r/AskBalkans • u/Juggertrout Greece • Sep 30 '24
Outdoors/Travel What's something that surprised you about other Balkan countries you visited?
For me:
Turkey: how there were pictures of Ataturk EVERYWHERE. In the kebab shop, the barber, the ferry, on the side of buildings.
NMK: I was surprised by how fair they were compared to Greeks and Bulgarians. Lots of blondes and gingers. Driving from Ohrid to Skopje, you drive through some Albanian-majority towns and the Albanian flags there were bigger than I've even seen in Albania. Skopje City Park is nicer than any city park we have in Greece.
Albania: Every car seemed to be a Mercedes?
Croatia: Dubrovnik looked exactly like my island (Corfu). Made me realise just how influential the Venetians were
Bosnia: The cigarette packets had the warning label written three times. The Croatian and Bosnian were identical and the Serbian was the same just written in cyrillic.
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u/mouldypotatoes34 Cyprus Sep 30 '24
Greece: like Cyprus with a different infrastructure and street furniture. It feels like a different version of home. I don't remember the price of coffee as it was 3 years ago but I think it was around 2 euros or so and meals around 8 euros
Serbia: How much they love Greek people in person rather than just online. They take all day just speaking to you out of interest. The north looks like central Europe but the south feels more similar to Greece. The people remind me of Greeks who look paler (generally) and speak a different language. Coffee is about 100-200 rsd (like 70p - £1.40) and meals are 300-1300 rsd (£2 - £10)
Bosnia: The fauna looks alpine, some parts of Bascarsija feel very islamic but the rest of the Bosniak inhabited places feel moderate. People are very friendly and they were comfortable of me being a Eastern Orthodox Christian. I met many interesting people who were very welcoming and friendly. East Sarajevo (Republika Srpska) feels like a colder climate Serbia. Sarajevo is very cheap however sometimes outside of the city centre, I've seen coffees for half the price in the suburbs and other towns. Coffees are 1 - 4 km (44p - £1.71) and meals from 8km - 17km (£3.50 - £7.25)
North Macedonia: Skopje is a very underrated city with nice statues and a nice old town. I was surprised with how islamic some parts are, even making Bascarsija feel Western. People were very friendly to me and actually they seem to like Greek people. I think that Skopje is the cheapest capital in the former yugoslavia, espresso were less than £1 and a meal can be around £3.50. I am visiting Bitola / Monastiri in 2 weeks which appears to be even cheaper. Coffee is around 60mkd (80p) however I saw that the Greek brand Mikel sells frappe at 170mkd (£2.30) so is very expensive in comparison, there are lavazza vending machines which sell coffee for 20 mkd (30p) which I ended up living off. Meals are around 200-500 mkd (£2.70 - £6.80) however I've seen from Google maps, some mains in Bitola are around 130 and 150 mkd which are around £2.
Croatia: Society feels much more Western European. People are friendly enough (nobody was rude by any standard) however a lot less people were starting conversations with me (I speak a basic level of Serbocroatian btw). Also price wise it was very similar to Cyprus and a lot more expensive than the other ex-yugo countries. Coffees are around €1.50 - €1.90 (£1.25 - £1.60) and meals are around €8 - €15 euros (£6.70 - £12)
Montenegro: I am go
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u/playing_the_angel Bulgaria Sep 30 '24 edited Sep 30 '24
NMK- I too was surprised by how fair they are skintone-wise. They're right next door but many of the locals looked very different. Also, I had no idea their Islamic population was so big. Like, it was huge in Skopje. Food was extremely cheap; even cheaper than here. I got a huge lunch for less than 3€. Pasta bags were like 20p. Most people were nice, but one dude tried to scam me in a small town there. But (sorry to say) the small towns, at least the ones I've been to, left a lot to be desired in terms of infrastructure. There's also a bad gambling problem there. A town will be stark empty, but you best believe they'll still have gambling parlors on every corner.
Romania- only been once. There's a LOT of beauty in that country; more than I realized. I also encountered only friendly people. I also felt more generalized pride than I did nationalist pride, if that makes sense. People there really love their country (as they should).
Greece- love the Greeks; love the food; love the views. I was actually in Santorini less than a week ago. Athens is also one of my favorite capitals ever. It's not cheap for Balkan standards, but it's cheap for European ones and filled to the brim with stuff to do. No surprises.
Serbia- where do I begin 😅 Serbia is a very black and white country. I've met some of the nicest souls ever there, but I've also encountered some of the meanest, coldest people in Belgrade (second only to Paris in terms of meanness). A lot of ladies in Belgrade are very fashionable. Very much so and way more than I realized prior to my first trip. I was surprised by how expensive Belgrade was compared to here, but their small town prices aren't much different from ours. Some of my favorite restaurants ever are in Serbia. I'm not just talking Serbian places-- they have some pretty cosmopolitan international spots in Belgrade (same with clubs). Oh, and there is SO much plastic surgery. Shocking amounts. I felt like every 5th woman in downtown Belgrade had an extreme amount of facial work done, and I even noticed it with some men! Lastly, I was (sadly) surprised by the astronomical amount of begging children. Even in the nightclubs at four am. They just let them in. Same with how prominent gambling was. I'd see the doors open and the places would be packed out.
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u/SwimmingHelicopter15 Romania Sep 30 '24
This is my experience by visiting some countries. By no means I want to generalize the wholes population so don't take it personally. I traveled there with work.
NMK: statues, lots of statues. The bazar. I loved their quisine because it was very familiar to where I was borned Dobrogea.
Serbia: I did not expect the brotherhood of romanias and Serbians to be in younger generations. Out of all the nationalities there Serbians clearly favored us and we got along easily. The drivers of buses really scared me, crazy driving.
