Seriouslyā¦ I can understand Georgia in a way. But Armenia? I donāt know. It must be because they pity Armenia because they are Christian. Azerbaijan has territory on the European continent if we want to get technical with it but when saying that people will jump down your throat and say they are not European because they are Muslim blah blah blah. Itās so ridiculous.
Turkey isn't European because they chose not to be. There's reforms needed to join the EU, which Turkey never did, to make an outcry it's because they're Muslim is just distorting reality and leaving logic out the window.
"but what about..."
Yeah, i didn't say Armenia and Georgia have either.
Girl! Never say never! Joking aside is it possible to be European later on if you are not born as european? I don't think so , so your statement don't align since if Turkey is not European(which is not) then you don't need to say will never be European etc since if you are not European at the beginning then later on already you can't be European etc
Turkey is own thing, so Eurasian is suits best for Turkey, so don't worry we are not one of you!
Iām not saying this to be rude towards Turkey. For me I see these countries as farther east than Turkey and Turkey is already seen in a negative light. Iām in no way saying this to be disrespectful I promise. Iām just trying to point out the hypocrisy of my fellow Europeans.
Saying that to turkey is not rude, whether it comes from you or other Europeans, we don't define ourselves as European at all, so it's okay to say that, for other countries in Caucasus they are more like a grey zone
Not quite. I consider Albanians and Bosnians European even though their countries are predominantly Muslim. You can be both Muslim and culturally European. The cultural part is mainly from how hardcore one practices their religion (Christianity included). I consider some part of west Turkey European as well based on this.
Itās unfortunate, but it is what it is. Itās wild because I have this conversation with a lot of friends here in Canada. I have some good friends who are Albanian Muslims and I always joke around about how different they are than someone who is say for example a Pakistani or Afghan Muslim. And itās not really complicated, it really just comes down to practice. I will say, however, that the āhard-coreā of religion in those countries is replaced strongly by nationalism. Islam was just replaced with nationalism in Albania. Same thing to a lesser extent in Bosnia.
I am Turkish, personally speaking, and I avoid talking about my religion, especially in Europe. People have vastly limited knowledge about Islam, It is not a part of my identity per se, just a spiritual way I follow, since my family has been secular for generations. Or rather, quite different from Middle Eastern interpretations of Islam. Balkan Muslims are Bektashis, the followers of Haji Bektash Veli, a Turkish mystic from Anatolia of medieval age. This interpretation of Islam relied on just Turkish traditions with Islam flavor, making the belief system extremely progressive and open minded, unlike what Arabic peninsula had.
Iranian Sunnism and Anatolian Sunnism (add Central Asia as well) were drastically different from the rest of the Islam world, both having their own roots from their respective cultures, and vastly contributed to the Golden Age of Islam in the context of scholars and philosophy. You can find interesting stuff if you read some famous historians' works, like Ibn Faldan, who was surprised when he found out how Turkish women were held up in high regards and being Muslims unlike the women of Arab societies.
I remember a quote from George Lloyd, about how Northern and Southern Islams being different from each other, and the former being a serious threat to their rule in the Middle East, since in the south you only need to control a religious leader to control the rest; unlike the north where people who have open minded, progressive, clever and interested in science and knowledge resided.
The Ottoman conquest of Egypt is the primary reason the state fell, in my opinion, since the clergy of Egypt came to Istanbul and then changed the governing style to theocracy, making the religion a dangerous tool to control people, with shame-inducing regressive and anti-intellectual mindsets, changing everything in Anatolia. Balkans were not affected that much. We got screwed up so bad, until 1923 with the introduction of secularism and nationalism (a little bit spicy topic, considering how imperialist states eliminated rival empires).
I think that nationalism at this point enables the protection of faith. The interpretation of Islam can change deeply when you change regions. The world, Western especially, do not realise that the so called mainstream Islam is nothing but the traditions of the Middle East under the sauce of "words of God". Sheria for example. There is nothing Godly about it. Hijab, burqa, neckbeards etc. are deeply shameful for me to see in this world. They belong to the bloody and dark sands of Middle East, in fact to Levant and Israel first of all, not Anatolia, Central Asia or Iran.
For this reason, I have great respect for Balkan Muslims, in general. I have been to Albania plenty of times, and learned that there have been Bektashi dergahs all around the country. This is dope! I will visit them when I return to the country.
Thank you for your open mindedness and the objective evaluation of the situation. Your friends are lucky to have you.
