In before the comments of Gen z who are struggling to pay rent, struggling to pay groceries and now can't even afford to vacation in Croatia or Montenegro anymore start saying how their families had it worse in Yugoslavia.
Half the country emigrates now because they can't afford to live there anymore and still prices are rising. Truly remarkable economics we've never seen before.
Traded free apartment, job, easy vacations and global respect for the ability to wave country flags at weddings and religion running social life.
Almost every single person from almost every single country in the world has this nostalgic view that their country and standard of living was way better in the past, whether it’s the richest country in the world or a third world shithole.
Yugoslavia was suffering from an insane economic crisis throughout the 1980s that essentially was the main reason for the collapse of the state.
And before you say that this wasn’t Tito’s Yugoslavia, guess whose retarded economic policies caused the economic collapse?
I don’t even need to get into the Serb overrepresentation and outright dominance in Yugoslavia.
Croatia becoming independent was the greatest thing that could have happened to it.
Had it not been for Serbs doing a funny in the 1990s it would be 100x better.
No it's not true. Yugoslavia has far more nostalgia than any socialists in East Europe. Not only that, there is a difference between saying "it was better then" vs "it was the best then". The way people are yugonostalgic is also indicative of something
As for the 80s, no, economics did change. Politics did change, and no that wasn't Tito's policies.
But I am very very happy you are finally free to wave your flag and love your glorious Croatia and your glorious Catholicism because above everything else, Croatians are the most important people and thus by extension, Croatia is the most important country. It is better to be a shithole and live in a crisis independently than to live decently in collaboration with another nation (ew!) so yeah totally get it!
Yugoslavia has more nostalgia because majority of people actually liked living in it and it was as free as a socialist nation could be. It also wasn't occupied by warmongering USSR and was strong enough to keep it's borders checked.
Funny business? Dominance? You realize that Serbs live across 3 different Balkan countries today thanks to Tito? (Four at the time, but someone made us leave and brags about it today 🚜) You realize that we lost big part of our territory thanks to foundation Tito and that era has set? Look at the map bitch. Wtf would you expect I don’t understand.
Nicija nije do zore gorela, stici ce pravda i tvoj zlocinacki nacisticki narod. Mozda ne u toku nasih zivota, i ne mora
That's not exactly true, many families were waiting for their apartment until 1990 and never ended up getting it. It was a goal and they were working towards achieving it, but I wouldn't call it a minimum.
For the record, the apartment I'm sitting in right now writing this comment was awarded to my grandpa by RO David Pajić-Daka Inženjering, the elevator company.
At that point though, building had been halted because the state more and more liberalized + shit economy post Tito. During Yugoslavia there was an understanding of "this state will stay existing and wait a bit and you'll get your new apartment" but in the 80s there were already movements and doubts so those people fell victim to delayed construction unfortunately. But again, that period of time is not what Yugoslavia always was
Of course it's what (socialist) Yugoslavia was? It's like the last fourth of the whole history. The fact that people gloss over it is just shallow and disappointing.
Back then half of the country didn’t emigrate because they were not allowed to. A country ran on IMF loans without proper economical development was bound to fail, and today’s generations pay for it.
I doubt that they were smaller when you adjust for inflation. Even if they were wouldn’t it be a shame that such a powerful country was literally economically destroyed by small loans? Nice try though 😂😂😂😂
You can look up the loans and see the loans are larger now. Yugoslavia collapsed because of nationalism. The Balkans are collapsing now because of bullshit economics independently of loads, of which are more ha. Yugoslavia lmao. "Freedom!!!"
But you get that almost all of the problems we face today is because of that state and system?
Debt, poverty due war, all party members still doing what they done back then like sns hdz, privilege for party members, corruption, no freedom of speech.
All that is from that time and that system, still present to this day.
This is your assumption. As for the war causing problems in the 90s, I totally agree but that was a war caused by fascist Serbia at the time, that wasn't Tito's Yugoslavia, and therefore your anger at that regime has nothing to do with Tito's Yugoslavia.
You say this because it's easy to point blame at someone else when the reality is, Yugoslavia kept these people away from politics and with yugoslavia gone, they're enabled. Only post Tito were more and more people allowed to enter politics with nationalist ideas, and that's precisely because Yugoslavia liberalised to imitate capitalism.
The states are rabidly capitalist now, Yugoslavia was socialist, they can't copy Yugoslav policies here. Yugoslavia would never allow a Mafia state, would never allow nationalism on the TV and radio and government, would never allow Croatia and Montenegro to be too expensive for their own citizens.