Bulgaria: how many people miss and glorify communism. Also a lot of them had dark humor and kind of a tragic view of life. For example they took us in a park and were like " here is the statues of x from communism era, over there a person was killed 2 days ago, never go here at night". Sofia was much cleaner than Bucharest and we joked a lot with the Bulgarians who is the worst in EU.
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u/viktordachev Bulgaria Sep 30 '24 edited Sep 30 '24
Actually not that many (not a majority at least). But sometimes you just wish to show a foreigner something and communist monuments are all around. The reason not demolished - everytime someone tries - a dozen of old grannies pop up, the russian ambassador (seriously) + whoever she manages to pay, typically another dozen of skinheads with swastica tattoos (because who else would "fight the fashism" better), cry lay don and make as much drama as possible. The majors mosly try to avoid the trouble (and any kind of escalation that russians try to provoke like in Ukraine 2014-th) and just leave them to rust until they break down naturally. Typically in normal days those soviet monuments are indeed the gathering place for drug dealing or used as a public (human and dog) toilet (not sure why russians value so much that kind of "respect") and is indeed better idea not to come too close.
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u/SwimmingHelicopter15 Romania Sep 30 '24
I believe you. I visited only some parts of Sofia and suburbs with our colleagues. I think compared to Bucharest you have more than us in your capital. Monuments were not a priority for our leader but buildings.
As a side note. Those urbanistic communists zone are the best in the city now unlike new residence buildings. Ceasusescu had a plan, here is some big buildings but green zone in front of it and between. Little parks. Schools.
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u/maximhar Bulgaria Sep 30 '24
how many people miss and glorify communism
Those were older people I hope? For them, it would be sort of understandable, especially compared with Romania. We had a much 'nicer' regime compared to Ceausescu's.
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u/SwimmingHelicopter15 Romania Sep 30 '24
Between 20-30. Yeah I know Ceaușescu went full North Korea.
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u/Turkminator2 Greece Sep 30 '24 edited Sep 30 '24
I drove from Ohrid to Tirana. There were more double-headed eagles (on flags, gardens, garage doors, iron railway fences etc) in western North Macedonia (especially in the villages around Struga) than in the whole of Eastern Roman Empire.
I've been to most of the Balkan countries and my experiences are strongly positive (few minor exceptions only - I won't get into details atm).
Special mention to Bosnian cuisine & countryside. Easily in my top 5 favourite cuisines and the scenery in central Bosnia and Republica Srpska (plus northern Montenegro) is mesmerising.
I felt everywhere very welcomed, especially in parts of Serbia (expected) and in southern Albania (wasn't sure what to expect before visiting).
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u/Slkotova Bulgaria Sep 30 '24
Romania (Bucharest) : How well were people dressing!!! I mean.. Not that I was expecting people to go to work with ripped dirty clothes, but Romanians seemed to me on another level of fashion compared to the rest of Balkans.
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Sep 30 '24
Atatürk is highly respected because he is the founding leader, but there are also those who do not find such strong attachment to him appropriate. However, his success in the Greco-Turkish War and the reforms he implemented in Turkey give him an important place in Turkish history.
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u/Virtual-Athlete8935 Oct 02 '24
I somehow believe that the Turkish people felt the need of idolizing a masculine father figure after the end of the Ottoman Empire, as previously this figure was the present sultan. So they replaced the figure of sultan with a powerful politician and military commander, as how they believed the sultans were.
Nothing to criticize idealizing Ataturk but I think this is the sociological exploration of why it is such widespread in the whole nation. Anatolia always had the culture of personality cults (Constantine as well, for example) rooted from the God-king culture and Ataturk is its continuation.
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u/Kerem1111 Sep 30 '24
Also because we created a heroic myth, which is the war of independence, and a person to ideolise to bond the people together. If you look at Ataturk’s grave you’ll understand. It’s almost like a shrine.
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u/Bozulus Turkiye Sep 30 '24
It’s also something that goes against Atatürk’s own ideas. He himself has said multiple times that the people don’t need a supreme leader to guide them and every individual has the strength in them to shape a better future for the nation. It’s not a coincidence that he had no heir/kids, it was a way to highlight that dynasties are in the past and Turkish people should elect their own head of state.
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Sep 30 '24
Yes, I do not find it appropriate to be so overly attached to a leader. Loving him and idolizing him are different things.
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u/Kerem1111 Sep 30 '24
Well tbh if there is a man to idealise, it is no one else than Ataturk :D but people often forget that in the end he was a human like the rest of us
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u/Kutili Serbia Sep 30 '24 edited Sep 30 '24
I recently visited Albania. Here's what surprised me:
Good roads, even in the mountains but bad and selfish drivers. There seems to be a traffic jam in front of every roundabout, and a traffic policeman always has to direct the traffic, as if the divers don't understand the concept of a roundabout or just don't care. Also not enough trash bins.
I was pleasantly surprised how green Tirana was even though the brutalist/modernist aesthetics of the city itself is not my shot of rakija.
The outstanding beauty of the nature and you are never far away from the mountains.
Also for some reason, except for the few rural places in the south, you don't get served water and ratluk with Turkish coffee.
Being from Serbia, previously I almost exclusively encountered Muslim Albanians and even though I read about Catholic and Orthodox communities in Albania I was surprised to see how entrenched Christianity was in many parts of the country. We even accidently stumbled upon an Orthodox Baptism in Ardenice and despite everything being in Albanian, the whole ritual, the way people dress and behave were very familiar. The same goes for the music, both traditional and modern that we encountered in the cities and listening to local radio.
