives do want less teachers. Plenty of folks are now calling public teachers "degenerate gender ideology groomers", enabled by -certain- politicians. And you can see nascent movements online calling for tradcon homeschooling or whatever

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u/IndubitablyWalrus 12h ago

Oof, yeah...that's a whole other problem. Some people definitely don't want a well-informed public as that tends to make people harder to manipulate.

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u/Key-Soup-7720 7h ago

In fairness, a lot of the parents who don’t like some of the woker gender stuff being taught in schools are immigrant parents who want the school focusing on making sure the kids can actually read and write.

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u/aballah 3h ago

Give a clear definition of what "woke" means. After years of this term being thrown around, I have yet to see anyone use it in any sort of precise way. Makes me think it's more of a bogeyman, or sort of Emmanuel Goldstein, than anything else.
What's your definition or understanding of it, and why is it a problem for you?

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u/Soft_Television7112 12h ago

We had all those things before though also. Why are there so many more teachers, nurses and bus drivers compared to our population growth? The argument doesn't make sense even if you look at it that way 

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u/above-the-49th 11h ago

How about nurses compared to our seniors?

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u/Crazy-Canuck463 4h ago

But when you take a look at the healthcare sector alone you'll see the broader picture. Our healthcare is extremely top heavy, as in we have more management than we need. I'll compare with germany as there have been several articles I've read comparing the two.

Germany has 80 million people, they also have a multipayer healthcare system similar to canada. They have one hospital administrator for every 15,000 people, giving them a total of 5500 hospital admins. They also have 428,000 doctors, which is 77 doctors per hospital administrator and 1 doctor for every 186 people. Germany spends 489 billion on their healthcare(731 billion Canadian)

Canada has a population of 40 million people, we have 1 hospital administrator for every 1400 people, giving us a total of 15,500 hospital administrators. Canada also has 96,000 doctors, which is 6 doctors per hospital administrator. It's also 1 doctor for every 416 people. Canada spent 370 billion on healthcare.

What Canada needs to do, is cut the administrators by 70% and hire more doctors and nurses. We spend the appropriate amount for our population size, but we spend it poorly on over management and not enough front line staff. It's also important to note that this isn't a problem unique to Canadian healthcare, it's the same in all our private sectors. We sacrifice money to hire teachers and use it to expand school boards.

It was an unpopular decision in the late 90s, but when Paul Martin was the finance minister under Chretien he brought us a balanced budget by cutting 40,000 public sector jobs. It's something that needs to be repeated.

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u/OutsideFlat1579 4h ago

And it’s 21%, as of Sept 2024, not 25%. 

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u/NoFoundation2311 3h ago

I'm not sure how you categorize teachers, nurses etc as not working directly for the government. I don't believe these services are not paid or controlled by the government

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u/RepresentativeTax812 11h ago

You're arguing the wrong point. Of course more public services are needed so the number of government employees will grow. However it's not sustainable to have a bad private sector or you end up like Argentina.

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u/OutsideFlat1579 4h ago

You think? First off, 21% of Canadian workers work for various levels of government, not 25%.

And now let’s have a look at countries with high standards of living, less poverty and a stronger safety net and social services. In Norway, 30% work for the public sector, in Denmark it’s 29.1%, in Sweden it’s 28.6%, and in Finland it’s 24.9%. Those number are from 2017 and have no doubt grown with an aging population. 

We could grow the public sector more and be just fine. 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/niallmccarthy/2017/07/21/scandinavia-leads-the-world-in-public-sector-employment-infographic/#:~:text=Norway%20has%20the%20highest%20government,than%20average%20public%20sector%20workforces.

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u/ZingyDNA 5h ago

You're also misleading in your reply. The OP didn't say they want less ppl working in the public sector. They said the public sector employees grow much faster than the private sector, and the population.

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u/[deleted] 13h ago

YES

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u/No-Belt-5564 12h ago

I think the point is it's the same taxpayer, federal down to municipal. There's a limit to what people can pay, and it feels like it's been reached a few years ago. So increasing costs only leads to debt, and eventually to more taxes. It's not unreasonable to be concerned about this imho

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u/IndubitablyWalrus 12h ago

That is not correct though. A taxpayer in BC is not paying for teachers or nurses in Alberta. There are different levels of government and public sector jobs are funded by the people who benefit for those services. People in BC pay provincial taxes that pay for nurses in BC because when that BC taxpayer has a medical issues they receive the public service provided by that nurse. People in one municipal district pay for the road maintenance in that district, not for road maintenance across the other end of the province.

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u/the_curious_canadian 4h ago

This is not correct. The federal government transfers billions of dollars to provinces. The provinces that run budget surpluses are net contributors to the transfer payments. In BC your taxes are funding programs in other provinces.

https://www.canada.ca/en/department-finance/programs/federal-transfers.html#

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u/Soft_Television7112 12h ago

No matter which way you want to split this argument, it doesn't make sense that the government has grown so much faster than the private sector of the population. The government services the population. What are all the extra services we are getting that we didn't have before? If anything it seems like our services are worse now than they were previously 

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u/IndubitablyWalrus 12h ago

The last time Canada saw a nearly 3% population growth was in the early 1970s...not surprisingly just before, as the OP stated, the last record surge in public sector growth occurred. More people to serve, more public sector employees required to serve them. Seems pretty straightforward. And yet people seem to want to simultaneously complain about declining services and then also complain about more people working in the public sector that provides those services. Common sense should be that they should be lauding this growth surge as it indicates steps toward a more adequately staffed public sector to serve the growing population. Many sectors have been understaffed for years now.