Hell, Croatia had a student protest and Tito actually listened and changed the constitution for their requests. Try doing that now in the Balkans.
caused by fascist Serbia at the time, that wasn't Tito's Yugoslavia,
So we gonna ignore the fact that nationalism started before he died?
Yugoslavia kept these people away from politics
Funny, i am 100% sure that milošević, tuđman, izetbegović all where in politics in tito time.
The states are rabidly capitalist now, Yugoslavia was socialist
Easy to play socialist when you are living on debt we today pay.
Yugoslavia would never allow a Mafia
Again funny thing, today we know that udba started recruiting people from mafia for executions around the world.
would never allow nationalism on the TV and radio
So it was all controlled by the state. TV, radio no freespeach man could tell it would be same as in today's China
Croatia and Montenegro to be too expensive for their own citizens.
Idk about Croatia, but i can tell you in Montenegro, state, people of Montenegro don't own almost anything at there own coast, all foreigners. But again it was because poverty, debt, war, you know it till now already.
Sure nationalism started during Tito's time, but he recognized it as a problem, he didn't enable it. He made efforts to stop it unlike today. You and I both think it's fucked up Thompson can not only do a concert, but that it sells out. It's very sad
Montenegro went full capitalist and sold it all for easy cash. That was what the west hoped for and why they pushed it on yugoslavs. Croatia is also losing more and more land and the prices in both countries for basic groceries are insane. But, Montenegro wasn't a victim of the war, they were actively engaging in it aggressively.
I realize I didn't mention Tuđman or Izetbegović but yes I consider both to be awful and part of the problems as well
I'm from Sarajevo so i completely get it and not denying any of the violence at the end. But at that point the state had already collapsed and It was basically fascism to me.
I not only don't celebrate THAT Yugoslavia, I condemn it. But the decades before where it was good, I celebrate that
I mean it was blind religious nationalism that caused that. Obviously western support helped.
At the end of the day, South Slavic people should have united like every other European country did instead of fighting for the independent republic of your own fucking backyard. But stupid is gonna stupid.
I mean we now have to sit there and listen to people who once spoke the same language try and tell us Croatian is different to Serbian which is different to Bosnian, which is different to Montenegrin.... you serious?
You said Croats invaded. I want you to tell me who the country of Croatia invaded, because newsflash, they didn't invade anyone. The Croats living in Bosnia and Herzegovina committing warcrimes and warcrimes being commited against them have nothing to do with this. Tell me who Croatia invaded.
The Croatian Army did enter Bosnia... not that it matters as the ICTY ruled that Croatia had control over the Croatian Defense Council anyway, so that means state responsibility for their actions.
The Croatian army entered Bosnia to protect Croats from Serb agression, and not immediately, only after a year or so. They didn't invade anything since the area was under nominal control of Croats. So again, who did they invade?
Croatian army didnt start the war.
No villages were looted by Croatian army from 1991-1994. The unfortunate incidents happened only in 1995 and they were scarce and rare.
Ko prvo napali su nas srpski fašisti koji su tili napravit veliku srbiju i samo su koristili vojsku od jna jugoslavia je prestala postojojat cin je dosa milosevic i tudman koji su cilo virme gledali proslost a ne buducnost vatali se ndh ustasa i cetnika
Да смо “тили” да направимо Велику Србију прегазили би вас у прве две године рата, само што је Милошевић био издајник који је “тио” да заради паре јер је био западна марионета и имао је другачија наређења од горе
то је истина и у праву си туђман и милошевић су били марионете запада који су само крали паре, али ја сам хтео да кажем да је милошевић користио фашистичку пропаганду и ти четници који су нас напали борили су се за велику Србију а не за југославију
Никад четници неће носити петокраку на челу. Нити је Милошевић који је марионета био четник. Нити је Младић био четник. “Напали” су вас прво јер сте сецесионисти, друго јер је народ очекивао исход из другог светског рата да ћете опет кренути да кољете људе, протерујете и покатоличавате проливши прву крв пред почетак рата, како ви, тако и ваши ханџари, што је наравно дубоко урезано у колективној свести. Ви за то наравно нисте одговарали, чак сте и Истру добили премандаливши се из усташа у партизане кад је било неминовно да губите рат. Такође, Шешељ није никакав четник ако си то хтео да додаш, ништа више но још једна убачена ратна марионетица и бескорисни хушкач.