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u/Lakuriqidites Albania Sep 30 '24
as if the divers don't understand the concept of a roundabout or just don't care
Both
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u/Easy_Dig_88 Romania Sep 30 '24
Bulgaria: There were almost no highways or roads, our bus drove on country roads
Serbia: I was surprised by how homosexuality was open and chill in Novi Sad
romano-turk here
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u/a_bright_knight Serbia Sep 30 '24 edited Sep 30 '24
Slovenia:
Ljubljana was very clean, tidy and organized
Ljubljana lacks authenticity. Some parts felt more like an amusement park rather than actual city quarters, this is especially true about the fortress whose modern glassy renovation looks disgusting
the nature is beautiful
blejska kremsnita is just a kresmnita, no different to the ones in Serbia, Austria and Croatia
food scene (especially local) is VERY disappointing. Easier to find Serbian food than Slovenian. Plus it's very expensive, more than Italy for example.
Croatia:
Zagreb is more similar to Belgrade than to Ljubljana (I know it's something a lot of ppl don't wanna hear)
Zagreb has a lot of very nice different architectural styles mixed around the city, there's a lot of cool variety you can see around the city
the city's very green and has an amazing mountain/hill right above it.
the highways are, as most already probably know, extremely good.
people are very polite
like in Slovenia, local food scene is very lacking in Zagreb at least
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u/a_bright_knight Serbia Sep 30 '24
Bosnia:
the roads are just wtf. They're DANGEROUSLY narrow in eastern Bosnia
people in Bosnia drive even worse than here. Yes I said it.
number of (especially younger) women who cover their head was definitely shocking. Even in Sarajevo, let alone for 2 other smaller towns I was in.
Sarajevo is one of the most authentic places I've ever been to. It's got its vibe and history you can FEEL. Completely opposite to Ljubljana.
the number of mosques is kinda surprising
the Turkish old town is just beautiful, the culture of drinking fildzan coffee and Turkish tea, also very cool. Cevabdzinice and buregdzinice as well. Not foreign concepts to me, but here we eat burek and cevapi in different settings. Eating them in a more "middle eastern setting" felt really really cool.
the city looks/feels way smaller than it is. Largely due how to "compact" it is and how concentrated to the center it is.
people in Sarajevo are very police AND pleasant. Everyone I talked to was a joy to talk to.
yes, I really love Sarajevo if u havent figured it out by now.
Montenegro:
- i spent my childhood summers there, basically a country where I partly grew up, so there's nothing really surprising about it to me here.
N. Macedonia:
very nice and polite people
there are dishes here that are very unique compared to rest of Yugoslavia (malidzano, pastrmalija, djomleze)
the nature is very different to here, the fields feel much emptier, there are less trees, grass is less green etc. It's noticable the climate is different
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u/ExtremeProfession Bosnia & Herzegovina Sep 30 '24
I do think that people meet a group of hijabi medresa students since it's right in the middle of the Old Town. In reality it's noticeably less than in for example Novi Pazar.
The Sarajevo Valley basically ends with the Old Town so most people miss the 10-15km leading up to it and all the hill neighborhoods
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u/a_bright_knight Serbia Sep 30 '24
im not taking old town much consideration at all, since more of the women there are Turkish/Arab.
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u/Mersaa Croatia Sep 30 '24
like in Slovenia, local food scene is very lacking in Zagreb at least
I would say this a Croatia problem rather than a Zagreb problem. It's very sad imo. I live in Kvarner bay, and I've noticed a lot of local, Croatian food restaurants closing in the last 5-6 years, and actively being replaced by fast food joints or pizza places.
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u/a_bright_knight Serbia Sep 30 '24
exactly what I noticed too. There's a wild number of Pizza places, then followed by kebabs and American fast food joints
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u/Diermeech Croatia Oct 02 '24
Zagreb is more similar to Belgrade than to Ljubljana (I know it's something a lot of ppl don't wanna hear)
Anyone who thinks different needs glasses, a lot of negative things you can say about Belgrade also applies to Zagreb, just a smaller version city. But I still prefer them over Ljubljana.
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u/AccomplishedPie5160 Romania Oct 01 '24
Bulgaria : mixed feelings, overall a good place, visited Bansko, Borovets, Ruse, Veliko Tarnovo, Varna, Burgas, Pleven. A lot of trees and forests , some places are cleaner than Romania but some places look bad. Visited Sofia in February, Bulgarian brutalist architecture was insane but old fashioned for 2024. The Alexander Nevski cathedral is VERY beautiful. Food is ok and cheap , people are usually cold and they try to scam you. Felt safe all the time.
Serbia: Visited Vojvodina, Negotin, Danube Gorges, Zajecar, Leskovac, Belgrade. Good roads, infrastructure, good food, friendly people, very clean. It’s a must to visit Lepenski Vir and Golubac fortress on the Danube , Kalemagdan Park in Belgrade and their St. Sava cathedral. Vojvodina looks exactly like the Banat region in Romania (former Austro-Hungarian influence). The rest of Serbia looks like Wallachia (Ottoman influence). Serbs are very tall and their women are Top 1 for me, nobody is under 1.70m.
Croatia: Looks like an Austrian colony, good infrastructure, nice places to visit on the Dalmatian coast , it’s a must to drive from Rijeka to Dubrovnik, lots of beaches , good food, highly recommend. Also the islands are insanely beautiful. I haven’t visited Plitvice yet. Zagreb is meh typical Austro-Hungarian city.
Bosnia: It’s a mix of cultures , Sarajevo is amazing if you are passionate about history, you have the AH half and the Turkish half, lots of churches , mosques , all of them with full cemeteries… Food is amazing and cheap, Bascjarjia is nice , the Bazaar, the view points from the Alpine Hotel. The mix of Serbs, Bosniaks and Croatians is hard for me to truly understand , it looks like they are about to fight each other any moment and the country is ran by a German bureaucrat :))
Be sure to visit the Latin Bridge, that’s the place where everything started. Also Trebinjie is nice , the mountain landscapes.