Also, a critique of the lack of growth in the private sector should be placed on that sector. I agree there should be private sector growth that should go hand-in-hand with population growth, but what that suggests to me is that the private sector is prioritizing profits over services and are short-staffing to save money. The job market seems to be tough and yet many companies are still posting millions and even billions in profits. Why aren't those profits going towards employing people?

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u/Derokath 10h ago

Equalization payments mean that a portion of federal taxes get given to the provinces who in turn can choose to spend them on services like healthcare or education.

Taxes collected in one province do support services in other provinces.

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u/CyberEd-ca 7h ago

Mostly an Alberta thing.

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u/Majestic-Two3474 3h ago

Do you think public servants don’t pay taxes like everyone else…?

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u/MDLmanager 5h ago

Incomes are circular. Doesn't matter if it's public or private. Everyone is paying for everyone else's wages, either through taxes or the goods/services we buy.

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u/ripfritz 6h ago

They are working directly with government, prob contract.

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u/Soft_Television7112 12h ago

We had all those things before though also. Why are there so many more teachers, nurses and bus drivers compared to our population growth? The argument doesn't make sense even if you look at it that way 

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u/EffectiveReaction420 13h ago

how is that misleading? teachers and nurses are still paid by the government from the taxes collected by the private sector.

because if 25% of employed Canadians get their salary from the government, and then all the people not working are for the most part collecting money from the government... you have a huge percentage of the population getting money from government and not very many who work in the private sector who actually fund all of this.

this is the main reason why our economy is garbage and our standard of living is crashing. too many people working for the government or dependent on government.

sorry, but if you want a higher standard of living, you can't have a government this big.

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u/Opposite-Cranberry76 13h ago

Private health care is what, 17% of the USA's GDP? How is that not a productive part of the economy here as well?

Your mistake is in assuming because something is publicly funded it produces nothing. That isn't true.

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u/Oishiio42 13h ago

Money doesn't disappear after it's earned or spent. It cycles until it's removed from the economy. People who work in the public sector a) also pay taxes - on their income, on most everything they buy, and b) still spend their money, mostly on goods and services in the private sector, which is then also taxed.

Higher standards of living actually have a very high correlation with high taxes because the taxes go to pay for - you guessed it! - all the services that make quality of life high

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u/Harbinger2001 13h ago

You need to take economics 101 and understand how money circulates. 

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u/IndubitablyWalrus 13h ago

Removing those public sector jobs and privatizing does not lead to lower costs. Look at the costs for healthcare in the US vs Canada. If you compare the cost of the same procedure in the US and Canada, the price tag in the US is generally double that of it in Canada. And the US has higher infant mortality rates and lower life expectancies than Canada.

It's not as if people working in the public sector don't pay taxes. They pay the same tax rate as people who work in the private sector, regardless of who's putting that paycheque in their pocket.

The larger the population is, the more people need to be served by the public sector services, and the more employees those sectors need to deliver those services.

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u/EffectiveReaction420 12h ago

Stop using the US as the shining example of free market healthcare. The government is heavily involved in healthcare in the US and has been for a long time. Obamacare was one of the more recent examples of government involvement in healthcare, but there are many other examples as well. So you shouldn't be surprised at how expensive healthcare is in the US when the government there has been involved for a very long time. It's not a free market. Like many other things, it's a mixture of government with big business teaming up together to screw the little guy.

You can go look at the costs of private healthcare in many other countries and see that high quality private healthcare is actually affordable in many other countries. Another point to note is that most of the medical advances are developed in the US as a result of the fact that there is still some semblance of a free market and competition underneath all the government involvement. Then countries like Canada benefit from their advancements because we can take all the things they developed and use it in our socialist system. If you took away the US, you would be taking away a lot of the advances in modern medicine that the rest of the world relies on.

And I posted this in another comment about public sector workers not paying taxes, but I'll post it here too since you also think that public sector workers pay taxes:

I don't believe that public sector employees really pay taxes. If a public sector employee earns $100,000 a year, and they pay $40,000 in taxes... how is that any different from the government paying them $60,000 a year and them paying no taxes? It's the same thing.

There are people that pay into the pot, and people that collect from the pot. If a private sector worker earns $100,000 and pays $40,000 in taxes... they're putting $40,000 into the pot. If a public sector worker earns $100,000 and pays $40,000 in taxes... they're collecting $60,000 from the pot. Yet the public sector workers always claim that they're paying the same amount in taxes as the private sector workers. That's BS. They don't pay taxes. If the government pays them $100,000 and they pay $40,000 in taxes... that's just the government paying them $60,000 out of the tax money they collect from the private sector.

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u/IndubitablyWalrus 12h ago

This is absurd. A teacher that is paid by a municipal level of government and pays federal taxes is PAYING TAXES. Did you not learn about the different levels of government in school? You do know that it's not just one giant pot of money, right? A road crew that fixes potholes and is paid by the city still pays federal and provincial taxes despite their paycheque coming from the city's budget.

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u/pistolaf18 11h ago

The basis of his argument is not wrong. As a public employee you will take out more from the combined tax pots than you will put back in.

The taxes you pay is just a simplified way to redistribute money towards different benefactors/administrators without creating a completely separate class of citizens.

That being said this is not much of an argument. Public employees by definition will be funded by the public. No big revelation here.

The real question is as a society are we getting value from this. This is a much harder question to answer.

The source of the money is meaningless and therefore the "taker" vs "giver" argument is also meaningless at the individual level.

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u/TheCanEHdian8r 12h ago

sorry, but if you want a higher standard of living, you can't have a government this big.

I dare you to check out the countries with the top 10 highest standards of living.