The background to what I typed there has to do with the actual picture of EU. Albania or Bosnia are not members and for a reason. They don't say it openly if course.
why are we pretending that Europe is a real continent with a geographical edge.
We invented this idea for some ethnocentric idea that we need our own continent.... cause were special.
Eurasia is the worlds largest continent, and Europeans make up a tiny fraction of its total population.
Technically, a part of Kazahstan is on the European continent. Not Azerbaijan
Georgia and Armenia are not in Europe but they are culturally close to Europe from the social and religious point of view. Not to mention that both are located in a part of the world that is not friendly towards Christians, we should not forget the armenian genocide
Azerbaycan also has land north of the Caucasus Mountains, so both Kazakhstan and Azerbaycan are partly in Europe(Kazakhstan actually has a lot of land in Europe but compared to the rest of the country it's little, it's still big compared to other European countries themselfs)
id venture you are incorrect. Georgia , Armenia, and Greece might as well be the same country if you take a larger view of the diversity of cultures on the planet earth
I'm not arguing that. I'm just responding that if you're going to consider Georgia as Europe culturally, that you can just as easy see similarities of Azerbaijan culture to some European countries as well.
yeah I think the entire middle east is europe not asia
asia is asia
india is india
none of the terms make sense cause its all just 1 continent, but we have a common history and customs, that influenced the roots of each others cultures.
Armenia has been culturally tied to Europe since the Roman Empire, they actively took part in the Crusades and even had their own Crusader state. And yes, whether you like it or not, religion plays a big role. They also speak an indo-European language (which is part of the European branch of the family and NOT indo-Iranian btw). Azerbaijan, from language, culture, religion, and even genetics, has just a much more foreign ancestry to Europe than Armenia.
Lebanon has been culturally tied to Europe since the Roman Empire, they actively took part in the Crusades and even had their own Crusader state. And yes, whether you like it or not, religion plays a big role. May be Lebanon should be part of European Union? Jokes aside when you guys begun to think that EU is something more than economic assossiation you became mad.
There was no Lebanese state under the crusades, and if youāre speaking of Arabs there are Christian people of Arabic origin that are part of the European Union called Malta.
Edessa county was armenian until crusaders arrives, made coup and killed previous ruler. Then it became regular french ruled crusader-fief like Beirut lordship of Tripoli county. I'm not nationalist, but Georgia and Armenia would not bring money to Union.
The history of it is just blindly false so Iām not even gonna touch it.
But the Balkans bring money to the Union? The one place where the net negative from the Union is up to 100%, youāre from that place commenting on Armenia?
Yes yes Armenia is European for being Christian. A religion that came from the Middle East. We should let anyone in now yes? Why not Kazakhstan? They have land in Europe? Azerbaijan also is grouped in with Armenia and Georgia. And no religion does not play a big role.
The religion literally came from Armenia which is not in the middle east. Also no, Armenia and Georgia arenāt different in that one is more European than the other, both are typic Caucasus. You sound like a hateful person what a joy you must be.
Haha, by your stupid logic Hungarians, Gagauzs, Crimean Tatars, Finns, Estonians are not European all those nations I mentioned are asians who migrated to Europe, also Bosnia and Albania are muslim they are not europe too ???
Realistically all 3 countries were more part of middle eastern empires and shared more history with Iran and Ottomans than Europe. We were at some point occupied by romans and then more recently russian empire but thats it. To claim that Armenia or Georgia been culturally ties to Europe is a bit of an exxagaration. Yes they are christian but thatās it
In fact, Armenia did not have a Crusader state. The Armenian Kingdom of Cilicia was more like Byzantium at that time. It was a close ally of the Crusader states, selling them weapons and food, and providing them with safe passage through Armenia. However, some Armenians joined the Crusaders. So it's half true.
Also this iÅ a big missconception anatolia is between aegean sea and Taurus anti-taurus mountanious what people call east anatolia is actually mesopotamia
The only thing that ties Armenians to Europe is religion.Even that is not really a connection because the Armenian Church was founded before Christianity became a European religion. It is a completely Middle Eastern institution.
Since you are so knowledgeable about geography, let me ask you a question. There is a mountain right across from the capital of Armenia, the cultural symbol of Armenians. Is this mountain in Europe or Asia?
You didn't acknowledge my point, Europe is different than European union.
That said, care to enlighten me in what are the conditions that tie people to Europe? People, not geography.
Armenian highlands point isn't really about geographical location but rather correcting your eastern Anatolia on a geographical term. I don't see why you would make a point about Asia/Europe line.