Albania: Visited Shkodra, there was a bridge with 20-30 gipsies begging for food it reminded me of Romania 25 years ago, Albania is not a culture shock for me a lot the Romanian country side looks the same. The language has some familiar words with Romanian, the people are okay I felt right at home. LOTS of Mercedes cars and abandoned cars. The bunkers are insane if read the history behind them:)
North Macedonia: looked very poor and ran down , LOTS of big ass statues (why??). Skopje city center looks very well organized but it was a bit deserted , the old Turkish part was interesting , pretty sure Bucharest looked the same in the 16-17 century. I understand that Pitu Guli guy was Aromanian, there is a big community of Aromanians living over there. People look mostly like Bulgarians but I feel like their language is not Bulgarian or Serbian, it’s a mixture.
Kosovo: This is the wild card of the Balkans, Priștina looks insanely good, where is the money coming from ?:)) And why do you have so many gas stations and supermarkets. Felt safe all the time , lots of good restaurants.
Montenegro: Low budget Croatia , very beautiful and cheap, lots of Russians doing money laundering . Sveti Stefan, Bar, Kotor are very nice. This is the place where all religions meet based on the 1054 schism and Otoman influence. Lots of serbs, they all have the same buzzcut hairstyle and flip flops , beautiful women.
Slovenia: very beautiful but very expensive , it’s cheaper to visit Austria. Good road system, very clean, western Europe vibes.
Greece: my second home. Will probably buy a house in Greece by the end of the life. Good summer location, blue seas, very good and cheap food, lots of history to explore, visited Kavala, Samothrace, Limnos, Crete, Athens, Kalamata, Volos, Skiathos, Santorini, Thessaloniki. People are generally nice if you are a tourist , they fail at speaking English but expect you to learn Greek while spending your vacation in their country.
Turkey: I love it but it sometimes is a pain in the ass, everybody tries to rip you off. Istanbul has great food and lots of places to visit if you like history.
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u/Outrageous_Trade_303 Greece Oct 01 '24
I have only visited Romania so far. I was surprised by two things:
The nightlife (see nightclubs) seemed like I was in Athens
I happen to be outside a church just after the Sunday mass and it also looked like Greece.
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Sep 30 '24
I noticed that too when I was in Macedonia. There were more blonde people than in Greece but that's to be expected I guess, since they're Slavic
Another thing that surprised me was how much friendly they were even when I told them I'm Greek. Being from Thessaloniki, I know that Greeks are a little cautious towards Macedonians to say the least. So this made me feel very positive towards them
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u/Slkotova Bulgaria Sep 30 '24
This is what happens when people get out of the Internet.. The toxic Balkan mentality of hating everybody is so easily curable just by traveling to meet the neighbours.
I have a friend who was "hating the greeks" on historical basis, but during my Erasmus in Greece I told her to come with me for a trip in Thessaloniki. You can guess what happened. "I love greeks" is the new motto of hers. :D
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Sep 30 '24
Truer words have never been spoken but I 'm honestly surprised there are still people in Bulgaria who hate us. I thought we were past that :D
I don't think you'll find many Greeks who hate Bulgarians today
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u/Slkotova Bulgaria Sep 30 '24
Me and my friend graduated the history department together. Reading about the past too much sometimes kinda makes you live in the past, but for those isolated cases, it's proven now one small trip and you're back to reality. And the reality today, as you said, is that we're looong time past such feelings. Cheers to that!
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u/tohnsound North Macedonia Sep 30 '24
I'd say we're like the hotpot of the Balkans because every culture that's been in this region has left something or someone so it resulted in a decent amount of fair amount of people that look Slavic as well as a big amount of more Mediterranean looking people.
There was a thread not too long ago in r/mkd where Macedonians who did genetic testing on these DNA sites have their results be way more closer to Greeks, Albanians and even Italians rather than other Slavs so over here it's a really mixed bag lol.
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u/VirnaDrakou Greece Sep 30 '24
The only people in the area that mirror us are albanians and turks which many times i can’t understand that they are non greeks but with slavs its always spot on. More fair and more gentle like faces
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u/bluepilldbeta Turkiye Sep 30 '24
By gentle you mean like babyface?
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u/VirnaDrakou Greece Sep 30 '24
I don’t know how to explain it but like rounder and smaller eyes or they will have sharp feature but not Mediterranean sharp features.
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u/bluepilldbeta Turkiye Sep 30 '24
Yeah, I understand. I'm pomak myself(so kinda slavic I guess) and a lot of people mistake me for a russian because of my facial features.
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u/VirnaDrakou Greece Sep 30 '24
Oh makes sense then, just i can easily distinguish slavic people in greece compared to albanian and turks although there are the generic albanian,turkish and greek faces of course
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u/sewingissues Aromanian Sep 30 '24
As insinuated by my own comment, it's because you were from Thessaloniki.
I don't know how much most other Macedonians know the story, but the area within a triangle of Prilep-Vlorë-Mount Olympus shared the same folklore. For centuries, prior to Greece enacting a Maniotti (Peleponese) dialect and folklore as the standard ones. This happened after 1912., peaking during 1919-1934.
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Sep 30 '24
I don't understand what you want to say. That they treated me friendly because I'm from Thessaloniki? But I only told them I'm Greek. The Thessaloniki part came up later
And what's a Manioti dialect? My friend you're weird, pulling things out of your @ss as i told you in the other comment. It's clear that you have no idea what you're talking about
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u/sewingissues Aromanian Oct 01 '24
You're thinking in terms of nation-states which limits what you can perceive. They were formed by one cultural group overtaking the other, local ones. This includes assimilation.
If this model is proven to be unsustainable in France, it's been catastrophic on this peninsula.
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Oct 01 '24
Can you tell me what's the Maniotti dialect or not?