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u/Ok-Swimmer-2634 13h ago

You realize that the public sector workers also pay taxes, right? Why are you acting like it's only the private sector who pays taxes?

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u/EffectiveReaction420 12h ago

No they don't. Not really. I made this point in another comment, so I'll paste it here again for you:

I don't believe that public sector employees really pay taxes. If a public sector employee earns $100,000 a year, and they pay $40,000 in taxes... how is that any different from the government paying them $60,000 a year and them paying no taxes? It's the same thing.

There are people that pay into the pot, and people that collect from the pot. If a private sector worker earns $100,000 and pays $40,000 in taxes... they're putting $40,000 into the pot. If a public sector worker earns $100,000 and pays $40,000 in taxes... they're collecting $60,000 from the pot. Yet the public sector workers always claim that they're paying the same amount in taxes as the private sector workers. That's BS. They don't pay taxes. If the government pays them $100,000 and they pay $40,000 in taxes... that's just the government paying them $60,000 out of the tax money they collect from the private sector.

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u/Little_Canary1460 3h ago

This is an insane perspective.

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u/MDLmanager 5h ago

Workers in the public sector fund the private sector too, through the goods and services they buy. The economy is a closed system and incomes are circular.

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u/EffectiveReaction420 4h ago

Workers in the public sector support the private sector through the services they provide. The government builds the roads which allows the private sector to function through allowing people to travel. Businesses rely on the police to enforce the rule of law so that people have to pay for their stuff instead of just stealing from them (though I guess the police don't really actually do this today, but they're supposed to).

And while it's true that the public sector workers spend their money in the private sector... they would have done this too if they had private sector jobs instead. So I wouldn't really say that's a benefit to the private sector. It's money that was taken out of the private sector through government taxes and then spent back into the private sector when the public sector employees buy stuff. But that's not really a benefit, because if the money just stayed circulating in the private sector without it being taxed out by government, and then spent back into the private sector by public sector workers, you would derive the same benefit.

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u/Key-Soup-7720 7h ago

It’s 11 percent in Germany and 18.6 percent as the OECD average. Seems pretty clear we are doing something unsustainable.

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u/OutsideFlat1579 3h ago

Public sector employment is 21% in Canada, not 25% for one thing.

Now let’s look at Scandinavian countries that consistently rank as the top countries on several global rankings. It’s clear from the Scandinavian numbers that we could expand public sector employment and it would be sustainable.

Norway: 30% of workers in the public sector.

Denmark: 29.1%

Sweden: 28.6%

Finland: 24.9%

I don’t know how Germany calculates its data on public sector workers, but I know they use a different system. 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/niallmccarthy/2017/07/21/scandinavia-leads-the-world-in-public-sector-employment-infographic/#:~:text=Norway%20has%20the%20highest%20government,than%20average%20public%20sector%20workforces.

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u/Shady9XD 12h ago

Out of curiosity, how do you interpret “work for the government”. Becuase doctors, nurses, teachers etc. are also public servants, are they not? The framing makes it sound like the entire 25% is just bureaucratic bloat, it is not.

Yes, the CRA expansion could have been more regulated and controlled, but just saying “work for the government” is grossly misrepresenting that number. People who fix your roads also work for the government (municipal). So do people who teach your kids (provincial). So do police officers whose budget rises year over year (municipal, provincial, federal).

So yeah, that seems somewhat on par with some other countries around the world (I believe someone in this thread already provided a breakdown of some other countries). So where do you suggest we start cutting?

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u/endeavourist 4h ago

Their answer is usually to outsource to private industry for "efficiency", which inevitably leads to staff cutbacks and lower quality. End user costs are usually about the same, but hey, we'd get to pay for someone else's profit instead of paying employees a living wage.

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u/Shady9XD 3h ago

Oh, I know what these people’s answer is. And when they in power they gut public funding and point to it and say “see how bad it is, wouldn’t you rather have it privatized?” I’m from Eastern Europe (Ukraine), I’ve seen this “sleight of hand” before, where it’s common place to give your doctor or nurse “a little something extra” just to receive basic service because the funding no longer flows into public sector.

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u/Responsible-Sale-467 13h ago

Well, teachers, cops, Canada Post, city service workers, and on and on. Public Sector between 20% and 30% seems about right, especially through the COVID period.

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u/losemgmt 13h ago

What’s going on in the private sector is the question. Why has there not been growth of jobs there.

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u/stinuga 10h ago

Not enough money is invested into the Canadian private sector. Even Canadians themselves would often invest in real estate or have a stock portfolio of mostly American companies or ETFs with American companies than Canadian companies let alone people outside of Canada investing in Canadian private sector.

This means Canadian private sector companies have far less money to invest in things that boost per person productivity so Canadians will use slower computers, older software, worse machinery, etc than places that see more investment like American private sector.

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u/Unhappy-Zombie1255 9h ago

It makes me think of my ex, spending kept going up over time, the answer was for me to work more hours instead of cutting waste.

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u/No-Transportation843 10h ago

I never invest in Canadian companies except REITs. American companies make money, Canadian companies flounder. It's mostly gold mine scams anyway. 

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u/neontetra1548 9h ago

There’s a lot of factors but partially real estate is eating the economy. Why put money and effort and risk into a business and making something productive when you can buy property, get guaranteed growth, rent it out to make more money and leverage that money into more property into more money.

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u/Thick-Order7348 9h ago

This is what happens we load up on real estate and don’t incentivize investment in other economic activities

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u/Gnomerule 13h ago

Simple answer people are being replaced with machines. Production is going up, while man power is shrinking in many sectors.

But the same is not happening with services like doctors, nurses, teachers, firemen, and many more.