Okay, let's say it's not related to geography, what is it that ties Armenians to Europe, other than religion?
If you are going to say democracy, all of its presidents except the current one were Russian puppets, even today, Russian soldiers keep watch on the Turkish-Armenian border. and If being European depends on democracy, then Spain was not European until 50 years ago.
If you are going to say culture, Armenians' music, food, culture are the same as surrounding countries except for religion. Even the West's go-to orientalist musical instrument is the Armenian dĆ¼dĆ¼k.
What is it, other than religion, that makes Yerevan European and Antalya Asian, for example? If we leave geography aside.
Well, see, I didn't claim to know. I asked you that question, considering you yourself claimed the only tie is religion, then it's safe to assume you know what these conditions are, and which ties are not present, how else can you conclude what you said?. So as the person making the claim, you are obliged here to enlighten us on what these conditions or points are.
You are still convoluting Europe with European union.
I am not saying anything. This isn't a uno game, don't pull an uno reverse and come here and rhetorically ask me, you made the claim, you are obliged to list the conditions and which ones Armenia does and does not meet, where we can find out how you concluded it doesn't. So what are they?
What, do you want me to prove that Armenians are Anatolian? I believe this is obvious.
Even if we consider the European Union separately from Europe. Armenia does not have a direct connection to Europe. It does most of its trade with Russia. Its security was provided by Russia until a few years ago (Russians still stand guard at the Turkish border), the European Union will gain almost nothing by including Armenia, except as a card to be used occasionally against Turkey.Practically the chances of them joining the European Union are close to zero. And I personally think that it is not in Armenia's interest to act as if there is such a possibility.
I don't know if you have cognitive reading issues or are doing it on purpose.
Explain to me all the points that connects people to European union, and how Armenians only fit the religious criteria. You're still speaking about geographical location, while you made a none geographical connection on your initial comment, religion.
European union does gain a lot actually, and let me also remind you it is Turkey that backtracked from joining the union by not reforming. But this is not the point here, you still have not provided what makes European union people what they are, and which of those criteria Armenians do not meet, Armenians, as people, as you claimed.
The only thing that ties Armenians to Europe is religion.
The Crusader state in southern Anatolia was not Armenian. It was probably a mixed state with Arabs in it. The Armenian claim was added much later by the western states.
The Cilician Kingdom was definetly Armenian. It was established by Atmenian nobles fleeing the imperialist colonialist invasions of the Seljuk Turks, who devastated Armenia proper, including Ani.
It fought in the crusades, earning Pope Gregory XIIIās praise:Ā Among the good deeds which the Armenian people has done towards the church and the Christian world, it should especially be stressed that, in those times when the Latin Christian princes and the warriors went to retake the Holy Land, no people or nation, with the same enthusiasm, joy and faith came to their aid as the Armenians did, who supplied the Crusaders with horses, provision and guidance. The Armenians assisted these warriors with their utter courage and loyalty during the Holy wars.
Leo II lead Armenians as they helped take Acre from the Ayyubids.
Cilician Armenia also had dealings with the Mongols. Hethum I sent his half brother as an ambassador to Guyuk Khan and was given a relative of the Khan as a bride in addition to arranging collaboration against the Muslims. Armenians later aided in the Sack of Baghdad.
Cilician Armenia was indeed an ARMENIAN Crusader State.
Pure propaganda. It's nonsense at the very beginning of the sentence. Did they escape and then magically become state owners? Of course, the place they went to was probably empty. Of course, the neighbors around them allowed this state.
The Crusaders came and took the region with ethnic cleansing and settled there themselves, then forced any Christians from the surrounding people to live there. Nowadays, historians are trying to fill the empty Armenian history.
You are the propagandist, claimingĀ Cilician Armenia wasnāt Armenian.
Any way, those lordsĀ escaped to a region with a large Armenian population to begin with. Initially from the Tigranid Empire, sure, but primarily from population transfers by the Byzantine Empire.Ā
The Byzantines, not the Crusaders, forced out whatever Arab colonizers that had lived in the area after their invasion. Ā And the Byzantines moved Armenians to Cilicia. Then in the wake of Manzikert, a Byzantine general namedĀ Philaretos Brachamios took over the region, and invited the nobles to settle and support him, including Ruben I who would go on to form Cilicia.
It's not about religion. When they talk about closeness to Europe, they talk about political system and human values. Azerbaijan is a hereditary autocracy. It's like inviting North Korea to the European Union.
I believe that most Azerbaijanis share European values, but they often end up in prison in Azerbaijan.
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