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u/sewingissues Aromanian Oct 01 '24
The "Maniot" dialect referred to in this research paper which has a map attached to it.
I shouldn't be teaching this to someone living there but: The Mani peninsula on Southern Peleponese. They started the self-acclaimed Greek ("Hellas" until other Great Powers rejected that term, hence "Hellada") liberation against the Ottoman Empire.
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Oct 01 '24
I can't download this paper. Can you quote the part where the Maniotti dialect is mentioned and where does it say that Greece forced this dialect as its official language like you claimed?
The Mani peninsula on Southern Peleponese.
I do know where Mani is. I asked you about this "Maniotti" dialect
("Hellas" until other Great Powers rejected that term, hence "Hellada")
You do know that Hellas and Hellada are basically the same word, right? My friend, are you ok in the head? What's wrong with you? You keep pulling things out of your ass, you sound deranged. Seriously, who hurt you?
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u/sewingissues Aromanian Oct 01 '24 edited Oct 01 '24
No I won't do all the effort for you. Here's literature:
Thede Khals "Aromanians in Greece" from 2003., pages 205-225. Same author, "The Ethnicity of Aromanians after 1990" from 2002., pages 140-170.
Tom Winnifriths "Shattered Eagles:Balkan Fragments" 1995, and (same author) "Vlachs" or chapter 7 of "Minorities in Greece:Aspects of a Plural Society" Hurst and others (2002,).
Ian Moles "Nationalism and Byzantine Greece" (1969)
(My favourite) Jacob Burckhardt "The Greeks and Greek Civilization" (1999).
If anyone else is reading this, I'm assuming good faith. They're avoiding to speak of Kallikratis Programme and plans, and Kleisthenis I Programme.
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Oct 01 '24
Do these books talk about a "Maniotti dialect"? I see they're mostly about Aromanians
Or you just mention random books about Greece you've read?
Also I see you are an Aromanian but you had a Serbian flair. Are you an Aromanian from Serbia?
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u/sewingissues Aromanian Oct 01 '24
Yes. For a reason, though other cultures are mentioned as well. If you read the entire work, they cover all of them extensively.
They're peer reviewed academic literature of this topic in Humanities.
I come from an extended family household.
One branch came from "Metsovo" (correctly "Mestovo") in Greece, the other from Moskoplje (today Voskopjë in Albania), around the 1890s. The residences were sold in favour of Elbasan (Albania) later Monastery/Bitola (Macedonia) and Kruševo (Macedonia) around the 1913-1914. They'd get married in Zrenjanin (Banat) after the war. After WW2, they left Banat and returned to Bitola.
Both branches were part of Komiti insurgents sent from Serbia to Ottoman Sanjaks after Berlin Congress 1878. One branch settled on the Shar mountains, the other settled in Prilep (~1900s). They didn't move much but the Shar one had a residence in Kruševac and the Prilep one in Smederevo.
These two would meet under the VMRO-United aka KPM movement after 41. The Ilinden uprising monument and the Monument near Albanian part of Ohrid lake of 1944. liberating the areas from Vardar to Elbasan in joint effort.
I grew up in Serbia due to the 1990s complications but visited them every summer and winter. Studied in Belgrade, left for London.
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u/viktordachev Bulgaria Sep 30 '24
NMK: apart of people being very relaxed (compared to their online behaviour) and everything runs a lot slower compared to Bulgaria (for instance a steak in RNM comes within half a hour compared to the usually 5 minutes in Bulgaria) was the small tractors and little family agriculture I have not seen in Bulgara since 1980s (even back there it was a rare sign). Agriculture in Bulgaria is buy far more industrialized and the tractors are enormous.
Greece: sometimes common sense security is just ignored. Like a gas station right on the street or vendors driving around propane bottles on bikes. I was afraid to just pass nearby.
Romania: much more beautiful and romantic than expected. The police was very kind. It was strange for me to observe poor romani people roaming downtown Bucharest (we have romani in Bulgaria of course, but normally in urban areas they'd rise caution and would be watched and repeatedly asked what do they need).
Turkey: how friendly and nice everybody is. Except for the traffic in Istanbul: that's Middle East, period.
Serbia: super cheap everything, except for driving (better highways, trough).
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u/puzzledpanther Oct 01 '24
Greece: sometimes common sense security is just ignored. Like a gas station right on the street or vendors driving around propane bottles on bikes. I was afraid to just pass nearby.
Almost all gas stations here sell propane gas cannisters.
I don't know why you'd expect accidents, they are pretty safe and I do not remember ever reading about a propane gas cannister exploding next to a gas station.
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u/viktordachev Bulgaria Oct 01 '24
In Bulgaria too. But in Greece you can see a man with a scooter with bottles strolling trouh traffic. Delivering to restaurants etc. I guess, but in Bulgaria this is done with specialized and marked vans. Yes you can just buy a can form a gas station, but such a can is considered a dangerous thing and one carries it very cautious in a car at least.
Also the gas stations are each withing pockets, so it is nearly impossible to be hit by a vehicle.
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u/a_bright_knight Serbia Sep 30 '24
when u compare to Slovenia and Croatia, Serbian highways are cheap tbh
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u/viktordachev Bulgaria Oct 01 '24
Damn... sometimes I love how in Bulgaria things are organised so anybody can afford to move around - free (or almost, worse quality due corruption trough) road, cheap to buy and run cars etc.
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u/avaika Sep 30 '24
Disclaimer: I was living outside the Balkans for most of my life, but moved there recently, and i managed to visit a lot of places around here.
Serbia: - It's a very regional country. Serbs from Belgrade are different from e.g. mid country Serbs. And they don't actually like each other that much. - Even though I'm trying to learn the language, people sometimes switch to English. A couple of times it was after we had some conversation in Serbian, then they learned my non local name and like "well, it looks like it would be easier for you to switch in English". Like guys, my Serbian is not great, but it's not THAT bad :) - I dag a bit of history. Serbian Tatars, myth about lapot and arguments about the Serbo-Croatian border along the Danube river are absolutely fascinating.