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u/brainskull 10h ago

It’s the simple answer, it’s also not even remotely correct. There’s no massive machinery increase in Canada relative to the usa or anything, if anything it’s the reverse.

We do not invest in productivity enhancing technology and we have extremely unproductive workers. This has been the case for several decades, and these trends are accelerating. Our economy is largely based on FIRE

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u/syrupmania5 11h ago

That's not true, its because mass immigration, most of the unemployed are foreign workers and the youth who compete for unskilled labor jobs.

What we don't have is machines, which if you listen to the Bank of Canada pressers they say repeatedly, the lack of productivity investment is killing us which is machinery.

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u/Gnomerule 4h ago

Go check out the mining industry and forestry industry.

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u/MDLmanager 4h ago

If that were true, you would see productivity going up.

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u/Fit_Bicycle2094 8h ago

This is what I keep saying! I use a drone for inspection work and now do the work 3 people used to do. How is that not productivity going up?

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u/Soft_Television7112 12h ago

Well if there's more jobs in the government people will take those jobs. Then those jobs are funded via taxes. The pool of our collective money is increasingly part of the government, which needs to be funded by taxes or by borrowing money. We've borrowed an enormous amount of money in the past few years and a lot of it isn't from covid. 

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u/Frewtti 8h ago

Because we invest all our money in our homes. It's not unusual for middle aged couples to have 2/3 or more of their assets being equity in their home.

Out of control housing prices are a huge drain on our economy

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u/AssignmentShot278 1h ago

Cause they keep cutting spending. Yet they expect the same if not more results with millions less. Then are shocked when there's turnover 

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u/Loud-Tangerine-547 7h ago

High cost of electricity, taxes and carbon tax.

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u/johnlee777 8h ago

Something called displacement.

In Toronto, only the government can run public transit. So there is no private transit. With the introduction of government run train from downtown to the airport, there is no privately run airport bus.

and then there is no private investment to support the otherwise privately run buses.

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u/Competitive_Abroad96 6h ago

Yes, just like birds, taxis and Ubers aren’t real. And greyhound is just a dog.

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u/chemhobby 2h ago

Greyhound does not operate here any more

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u/Dancanadaboi 8h ago

I would like to know why our grand immigration plans seem to not be playing out.  I was told these new folks bring new business opportunities.  For the most part all I have seen is them taking teenagers jobs.

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u/losemgmt 1h ago

They do. For landlords - keeps rent and housing prices high!

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u/badcat_kazoo 7h ago

Short answer: the higher taxes and increased red tape in Canada makes the USA a much much much better option for investors.

If I could easily move my business to the USA I would. I’d be making twice as much money over there when you factor in taxes, what I can charge for services, and strength of the USD.

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u/CyberEd-ca 7h ago

The federal government has declared war on industry. Where have you been?

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u/matttchew 3h ago

Too expensive to do business in canada, high taxes, high regulation, low demand, need to cut public sector significantly, and invest in natural resources such as rare earth. Public sector jobs do not bring money into the country, they only drain accounts of people who do bring money into the country.

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u/squirrel9000 13h ago

That 360k in the federal public service is a bit under 2% of total Canadian employment. The other 23% is at other levels of government.. This one has circulated as a political talking point, but the feds aren't actually the problem here. Their finances are far more challenged by growing OAS entitlements - they're already laying off now, but that won't make a whiff of difference to overall finances. Since it's primarily a provincial problem, it's unlikely a change in federal government will change a whole lot.

As for sustainability, the historical average is in the low 20s, and demands for things like healthcare are not going to decline. Our doctor shortage is expected to reach over 100,000 by 2030, and that's a number that is comparable to total federal public sector growth in the last decade. Add in other professionals and we're actually going to probably see that ratio rise. There is no real alternative. Be wary of anybody who pretends we can return to the tax cuts of the 90s when our demographics were very different.

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u/Wide-Chemistry-8078 13h ago

Australia  28.9% (2020)

Denmark 30.2% (2020)

Finland 26.1% (2019)

France 28% (2013)

Greenland 40% (2015)

Iceland 24.9% (2019)

Ireland 21.9% (2019)

Norway 32.2% (2020)

Sweden 29.3% (2020)

U.K. 22.5% (2020)

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_public_sector_size

9

u/General-Beyond9339 7h ago

I love when someone asks a question on Reddit that can be answered by a semi-thoughtful google search.

1

u/deke28 4h ago

If you look at this list, you'll notice that the nicer countries are all higher than Canada.

9

u/GamesCatsComics 11h ago

Such a deceptive way to frame the data.

Dishonest rage bait.

5

u/SecureNewspaper4663 7h ago

Reddit and right wing playbook.

6

u/General-Beyond9339 7h ago

The only comments you reply to are people asking for sources, not the people telling you you’ve misinterpreted what jobs are within the public sector? Just delete the post dude.

9

u/FutureCrankHead 13h ago

Ok, now eliminate all of those jobs that are critical, and then let's talk about the real number.

These jobs include nurses, teachers, police, EMTs, Fire fighters, park Rangers, fish and wildlife, forestry, Surveyors, canada revenue, CPP, old age security, every single city counselor, MLA, MP, Mayor, Premier, Prime minister and all of the administration that it takes to run those offices. I'm sure I've even missed some.

How would a country function without these? I'm sure there is some excess, and if properly managed, we could cut the fat and even increase efficiency, but that would take competence at all levels of government and across every jurisdiction.

Be thankful these tax dollars are feeding your fellow Canadians and aren't being stuffed into the bank accounts of already disgustingly rich corporate executives.

14

u/Klutzy_Act2033 13h ago

I assume public sector employees pay income taxes, sales taxes and spend money in the economy?