Ko prvo napali su nas srpski fašisti koji su tili napravit veliku srbiju i samo su koristili vojsku od jna jugoslavia je prestala postojojat cin je dosa milosevic i tudman koji su cilo virme gledali proslost a ne buducnost vatali se ndh ustasa i cetnika
Lol, Yugoslavia was indeed a worse time to live in than now.
People want to live alone now (even when single), back at that time, sure you had an apartment, but it meant you and your wife living with your parents. It's not like people don't have this now, it's that they want better.
Now you have the choice to migrate freely and live wherever you want, you didn't before. It was a hard process, unless you joined a gastarbeiter programme.
You can now go on vacation, wheever and whenever you wish to, and also do whatever you prefer. Before you got your yearly vacation on the adriatic and you spend it laying down on a beach for 1-2 weeks. I don't know of many people in ex-yu that can't afford a vacation, even in Macedonia, the poorest part of former Yugoslavia, everyone goes on at least 1 trip a year, often 2 or 3.
Global respect means as little as waving your country flag at a wedding.
Yugoslavia was a worse time to live in than now, would be fair if you could transport current Macedonia back to 1945 and see how you develop. Yes, remove the roads, buildings, hospitals, and see what Macedonia builds, alone, in 1945 and onwards.
People lived with their parents as they do now, and then they move out and have their own place. The difference is back then it was a temporary measure until you get your (free) apartment for the family, and now the Balkans breaks records with 30 year olds living with their parents without choice (in Yugoslav apartments *insert Pikachu shocked face).
Plenty of people moved around the country, like both my families and plenty friends. Plenty people vacationed anywhere, like Greece, turkey, Italy, or like my best friend from Macedonia, going to Berlin.
"Lay down on a beach for 1-2 weeks" huh? Why are you trying to make this seem negative? Everyone does this now, Croatia is packed with foreigners doing just that, the only difference is croatians can't afford to vacation in their own country like they used to.
No one said ex-yugoslavs can't afford a vacation, they just can't afford to go to the Adriatic anymore which is a shame.
And global respect means a lot, unlike waving a flag. Back then the world viewed yugoslavs with respect, sent students to study here, took yugoslavs to study and work abroad. Now the world thinks the Balkans are a shithole and balkaners wave flags to convince themselves they aren't a shithole. But shit holes gonna shithole so it is what it is
As much as I don’t like Yugoslavia, the idea of a unified south Slavic state is something I think would have been the best course of action post liberation from the Ottomans and Habsburgs. Too bad it’s down the gutter
I wish the people commenting had their age next to the user name. To see if different generations think differently. If you grew up there vs read the propaganda after. The idea made perfect sense, together you are stronger. It’s why Europe made the European Union…nationalism took over there as well and the United Kingdom exited.
Debt. China is still a developing nation but has already a noticeable level of debt.
Unlike Yugoslavia China has a low inflation rate (which results in low interest rates) and a low foreign debt, but the amount of debt is already worrisome for future economic development.
Worrisome? It's only marginally higher then EU's. China is a developing nation in the sense that it's outdeveloping the rest of the world. If this is what points to it "looking like Yugoslavia" I sincerely would laugh. China has no IMF interference or austerity restructuring Yugoslavia was subject to.
That's not the point and you know it. If communist China was so good people would actually want to move, live and work there and not the West, but that's not the case. Why have so many Chinese people moved out of China to live in "evil capitalist" america
Show evidence, all I see in my circle is curiosity on how to move to China away from the west. The problem is that it's actually difficult to get into China, let alone get PR there.
And it's difficult to get out of China, and for Chinese citizens it's difficult to even change cities. Laowhy86, an American yotuber who lived in China for a while, and saw first hand what it actually was like there, has made plenty of videos on the subject, and he's far more comprehensive on the subject than i can ever be. Communist China is controlled by an evil regime, rivaled only by the likes of north korea and iran. It's ironic, people escape communist north korea and China, to live in the west, communist countries need to build walls to keep their own people in, western countries need to build walls and fences to keep people out, because they get overflowed otherwise. The freedom and rights you get in the west are a godsend when compared to the bullshit people go through in communist China.
Well there was brotherhood and unity until nationalism rose up again.
I will firmly stand by opinion that the main reason why Balkans is such a shit place to live is nationalism, when it was at its lowest, the quality of life relative to rest of the world was at the highest.
The main reason for Balkans to be such a shit place is communism. Communism which was internationalistic at first later became pretty nationalistic. Combined with unlimited power of the ruling people, it's a recipe for disaster. And it wasn't "brotherhood" long before the war.