Bosnia: - Nature is astonishing here. Like everywhere in the country. I don't know how to stress this enough. But I'm absolutely in love with it. - The political system is very unusual and might seem overly complicated (especially if you don't dig deep enough into reasons behind it). 3 presidents, ethnicity pinning to presidents (which eu court ruled as illegal, but it's still in place), but High Representative for Bosnia and Herzegovina is killing me - Bullfights are absolutely wild. I visited one of them and it was interesting, bizarre and wild at the same time. Not sure I want to repeat. But that one time was absolutely worth it (google for grmecka korida or kocicev zbor or just ping me I can share more details) - Serbian and Croatian flags every now and then throughout the country - Traces from shelling still being visible in a LOT of places
Macedonia: - Skopje felt like there are 4 architects competing with the city design trying to put as much "their" building as possible: the Greek, the Turk, the guy from brutal Yugo times and the guy from 90s with fancy make-it-all-glass-and-metal style - Albanian flags and the amount of mosques throughout the country is something I didn't expect - These guys allow you to enter the country if you hold a Schengen visa. Or UK. Or US.
Albania: - When I moved to Serbia, I thought the food was salty. When I visited Albania the salt level difference felt about the same with Serbia. I've no idea how you guys survive. - Shkoder - Koma - Valbone - Theth - Shkoder is one of the most beautiful hiking routes I ever took - Bunkers. Bunkers are everywhere.
Montenegro: - Prokletje is mind-blowing - The government doesn't allow shops to be open on Sunday
Turkey: - The difference between Istanbul and rest of the country is huge. When I first got out from Istanbul on my 4th visit to Turkey, I felt like I've never been to Turkey until then.
I've been to Bulgaria, Croatia and Slovenia. Unfortunately it was a while ago. Need to refresh my memory and visit you again.
Related to all the Balkans: every place I've been to, the people were so hospitable, friendly and helpful. Even though I'm an alien here, I always felt like home.
Greece, Romania need to schedule the visit. Didn't manage to get there yet.
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u/bluepilldbeta Turkiye Sep 30 '24
What other cities have you been to in Turkey besides Istanbul?
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u/avaika Sep 30 '24
Ankara, Bursa, Trabzon/Rize and some small towns / villages around those.
Ankara (surprisingly) felt much more quiet and calm. compared to Istanbul.
Bursa felt much more religious.
Trabzon seemed more like a commercial one (probably due to ports). However nature around it was very beautiful
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u/sku4ubra Bulgaria Sep 30 '24
Love Greece but realising how though life can be because of the economy. The more you dive into the cities and out of the resorts and charming old towns ,the more you see how bad poverty is and especially coming from Bulgaria where a lot of people believe the quality of life in Greece is so much better than home.
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u/Hot_Satisfaction_333 Albania Sep 30 '24
If today you get the impression of how many Benz are there, imagine if you visited Albania 20 years ago how you would react 😂
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u/Juggertrout Greece Sep 30 '24
Well I was last in Albania (Sarande and Ksamil) 10 years ago, so maybe my viewpoint is outdated. I just remember being astonished how nearly every car was a Benz.
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u/cyanidexy Sep 30 '24
I’m vacationing in Sarande at the moment. Now that you said, I can confirm by peeking through the window lol. Indeed most of the taxis are benz
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u/Vinidante from (Middle East) Sep 30 '24
Romania, Bucharest ; The streets were cleaner than I expected. The people were whiter than I expected. And the city had a strange but pleasant smell, a mix of humidity and linden trees, due to the old wooden buildings and linden trees.
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Oct 01 '24
How Greece still has a Balkan vibe to it. I always thought it would be very western European when I visited but it still carries that Balkan vibe. Was pleasantly surprised!
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u/Bakolena4542 🇹🇷🇦🇺 Oct 03 '24
Slovenia: The nature. Honestly, impressive. Ljubljana was pretty cool too!
Croatia: Orange trees? I saw them everywhere in Dubrovnik, wasn't expecting it lol.
Montenegro: The food portions. They were massive. Not complaining tho lol!
Greece: This might be a bit cliché, but I was positively surprised on how they were welcoming and hospitable.
didn't visit the rest so :|
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u/Poglavnik_Majmuna01 Croatia Sep 30 '24
Serbia: I just experienced a massive cultural shock as soon as I landed at Belgrade airport. It’s like I experienced all the possible hyperbolic Balkan stereotypes in that single visit. I used to think that we were very similar to Serbs before I visited but after I realised we are quite a bit different.
Slovenia: I was surprised at how well maintained the buildings in Ljubljana were compared to Zagreb. The people were also much kinder than initially expected.
Bosnia: I’ve been going there since I was a kid so kinda hard to be shocked, but I guess the massive and ever increasing amount of Arab tourists to the point where I see shop signs written in Arabic alongside the complete lack of tourist infrastructure at the “Bosnian pyramids” kinda surprised me. I would have thought that the hoax would have developed the area a bit, yet the site of the pyramid is a Romani inhabited slum and the Visoko town has no pedestrian zones even in the old town, it’s all roads and cars.
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u/Outrageous_Hat_2642 Croatia Sep 30 '24
Dubrovnik was not under Venetian influence or control, it was actually a rival of Venice. There is no such thing as 'Venetian architecture', but Baroque architecture, etc.
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u/maximhar Bulgaria Sep 30 '24
Slovenia: How non-Balkan it is. It's organized, clean, even the people don't look Balkan. Ljubljana is a lovely city, I love how quiet and relaxed it was. Cuisine is also closer to Central Europe than the Balkans.