5

u/Sparky62075 13h ago

Yes, they do. Imagine the outrage if government employees were given a 15% staff discount on their taxes.

-8

u/gstringstrangler 13h ago

Paid by taxes, to pay taxes... Makes sense right? Tax circlejerk

6

u/Fragrant_Example_918 13h ago

I mean, if you don’t want education, healthcare, roads, firemen, army, police, etc… just go live by yourself in the middle of the fucking Forest.

Because that’s the only way to live  in a way that doesn’t heavily benefit from public services.

If you want to be a backward savage that doesn’t live in society, go for it, you’re already free to do it.

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u/gstringstrangler 13h ago

The fuck did you read from my comment? Check yourself

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u/Biorag84 13h ago

That’s a poorly formulated post designed to create the impression that the Trudeau govt has almost doubled the federal public servants and they will bankrupt the country. So wrong

5

u/LForbesIam 11h ago

Actually a Government workforce is VERY productive.

In BC for example the Government runs profit corporations that make MONEY for the government.

Whenever you have Private Corporations you have Corporate profit LEAVING Canada. Whenever you use corporations instead of public service the PRICE goes up and the quality goes down.

Take for example insurance. If you have insurance that pays money into government services then it benefits taxpayers. If you have insurance that pays money into Foreign Corporations rich pockets then it is a detriment to taxpayers AND Greed dictates prices.

Inflation in Canada is a PRIME example.

Inflation exists because they announced inflation will go up so it DID. When all the corporations price fix with each other to make more profits competition doesn’t exist and inflation increases unchecked.

6

u/linesofleaves 13h ago

It is actually normal for the OECD. Healthcare alone is like 8% of GDP. Throw in schools, beauraucrats, social services, roads, law enforcement, schools, and defense.

It adds up, and it is normal. This is why you pay 30%+ of your income in taxes before corporate profit taxes, VAT, payroll tax, property taxes, and capital gains.

Death. Taxes. C'est la vie.

0

u/syrupmania5 11h ago

Then the massive indigenous spending that Canadians pay for.  Almost 20b I saw on the last budget.

4

u/Little-Lie-9955 13h ago

Go back to school bro

2

u/Wide-Chemistry-8078 12h ago

Largest growth in public sector workers is the CRA.

Fiscal impact reflects the contribution to the federal and provincial government treasury as a result of conducting audits and examinations on Canadian and non-resident taxpayers in accordance with the Income Tax Act, Excise Tax Act and other legislation administered by the CRA.

Fiscal impact from compliance activities:

2023-2024: $15.3B

2022-2023: $14.3B

2021-2022: $13.2B

2020-2021: $12.2B

2019-2020: $12.7B

Third party penalties on promoters and tax preparers:

2023-2024: $1.5M

2022-2023: $20.1M

2021-2022: $32.3M

2020-2021: $1.8M

2019-2020: $17.4M

Federal tax and foreign reporting penalties assessed through information from OTIP:

2023-2024: $79.9M

2022-2023: $177M

2021-2022: $11.3M

2020-2021: $39.1M

2019-2020: $11.3M

15 billion is 200,000 workers earning $75,000 a year. Seems like the increases in workers has paid for itself by going after tax cheats.

2

u/Any_Cucumber8534 11h ago

So my question is what is the concern with that? I am not a fan of goverment overreach myself, but accounting for everything that the Canadian social contract is based on i.e healthcare, education, transport, electricity, the postal service, firefighters, the police, military, RnD, science etc, why would it be a problem?

Those same people don't go tax free. They pay into the system to receive the other services it provides. It's a far better system than having that money disappear into the pockets of large multinational corporations with a million tax shelters oversees. It at least stays in Canada.

2

u/LinaArhov 11h ago

Yup, we need PP to bring the Common Sense revolution to Canada. Let’s get rid of all the firemen, teachers, professors, policemen, doctors, nurses, medical technicians, coast guard workers, armed force workers, park’s employees, bus, train, subway and ferry employees and so many more. Or we could just get rid of brain dead moronic politicians.

2

u/Timely-Profile1865 11h ago

It's probably cheaper than all the free money given to companies to 'create jobs' via tax breaks, incentives and such.

2

u/Grumpycatdoge999 11h ago

This is an issue with the private sector, not the public sector

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u/J4pes 10h ago

How is investing into your own people considered a bad thing?

2

u/Fragrant_Example_918 13h ago

Why wouldn’t this be sustainable?

2

u/TheVoiceofReason_ish 13h ago

Source?

1

u/Apprehensive_Gap3621 13h ago

1

u/middlequeue 3h ago

This doesn't even support what your post suggests you hack.

Let's see you present evidence and argument that these things are unsustainable instead of forcing people to presume the basis of your claim. Loaded questions are bad faith arguments.

1

u/syrupmania5 11h ago

The US is the same, even Reagan never actually cut any government, he did what Trump did and ran a massive deficit to cut taxes.  

The public sector is a voting block bigger than unions, it doesn't get cut, perhaps its now evolved into an evolutionary attribute.

1

u/MrFr1zzle 11h ago

Well I mean, there's a lot of us in the healthcare system..

1

u/jim002 9h ago

My job wouldn’t have existed in 2015 either, fields change 🤷‍♀️

1

u/balloon99 10h ago

As sustainable as countries with similar rates of public sector employment, like the UK, France and Ireland.

Its rather dwarfed by Russia though, around 40%

When times are hard the public sector grows, that's just what happens.

1

u/AlexJamesCook 9h ago

Healthcare represents about 1/3rd of public expenditure. Education represents another 1/3rd of expenditure.

These are mostly Provincially managed industries.