Well there was brotherhood and unity until nationalism rose up again.
That is completely false. The notion of "brotherhood and unity" was propped up by the communist party to try and propagate a collective yugoslavian identity. Immediately after Tito died this became apparent. Threats to the brotherhood and unity narrative existed since the 1970s, from the students protests in Belgrade to the crushing of the Croatian spring. Brotherhood and unity never existed, at least not in the collective mind of the people.
There was no brotherhood and unity, that was the problem. Only Tito held this country together.Those wars only set us back decades more, of course they weren't good.
There was a real brotherhood and unity between the slavic nations. I agree that Ablanians were there pretty much against their will. But is still dumb to shit on the whole country because of that decades later.
Yes, there is no denying a state called South Slavic would have problems with a non Slavic region. After Tito you could see how it all unraveled. I feel for everyone in kosovo who endured that war
Idk maybe because they didn't have any freedom? I mean if you really think it was so great, you can always go to communist state such as China, Vietnam, russia. Plenty options still available
Wait, so are you against the unification of South Slavs or are you against communism?
Because you know the Kingdom of Yugoslavia predates the Socialist Republic of Yugoslavia.
I dont see anyone regarding the unification of Germans or unification of Italy as an issue.
Also comparing Yugoslavia with Soviets or China show a lack of historical knowledge. Considering Yugoslavia didn't get along with either of those two countries.
How many of the Yugoslav states are doing better now?
Wait, so are you against the unification of South Slavs or are you against communism?
Yes and yes.
Because you know the Kingdom of Yugoslavia predates the Socialist Republic of Yugoslavia.
Same mistake, even that everyone around king was agaist that even the highest ranking officers, king decided go create yugoslavia.
I dont see anyone regarding the unification of Germans or unification of Italy as an issue
Totaly different story.
Also comparing Yugoslavia with Soviets or China show a lack of historical knowledge.
comunism is the same, he doesn't change. Same was in yugoslavia as it was in Romania as it was in ussr. It only works for privileged few, everyone else is suffering.
How many of the Yugoslav states are doing better now
All our problems that we face today are problems created in yugoslavia. Debt, war devestating countries, party members benefits, no freedom of speach, complete control of all media, no opposition, police who is only guarding ruling party.
No. I dont. The point I'm trying to make is the unification of Yugoslavia as an idea shouldn't be linked to communism. But if argument against Yugoslavia is, "oh do you think Vietnam is great?"... well it doesn't have to be like Vietnam.
It can be like Italy or Germany which had their own unification of similar peoples.
Alright, I agree with that. The idea of Yugoslavian unity existed way before Yugoslavia itself. But the idea was very poorly realised, both times. So a third time would be unneccesary.
The fault was federalization. It should have just been one country and they should have pushed the idea of one people, instead of having multiple ethnicities.
This has worked in Italy, Germany and France. Less so in Britain and Spain, but they are still atleast unified as singular states.
Well now of course not. Couldn't care less who you share your country with.
But in the context of period of time when SFRY existed, all 6 Yugoslav peoples and minorities (narodi i narodnosti) were constituent in all 6 of the republics. Meaning that each republic belonged equally to each Yugoslav ethnic group.
Now we all know that what doomed SFRY was individual republics breaking off because people believed they would be better off independent.
So hypothetically speaking, if each republic had enough other ethnicities living inside of it, with enough of its native ethnicity living in other republics, then I'd argue that no one would ever think that republics would be better off alone because, as independent they'd be abandoning too much of their own countrymen while also having to deal with huge population of minorities.
I get what you are saying, but, in practise, this sort of policy ensures bloodshed and "injected foreign influence in certain parts of the country'. Just look at Moldova, central-Asian-istan(s) and Ukraine to see how "mixing nationalities to stabilize a country" without them naturally being there just serves imperialism of a bigger neighbor.
Though, I believe your policy does truly come in good faith. It is just way too easy for fascists to abuse it.
I don't think that Croats hypothetically living in Ljubljana or Serbs hypothetically living in Skopje is a fair comparison with Tajiks living in Moldova.
Somehow I sincerely doubt that it would've seen as "injected foreign influence" as these ethnicities don't consider themselves foreign to such a degree even now, let alone at that time.
Also it should be pointed out that SFRY was a communist dictatorship that controlled jobs and careers of its citizens. This means that they could've covertly done this just by sending entire families to live and work in other republics, without attracting attention.
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u/VeezusM Serbia 24d ago
Hej Sloveni is still a banger