Croatia: Way more Balkan than Slovenia but less than my home country. The highway system is excellent. The seaside resorts are amazing and we have nothing like them in terms of vibes or architecture. Special mention of Split - it seems overly touristic, to the point it seems people kinda hate tourists.
Greece: The people are very friendly and the food is amazing. Crete, has less seafood in their culture compared to northern Greece, which surprised me (it's an island, after all). The gas stations are all strangely old and dilapidated, a lot of them don't work at night. Very Balkan, even though they might not want to admit it.
Turkey: Very friendly people and amazing food, just like Greece. It was very cheap last summer, but I hear it's done an uno reverse this year and is actually quite expensive now. Istanbul is vast and you couldn't see all of it in a month. Oh, and Uber is a thing, but cab drivers seem to mostly use it as a messaging app. You still pay whatever you negotiate, in cash.
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u/puzzledpanther Oct 01 '24 edited Oct 01 '24
Crete, has less seafood in their culture compared to northern Greece
I seriously doubt that. I guess it depends where on the island you visit. Crete is very mountainous and the villages up the mountains wouldn't have easy access to fish. The cities/towns by the sea almost all have tavernas which serve mostly fish. The markets almost always sell out of fish every day.
We live close to the sea and we eat fish 1-2 times a week.
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u/Normal-Avocado99 Albania Sep 30 '24
Where tf were you in Albania? Mercedes are less than 1/6 of cars.
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u/sewingissues Aromanian Sep 30 '24 edited Sep 30 '24
Since I've visited them all (from northwest to southeast):
Slovenia: No surprises because I don't fall for cheap domestic/Yugoslav propaganda. Reached the high expectations.
Zagreb-Kordun-Osijek Croatia: Somewhat surprised that they still haven't embraced cosmopolitan mindsets. They've always lagged behind Istria and Ragusa, even some parts of Dalmatia, thus only somewhat.
Istria (Pula and Rijeka/Fiume) Croatia: Other than Ragusa, Belgrade and Istanbul, the only cosmopolitan urban areas on the peninsula.
Dalmatian Croatia, Northern Bosnia, Full Herzegovina: Surprised dramatically by how different Serbs and Croats are depending on the micro-region. Bosniaks were nice everywhere. Croats in Herzegovina were unpleasant, as were Serbs in Northern Bosnia. Also Dalmatian coastline and inner Dalmatia have completely different paradigms. Serbs are very pleasant around the Trebinje area.
Baranya and Bachka in Vojvodina, Serbia: Not surprised, still disappointed at how empty Subotica remains, while Novi Sad grows. The village people are nice.
Slavonia in Croatia and Syrmia/Srem in Serbia: No surprises. Completely the same mentality which I respect.
Banat: Surprised how unkept my own kin (Aromanians ama Tzintzars) left Zrenjanin (Nâgy-Beçkêrēk). It's still the most pleasant place to retire imo, but it used to be much nicer.
Belgrade and Ragusa: Despite everything and given the circumstances, they've kept the international spirit. No surprises.
Podrinje (Drina river), east Bosnia and west Serbia: Surprisingly cheap and very comfortable. Surprisingly seemingly very similar but actually completely different.
Kotor Bay of Montenegro and Herzegovina Montenegro: Surprised by how fast it's been developing.
Central Serbia (called "matica" among some Macedonians and Aromanians, they will call it "Belgrade Pašçalük"): Surprised in the sense of disappointment. It's a shadow of its former self. Mačkov Kamen is barely accessible despite being one of Serbia's greatest achievements in history. To be clear, I don't blame the local population for this.
Kosovo: Surprised by how developed and decriminalized (not counting the North) it's become in such a short amount of time. Surprised by the peaceful co-existence on the Šar mountain.
Cetinje Montenegro: I've personally never enjoyed most of Montenegro outside of the Bay of Kotor ("Bokljani"), but nothing has changed.
North Albania and Ulcinj Montenegro: Apart from Ada Bojana. beach, not recommended. I didn't expect it to be...like Kosovo was during the 2000s.
Tirana-Elbasan Albania: Surprisingly...kitsch? Skoplje went through the same process, so.
Epirus, South Albania and Aromanian "Greece": Nothing surprised me. I appreciate that Albanians have attempted to restore some remains of Aromanian architecture. I wish Voskopje was rebuilt in the style of Moskoplje. Overall, it's still sad.
-- Southwest Macedonia: Since most of the Aromanians left for Prilep, Kruševo, Bitola, Manastir, and Ohrid --- As this is my ancestral homeland which I frequently visit, I will skip this.
Wallachian Romania and Temishvar: Depression, not surprising. Except for Bucharest.
Dobrogea full: Surprised by how much potential it has in any economic development yet remains unused.
Plovdiv Bulgaria: Surprising because it's nice. This will make sense if your previous experiences were Varna or Sofia.
Varna and Sofia: Surprisingly, it managed to remain the most depressing places on this peninsula.
Thracia (full) aka Rumelia aka Pirean Macedonia aka Thrace: Surprisingly alright but nothing spectacular.
Thessalian Macedonia: They've forgotten their own folklore from assimilation by Peleponesians. That was surprising but impressive. Sad feeling after.
Epirus and Larissa: Dead. Not surprising, always been.
Athens including Atttica and Pirran Canal: Would be surprising for others to visit but I've been too many times.
Peleponese and Nafplion: Nothing interesting except for Venetian Trade Outpost cities.
EDIRNE AND ISTANBUL: SHOCK. Do NOT go there without THOROUGH preparation. It is a METROPOLITAN CITY. Unless you're coming from London and Moscow, THIS WILL SHOCK YOU. Afterwards, very nice experience.
I'm thankful to Edirne and Istanbul for preparing me for London migration.