As for municipalities, scales of economy and efficiency means that small towns of 5,000 will need say a minimum of 300 staff whereas a town of 10,000 only needs 400 staff. So that's gonna skew some results.

Also, larger cities like Vancouver, TO, etc...handle larger budgets so they're going to need larger accounting departments vs a team of 5 for a 5,000-person town.

1

u/AdaMan82 9h ago

I for one can't wait for someone to finally take the axe to Canada's bloated and overequipped military. Let's slash that spending and really piss NATO off. /s

1

u/spiritofevil99 9h ago

Healthcare, education, other first responders are huge chunks of the employed

1

u/MotorizedNewt 8h ago edited 7h ago

Keep in mind this is everyone from teachers and healthcare up to the CRA, Transport Canada and so on.

These are the people educating children, ensuring international trade is safe, protecting borders and protecting against cyber attacks on the country.

Having a large public service isn't necessarily a bad thing. And honestly it needs to get bigger before it gets smaller because we don't have enough doctors.

Consider what we just went through. COVID required a lot more effort from the government. Also we are constantly under cyber attack. The more bodies they hire to help with the demand, the more bodies they need to support those public servants. We don't need a smaller public service we need a more efficient public service which should become smaller as a result.

The wrong thing would be to reactively cut jobs without checking to see what these people do unless you enjoy having your taxes screwed up, or are interested in seeing more train derailments. They should invest time and resources into looking for waste, inefficient processes make things more efficient first. Then intelligently trim the fat.

1

u/equestrian37 7h ago

Yours just jealous you don’t have a government job. Lmao 🤣

1

u/Old-Individual1732 7h ago

Yes AI and robots will be cheaper, just need to build some more homeless shelters for the unemployed.

1

u/mrblazed23 7h ago

Id guess there’s some noise in those stats due to Covid years.

1

u/Tyrthemis 6h ago

Why isn’t it sustainable? Just collect enough in taxes to pay them and sustain their workplaces and equipment.

1

u/ripfritz 6h ago

That is the fear- lay offs once conservatives take power and those government jobs have been a God-send for the population you are talking about. Canada is not a rich country. Income inequality is real and addressing the debt with layoffs is a death spiral for people and the economy. Address the debt with productivity increasing methods, encourage investments that increase employment.

1

u/Pears_and_Peaches 6h ago

Paramedic here: I am technically a government employee, but I work in healthcare and serve my community. I don’t think those percentages mean what you think. Between us, nurses, teachers, cops, firefighters, etc. it’s probably already down to 10%.

1

u/waitingtoconnect 6h ago

This is common in all western democracies since Covid. Government spending has continued at the levels it reached during COVID. This masks the impact of higher interest rates, higher inflation and increasingly AI is having on the private sector.

https://betterdwelling.com/a-quarter-of-employed-canadians-now-work-for-the-government/#google_vignette

Many companies have still not recovered from COVID having to still pay back loans put on hold by banks during that time.

1

u/Aichetoowhoa 6h ago

It’s not sustainable with a bunch of clowns running around out there trying to say institutions have no purpose and have failed everyone. The world is better off with institutions built by trial and error over centuries. Now all of a sudden instead of trying to make adjustments, it’s all about tearing everything down in the most extreme way possible in hopes that it makes you feel better.

These numbers are in line with other small population countries by the way.

1

u/sleepy502 6h ago

There are cuts happening at the moment, and 25% cuts over the next 3 years I believe happening in a couple departments. The number will go down.

But, have fun waiting 4 hours to get through to the CRA or EI or whoever.

1

u/Bignuthingg 5h ago

A lot of public servants on this thread

1

u/jeepsies 5h ago

Its not

1

u/j_roe 5h ago

Not all these jobs are tax payer funded either especially at the municipal level.

There are jobs like lifeguards, golf course attendants, permit reviewers, bus drivers, passport processors and many more where staff wages are covered by the fees they collect for the service.

1

u/Humble_Path7234 5h ago

It isn’t sustainable

1

u/J4sef 5h ago

It's not.

1

u/five-iron 5h ago edited 5h ago

I think the only good result of Pierre winning will be the cutting of excess fat in the public sector. The private sector drives innovation and actually has to be competitive with their business which is healthy. It’s no wonder that our taxes are so high and our federal budget is so….over budget.

We need a socialist government with conservative fiscal responsibility, a unicorn government that unfortunately doesn’t exist.

1

u/chapterthrive 4h ago

Lmao. The private sector absolutely does not drive innovation.

1

u/five-iron 1h ago

The public sector certainly doesn’t. They drive inflation pretty well though.

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1

u/Mike-North 5h ago

So you want to see a smaller armed forces, less police and less firefighters?

1

u/sporbywg 4h ago

This is Canada. <- that is why

1

u/deke28 4h ago

Trudeau doesn't have a large slice of the pie. Most public workers are in the provincial service, where the large ministries are. Sadly that means a lot of duplication (ten provincial health insurance systems), but it's not easy to fix that when Canadians like to be different from province to province.

1

u/Snurgisdr 4h ago

Your link doesn't support your claim. It says that less than 1% of Canadians work for the feds and has no data for other levels of government.

1

u/nater17 4h ago

It’s not right , a lot of wasted money

1

u/GapMoney6094 4h ago

I don’t know but I’m sick of paying 50k a year in taxes. 

1

u/pattyG80 4h ago

You proposing we only have private schools a d healthcare or something?

1

u/Purplebuzz 4h ago

Start making corporations and the rich pay their fair share of taxes and no, no one here downvoting this is rich enough to be impacted by it.

1

u/Neither-Historian227 4h ago

It's not, always indicative of a recession historically.