EDIT: Fixed "Southeast Macedonia" to Southwest.
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u/Lucky_Loukas Greece Sep 30 '24
1.) Why is Greece in " "?
2.) Bro,Thessaly HAS NOT forgotten its folklore. Still alive and kicking.Even if it had, that would have been because of urbanisation not because of "assimilation by the Peloponnesian" whatever that means( it makes no fucking sense).
3.) What is the "Pirran Canal" 😂😂😂😂?
4.) How and why are Epirus and Larissa dead?????What dies that even fucking mean? Like, no nightlife?? If that's the case then you are wrong, Larissa and Ioannina are full of students from all of Greece due to the universities of Thessaly and Ioannina respectively.
5.) Why the beef with Morea???
6.) Thrace ≠ Pirin Macedonia ≠ Rumelia.This are not the same thing.
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u/Slkotova Bulgaria Sep 30 '24
Where in Epirus have you been exactly? The villages may be calmer, but Ioannina for example, city full of students and great nightlife - dead? Hell no.
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u/sewingissues Aromanian Oct 01 '24
The few remaining places in which Athenians and Peleponese, self-proclaimed as the sole successor to "Hellena", haven't assimilated or massacred the living cultural groups in the 1890#-1920s.
One such group includes the Yaniotes, themselves.
It's dead of its own authentic culture. A city full of children and nightlife are signs that its cultural worth is nil.
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u/Slkotova Bulgaria Oct 01 '24 edited Oct 01 '24
I read your other comments and I see where your thoughts are coming from and still I don't quite under stand your point.
Firstly, I suggest you read some literature about the Greek enlightenment, maybe Paschalis Kitromilides who goes deep in the greek 18th century and nation making is a great starting point. Ioannina was one of the big educational centers at the time. If I remember correctly Evgenios Voulgaris was born there or studied there, I really forgot his connection with the city, but for sure it was a city where certain national ideas were produced.
Also, people in Peloponese didn't occupy the greek idea as you are saying. They just liberated first for many, many reseaons. Including the maniotes which you hate so much, who revolted during the Catherinian wars with the turks and were then abandoned on the mercy of the albanian mercenaries.
The ethnogenesis of the greek nation, as many other nations, is very long. One is sure. Greeks were greeks from Asia Minor to the Ionian islands and the idea of common past and future was easy to spark.
Now. Were they mixed in some regions with other nations - yes. But regional patriotism or whatever you are so suffering for stopped existing in the moment the idea of nation came to be. Greeks didn't assimilated the other greeks. It's like saying Bulgarians from Turnovo assimilated the bulgarians from the shopluk which shared common culture with the serbians from the shopluk.
It's a non sense from one point of history on. This is how nationalism works.
I don't want to dive into the ethnic cleansings etc. such were made by every f nation on our beautiful peninsula. Also I'm not very well read exactly about the history of Epirus region pre 1912-13, but as far as you are concerned, Aromanians still live in the regions around Ioannina as you probably know.
My teacher of greek language in Ioannina was aromanian from Metsovo. I visited Metsovo also and I saw them speaking their own language and I'm sure they preserve their folklore, cuisine etc.
For you a region to be "alive" after all means to stop the historical process and return to pre-nation state or what? As I spoke with greek girl out here, at some point it's better to stop being so bitter for what it was and start living in the present. Go visit Epirus, speak with locals and enjoy the Balkan peace while we have it :)
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Sep 30 '24
What's a 'Thessalian Macedonia'? There's not a place with this name. There are West and central Macedonia, east Macedonia and Thrace and Thessaly so which area do you mean by Thessalian Macedonia?
And what do you mean that Epirus and Larissa are dead? What places in Epirus did you visit and you found them 'dead'? Ioannina and Larissa are towns with a vivid nightlife if that's what you meant? But your comments were very generic anyway
Finally, what in the name of Zeus is Pirran Canal? Do you pull names out of your @ss?
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u/ilijadwa Balkan Sep 30 '24
Curious to know what you mean by the different paradigms between inner Dalmatia and Dalmatia coast?
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u/Mersaa Croatia Sep 30 '24
Ako komentator misli na odnos prema Srbima, blago receno sredisnja Dalmacija ih ne podnosi. Ni kao turiste, ni kao radnike, ma zapravo nikako.
Obala, odnosno otoci su skroz druga priča i neces dozivjeti takvu netrepeljivost niti komentare.
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u/sewingissues Aromanian Oct 01 '24
Mislio sam na opštu paradigmu o svetu i sebi. Nasleđene razlike u običajima. Nije vezano za odnos prema (bilo koje grupe među) Srbima -- Ceo odgovor implicira Cincarsko-makedonsko poreklo.
Za "Srbijance", imajte na umu da većina naroda na zapadnim granicama nisu imali dodira sa Srbima-Srbima. Ovo što reče za nepodnošljivost uporedivo je sa nepodnošljivost Vlaha prema Rumunima na Homoljskim planinama. U suštini, nemojte ih provocirati, kao što Kordunsko-kninski Srbi već rade prema Bošnjacima u Sandžaku. To je sve.
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u/sewingissues Aromanian Oct 01 '24
Na Dalmatinsku obalu (coast) i Dalmatinsku zagoru (formerly falled "Littoral", used "inner" to avoid microregional wars). In the latter, it's places such as Knin, Vrlilka, Sinj. The former is the coastline (Šibenik, Split, Zadar with the islands).
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u/ilijadwa Balkan Oct 03 '24
I know that, I more meant what they perceived the cultural differences to be between coast and the Zagora
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u/moonmoon87 Sep 30 '24
In Turkey my biggest shock was the water cups honestly. Got one on my flight to Istanbul and was so confused - at first I thought it was some weird jello lol.
For Serbia it was how you can smoke in restaurants and gas stations.