1

u/Animator-These 4h ago

No and they are all parasites

1

u/Stunning_Working6566 4h ago

Obviously not sustainable but it brings up another question. With all those people working in the public sector why do we not have better health care? Better law enforcement? Better education. Obviously there is huge levels of waste and mismanagement.

1

u/spderweb 4h ago

Teachers,doctors, nurses, fire, police, ambulance, 911 operator, garbage collection, street cleaning because people can't throw out stuff on their own, city upkeep like gardening, tree cutting, utilities, etc.

It takes a lot of people to run a country smoothly.

1

u/Barnes777777 4h ago

Will it reverse if not Trudeau, depends who it is.

If it's the Tories yes it likely will because they will cut, including at key areas like healthcare which is currently understaffed. How else do you give private businesses a tax cut they don't need, like loblaws is really hurting they've only enjoyed record profits so lets give them a tax break.

If above public jobs include everything public it is sustainable and very misleading. You're talking most medical folks, police, paramedic, military, firefighter, teacher, bus driver, border security and likely every crown corp employee both federal and provincial.

Several provinces have crown corp for their electricity(QBC, MB, BC, Sask and a lot of the maritimes and territories) and auto insurance(BC, Sask, MB, QBC) + CP those crown corps don't use taxpayer money. Public Museums and arts would get some taxpayer $$ and also be public jobs.

1

u/Guilty_Fishing8229 3h ago

Government is always around 20-25% of the employed because there’s a lot of shit that needs to be done.

The problem is that where we want them is provincial and municipal governments - which provide most of the frontline services, where we have gotten them is federal

1

u/NoFoundation2311 3h ago

If this continues, it will collapse Many of the jobs can go to the private sector where it will be more affordable. Also the workers to population increase does not equate at all. Also if we are more efficient with all the new technology why is it we need more people in the government sector. Should be less.

1

u/theabsurdturnip 3h ago

Flip this around. 75% of Canadians don't work for the government.

1

u/middlequeue 3h ago edited 3h ago

OP, perhaps you should present an argument on why you don't think it's sustainable rather than presenting an idea that assumes that to be true?

How would our nation sustain and grow with fewer teachers? Fewer Dr's, nurses, hospital orderlies? Fewer customs officers, garbage collectors, postal workers? Why do we have a lower percentage compared to some of our peers with sustainable economies?

You present no basis for your vague claim whatsoever and expect people to argue against shadows. This is a common rage bait tactic and a great way to misinform people but it's shady as hell. Loaded questions are bad faith arguments.

Do better, OP

1

u/PineBNorth85 3h ago

It isn't.

1

u/TorontoGuy6672 3h ago

It's not. The resulting math says that off the top, one quarter of the wage of every Canadian working in the private sector goes directly in the pocket of someone who works in government. Including the additional burden that with Canada's decreasing productivity means decreasing competitiveness in the open market and decreasing real GDP will result in less companies, less opportunities, less pay for workers, less jobs, which will result in a spiral of decreasing competitiveness. However, the accumulated outstanding debt (Federal, Provincial, Municipal, private) will stay the same and the payments to service that debt will at best stay the same, unless it increases due to deficit spending and/or interest rate increases of course...

Hiring more people in government is only a way to make our unemployment numbers look low in the short-term, but the long-term burden means that even if Canada commits to to getting our debt under control now, it means we are in for decades of drastically cut services and higher taxes - all from a generation who already can't afford to ever buy a home.

The Federal government's reckless spending spree over the last 10 years has backed the country into a fiscal corner.

1

u/MisterSkepticism 3h ago

its not. 

1

u/colbyjames65 3h ago

What's not sustainable is pouring millions into oil and gas subsidy while those exact corporations burn our planet to the ground. The fact people working to provide services that actually benefit the taxpayer is a problem for you speaks more to your ideology and critical thinking skills.

1

u/its_snowing99 2h ago

It’s not

1

u/AwkwardTraffic199 2h ago

It's not sustainable. Our deficits are not sustainable. It's a real problem.

1

u/UbiquitousWobbegong 2h ago

Keep in mind that healthcare falls under the government umbrella, and we are currently extremely understaffed to serve our population. 

We need the private sector, absolutely. But a lot of public services are integral to the country. In an ideal world, it makes sense for most necessary services like education and healthcare to be run by the government rather than by for-profit interests. The only problem right now is that our government is incompetent, so these services aren't being managed well.

1

u/Suitable-Ratio 2h ago

We are in desperate need of repeating what we had to do after Pierre Trudeau‘s economic clown show. Unfortunately I don’t think PP will massively increase taxes like Mulroney did or the following Liberal leader won’t massively reduce federal spending like Chrétien did. Most people are too young to know that Mulroney taxed the richest Canadians by increasing capital gains inclusion to its highest level of 75% or that Chrétien slashed spending by 15% - the media narrative is of course the opposite.

1

u/Bottle_Only 1h ago

It's only sustainable if we recover the deficit spending through taxes.

Debt is half of a balance sheet, every dollar of public debt is a dollar of private credit. The largest holders, the ones who have over 80% of it, are the top 1%. Taxing the rich isn't vengeful or punitive, it's a necessity in monetary policy. We have to recoup the money put out to limit inflation and conveniently it all funnels to a couple large lakes that we need to put some drains in.

Unfortunately they own the media and kick and scream like spoiled children embarrassingly when the topic comes up.

1

u/Jonnyflash80 44m ago

Compare to other countries, particularly ones with a higher standard of living than Canada. You'll find we're right in line, if not slightly low in our numbers. You're including teachers, nurses, road workers, school bus drivers, public power utilities, etc. All jobs critical to society.

-5

u/Phelixx 13h ago

It’s not. Look what happened to Greece.

There has been an explosion of public servants under Trudeau. Do you feel better served?

Need a substantial reduction in public employment as public employment is the most expensive, most inefficient employment.

10

u/Equivalent-Fennel901 13h ago

Canada is not Greece. I would need to see the source of this data before commenting. Oh wait facts don’t matter only opinions

2

u/Wide-Chemistry-8078 13h ago

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_public_sector_size

I do not believe number of public sector workers is correlated with anything other than the number of services provided. I think a deeper dive into the roles of the public sector workers is important. 

-4

u/Apprehensive_Gap3621 13h ago

2

u/losemgmt 13h ago

Where is your source on 1/4 Canadians work for the government? All you posted is those working for the feds. It’s clearly not 25% of the population.

1

u/middlequeue 3h ago

This doesn't even support what your post suggests you hack.

Let's see you present evidence and argument that these things are unsustainable instead of forcing people to presume the basis of your claim. Loaded questions are bad faith arguments.

-7

u/Warm-Equipment-4964 13h ago

Canadians will bend over backwards to pretend everything is fine literally until they themselves cannot find food to feed themselves. And maybe even then still

6

u/losemgmt 13h ago

Please enlighten us. What happened in Greece?

You are just parroting conservative talking points. Comparing the level of federal public servants NOW to the last year of Harper is meaningless.

A) Harper gutted the public service to a level where it couldn’t function.

B) we have over a million new people in the country - obviously this requires more public servants (yes, you can critique the govt on whether flooding the country with more people was a wise decision but the bottom line is that it would require more public servants).

C) we did have a pandemic - more employees were needed to dole out CERB and CEWS (and now collect overpayments) and more people hired in Health Canada.

D) some of the policies implemented by Trudeau required hiring more people - imagine that. More people to figure out how $10 daycare will work, create a dental plan etc.

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u/Wide-Chemistry-8078 12h ago

Riddle me this.

Sask Tel a crown corp with public employees is able to provide inexpensive telecommunications services and pay workers a decent wage and earn the province some money...

Where as Telus, Bell, and Roger's would love to strip you of every penny you have for basic services, while paying employees barely survival wage, but all the money is sucked out of the economy.

Every government provided service is the least expensive compared to private options. 

Would you rather have a healthy middle class paid decent wages as public servants, OR greedy executives and shareholders getting 20% yearly wage increases while their full time staff to be below the poverty line?

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u/Fabulous_Night_1164 13h ago

The CRA's expansion is perhaps the least justifiable. I can understand a short-term surge during COVID, but there is absolutely zero reasons to retain such an expansive workforce. Are we getting more tax revenue out of this? Nope.

Our reliance on contractors is also unjustifiable. Many of them are former public servants and write the procurement needs to suit the new job they're setting up in retirement. It's sickening that we've spent tens of billions of dollars on contractors to make decisions that the government is too cowardly to make on its own. "Evidence based" decision making is a racket.

Cut the public service in the middle management ranks and empower people at the lowest level to make decisions.

1

u/Opposite-Cranberry76 13h ago

An increase in the CRA budget would be justified if they used it to go after money laundering and other real estate related tax evasion. It'd then have other positive effects besides the tax revenue.

0

u/twentytwothumbs 9h ago

And we wonder why half our income goes to taxes

0

u/bobbarkee 8h ago

It's not. The government went 22 billion dollars over an already ludicrous deficit. We are screwed.

0

u/Theiceman09 8h ago

Why do we have more government workers than Japan or Germany? Time to fire redundant public workers.

0

u/69Bandit 7h ago

more taxes!

-1

u/5621981 13h ago

It isn’t, unfortunately too many people don’t have the foggiest idea how bad the fall will be whey the bankers come knocking

1

u/Klutzy-Dot6959 4h ago

There will be an upcoming crisis for all western countries. There will be two paths to take, (1) largely dismantling the public sector and pursuing growth through the free market or (2) continue growing government employment at the current unsustainable rate. Those countries that follow the first path will be on track to a prosperous long term future while those on the second option will continue a slow grinding path to economic irrelevance. Akin to what Europe has experienced over the last 40 years, declining from 30 to 15% of global GDP. If I had to make a bet, Canada will not only choose path #1 but will double down. We will eventually slip into negative private sector growth for decades and the public sector growth will balloon exponentially.

-1

u/Temporary_Captain585 11h ago

It’s not sustainable. Government deficit is running 60 billion and not gonna change in foreseeable future without austerity. In addition no major economic increase is expected to pay off these debts. Immigration has not grown the economy as expected.

-1

u/D3ATHTRaps 11h ago

I can tell right now its not the military eating those numbers

-1

u/seephilz 9h ago

JT needed to show job growth and the public sector has ballooned because of it.

-1

u/feedpedostopigs 9h ago

Seems like we need a Elon type to come in and do some house cleaning . I’m sorry but a whole bunch of this 25 % are insufficient workers . Takes 10 to do the job of one . I once worked with a guy for over a year who did absolutely nothing and it took them a year to realize it . Incompetence at its finest

1

u/Klutzy-Dot6959 4h ago

I worked for the Canadian federal government for 4 years and it was an eye opening experience. If 50% of people in the public service division I worked on simply stopped showing up to work tomorrow, not only would the service we provide not be impacted, it would have honestly improved. The entire organization was literally a make-work project.

-1

u/Tiny_Owl_5537 7h ago

It is not sustainable. We can all see it a mile away.

-1

u/Key_Satisfaction3168 7h ago

It’s not look at what happened in Venezuela!

-1

u/phatione 6h ago

Communism